Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25): Although he was lying ... government can not increase competition and that is not what the Dems want.

When the congressman yelled it was when Obama was talking about illegal immigrants, not the public option.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 47): You live in Canada or ever been there? I know 3 people and two of them have waited 6 weeks and 2 and a half months. I got facts buddy. So do the Dems who won't vote for it.

You have anecdotal evidence. I have been to Canada, have family in Canada, and I have lived in Australia (which has socialized medicine). None of my famiily in Canada (including someone who is very sick) has had any issue with health care and I had no issues with health care in Australia (despite various injuries). Again, anecdotal and without context but jus as solid as your "facts."

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 50): You have anecdotal evidence. I have been to Canada, have family in Canada, and I have lived in Australia (which has socialized medicine). None of my famiily in Canada (including someone who is very sick) has had any issue with health care and I had no issues with health care in Australia (despite various injuries). Again, anecdotal and without context but jus as solid as your "facts."

You ask 20 people you will get 20 stories but the facts remain that this system will never work in America. It is why we don't have it, why it didn't pass in Bubba's presidency and will go down here. We are not a country who wants to pay 40% of what we make in taxes so everyone can have health care. What is worse is that we elected a congress who believes we can and will do whatever it takes (including destroying their own political careers) to do so. Instead of doing the smart thing like giving businesses tax breaks and holidays so they can offer health care to their employees and other sound tactics they want to prove they have the power since they have the majority in congress. Well with this bill they don't because their own people see it for what it is. A mess and a loser. Obama could save health care and his career by taking a step back and starting over without the nose in the air elitism that is Nancy Pelosi but he choose to keep fighting a losing battle and putting this country further into a Jummy Carter hole. Well played.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 51): You ask 20 people you will get 20 stories but the facts remain that this system will never work in America.

You, and other have said this, but I have yet to see a peer reviewed study that comes to this conclusion. Is it actually a fact, or an opinion on your part, and the part of others? If you, or anyone has a study that looks at various health care reforms and comes to the conclusion that it will not work in the United States, I would love to read it. Until then, I will consider this an opinion and I will continue with my opinion that we can have health care reform similar to what the president claims, even though I still think there can be some tweaking done on it.

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 52): Until then, I will consider this an opinion and I will continue with my opinion that we can have health care reform similar to what the president claims, even though I still think there can be some tweaking done on it.

Ok then call those 40 center Dems that have told the president they will not vote for it in it's present form which includes the tax hikes and public option and tell them it could work because they seem to disagree with you as does much of the country. We can start a thread in a year and see where we are on this but I have the feeling we won't have a Canadian like system.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26): A proper federal standard would make state standards redundant. That's the whole point.

I agree. My point was that I don't want to see something like what goes on with driver's licenses - one state has to accept a license from another state, even though the standards for getting the license may be different. Obviously, health care is nowhere near analogous to driver's licenses - that's just for sake of example.

If allowing companies to sell insurance across state lines is accompanied by sensible, pro-consumer federal standards on what they can and can't do, I have no problem with it.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 42): That's great, however the problem is that in many cases waiting 36 hours might be the difference between life and death. Perhaps Doc Lightning can speak to this point - how often do "precautionary" MRI or CT scans reveal something that - left untreated for 36 hours - may have been fatal?

I'm not a doctor, but I'd be willing to bet that those cases are extremely rare.

-Mir

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38): Preventative healthcare saves a lot of money.

That is actually addressing two different points. Where it comes to the uninsured, President Obama was specific in saying that everyone must have insurance because someone uninsured ends up costing all those who have insurance more. My question is, how does that differ from someone who pays no tax and yet receives government health care? Do they not cost the insured money since they are not "chipping in" as the President put it? As to preventitive care, CBO has shown that prevenitive care costs more than it saves since you are testing far more people than will ever have a chance of coming down with any certain disease. Wouldn't you agree that targeting the high risk person makes more sense than testing the person who has no family history or personal history of any disease?

Quoting WestWing (Reply 39): Please explain what you think is going to happen on day thousand that will at that time prevent you from keeping the insurance and doctor that you have.

If HR 3200 is the working bill that he is operating under, and he didn't say he was willing to toss that out and start over, then section 102, starting on page 16 of the bill, has to go. It specifically states that at Y5 the governement will decide what is a legitmate insurance and all policies will have to meet that minimum. It also states that prices will be fixed.

Quoting WestWing (Reply 39): Was this something he said or implied with respect to the GOP position on health care? A citation would help.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...n-Edward-M-Kennedy-and-Max-Baucus/

These are some of the issues I look forward to discussing with you in greater detail in the weeks and months ahead. But this year, we must do more than discuss. We must act. The American people and America's future demand it.

I know that you have reached out to Republican colleagues, as I have, and that you have worked hard to reach a bipartisan consensus about many of these issues. I remain hopeful that many Republicans will join us in enacting this historic legislation that will lower health care costs for families, businesses, and governments, and improve the lives of millions of Americans. So, I appreciate your efforts, and look forward to working with you so that the Congress can complete health care reform by October.

The summary? I know you are trying to get bipartianship but regardless of how the GOP feels, we are going foreward with them or without them.

Quoting WestWing (Reply 39): Does it not seem reasonable to focus on other avenues that may contribute savings of greater than 0.5% instead of on tort reform?

http://www2.arkansasonline.com/news/...bamas-health-care-speech-congress/

And if we are able to slow the growth of health care costs by just one-tenth of one percent each year, it will actually reduce the deficit by $4 trillion over the long term.

If he is touting saving one tenth of one percent, why not also tout saving half a percent?


Additionally, if your read that entire letter, you can see most of last nights speech. So what was new last night? The letter is dated in June. Part of the problem I had with last nights speech was that it was still short on specifics. There was little hard fact on how it was going to be paid for. Just "we can save some here and save some there". Show us exactly where these savings are. He should have come armed with specifics and instead he came armed with rhetoric. Talking down to people as he did last night also didn't win a lot of friends.

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 50): When the congressman yelled it was when Obama was talking about illegal immigrants, not the public option.

Thanks , yes he was not lying about that . The Dems want the illegals bad .... they will cover them in the end simply by granting amnesty. I believe that is what this is about ... They want the votes ,granting amnesty and giving "free" health-care should tidy it up nicely .

Quoting DXing (Reply 55): Wouldn't you agree that targeting the high risk person makes more sense than testing the person who has no family history or personal history of any disease?

Advocating preventive care is not necessarily the same as advocating testing everyone for the sake of testing everyone. The point is that if your doctor thinks you need a bronchoscopy because you have a cough that won't go away, your insurance will cover it, so that you don't find out that it's something very serious later on.

Basically, it's about doctors making the decisions about what their patients should do, rather than the insurance companies. This goes hand in hand with liability reform, so that doctors don't feel compelled to order tests that aren't necessary for CYA purposes.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 56): The Dems want the illegals bad .... they will cover them in the end simply by granting amnesty. I believe that is what this is about ... They want the votes ,granting amnesty and giving "free" health-care should tidy it up nicely .

Illegal immigrants won't be able to get free health care. Under the plan, they'd be able to buy it at the same rates as everyone else if they want to.

-Mir

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 47): You live in Canada or ever been there? I know 3 people and two of them have waited 6 weeks and 2 and a half months. I got facts buddy. So do the Dems who won't vote for it.

This is getting really, really tiresome and it is totally warping the debate on health care reform in the US. The level of misinformation and gross exaggeration used to describe our system, based always on anecdotal evidence, is disgraceful. For every anecdotal screw-up you can find here, I'll bet you can find 20 in the US. For every Canadian who travels south to get something done more quickly, you can probably find 20 Americans who also leave the country for the same reason. A million Californians go to Mexico for treatments every year because they are much much cheaper.

Does our system have to be perfect before it gets any respect down there? If so, I suggest you devote all your efforts to making your own system perfect, then you can have a go at ours. In the meantime, you have to come to terms with the basic, unchallengeable fact that our "imperfect" system delivers better medical outcomes at about half the cost of yours. And you slag "socialized" systems for being costly and inefficient???

I have benefitted tremendously from our system, and I'm sick "buddy"; I never wait more than a week for any diagnostic tests and often get them the same day. I once went to emergency because I thought I was having heart issues (I wasn't fortunately) and I was run through a battery of diagnostic tests in the space of about three hours.

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 50): You have anecdotal evidence. I have been to Canada, have family in Canada, and I have lived in Australia (which has socialized medicine). None of my famiily in Canada (including someone who is very sick) has had any issue with health care and I had no issues with health care in Australia (despite various injuries). Again, anecdotal and without context but jus as solid as your "facts."

MUWarriors -- , I appreciate your comments, but you're wasting your time. This is a knife fight with right wing ideologues determined to avoid at all costs any rational discussion of how to move towards a health care system that provides cost-effective universal coverage. They would rather demonize the rest of the world than deal with this reality: the US is the only developed country in the world that doesn't provide universal health care to its citizens; and its per capita health care costs are nearly double everyone else. How the right manages to spin this into "socialized medicine will bankrupt us" is beyond me.

Baroque is right. The rest of us don't know whether to laugh or cry at the catastrophic bumbling going on down there. Americans deserve much better than this from their politicians, but I fear you will not get it anytime soon.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 58): Does our system have to be perfect before it gets any respect down there? If so, I suggest you devote all your efforts to making your own system perfect, then you can have a go at ours. In the meantime, you have to come to terms with the basic, unchallengeable fact that our "imperfect" system delivers better medical outcomes at about half the cost of yours. And you slag "socialized" systems for being costly and inefficient???

Fair comment. The discussion I heard had in additon to David Frum
Resident Fellow of the American Enterprise Institute; founder of NewMajority.com (he of the axis of Evil fame, so a fair rep of the R wing) Wendell Potter
Former Head of Corporate Communications at Cigna, one of the largest health insurance companies in America. He is a bit of a poacher turned gamekeeper, except that the phrase might have to be turned around the other way before our R wing friends understand. Whatever, he commented (and Frum was more or less struck dumb as I recall) that those who think that State involvement involve bureaucrats seem to forget that the insurance industry has pretty much sewn up the awful bureaucracy contest. To use a phrase from John Clarke (aka Fred Dagg) with laugh lines around their pockets they are home and hosed to the semis in the world's most awful bureaucracy contest.

Podcast of the discussion at:
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2009/2679944.htm
Surrounding the current healthcare reform debate in Washington have been violent town hall meetings, misleading statements about what might happen if reform goes through, and comparisons between Barack Obama and Adolph Hitler. What's going on?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 58): The rest of us don't know whether to laugh or cry at the catastrophic bumbling going on down there. Americans deserve much better than this from their politicians, but I fear you will not get it anytime soon.

I guess in Aus we are lucky Arrow, because being further away, we get fewer comparisons, and Ken777 is usually kind to us too!! But (probably like you) we do have a bit of a dog in the fight, because when our system has been degraded, it has usually been by reference to and then adopting bits of the US system. Lord preserve us!!!

What is really difficult to work out for me is, if you are not a shareholder in private medicine and most likely an insurance company, how does opposition to the proposals benefit the opponents. It is bleeding obvious that most countries can run a much cheaper and just as effective a system with state involvement. So what is the plan, costly and ineffective, devil take the sick. Even in Victorian England, that was becoming an unfashionable view. I sometimes think that the US would have been better to delay its war of Independence by about 150 years!!! At least they would have had a gallon the correct size!!!

Quoting Baroque (Reply 59): David Frum Resident Fellow of the American Enterprise Institute; founder of NewMajority.com (he of the axis of Evil fame, so a fair rep of the R wing)

He is no longer of sound right-wing credentials since shouting down the mighty Rush Limbaugh!  

A man who is aggressive and bombastic, cutting and sarcastic, who dismisses the concerned citizens in network news focus groups as "losers." With his private plane and his cigars, his history of drug dependency and his personal bulk, not to mention his tangled marital history, Rush is a walking stereotype of self-indulgence—exactly the image that Barack Obama most wants to affix to our philosophy and our party. And we're cooperating!

http://www.newsweek.com/id/188279

Quoting Baroque (Reply 59): Whatever, he commented (and Frum was more or less struck dumb as I recall) that those who think that State involvement involve bureaucrats seem to forget that the insurance industry has pretty much sewn up the awful bureaucracy contest.

A bit of irony here: David Frum is a Canadian, and son of (the late) Barbara Frum, a much respected CBC talk show hostess. She's probably spinning in her grave over her son's right wing tendencies -- truth be known, David Frum is considered to be far right in Canada, probably closet communist in the US.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 59): But (probably like you) we do have a bit of a dog in the fight, because when our system has been degraded, it has usually been by reference to and then adopting bits of the US system. Lord preserve us!!!

I made use of the Aus. system years ago when I ate a chunk of bad chicken in Cairns and thought I was going to die. They took me in at emergency, put me in a bed, held off on all the blood tests to see if I would upchuck my way out of trouble (which I did), and turfed me out three hours later with a bill for $50 -- which I cheerfully paid. On my way out, the doc asked me where I bought the chicken.

The key here for all of us, I believe, is that we've got to make the best compromises between public and private to presumably continue with the best and most cost-effective care. Ideological strait jackets (as witnessed in the debate to the south) will stymie that every time.

I just wish they would stop misrepresenting our system. God knows it has flaws and needs fixing in places -- but it's light years better than what passes for health care down there.

Quoting Mir (Reply 57): Advocating preventive care is not necessarily the same as advocating testing everyone for the sake of testing everyone.

From his speech:

http://www2.arkansasonline.com/news/...bamas-health-care-speech-congress/

"And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies – because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives."

Notice the highlighted points. No extra charge. So what is to stop someone or their doctor from saying, get one, it doesn't cost you anything? That does not promote responsible health care and is what the CBO is getting at.

Quoting Mir (Reply 57): This goes hand in hand with liability reform, so that doctors don't feel compelled to order tests that aren't necessary for CYA purposes.

Which got tossed out of any consideration as part of a health care bill last night. From the same web link as above as are the quotes farther below:

"Finally, many in this chamber – particularly on the Republican side of the aisle – have long insisted that reforming our medical malpractice laws can help bring down the cost of health care. I don't believe malpractice reform is a silver bullet, but I have talked to enough doctors to know that defensive medicine may be contributing to unnecessary costs. So I am proposing that we move forward on a range of ideas about how to put patient safety first and let doctors focus on practicing medicine. I know that the Bush Administration considered authorizing demonstration projects in individual states to test these issues. It's a good idea, and I am directing my Secretary of Health and Human Services to move forward on this initiative today."

So not part of a bill but an idea that will languish on some bureaurcrats desk.


"This is the plan I'm proposing. It's a plan that incorporates ideas from many of the people in this room tonight – Democrats and Republicans."

What Republicans? Republicans sought to at least make a person prove they are a citizen before they are allowed to buy cheap government insurance and guess what, the democratic leadership in the House shot it down on a party line vote. What is wrong with that simple suggestion? Yet he didn't mention that.

As to Congressman Wilson calling out "You lie!", the President did pretty much the same exact thing several times in his speech. Just one example:


"But know this: I will not waste time with those who have made the calculation that it's better politics to kill this plan than improve it. I will not stand by while the special interests use the same old tactics to keep things exactly the way they are. If you misrepresent what's in the plan, we will call you out. And I will not accept the status quo as a solution. Not this time. Not now."

So in effect it is ok for him to call out persons he does not agree with but not anyone else? Sorry, doesn't work that way. Wilson's shout may have been poorly timed but does not change the fact that what he said is essentially true on that matter. As to special interests, looks like the trial lawyers got their fix in last night.

This is the same old used car he's been selling since before he took office. Still has sawdust in the transmission and a Earl Schive paint job to cover up the rust.

Quoting Mir (Reply 57): Illegal immigrants won't be able to get free health care. Under the plan, they'd be able to buy it at the same rates as everyone else if they want to.

Agreed , I have read the bill ( as much as I could without shooting myself) . They are counting on amnesty . They are right , they wont cover illegals ...because there wont be any illegals.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 58): This is a knife fight with right wing ideologues determined to avoid at all costs any rational discussion of how to move towards a health care system that provides cost-effective universal coverage

So the left-wing "elected" officials who have called us Nazi's , Idiots , Rebels , White well dressed racists , fanatics , Timothy McVea types , Right wing terrorist , extremists ..... showed up at the "knife fight " with candy and chocolates?  

The lesson to be learned here is that this is all simply fall out from the path chosen by LBJ and the "great society" movement. They started medicare and medicaid ....and the programs are fragile at best ... so the procession is too take over even more. They start the programs ..the programs fail ... then they ride in to save the day with a even bigger program. Governemnt will never stop its effort to increase its power and hold over us ... it is not that hard to figure out.

Quoting DXing (Reply 62): So what is to stop someone or their doctor from saying, get one, it doesn't cost you anything? That does not promote responsible health care and is what the CBO is getting at.

He was referring to groups for whom those procedures are indicated, not any Joe Blow who says he wants some test that's unnecessary. Some insurers still don't cover screening colonoscopies for people > 50 years old, even though colon cancer screening is recommended for anyone between 50 and about 75 currently. You simply don't know enough about Medicine or preventive Medicine to make the judgement you've made.

Preventive medicine done correctly does NOT drive up the cost of health care. A preventive test is not recommended by ANY medical group (with the possible exception of the PSA), unless the calculation of dollars spent per diagnosis made/ life saved is at an acceptable level. If the CBO says otherwise, they're looking at the data incorrectly.

The final straw--you defending Joe Wilson. He's a complete jerk, and is the epitome of everything that's wrong with the Republican party these days. Belligerent, unyieldingly ideologically right wing. Your defending him confirms that you are frankly just not worth listening to, because you cannot rationally defend Wilson without putting yourself in the same rank.

I would never, ever, ever, ever, trade my health care for American style health care!! Some of the lies I've seen thrown about are simply laughable to me. For every NIKV69 "I know a guy and he said" story I read, I know thousands of people who like me, love our system. It has helped my family through some really tough times over the decades. Good luck America, I hope you change for the better.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 64): The final straw--you defending Joe Wilson. He's a complete jerk, and is the epitome of everything that's wrong with the Republican party these days. Belligerent, unyieldingly ideologically right wing. Your defending him confirms that you are frankly just not worth listening to, because you cannot rationally defend Wilson without putting yourself in the same rank.

Hold it right there.

As you can see above I was one of the first to denounce Wilson's outburst. But you are taking things way too far. Don't equate someone's rudeness with the validity of their ideas. Republicans have been shoved to the side by the Democrats over the past 9 months, have been lied about and blamed for all the trouble in the world - never mind who actually controlled Congress when the budget started spiralling upwards again and things started to melt down due to programs pushed by You-Know-Who, and frankly I understand how Wilson felt. Republicans have proposed 800 bills and amendments over the past 9 months in the House, and as close as I can recall, not a single one has made it past the Dems, who seem to take a perverse pleasure in turning down anything if it comes from a Republican, no matter how constructive or valid the issue.

So get a hold on your prejudice and arrogance.

Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 52): You, and other have said this, but I have yet to see a peer reviewed study that comes to this conclusion. Is it actually a fact, or an opinion on your part, and the part of others? If you, or anyone has a study that looks at various health care reforms and comes to the conclusion that it will not work in the United States, I would love to read it. Until then, I will consider this an opinion and I will continue with my opinion that we can have health care reform similar to what the president claims, even though I still think there can be some tweaking done on it.

I'd strongly suggest you look into the state of Healthcare in Massachusetts, the only state currently with near universal healthcare. That will show you the reality instead of political spin. Higher premiums, higher taxes, and higher deficits.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 58): the US is the only developed country in the world that doesn't provide universal health care to its citizens; and its per capita health care costs are nearly double everyone else. How the right manages to spin this into "socialized medicine will bankrupt us" is beyond me.

What's your point? Do you have any numbers to back up your assertion people flock to other countries to get treatment? A quick check of Wikipedia refutes your notion:

"Although much attention has been given to the growing trend of uninsured Americans traveling to foreign countries, a report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[55] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care. Also, it has been noted that the decline in value of the U.S. dollar is offering additional incentive for foreign travel to the U.S. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States

Have you noted the state of healthcare in those countries? The French system which is the top rated one, struggles under massive deficits. The French government has their hands full trying to contain costs:

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE5863CN20090907


The NHS problems are well known, and as someone who is a British citizen and has four practicing doctors in the family there I know the deal there. Google and see why they have the lowest cancer survival rates in the West.

Regarding Canada, a quote from a recent poll of Canadian doctors is telling:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...need-to-fix-system/article1255045/

"An overwhelming 83 per cent of doctors believe there is an “urgent” need to fix Canada's health-care system, but they are split on whether a fundamental transformation is required, or if necessary improvements can be made by tinkering with the current system."

There are numerous more watchdog articles on every system, the US included. You are going to find problems everywhere. Read studies on the uninsured by the Kaiser Family Institute and US Census and you will be surprised. Even Obama has lowered the number of uninsured to 30 Million to account for people who refuse to buy insurance but can.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/op...--Now-its-30-million-58237842.html

Regarding Cost:

You also ignore the actual realities of the US healthcare system: Yes it is expensive but it is responsible for a majority of critical healthcare innovation:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/business/05scene.html?_r=2

Key part of the article:

"In real terms, spending on American biomedical research has doubled since 1994. By 2003, spending was up to $94.3 billion (there is no comparable number for Europe), with 57 percent of that coming from private industry. The National Institutes of Health’s current annual research budget is $28 billion, All European Union governments, in contrast, spent $3.7 billion in 2000, and since that time, Europe has not narrowed the research and development gap. America spends more on research and development over all and on drugs in particular, even though the United States has a smaller population than the core European Union countries. From 1989 to 2002, four times as much money was invested in private biotechnology companies in America than in Europe."

All that innovation is expensive especially when we as a country spend ten times what the EU does on research. And it's no miracle all the recent advances in cancer have come from the United States.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 60): Quoting Baroque (Reply 59): David Frum Resident Fellow of the American Enterprise Institute; founder of NewMajority.com (he of the axis of Evil fame, so a fair rep of the R wing) He is no longer of sound right-wing credentials since shouting down the mighty Rush Limbaugh!

Ooops. Oh how naughty is that!!    Still he can claim to have had a part in starting one war.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 61): A bit of irony here: David Frum is a Canadian, and son of (the late) Barbara Frum, a much respected CBC talk show hostess. She's probably spinning in her grave over her son's right wing tendencies -- truth be known, David Frum is considered to be far right in Canada, probably closet communist in the US.

Double ooops or is it a triple with the closet Commie affinities. Then again, most of the neo cons were communist or near communist at an earlier stage.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 67): And it's no miracle all the recent advances in cancer have come from the United States.

All??? You might want to check that. Where were VLPs developed first, not second?

I would have thought that the US already had a number of death panels, the most prolific one in terms of deaths being composed of those who oppose reform of the health system.   

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66): Republicans have been shoved to the side by the Democrats over the past 9 months,

This is just not true. It's the unyieldingly ideological Republicans, a very high percentage of whom are unwilling to compromise on anything, who have shut themselves out.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66): things started to melt down due to programs pushed by You-Know-Who,

You mean the deregulation pushed by Phil Gramm, et. al., which really led to the meltdown? Don't try to blame that on Clinton or, even more ridiculously, Carter.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66): I understand how Wilson felt

That doesn't excuse his behavior or Dx's defense of it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66): the Dems, who seem to take a perverse pleasure in turning down anything if it comes from a Republican, no matter how constructive or valid the issue.

Not nearly as much pleasure as the Joe Wilson/Sarah Palin wing of the Republican party seems to take in lying and trying to demonize every single move Obama makes. Note the back to school address non-issue that Republicans tried to turn into an "indoctrination conspiracy". Don't even mention the dropped "write down how you can help the President" lesson plan, since George H W Bush did exactly the same thing when he was President.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66): So get a hold on your prejudice and arrogance

If I'm arrogant, it's certainly no more than DX, who constantly accuses anyone who disagrees with him of lacking personal responsibility. If I'm prejudiced, it's certainly less than those who refuse to recognize the validity of much of what Obama said last night.

Joe Wilson, and Sarah Palin for that matter, ARE the epitome of what's wrong with the Republican party today. I say that as someone who voted for Reagan twice and George H W Bush the first time around. The party changed drastically in the early 90's due to the influence of Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell, and got even worse with Newt Gingrich's influence. It hasn't shown much sign of improvement since, and it won't until the Joe Wilsons leave or are defeated by others who may be conservative, but have a willlingness and ability to work with Democrats and compromise, rather than lie and claim they're being ignored when the real problem is that they shut themselves out by being unwilling to compromise. Gingrich strongly encouraged NO compromise to the class of '94, and the attitude is pervasive among most Republicans in Congress today.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 68): Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 67): And it's no miracle all the recent advances in cancer have come from the United States. All??? You might want to check that. Where were VLPs developed first, not second? I would have thought that the US already had a number of death panels, the most prolific one in terms of deaths being composed of those who oppose reform of the health system. cry

According to this article VLP development is much contested:

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/98/7/433

"If you ask patent offices, the answer is anything but simple. The U.S. Patent Office recognized four claimants to the basic technology—the National Cancer Institute, Georgetown, Queensland, and Rochester. After a 10-year "interference" to adjudicate the overlapping claims, Georgetown won the dominant patent for its contribution to the "background science." Ironically, of the four, Georgetown was the only one not to have developed VLPs."

Again all this drama about reform is just plain stupid. People seriously need to read about the uninsured in the US before they start flapping their mouth about the evils of capitalism.

The Kaiser Family Institute and the US Census have done numerous studies on the uninsured in the United States. People seem to ignore programs like SCHIP, Medicaid, and numerous state programs that also provide care. That's why Obama cited only 30 Million without "adequate access" to healthcare instead of the standard 46 million number. The Kaiser Family Institute also estimates the following:

"Liberal non-profit Kaiser Family Foundation put the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 8.2 million and 13.9 million. (The 8.2 million figure includes only those uninsured for two years or more.)"

Also confirmed by the US Census Report:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

I think the part on healthcare starts on Page 30 or so.

Also read on the satisfaction rates the US consumers have with their respective choice of healthcare:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...lth-care-americans-happy-coverage/

By no means is this is perfect system. But it's also not that bad either.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 70): Also read on the satisfaction rates the US consumers have with their respective choice of healthcare:

This is the stupidest measure. If you have it, I'm sure your happy!

Hell i have insurance and i am extremely happy my insurance. You know why? because I am very lucky and thankful that i only use it once a year when i have my yearly checkup.

Its like asking someone on a smooth flight across the pacific if they are happy with the design of the life rafts.

So chalk me up to the "i am happy with my insurance" column - that doesn't not detract from support from a plan (similar) as presented by The President.

[Edited 2009-09-10 11:52:28]

[Edited 2009-09-10 12:08:19]

-Medicare -fragile .. with fed tax receipts falling ... excepts a huge deficit and cuts
-SCHIP- Required a budget expansion ..again, and is now being cut.
-MEDICAID-$150 billion Deficit and growing
-Unemployment insurance ... crashing , required extension ..bankrupt in months
-Fannie Mae .. costs us 300 billion to bail out still broke
-FreddieMac.. costs us 278 billion to bail out still broke
-All State health programs are being cut ... all of them are under water.
-Education ... bloated and running deficits every year. We spend more, and education goes down.
-AMTRACK - broke always near bankrupt
-Post Office - always needs more money , does a decent job but spends 10 times what they should.
The Freaking Fed itself is 13T in debt ??

Ya , I do not trust government programs . Just because we have them don't mean we need them. Why do so many trust in the government ? What is it .,?

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 70): "If you ask patent offices, the answer is anything but simple. The U.S. Patent Office recognized four claimants to the basic technology---the National Cancer Institute, Georgetown, Queensland, and Rochester. After a 10-year "interference" to adjudicate the overlapping claims, Georgetown won the dominant patent for its contribution to the "background science." Ironically, of the four, Georgetown was the only one not to have developed VLPs."

I did not say it was simple, I just dispute the word ALL.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 72): Why do so many trust in the government ?

Perhaps I should found the
"She'll be right
Fly by night
Insurance company"

I should be able to sell policies to a number of potentially happy campers on this thread. And sell them at a price that as Benny Hill famously remarked, "It is a popular price with me". That was a holiday for about 300 pounds a day at Bognor!!

[Edited 2009-09-10 12:10:09]

Quoting Dvk (Reply 69): This is just not true. It's the unyieldingly ideological Republicans, a very high percentage of whom are unwilling to compromise on anything, who have shut themselves out.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 69): Not nearly as much pleasure as the Joe Wilson/Sarah Palin wing of the Republican party seems to take in lying and trying to demonize every single move Obama makes.

Wow, you are turning red...

Quoting Baroque (Reply 73): should be able to sell policies to a number of potentially happy campers on this thread. And sell them at a price that as Benny Hill famously remarked, "It is a popular price with me". That was a holiday for about 300 pounds a day at Bognor!!

We have federal oversight of insurance companies ... and the laws could be revamped and changed as the President alluded too last night. But that is not the objective ... the objective is a single payer system ... and a flat line economy with no rich people and no opportunity to break out of where they want us too be. They the love the "middle class" ..because that is where they want everyone too be ... not the bold adventuress and risk taking people that have made America what it is.

Risk takers and achiever's are the natural enemy of the Intelctualistas form which they come. If someone is rich ...they have taken it from someone who is poor ..that's the message . Well last time I checked a poor person has never given me a job .

Love this spurred outrage the Democrats are having today about the "liar" comment last night.... Hanity is playing a collage of audio from the democrats over the Bush admin years ... unbelievable .. they sound like a cat with electrodes attached to its sack. They really are like spoiled little brats .. Harry Reid .... Love it.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 71): Hell i have insurance and i am extremely happy my insurance

Extremist .... ya that's right you hate and want to kill poor people . 

I am with you on this one ... I like my insurance good enough . I like being able to call them up and deal with them make changes or ... fire them and find a new one. Its called freedom ... free to do it your own way .

Quoting Arrow (Reply 58): This is a knife fight with right wing ideologues determined to avoid at all costs any rational discussion of how to move towards a health care system that provides cost-effective universal coverage. They would rather demonize the rest of the world than deal with this reality: the US is the only developed country in the world that doesn't provide universal health care to its citizens; and its per capita health care costs are nearly double everyone else. How the right manages to spin this into "socialized medicine will bankrupt us" is beyond me.

Thanks for putting this in a nutshell!

The recent developments have made the Conservatives like the famous "boy in the plastic bubble". They can't live in a world contaminated by reality any longer, so they carry on in their small sad bubble dreaming about all the money they would be making only if that offensive reality would go away. Like the boy in the real life, the Conservatives will ultimately need to come out to the world -- and that was and will be the very sad part of the story.

Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 67): What's your point? Do you have any numbers to back up your assertion people flock to other countries to get treatment? A quick check of Wikipedia refutes your notion:

I've always said Wikipedia can be a poor source. Try some of these:

Mexico's Health Care Lures Americans

http://www.news10.net/life/health/story.aspx?storyid=66156

About one million adults living in California, including 500,000 immigrants, travel to Mexico for health care each year, according to a study published Tuesday in the journal Medical Care, the San Diego Union-Tribune reports.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/200...y-for-health-care-study-finds.aspx

As U.S. health row rages, many seek care in Mexico

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE57C40C20090814

The point is, the Right's big knock against Canada's system is that some Canadians travel south for treatment. Clearly, it's a two-way street. Would you like me to research some other countries? India, for example?

It's the blinkered hypocrisy in the debate that drives us nuts.

[Edited 2009-09-10 14:19:30]

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25): Every federal program is as least 30 % in deficit .... everyone ... so now tell me again how you are going to pay for it ?

Why didn't you ask that when Bush & Cheney were pushing to go into Iraq? Got us a multi-trillion dollar war and still haven't found the WMDs. But the Right is delighted to toss that deficit spending into the budget.

So now we took care of Sadam. Maybe it's about time we took care of our own.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24): I have no problem with a federal health insurance standard. What I don't want to see happen is for the barriers to be removed so that one state's standard can be used for another state with more stringent standards.

If we make it illegal to discriminate against applicants because of health conditions, make it illegal to refuse payment for treatments ordered by a doctor and made it illegal to have more than one charge for any plan level then I think we are heading in the right direction.

Now add the best practices and regulations from the states to maximize the quality of a national level private plan and we're probably in agreement. Let's make sure, however, that we don't use the state with the lowest standards.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29): With the funding the latest bills demand (2% to 8%, depending), there is no way in hell that the Public Option will be able to meet the expenses of the program, and will thus have to depend on subsidies from the federal budget.

That would be nothing new. People get treatments they can't pay for we all end up paying, directly or indirectly. Indirect payments via insurance companies simply add on a profit margin.

Quoting Okie (Reply 30): However, I do not see anywhere the Obamacare plan is going to yield you any better results on deductibles and payments to Doctors.

First look at core ongoing costs, like your insurance premiums. If you have a small company like I had you KNOW how screwed up and expensive that is. If you get your coverage from an employer then you might have notices how the budgeting is getting tighter and the employer less generous. With health insurance increasing three times faster than wages it's not going to be a pretty picture in the future unless there are major changes.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 32): Sorry Doc , the solution is to scare the insurance companies to death .. by opening up the market and driving costs down by more competition.

The insurance companies can't be scared into improving their coverage, or reducing their costs. They know they have their customers by the balls.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): Yet not a word about catastrophic insurance, similar to flood insurance, to be offered by the government.

OK, I'll throw that one in - let's have a half a percent tax on incomes over $250,000 and on all corporate income to provide catastrophic care, be it cancer, flooding or any other major problem. I'd go for that. You?

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): It has already been shown that preventive care as he envisions it, mamograms and other such tests, will actually raise the cost of health care because you are testing people that ordinarily would not be at risk.

No, you are treating people who currently not able to afford preventive tests until it is far more expensive to treat.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): So your freedom of choice is once again taken away by the government. As to the cost of someone not insured, someone who pays no tax and is on the governmetn insurance costs us just as much.

Let's look at freedom of choice. In Oklahoma bike riders wanted the "Freedom" to ride their bikes without a helmet. Others felt that the brain injuries encountered were costly enough to care for that helmets should be required.

I always felt that those who were willing to take the safe approach should have a different tag showing a helmet - and should have a lower cost. Those who wanted the freedom of not wearing a helmet should pay more for their tag so their health care, including care as a quad or a vegetative state was not paid for by the taxpayer. Have a "helmet tag" and cheat? Confiscate the bike.

Basically that is what Obama is saying to those who want to go without insurance. Want to go without protection - OK, but you're going to pay for that freedom so any care you need - especially from an accident - will not have to be paid by other taxpayers.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): Does not address the fact that the government carries the force of law and has a printing press and tax policy to beat the insurance companies over the head with.

Bush had no problem printing money for his Iraq oil, oooops WMD, quest.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): "No death panels." "Abortion spending."

Shouldn't be too hard for the Right to get provisions included that will make both illegal. McCain could probably have lunch with Obama and get that taken care of.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): "Choice and competition and a government plan."

Competition is what private insurance companies are most afraid of. They can compete, but they sure don't want to. The market is simply too rich to let competition in.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): "To my Republican friends we should work together."

The Right could give a flying fuck about health care for the poor or uninsured. Those folks don't fork up the big dollars in campaign contributions.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35): "Finding savings in the existing health care system already there in medicare and medicaid."

Try Medicare Advantage - a government financed private care plan that's far more expensive than Medicare. Cut that out and save billions.

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 43): She is not going to let that slide.

Neither will the voters in his District. Saw on the news today that the bum's opponent next year picked up $200,000 in donations last night. No wonder the bum is back peddling and apologizing all over the place.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 47): Bush didn't create the health care mess.

But he fiddled away while the mess rolled into a huge problem. But why not, he had his cake.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 47): I actually found his actions unacceptable but it does show how people are becoming upset with how the Dems are handling this mess and trying to sell a lemon to the American people. They will shout just as loud next November.

Turns out that the people he pretends to represent donated $200,000 to his opponent last night. Might turn out to be a million dollar blunder by the time it's all said & done.

Quoting Carlisle (Reply 48): King Obama and Princess Pelosi at their best.

Far, far better than Big George and Little Dick prancing us into the Iraq War.

Quoting Mir (Reply 54): I'm not a doctor, but I'd be willing to bet that those cases are extremely rare.

I think you would be surprised. My wife's acute leukemia was diagnosed by a routine blood test. during an ER visit for an unrelated problem. Might be able to cut costs by eliminating that test, but as we sadly learned it does find unexpected problems. Saved my wife's life as her type of leukemia generally kills within 4 months if not successfully treated.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 58): Baroque is right. The rest of us don't know whether to laugh or cry at the catastrophic bumbling going on down there. Americans deserve much better than this from their politicians, but I fear you will not get it anytime soon

You have to remember that the Hard Right looks at you like they do "Old Europe" and certainly don't expect that you can be smarter than they are. Greatest lesson I learned when serving in the Navy and "seeing the world" was that people in other countries can actually walk and chew gum at the same time.  

Quoting Baroque (Reply 59): I guess in Aus we are lucky Arrow, because being further away, we get fewer comparisons, and Ken777 is usually kind to us too!

Of course I'm nice to Aussies - I married one!

I can also remember when I was traveling to Australia 4 or 5 times a year. I bought private health insurance there for 2 reasons. First because it was so cheap (under $90 a month when I started) and second because my POS private policy here didn't cover me Down Under.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 59): It is bleeding obvious that most countries can run a much cheaper and just as effective a system with state involvement.

Of course they can. In the US it's about money and the huge amounts going to private insurance companies. Reducing costs and improving efficiency takes second place here.

[Edited 2009-09-10 15:10:06]

Quoting Arrow (Reply 78): Mexico's Health Care Lures Americans

It's obvious that people lining close enough to either Canada or Mexico have a real economic advantage in slipping across the border for prescriptions and simple procedures.

Even private insurance is getting on this band wagon, allowing their policy holders to have procedures done overseas as it saves everyone money.

I can see it now - a hard right conservative paying out the ass for expensive private insurance being told that his surgery isn't covered, unless he goes to a country with socialized medicine. I understand Italy is close to the top of desired locations. Would have liked that option for my vasectomy . . .  

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): Why didn't you ask that when Bush & Cheney were pushing to go into Iraq?

I don't mind paying taxes to get rid of Sadam types .... no problem money well spent.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): The insurance companies can't be scared into improving their coverage, or reducing their costs. They know they have their customers by the balls.

Every business is afraid of increased competition .... no matter how big they are. They do not have me by the balls .... the only one in this world who has me by the balls is the federal government. And thanks to you and your comrades there grip is about to get allot tighter.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45): A large part of the world is just simply shaking their collective heads in bemusement. I find myself torn between sympathy for those who suffer from a woeful system and "serves you damned well right" for those who oppose these sorts of change and then find themselves in a medical trap.

My feelings to a "T" The world laughs at us more and more, we look at the sulking Republicans while a President tries to even thing a little for the masses, and you just have to laugh yourself. These sulky guys are fat cats, co-towing to their fat cat handlers and afraid of losing the money, "show me the money" What is the Republican take on the example about two children with cancer and no health coverage? I am not talking someone wealthy either. I can not imagine the horror of it, the Republicans could not give a shit. Quite obvious to me. Those sulky guys do have fine medical plan to carry them through, not really worried about others.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): Turns out that the people he pretends to represent donated $200,000 to his opponent last night. Might turn out to be a million dollar blunder by the time it's all said & done.

Slight correction - the $200,000 isn't all from people he represents in his district, but from people all over the country. Ain't internet fundraising great?  

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 81): I don't mind paying taxes to get rid of Sadam types .... no problem money well spent.

Best guess is that long term costs will exceed $3 Trillion (Trillion with a "T"). Obviously a big chunk if that $3 TRILLION is taking care of Vets over their life. With the IEDs and rapid re-deployments we're probably giong to exceed the cost per Vet experienced from Vietnam.

Or do you support dropping tax based support for Vets?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 81): And thanks to you and your comrades

The only thing I had close to "comrades" was when I was serving in the Navy in the mid 60s. Some people in those days used the term " comrades in arms". Why does that upset you? Didn't you serve?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 82): My feelings to a "T" The world laughs at us more and more, we look at the sulking Republicans while a President tries to even thing a little for the masses, and you just have to laugh yours

Ya because they don't get what it means to be a American ... Rare are the stories of regular people achieving the life style we can . Our economic opportunity , our freedom and ability to do things that most foreigners only dream of. And if you don't realize that as a American, then you need to get out more. I am not saying that we are superior ... just that our system has given us a great place to live and raise our children. The liberals want to make us like the rest of the world ... WE ARE NOT LIKE THEM. They may be happy , I don't care, but we want freedom from government control ... that's why our fathers came here...

Baroque is a smart man , very smart .... but he does not understand what I know about America . My story can not happen anywhere else ... believe me I have tried it. Only in America does a very average guy have the chance to fight his way upward ..and too do it on his terms. Not spending years in University getting degrees ..but learning and living and fighting for something that you create ...it is yours ...it is only yours..... that is America , the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail . That is what I love and that is why I fight against these socialists.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85): Baroque is a smart man , very smart

Well the POMs might argue on his intelligence levels.  

But you're missing a lot when you talk about the US being the only country where people can succeed. After living for 8 years in Australia I'm more aware that the opportunities are just as great as they are here.

And people are just as free there as they are here.

Biggest differences? You don't have a lifetime of debt built up for a university education.

You don't over pay for private health insurance like we do in the US.

You can actually have a public program that gives access to doctors and hospitals that are world class. WIthout going broke.

You can say you love this country, but to look down your nose at those with a different opinion is unpatriotic in my opinion. To try to degrade vets who disagree with you as socialists is about as unimpressive as it gets.

If you love the country so much I can assume that you look at the Iraq invasion with fury and the cost we have paid in blood. I'll assume you would be happy with a tax increase in order to increase the VA's support of Vets. Sure you would.   

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85): Baroque is a smart man , very smart .... but he does not understand what I know about America . My story can not happen anywhere else ... believe me I have tried it. Only in America does a very average guy have the chance to fight his way upward ..and too do it on his terms. Not spending years in University getting degrees ..but learning and living and fighting for something that you create ...it is yours ...it is only yours..... that is America , the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail . That is what I love and that is why I fight against these socialists.

You fight for "self" I and many others do not, we would like those who are enttitled to share the bounty. I think it is immoral to take and take, others do not. We see the opportunity you and I have obviously had slip-slideing away, most of it thanks to our politicians and business interests. If you think that you are the only one who has prospered, you are mistaken, because of my success, I came from poverty by the way. I try to help others, many others do not. Shame on them. I still say, it was pathetic, and almost comic, the demeanor of those sulky Republican folks in congress. Like school kids.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85): I am not saying that we are superior ... just that our system has given us a great place to live and raise our children.

Yes, there are a lot of places in America that are fantastic to both live in and raise children - there are also a lot of places I'd never live or raise a child. It's that paradox that the world notices but we seem not to. In the industrialized world, there are a great number of places that fit your description. You'd be hard pressed to find a Kiwi, Dane, or perhaps Japanese to agree with your assessment. Have any idea how rare police sirens are around here? It's great for raising kids.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85): Not spending years in University getting degrees ..but learning and living and fighting for something that you create ...it is yours ...it is only yours..... that is America , the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail

So you're suggesting that other countries don't allow people to put down their stakes in a business and see if it takes? Been following these Malaysians who took on McDonald's for their food chain's right to existence? Know anything about the home-made office lunch delivery service business that has been functioning in Mumbai since the last days of the British Raj? What about the Japanese home tinkerer who refused to take over his father's miso sauce business and created Sony with a Navy buddy instead? He even wrote a book denouncing the emphasis on one's performance in school as a measure of future success.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85): Ya because they don't get what it means to be a American ... Rare are the stories of regular people achieving the life style we can . Our economic opportunity , our freedom and ability to do things that most foreigners only dream of. And if you don't realize that as a American, then you need to get out more.

I assure you, most people free themselves by not caring one way or another what their government is up to in most cases. Again, in terms of developing a business or making one's way, Americans do not live in exclusive company when compared to other industrialized nations. It's a fallacy.

Quoting DXing (Reply 62): So what is to stop someone or their doctor from saying, get one, it doesn't cost you anything?

The bank that is financing the machine he is using for that MRI???

Quoting Dvk (Reply 64): He was referring to groups for whom those procedures are indicated, not any Joe Blow who says he wants some test that's unnecessary.

Sorry, that does not wash. He did not deliniate between those who might be at risk and everyone. Read the statement again.

"And insurance companies will be required to cover, with no extra charge, routine checkups and preventive care, like mammograms and colonoscopies – because there's no reason we shouldn't be catching diseases like breast cancer and colon cancer before they get worse. That makes sense, it saves money, and it saves lives."

He didn't say "groups for whom those procedures are indicated" so if a doctor can make some money off an uneeded mamogram or colonoscopy, guess who pays?

Quoting Dvk (Reply 64): Preventive medicine done correctly does NOT drive up the cost of health care.

Take it up with the CBO, they disagree.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 64): The final straw--you defending Joe Wilson.

   I love the false sense of outrage. Perhaps you have forgotten:

"The Senate's top Democrat, Harry M. Reid of Nevada, called President Bush a "loser" yesterday just about the time Air Force One was touching down on foreign soil.

Two weeks ago, Reid essentially called Bush a liar when Vice President Cheney said he agreed with Senate Republicans about changing the filibuster rule. Reid said that violated a commitment Bush had made to stay out of the fight. Reid said that it "appears he was not being honest."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2005/05/06/AR2005050601814.html

Gosh, where were you then with your final straw?

Quoting Dvk (Reply 64): Belligerent, unyieldingly ideologically right wing.

Of course MoveOn.org, Code Pink, as well as Nancy and Harry are just middle of the road centrists right?     

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): OK, I'll throw that one in - let's have a half a percent tax on incomes over $250,000 and on all corporate income to provide catastrophic care, be it cancer, flooding or any other major problem. I'd go for that. You?

I brought it up didn't I? By why limit it to incomes over 250K? All I hear is how we have to sacrafice, well then everyone should be willing to pay extra for that insurance, including you.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): No, you are treating people who currently not able to afford preventive tests until it is far more expensive to treat.

Wrong. As stated above, take the issue up with the CBO, they are the ones who ran the numbers and came to the correct conclusion that free preventive care for everyone will end up testing many more than is necessary and in the long run ends up costing more.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): Let's look at freedom of choice.

None of that statement addresses the issue I brought up, that someone who doesn't pay taxes is essentially costing the same as someone who doesn't buy insurance who can afford it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): Bush had no problem printing money for his Iraq oil, oooops WMD, quest.

So we are back to the two wrongs make a right argument again?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): Shouldn't be too hard for the Right to get provisions included that will make both illegal.

Too bad it's not. The provision to require proof that you are a citizen before being able to buy the low cost insurance was shot down in committee on pretty much a straight party line vote. I say pretty much since even some democrats thought it was a good idea, just not enough of them. On the abortion issue, as we heard last night, the President does not believe the wording in in the legislation is there to change the law, although it is.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/abortion-which-side-is-fabricating/

The truth is that bills now before Congress don’t require federal money to be used for supporting abortion coverage. So the president is right to that limited extent. But it’s equally true that House and Senate legislation would allow a new "public" insurance plan to cover abortions, despite language added to the House bill that technically forbids using public funds to pay for them. Obama has said in the past that "reproductive services" would be covered by his public plan, so it’s likely that any new federal insurance plan would cover abortion unless Congress expressly prohibits that. Low- and moderate-income persons who would choose the "public plan" would qualify for federal subsidies to purchase it. Private plans that cover abortion also could be purchased with the help of federal subsidies. Therefore, we judge that the president goes too far when he calls the statements that government would be funding abortions "fabrications."

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): Try Medicare Advantage - a government financed private care plan that's far more expensive than Medicare. Cut that out and save billions.

This is one of the more humorous arguments you make. As someone noted today, if the program is such a waste of money why is it that health care reform has to pass before they can do away with it? What that means is that they are evidently willing to waste millions of dollars every month while health care is bound up in Congress. Yep, I can really see them going after the waste and fraud they say will pay for health insurance reform.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): Competition is what private insurance companies are most afraid of.

Unfair competition is what insurance companies are afraid of and that is exactly what the government will present as they have the force of law behind them to set any rule they wish as well as the power to tax and create money when their program is in the red.

I found it interesting that the President chose to say, in Alabama one company controls 90% of the health insurance market and then rather than say, let's repeal the State regulations via the interstate commerce clause in the Constitution that keep other companies from entering the State and allow free enterprise to flourish, that he only wants one company, in the form of the government, to compete with that one company. Yet he claims that competition is what drives prices down.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): The Right could give a flying fuck about health care for the poor or uninsured. Those folks don't fork up the big dollars in campaign contributions.

   This is an edited version of President Bush's 2008 State of the Union speech. Before the financial meltdown. Pick it up at the 6:00 minute mark. Interesting to here the President call for reformation of Fannie and Freddie as well as numerous heatlh care initatives, some of the same ones that President Obama is calling for. In front of a democratic party led Congress. Yet did they take up his call? Of course not but why not? Now all of the sudden the rush is on. Why? Perhaps because it didn't suit their partisan needs to pass any kind of health care reform when a Republican was in the White House? Talk about hypocrites. Their names are Pelosi and Reid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDe6CeRW744&feature=related

Quoting DXing (Reply 90): So we are back to the two wrongs make a right argument again?

Not really. But it's a bit queer to moan about $80 to $90 Billion a year to provide major improvements in health card after sighing a blank check for Iraq. This blank will continue to be used for half a century at least because a lot of money is needed to take care of Vets. Just like we're still taking care of vets going back to WW II.

As for Medicare Advantage, I can see it ending - hopefully this year. But I also think it's wise for us to wait until potential replacements are established so those patients will be able to make an informed choice.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 91): Not really. But it's a bit queer to moan about $80 to $90 Billion a year to provide major improvements in health card after sighing a blank check for Iraq.

Money spent is money spent doesn't make any difference what it is spent on since it is still going out the door. One big difference, spending on the war is finite, we know it will end. Spending on nefarious health care reform is forever and as we have seen with SS as well as medicare and medicaid, the cost never ever goes down or goes away.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 91): As for Medicare Advantage, I can see it ending - hopefully this year. But I also think it's wise for us to wait until potential replacements are established so those patients will be able to make an informed choice.

So you're all for wasting more money. If the program is such a financial loser then you ought to be for killing it now, heck 6 months ago.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 64): Preventive medicine done correctly does NOT drive up the cost of health care.

The U.S. insurance companies should actually be inviting people to mammographies, for instance, and giving discounts to people who take these tests. Preventive medicine will keep the overall long-time costs of healthcare down, but as the cost benefits will be realized in the long run only, companies that seek fast gains this financial year, will always see an initiation as a loss on their sheets.

Another reason why a socialized insurance system wins. In this country the 50-69 year olds are screened for breast cancer (=mammography) biyearly. Around 80% accept this free opportunity,and it's estimated breast care mortality is down by 25% due to this very simple non-invasive method.

The sole purpose of prevetive medicine is to use statistical methods to save lives -- and money. Neglecting it is the financial equal of burning your money in the stove.

Public health....BS....total BS....

Here in Japan...It sucks sooo much. I hate it.

My two kids are free for any health issue until they are 15 years old. All medicine...free. Every doctor visit...free. That sucks, doesn't it?

I pay $300 a month into the national insurance system. This includes health insurance for myself and my wife, disability insurance and the pension fund.

My employer pays $300 as well on my behalf. Horrible.

Of course....everything is covered.
My yearly health check-up is free.
My wife gets free check-ups which include checks for ovarian, cervical and breast cancers.
All vaccines are free.
All Check-ups for kids are free.
This also pays for the health education system which is "prevention care"; Pre-natal education, post delivery education, and every check after that.
If I stay in Japan and retire here, I will again be close to free for all health care. I would have paid into the system. Yes someone will be helping to pay for it but then again I am helping to pay for the elderly now. I think it is only fair. I pay for the future and present.
If I leave Japan, I can get a refund of a large percent of what I have paid in.

The problem is Japanese doctors have limited training in my mind, they are moved around so often (public doctors) that you don't get the same doctor every time and no doctor wants to work in anywhere but the major university hospitals, private practice and large cities. Another downside is transplants. Japan has a screwy law on transplanting for kids. Many go to the US where the care is better, doctors are better but will have to pay out of their pocket which usually comes to several thousand dollars.

The other downside is that the population is decreasing and as a result there are fewer young people available to pay for the elderly. The other side is some politicians abused the system (no system of checks and balances, Japanese don't speak out) and pocketed money.

It is difficult to opt out of the public system in Japan and most will not anyway as it is a good, fair & easy deal. We can get supplementary insurance from private companies (many are from the US) which helps cover even the 20% co-pay on a major procedure or accident.

I doubt the US will go the way of Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Holland, Belgium, Poland, Japan, Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, China, Cuba or even god forbid Japan. It will be very American. I hope it will be American in the form of "best quality and coverage for the best price" and not American meaning "Everyday Low Low prices (limited coverage)."

And since America is a land of individuals and bellybutton watchers, there will have to be a private system for people to choose from. Without it, people will be literally up in arms. The government will have to make a standard for coverage that all companies would have to achieve. Without it things will not be better. Also maybe insurance companies should be able to sell outside of state, as long as it meets the national base standard.

No system is perfect but we have to do what is best for our country. That means put everything out on the table, weigh it and then try it. If it doesn't work, change it. That is life and that is our system of government.

P.S. We had a public health system in the US but it was dismantled as the Soviet had a public system. My parents worked in the public health system. My mother educated women on pre-natal and post delivery issues. Women stayed in the hospital up to a week after giving birth. Today they stay what 24 hours. They don't know anything about how to take care of the baby, there is no support system, they give the baby formula and not the breast (which can help reduce problems related to allergies and protects the baby) and are barely strong enough to deal with the next weeks ahead. The only thing left from that concept is school lunch and gym class. I guess politics were more important than a strong healthy nation.

Quoting DXing (Reply 90): so if a doctor can make some money off an uneeded mamogram or colonoscopy, guess who pays?

You don't know what you're talking about, at all. There are already laws against physicians "referring patients to themselves" to prevent what you're hypothesizing, so Obama didn't HAVE to spell it out further. When I refer a patient for a mammogram or a colonoscopy, I don't make one effing cent, because I don't perform the procedure myself. The radiologist who reads the mammogram gets paid, and the gastroenterologist who performs the colonoscopy gets paid. The referring physician gets NOTHING, or else he has broken the law, PERIOD. State licensing boards will suspend the license and fine physicians who violate these laws.

The rest of your post is the usual garbage, comparing apples and oranges. Wilson's outburst was unprecedented, and you essentially gave his behavior a pass just because you agree with him. Guess what? Your hero Wilson showed a clear lack of "personal responsibility", the insult you love to hurl at the drop of a hat toward anyone who doesn't ascribe to your paranoid right wing extremist views.

I know that this is going to be so long that nobody is going to take the time to read it, but whatever.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): Personally, I hope that our politics don't start to look like Parliament.

I certainly hope that they do! I can only hope that people in the government are fighting so hard for the people that they're willing to go at each other for the sake of the betterment of whatever situation happens to please them that day.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 1): You keep your mouth shut while the President of the United States is speaking.

Bull to the crap. There is no reason why said figurehead is any more important than I am. I will respect his right to speak, as well as he should respect my right to speak. Do you honestly feel that you, as a human being on the face of this planet, are beneath the President? Sure, he's got a cool title and all, but you're failing to remember that that dude is working for YOU! You should certainly be able to say whatever you want to him. After all, if it weren't for you, he wouldn't have a flippin' job.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 5): Actually I could picture folks like McCain and Pelosi engaging in such fights

McCain is so far up the ass of the current administration that there's no wonder how or why the Repubs lost the game... and I'm not even a Repub (though I may sound like it at times).

Quoting AustinAirport (Reply 7): He delivers a broad vocabulary.

From the mouths of babes... Of course he "delivers a broad vocabulary" with the help of speech writers and teleprompters. Please.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10): I was happy to see Obama open the door to Tort Reform. I hope he's serious, and is not just dangling a false carrot.

How long has Tort reform been on the menu? How many of these fine folks in politics are lawyers? I've been hearing about Tort reform since the Reagan era, and ain't shit gonna' happen until we stop electing lawyers into office. Seriously.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 13): This man is shameful and of no honor to do this in the joint session during a Presidential address.

Goes back to the Parliament thing... he's pretty damn cool, and should be starting a ruckus where powdered wigs are flying all over the place. Too bad that so many people think that stating their belief is a punishable offense in this "fine" governmental society. Hang the bitch!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 25): Agreed , not the place for it and it appeared very juvenile .

As juvenile as pretty much everything else that goes on in this crack-ass administration. No harm, no foul. Let it go.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27): We don't. And that is why I predict complete collapse of the United States within 100 years.

You honestly give it that long, Doc? I wish that I were so optimistic.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38): Preventative healthcare saves a lot of money. But if people can't afford their meds, then they get sick, and then they have costly trips to the ER instead of cheap trips to their GP. Over and over and over.

Agreed. That said, though, there's no reason that the 'pital should send us someone with a prescription for Zyvox when they know that Medicaid isn't going to pay for it, the facility isn't about to absorb it, and the patient doesn't have $1600 for 20 pills. Take this question off line if you feel like it, but why in the hell would a doc even prescribe that knowing that their patient is going to get screwed? I deal with this crap every damn day.

Quoting WestWing (Reply 44): But get this. Even if I was in one of those dastardly socialized medicine countries like Japan, Canada or the UK - and I needed an MRI in an emergency, it would have been done for me with no waiting. No medical professional in Japan, Canada, or UK would let you wait for 36 hours for imaging if he judged you needed it right away - ie if it was a life/death matter.

Spot on. But you screwed yourself with the last qualifier. (ie [sic] if it was a life/death matter). You have no idea how many times a life and death matter gets confused with "monitor and report any substantial change in condition".

Quoting Mir (Reply 54): I'm not a doctor, but I'd be willing to bet that those cases are extremely rare.

I'm not a doctor, either, but I'd be willing to bet that you may be extremely wrong here.

Quoting Mir (Reply 57): Basically, it's about doctors making the decisions about what their patients should do, rather than the insurance companies. This goes hand in hand with liability reform, so that doctors don't feel compelled to order tests that aren't necessary for CYA purposes.

Well yeah. In a perfect world, I suppose. My point: Insurance companies, nor doctors should be making these decisions. I have too many docs that are overriding durable power of attorneys to order bullshit tests.

Quoting DXing (Reply 62): This is the same old used car he's been selling since before he took office. Still has sawdust in the transmission and a Earl Schive paint job to cover up the rust.

Love it!

Quoting Peterpuck (Reply 65): Good luck America, I hope you change for the better.

Watching the toilet water swirl around the drain.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 72): -MEDICAID-$150 billion Deficit and growing

No doubt about that.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 72): Just because we have them don't mean we need them. Why do so many trust in the government ?

Sheep. Lemmings. Rats in a cage.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 82): What is the Republican take on the example about two children with cancer and no health coverage? I am not talking someone wealthy either. I can not imagine the horror of it, the Republicans could not give a shit. Quite obvious to me. Those sulky guys do have fine medical plan to carry them through, not really worried about others.

Great comment there. I'm not a Republican, but I find your comment quite offensive. You're basically saying that all Republicans don't care about two children with cancer. So you're going off of one story, eh? Well, let me tell you about all of the stories about fundraisers that Republicans have set up for other kids with cancer... or their parents, or their grandparents, or some other kid with cancer. That's bullshit, and you know it. If it's obvious to you, perhaps you need a strong cup of coffee to wake up. You might as well be saying that the Shriners set kids on fire so they can support their burn centers and circuses. Boo on you.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 87): You fight for "self" I and many others do not, we would like those who are enttitled to share the bounty.

Socialist much? You can have any car that you want, as long as it's a Volkswagen Beetle. Didn't we already do this before?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 78): It's the blinkered hypocrisy in the debate that drives us nuts.

That is certainly what manages to come over outside the magic walls surrounding the Great State.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 79): You have to remember that the Hard Right looks at you like they do "Old Europe" and certainly don't expect that you can be smarter than they are. Greatest lesson I learned when serving in the Navy and "seeing the world" was that people in other countries can actually walk and chew gum at the same time.

Yes, some of us can, mind you we had to practice for years.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85): Baroque is a smart man , very smart .... but he does not understand what I know about America .

Probably not, but I did work in Kansas for a year, and last time I checked it was real near the centre of the US and is what I believe is a red state. Got to shake the hand - not something you forget either - of a certain Kansas senator.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86): Quoting AGM100 (Reply 85): Baroque is a smart man , very smart Well the POMs might argue on his intelligence levels.

Yes, well you know the saying here, we were selected by the best judges in England!    And of course the Kiwis are never tired of pointing out that migration from NZ raises the IQ in both countries.

Quoting DXing (Reply 92): One big difference, spending on the war is finite, we know it will end.

Sure. How long was the war in Iraq supposed to last?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86): But you're missing a lot when you talk about the US being the only country where people can succeed.

Never said it was the only place ...never. But more people do it there way in the US than anywhere else . We are a nation of entrepreneurs and self determined people. Stats show that 70% of our employment is small business ...70% ...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86): To try to degrade vets who disagree with you as socialists is about as unimpressive as it gets.

Sorry Ken , not intended to insult . I don't get insulted personal when I am called a wing nut. But populist socialism is what it is.... it should not insult you if you believe in it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86): I'll assume you would be happy with a tax increase in order to increase the VA's support of Vets. Sure you would.

If I could trust that the money would be spent for that I sure as hell would . But , I prefer to have the money in my bank account so that I can donate it to private charities and direct help to vets. Just like all government programs .. the VA is wrought with mis management , waste and neglect . Like our haethcare will be 20 years from now.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 87): we would like those who are entitled to share the bounty

That is the head of the pin .... no able bodied person is entitled to any thing for free. They may have some assistance in hard times ..but they are not entitled. Entitlement breeds entitlement ... it is a motivation killer. No one landing on Ellis Island thought they were entitled to anything .... they did not come here for a entitlement program...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 88): Have any idea how rare police sirens are around here? It's great for raising kids.

Aaron , I understand ..or nation is under siege in many places. Touchy feely liberal thinking has brought this on. A touchy feely " rehabilitation " mindset rather than a punishment mindset has contributed greatly to this problem.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 88): So you're suggesting that other countries don't allow people to put down their stakes in a business and see if it takes?

Allow ? not the word I would use . But our policies have not only allowed it ... our policies promote it .. Now that is key . How many system around the world promote small business ownership . See this is why we fight so hard against government intrusion ... every dollar they take from us is taken out of our free market system . The pie keeps getting smaller as they take more.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 88): I assure you, most people free themselves by not caring one way or another what their government is up to in most cases

Not in America Aaron .... we are founded on the principles that big government is a problem .. So we watch them ... and we fight them. And now we are again losing and frankly when we lose ..the rest of the world who shares our industry in-ovation and partnerships lose as well. Soon it will be only government entities and huge corporations who do the business .

Quoting Baroque (Reply 97): Probably not, but I did work in Kansas for a year

Did you drive a pickup truck ?