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LTU932
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Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:39 am

I've opened this thread because the other appears to have been archived. Anyway, today's the big day. It's Super Sunday, because Germany is voting for a new federal government, plus Schleswig-Holstein and Brandenburg are electing a new state government as well. Anyone making predictions on who will win, and who you voted for? Hadn't I gone about a month before the elections to the Embassy, I would have voted as well, however my (symbolic) Zweitstimme goes to the CDU, because to me they're currently the better of two evils.

As for the outcome (and this is just my personal prediction), CDU/CSU may not really win a lot today, however I do believe that it will be enough for their "dream coalition" with the FDP (which will get at least 12% this time around), while the SPD will have a landslide loss, possibly even going below 20%, all because of their credibility problem. I do fear that the communists from the SED (aka Linkspartei) will have significant wins that will put them well above 10%, but it won't be enough for them. As for the Greens (Bündnis '90/Die Grüne), no significant changes will occur.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
TransIsland
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:47 am

Get off the communists/SED train already, it makes about as much sense as calling the CDU communists for their continuation of the Blockfloeten CDU, or calling them Nazis due to Filbinger & Kiesinger, or more recent characters such as Lummer.

Other than that, I fear that your prediction will come true.
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N104UA
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:48 am

It looks like that CDU/CSU will loose a few seats in the Bundestag but I think that they will win enough seats to keep Merkel in office.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
wilco737
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:12 am

It will be a close call tonight. Either it'll be CDU/ CSU with the FDP or SPD with Die Grüne and Die Linke.
I have the feeling that CDU together with the FDP will make the race tonight.

I will have breakfast now and then walk over and make my 2 votes  Smile

wilco737
 
Klaus
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:27 pm

CDU/CSU + FDP already lost the last election and they've continued losing mass in the regional elections (at the same time many voters switching from CDU/CSU to FDP).

If it wasn't for the SPD choosing the grand coalition instead of using the left majority, Merkel would not have become chancellor last time.

And given the current climate I wouldn't be surprised if that trend continued.

Because of the sliding numbers of the biggest parties there can be a growing number of Überhangmandate (the number of directly elected MPs exceeding the number of proportional seats won).

It would be extremely fishy if the CDU/CSU should win a majority with the FDP just because of that effect – this mechanism has already been ruled unconstitutional recently for its side effects and will have to be changed; A governing coalition based on just that would be severely defective.

But I'm hoping that it won't come to that.

Realistically – with the SPD continuing to refuse a coalition with the Linkspartei and the Linkspartei being too large for SPD+Greens alone reaching a majority – the only alternatives at this time would be a CDU/CSU+FDP coalition or a continuation of CDU/CSU+SPD.

Nothing to get me excited either, but the lunacies proposed on the right would be a major disaster.

I hope that it won't come to that.

[Edited 2009-09-27 06:46:04]
 
PanHAM
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 1):
Get off the communists/SED train already, it makes about as much sense as calling the CDU communists for their continuation of the Blockfloeten CDU, or calling them Nazis due to Filbinger & Kiesinger, or more recent characters such as Lummer.

Just some short information you obviously lack.

The SED continues as the same political party since their foundation in east Germany after the war. They are communists and will remain communists, regardless how many time they re-label themselves. The SED was the one and only political force in east Germany, they ruled, controled and owned the state. What you call "Blockfloeten" was actually part of the political machine run by the SED and they had no own live whatsoever. They could not fart without asking the Politbuero of the state party SED for permission.

The CDU is no continuation of the Nazis, thank God the country was ruled after the meld-down by the Allied Forces until 1949 when the Federal Republic of Germany was founded and they did not permit a continuation under the label "Party of Democratic National Socialism". The CDU was founded new after the war and its driving force, Konrad Afenauer, was an enemy of the nazis and he was under detention in the 40s. after he denied hanging flags in Cologne (he was mayor of CGN then) for a visit by Hitler.

We should be glad today that Germany survived 2 dictatorships, that of the national lsocialsts and the communist socialsts. We should not make the same mistakes again and have extremists parties participating in political decisions in Germany. The SED or whatever she calls herself today is not fit to participate as a serious political force, the party ois not democratic. Any such participation would start the vicious circle again under which Germany and its neighbours have suffered.
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Rara
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:09 pm

Nonsense. The Linksparty is the most prominent political force in East Germany, where they represent the political centre. They're neither Communist nor undemocratic. If you don't like them (and I certainly don't), attack them for what they are, not for what they were. They're not going away anytime soon, and certainly not because of allegations from 20 years ago.


Back to topic! I predict a close race, and I believe Union and FDP won't pull it off. Looks like four more years of a grand coalition, which is, in my view, the best government for this country, but will be desastrous for the two large parties and therefore dangerous in the long run.

Four conservative years will be ugly, but may bring the return of a strong social-democratic opposition.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:38 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
Because of the sliding numbers of the biggest parties there can be a growing number of Überhangmandate (the number of directly elected MPs exceeding the number of proportional seats won).

It would be extremely fishy if the CDU/CSU should win a majority with the FDP just because of that effect

Well, yes, wasn't that how Mr. Schroeder came to power? I cannot recall you criticizing him or his party for that.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
this mechanism has already been ruled unconstitutional recently for its side effects and will have to be changed

Yes, for one side effect, the so called "negatives Stimmgewicht", the effect that your vote for a certain party may have - under bizarre circumstances - a negative effect on said party.
Hence, it was kinda funny to witness Germans blaming Americans for the "undemocratic election of G.W. Bush" in 2000, don't you think?  Wink

Quoting LTU932 (Thread starter):
while the SPD will have a landslide loss, possibly even going below 20%

Huh? It will probably be around 25%

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 3):
Either it'll be CDU/ CSU with the FDP or SPD with Die Grüne and Die Linke.

Where have you been?
We will either see a continuation of the Grand Coalition or a coalition of the Conservatives and Liberals.
The Greens will not go with Die Linke, nor will the SPD.
I support the right to arm bears
 
PanHAM
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:18 pm

good for the country.

Looks like the Liberals will be the big winners tonight and that a coalition between the liberal FDP and the Christian Democrats can be formed.

That is good for Germany and good for aviation in this country BTW as well. This will bring zus a big step forward to reality.

Quoting Rara (Reply 6):
Nonsense. The Linksparty is the most prominent political force

yours is nonsense, What is called DIE LINKE is the re-branded SED. That is a fact as well that this is a communist party. They swallowed chalk and fool the people and obviously many fools fall for that. I never want this country to be riuled by extremists again and, on an election night, this is very much on-topic.

It's pity that only 20 years after reunification this extremist party and their mankind dispising politics gets such a voter turn out.

But OK, the majority have voted for a Christian Democart/Liberal coalition and that is the good message tonight.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
na
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:24 pm

Merkels win seems to be clearer than I have expected.
I´m fine with Merkel staying at the helm but a strong "elbow"-party FDP is not good at all. If they try to further erode the society by giving the rich and taking from the poor even more like they alraedy did before, then I´m already now afraid of the next elections, because that will bring on the Reds for sure then.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:34 pm

http://wahlarchiv.tagesschau.de/flash/?wahl=2009-09-27-BT-DE

Looks like SPD is really getting hammered. My question is, what is it about their credibility that would make them lose almost 1/3 of their votes in 4 years?
 
PanHAM
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting Na (Reply 9):
FDP is not good at all. If they try to further erode the society by giving the rich and taking from the poor even more like they alraedy did before, then I´m already now

The rich take care of themselves and they give, just look at the statistics of the percentage of taxpayers, a minority paying the majority of taxes.

Provided the FDP can get their program through in the coalition negociations, a family of 5 with an invcome of € 40.000 does not pay a single cent in taxes, because each family member choldren included has an € 8000,00 tax break. The FDP is good for the middle class which pays the bulk of the social goodies which have nbeen spread o ver the people in the past 3 decades by the big parties.

Many in the middle class have realized a long time ago that they pay their benefits themselves. Bear in mind that in this country, one third of the GNP is spend for social matters, from health care to pensions-.

It has to be said, that being "poor" in this country means, you are fully health insured, get a minimum income which covers food et all, housing paid, utilities paid and all that for the rest of your life without getting out of bed each morning. On top of that, yu can moonlight at wish and keep that income tax free.

Ask an American homeless what he thinks, if that's considered "poor".

This new, likely coalition will be good for all of us because we will get things down to basics again. There are some simple things put upside down over the past years and we have to get these back in order.

The grand coalition has made too many foul compromises which were driven by left ideology rather than reality and in essence totally wrong.This has to be reversed but this will be good for all of us, including the low income people who are paying too much into the system as well.
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TransIsland
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:24 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
Just some short information you obviously lack.

Thank you for your Nachhilfe, but I think I can say that I am reasonably well informed about Germany, its politics and history, as that is what I do for a living, albeit no longer *in* Germany. Also, thank you for ignoring the little inconvenience (for you, that is) about the Blockfloetenpast of the East German CDU (and FDP, for that matter).
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
Thorben
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:04 pm

Finally, after 11 years of suffering, the day of liberation has come. I still can't believe it, I thought we would see another four years of the disgusting GroKo. I just hope the FDP - with the strong election result behind them - makes plans of civil liberties and financial relief for those actually working true and doesn't succumb to surveillance advocates like Schäuble and Bosbach or half-socialists like Rüttgers or von der Leyen.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
na
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:23 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
the percentage of taxpayers, a minority paying the majority of taxes.

Thats only fair if 3/4 of the wealth is in the hands of a few percent of the population, isnt it?
The only unfair thing is that in the middle of the spectrum the tax rates go up, and at the top they stay even. Imho it must be the top 5%, the people who wouldnt hardly notice if they have 20% less, that need to be taxed higher.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
The FDP is good for the middle class

I dont dispute that, I´m a memebr of the middle class and Im among those who has suffered through high taxes enough. But I´m not egoistic. What I dont like about the FDP is that they will do so at the expense of the poor, and not on the expense of the rich who have had an unfairly massive percentage of increase in wealth anyway in the past decade already. And that is massively unfair and thats why the FDP is unvotable for me just like the Linke.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
It has to be said, that being "poor" in this country means, you are fully health insured, get a minimum income which covers food et all, housing paid, utilities paid and all that for the rest of your life without getting out of bed each morning.

Did you ever speak to someone who had no chance than to live that way? And "fully health insured" means something different nowadays than 10 years ago when it still was really that way. And the places where many Harz4 people live are Slums in the waiting.

I´m afraid CDU/FDP will mean that 10-20% of the German people will now be abandoned completely.
ONLY IF the new government will support the fast shrinking middleclass by taking the necessary money for these measures from people who have far more than enough to spend and not further cut from those who already have no chance now a social collapse in 10, 20 years can be prevented.
 
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vanguard737
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:47 pm

Congratulations to the CDU/CSU and FDP!

I am confident that with this center-right government, Germany will be much better able to weather the economic, domestic, and foreign problems that abound for all recently.

The "Grand" Coalition has been like a car driving with its emergency brake engaged for the last four years.

I must say though, it worries me when the communists (Die Linke) are able to secure over 10% of the national vote.

Anyhow - glad to see Angie will be in power for another term!!!

WIR haben die Kraft!  highfive 

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PPVRA
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:49 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 14):

Thats only fair if 3/4 of the wealth is in the hands of a few percent of the population, isnt it?

The problem is in reconciling that, with. .

Quoting NA (Reply 14):


I´m afraid CDU/FDP will mean that 10-20% of the German people will now be abandoned completely.
ONLY IF the new government will support the fast shrinking middleclass by taking the necessary money for these measures from people who have far more than enough to spend and not further cut from those who already have no chance now a social collapse in 10, 20 years can be prevented.

. . this.

That wealth is invested and is what keeps the economy going. It is invested in productive endevours, unlike taxes, which are spent mostly on consumption--security, pensions, handouts (corporate and personal), healthcare, etc as well as subsidizing politically correct whatevers (I say "whatevers" because there are far too many to list).

That 3/4 of wealth isn't consumed by the wealthy, which is why they are wealthy in the first place, it is mostly merely managed by them. And they will manage it much better than any self-righteous, over-paid bureaucrat who doesn't really stand to lose anything if the money is wasted.

With all this said, I am still skeptical of how well much of what has been proposed will be accomplished. Whether it's how well the FDP and CDU understand what needs to be done to having "compromises" on key points that completely squanders any hope of a reform ever working properly, if at all, I will have to see it to believe it. I've seen too many reforms been completely fumbled to put any faith in politicians, regardless of their ideals.
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LTU932
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:01 pm



Quoting Rara (Reply 6):
Nonsense. The Linksparty is the most prominent political force in East Germany, where they represent the political centre.

Then how do you explain the departure of many Linkspartei-Members in Hessen, who joined because they were supposed to be centrist and yet they found out that the same communist ideas since DDR-Times were still floating around by the party ruler, who are also part of the hardliners in the party?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 7):
Huh? It will probably be around 25%

It appears to be well below 25%.  Wink

In the end, I would have only voted Union for being the lesser of all evils. I just hope that progress can be made with Angie as Chancelorrette, and "Super Guido" Westerwelle as Vice Chancellor. BTW, speaking of the Vice Chancellor, it seems that Westerwelle may become Foreign Minister, to step into Genscher's footsteps (and Genscher did publically support Guido), and the footsteps of many other Vice Chancellors, because the Foreign Office is often taken over by the Vice Chancellor.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
NoUFO
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:13 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
It appears to be well below 25%.

And well above "less than 20%", right?  Wink

25% was what Allensbach, Forsa et. al. predicted.
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/index.htm

Quoting VANGUARD73's profile (Reply 15):
Hobbies: Deutsch lernen

There may come new words and phrases for you to learn:

Sozialabbau
Laufzeitverlängerung der Atomkraftwerke
Industrialisierte Landwirtschaft
Wohlstandsschere
Stammzellenforschung

 Wink
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:21 pm

I never knew which "side" Mrs. Merkel was on. Is she a conservative like Sarkozy or more like a socialist (left wing)?

Did she win with a comfortable advance or will she have to make an alliiance with other parties (forming a coalition) in order to remain the Chancellor?

How long does the term last and can she get re-elected again or is there only two terms?
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Klaus
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:32 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 19):
I never knew which "side" Mrs. Merkel was on. Is she a conservative like Sarkozy or more like a socialist (left wing)?

Compared to Sarkozy she is far more centrist, although there are some in her party who'd want a more aggressive course.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 19):
Did she win with a comfortable advance or will she have to make an alliiance with other parties (forming a coalition) in order to remain the Chancellor?

Her party actually lost votes again, but the econo-liberal FDP grew enough to allow a coalition.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 19):
How long does the term last and can she get re-elected again or is there only two terms?

The term lasts four years, and there is no term limitation.

Case in point: We've had 16 years of Helmut Kohl!  yuck 
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:47 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 20):
Case in point: We've had 16 years of Helmut Kohl!

I should have remembered him.

I saw him quite close at President Mitterrand funeral Mass inside Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris along with an amazing arrays of monarchs and politicians including Boris Yeltsin, Mouammar Ghadafy and Fidel Castro. You can see Helmut Kohl on this video.

http://www.ina.fr/art-et-culture/mus...re-dame-philippe-harrouard.fr.html

I never realized he stayed in power for so long. President Mitterrand stayed in power for almost 14 years and Mr Kohl stayed even longer. I liked these two men. They were both men with great experience showing an equilibrium which I think is missing nowadays. Mr Mitterrand was always very philosophical and a thinker.

Now I wish Mrs Merkel good luck for the next 4 years.
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LTU932
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:52 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
And well above "less than 20%", right?

25% was what Allensbach, Forsa et. al. predicted.

I was referring to the ZDF-Prognose.  Wink

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
Laufzeitverlängerung der Atomkraftwerke

I personally am all for it. It's pointless to shut down AKWs if we do not have a mature enough way to harness renewable energy. To me, this shutdown will only cause a step back into coal power (which is also a hot topic in Hamburg because of the new Moorburg plant) or oil power. Until we can advantage of renewable power sources in a more efficient way than today, we need to keep those nuclear powerplants, unless we want to go back into burning more fossil fuel for that, or even start importing more electricity from abroad.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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LTU932
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:16 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 21):
President Mitterrand stayed in power for almost 14 years and Mr Kohl stayed even longer.

AFAIK, back then a Presidential term lasted 7 years (until Jacques Chirac had it reduced to five), so in that way, Mitterand was in power for almost 2 complete 7 year terms, while Helmut Kohl lasted 4 whole 4 year terms. In a nutshell, Kohl has more terms in power than Mitterand in a comparable timeframe.  Wink
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Sabena332
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:29 pm

Wow, a female chancellor(ette) and a gay foreign minister, I am speachless. That really shows that we're a trendy and hip country without any discrimination and prejudices. Now just pull a German with "immigration background" out of the hat as well and put him into an important ministry position. The whole world will bow down to kiss Germany's ass.  Wink

Patrick
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LTU932
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:55 pm



Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 24):
Now just pull a German with "immigration background" out of the hat as well and put him into an important ministry position.

I volunteer. After all, my father came to Germany as an Italian Gastarbeiter in the 60's, decided to stay and received his green card later on, and then he took the German citizenship in 1980. That should make me someone with immigration background.  Wink

After all, better me than Cem Özdemir.  stirthepot 
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Sabena332
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:09 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 25):
I volunteer. After all, my father came to Germany as an Italian Gastarbeiter in the 60's, decided to stay and received his green card later on, and then he took the German citizenship in 1980. That should make me someone with immigration background.

That definitely qualifies! Go for it, I'll support you...

...but only as long as you promise Bundesliga every day and 10 adittionally vacation days for every BuLi fan so that they can go to a lot of away-games on Sunday.  Wink

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 25):
After all, better me than Cem Özdemir.

Cem who? Oh yeah, they guy who's in the party I voted for. Somehow I forgot him since 18:00h.  Wink

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:28 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Thread starter):
today's the big day.

As this is the day when Mr Peer Steinbrück gets ousted from office, people in Switzerland will open bottles of champagne, when the most hated politician after Mr Khaddafi loses power  Big grin




Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
What is called DIE LINKE is the re-branded SED.

you may be right. Fact however is that the "nouveau SED" thanks to the Bürgerliche Rightwing politics of Mr Schröder has taken over much of the SPD which in future has to get into coalitions with them

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 10):
My question is, what is it about their credibility that would make them lose almost 1/3 of their votes in 4 years?

Simple. They have to realize that you cannot do politics "à la Mr Schröder" heavily right of the centre and declare to be Social Democrat.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:39 pm

I'm curious what direction The Greens will take after this election. They gained more votes (compared to 2005), but their "natural partner" to form a government, the Social Democrats / SPD, are basically smashed. The Greens now have three options:

- Make a left turn and go with double-red, that is SPD and Die Linke. And explain this very shift to the large number of civil-rights activists and freelancers within their party.
In this case, June 2009 was probably the first and last time The Financial Times Deutschland suggested their readers to vote for The Greens ("market oriented innovation drivetrain").

- Make a right turn towards Conservatives/CDU and Liberals/FDP and speculate on Jamaica-Coalitions. And explain this shift to the lefties among the The Greens.

- Not form a government coalition for a long to come until the Social Democrats recover.

I sense a new factional struggle coming up like the one between Green "Fundis" and "Realos" (with the pragmatic "Realo" wing emerging as victor).
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Rara
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:41 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):
Then how do you explain the departure of many Linkspartei-Members in Hessen, who joined because they were supposed to be centrist and yet they found out that the same communist ideas since DDR-Times were still floating around by the party ruler, who are also part of the hardliners in the party?

Doesn't really disprove the fact that the Linksparty represents the political centre in East Germany.

Look, you won't get me to defend them; I dislike them as much as the next man. But you can't just label them "SED" and pretend their still the block party from 20 years ago. Look closely at the election results, for example in Berlin. The Linkspartei wins all Eastern districts with close to 50%. Obviously people feel that their candidates raise the right concerns and are a better choice than the traditional large parties. Does that make every second voter in East Berlin a communist? Laughable.

The Linkspartei is here to stay, and they'll be part of the federal government within the next decade. Call them extremists and you'll speed up the process.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 21):
Mr Mitterrand was always very philosophical and a thinker.

Well, Kohl was not.  Smile Which sort of sums it up.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
racko
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:20 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 28):
I sense a new factional struggle coming up like the one between Green "Fundis" and "Realos" (with the pragmatic "Realo" wing emerging as victor).

The Greens face one problem: Their politicians are Realos, their voters are Realos, but the party "base" are Fundis who like to make a mess of everything. See Özdemir's fate.

It will be really interesting if the FDP will put the money where their mouth is when it comes to civil rights. Will they force the CDU to leave their path towards 1984 or will they give it up in order to get more tax cuts through?

I hope for the first, but I fear we'll see the latter.
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1043
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:36 pm

I am honestly struggeling to keep my composure. I have to accept the clear election result and it really tears my heart.
I know I have said it before, but bearing in mind my personal circumstances I can easily say that the die is cast this time: I WILL LEAVE THIS COUNTRY!

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
It has to be said, that being "poor" in this country means, you are fully health insured, get a minimum income which covers food et all, housing paid, utilities paid and all that for the rest of your life without getting out of bed each morning. On top of that, yu can moonlight at wish and keep that income tax free.

You have never been close to being poor, so please don't call names from high up of your horse.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 22):
we need to keep those nuclear powerplants, unless we want to go back into burning more fossil fuel for that, or even start importing more electricity from abroad.

I will not get into this since it's off topic, bur you probably know my opinion on the matter.
By the way, regardless of who you voted for I do think that you (or any expat) should not have exerted your right to vote (read: should not have said right), but that's just my personal opinion (and I know we differ on that).

Quoting Rara (Reply 29):
Look, you won't get me to defend them; I dislike them as much as the next man. But you can't just label them "SED" and pretend their still the block party from 20 years ago. Look closely at the election results, for example in Berlin. The Linkspartei wins all Eastern districts with close to 50%. Obviously people feel that their candidates raise the right concerns and are a better choice than the traditional large parties. Does that make every second voter in East Berlin a communist? Laughable.

 checkmark 

Anyway, it will be interesting if we will see a rejuvenation and total shake up of the Social Democrats or if they'll stay on their path of self destruction.

The sun will not shine as long as Guido is in charge! Not a minute!
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:44 pm



Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
The sun will not shine as long as Guido is in charge! Not a minute!

Oh, of course it will! Just be sure to have your radiation protection gear at hand...!  cool 
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:24 am



Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
I WILL LEAVE THIS COUNTRY!

Rest assured there's no smirk on my face: Whereto?

You know, policies in this country haven't changed much since 1949, no matter who was in charge. We have the Bundestag, the Bundesrat, the President, the Supreme Court - and the people. It's actually quite difficult to start a revolution.
I support the right to arm bears
 
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LTU932
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:34 am



Quoting Rara (Reply 29):
The Linkspartei is here to stay, and they'll be part of the federal government within the next decade.

That I'm afraid I agree. Looking at this objectively, chances are becoming more and more better for them, as long as they do not rely on the protest vote. Speaking of which, remember the DVU, which thrived on the protest vote in the late 90's, only to go under the follwing elections. If the Linkspartei wants to consolidate itself on a federal plain, it has to stop relying on the protest votes they get in the west, and address also the needs of the mainstream voter in the West. The votes in the East alone already guarantees them seats in the Bundestag, but they need the people in the West to get more votes.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
By the way, regardless of who you voted for I do think that you (or any expat) should not have exerted your right to vote (read: should not have said right), but that's just my personal opinion (and I know we differ on that).

First, I could not vote because I was too late when I got to the embassy to renew my passport, and second why should we ex-pats (especially someone like me who's due to return home in 4 months) not exercise our right to vote? Hell, there are countries who are struggeling in introducing absentee ballots of people overseas. I know Costa Rica may introduce policy allow ex-pats to vote from the country they reside starting with the 2014 elections. And as far as German law is concerned, my understanding is that those who stay 25 years straight, or even longer, abroad (exceptions may apply if they live in a Schengen country, not sure though), lose the right to vote anyway.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
Anyway, it will be interesting if we will see a rejuvenation and total shake up of the Social Democrats or if they'll stay on their path of self destruction.

The SPD has been on the path of self-destruction ever since Willy Brandt was chancellor, and it was all because of a great amount of infighting that occured behind the scenes, which eventually hurt the party. It's a miracle they lasted this long, because neither Willy Brandt, nor Helmut Schmidt, as much as I honour them as two of the most important chancellors of our republic, were able to stop this.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
I WILL LEAVE THIS COUNTRY!

Fine, nobody is forcing you to stay. Our constitution guarantees free movement in and out of our country. After all, this isn't the DDR, where you'd face the firering squad even if you accidentally steped on the wrong side of the border.

I personally may disagree with many things our politicians do, but the only thing I do know is, because of what Germany gave me, my patriotism for my country is unbroken.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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LTU932
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:30 am

http://wahlarchiv.tagesschau.de/wahlen/2009-09-27-BT-DE/index.shtml

Here are the preliminary official final results or vorläufiges amtliches Endergebnis:

Votes/Stimmen:

Union (CDU/CSU): 33,8%
SPD: 23,0%
FDP: 14.6%
Linkspartei: 11,9%
Die Grünen: 10,7%
Andere/Others: 6,0% (Notable mention: The Piratenpartei with 1,95%)

Wins and losses/Gewinne und Verluste:

Union: -1,4
SPD: -11,2
FDP: +4,8
Linkspartei: +3,2
Die Grünen: +2,6
Andere/Others: +2,1

Seating distribution/Sitzverteilung:

Union: 239
SPD: 146
FDP: 93
Linkspartei: 76
Die Grünen: 68

Voter turnout/Wahlbeteiligung: 71%, down 7 points compared to 4 years ago.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:26 am



Quoting NA (Reply 14):
Did you ever speak to someone who had no chance than to live that way? And "fully health insured" means something different nowadays than 10 years ago when it still was really that way. And the places where many Harz4 people live are Slums in the waiting.

you have to look at things from a different angle. Like I said, ask a US homeless person hat she(he thinks about being "poor" in Germany. Fully health insured is that you get a heart operation if needed, bbiut ceretainly noit a botox or breat implants or other cosmetic stiuff.

A different angle also means that you have to take care of yourself, that is what people have forgot in this country. YOU are responsible for your well being, for your income, to improve your skills toi make an income in first place and to contribute to society. Nobody hgas a right to take it for granted to get from society. If peoplke think that society should take care of them ,well it's done here but they cannot expect a life in luxury for that, besides, even if you have little money to live on, nobody keeps you from sweeping your door steps and this improve your living conditions. That does not cost a cent.

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
I WILL LEAVE THIS COUNTRY!

BYE BYE, Cuba, North Korea, are beautiful countries to live. Have fun and enjoy yourself.
,

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 31):
You have never been close to being poor, so please don't call names from high up of your horse.

I never ever needed money from the state to get around. The country invested in my education and that was it, but I do not have a guarantee that I earn money next month, I work self-employed since 20 years and that, in Germany, means close to beeing poor each and every day. But may be you don't understand that.



Anyway, yesterday was a good day for Germany, we have the chance to starighjten out some mis-understanding the grand coalition and the SPD/Greens coalition put into people's minds over the past 11 years. We have to take our own fate into our hands and it is not a granted right to rely on society for welfare. Those who cannot do that because they are sick or impared for whatever reason have the full support of society and that remains under the new coalition, That has to be unerstood and that has to be made clear.

The people clearly voted for a CDU/FDP coalition , thay have a clear mandate for the next 4 years and that is the best thing that could happen in these days.

The potential of cabinet ministers is much better than that what the SPD could offer and ME AVN FAN and the Swiss people can joyfully celebrate the ousting of Mr. Steinbrueck. The finance ministry will likely go to the FDP in exchange for not getting the economics ressort.

Better even, the agony is over and we have something positive to look forward to.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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LTU932
Topic Author
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:26 am



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
The finance ministry will likely go to the FDP in exchange for not getting the economics ressort.

Makes sense, considering that the Union wants to keep Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg as Minister of the Economy. Is it also true what I'm hearing, that Guttenberg is highly popular with the people?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:54 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 19):
never knew which "side" Mrs. Merkel was on. Is she a conservative like Sarkozy or more like a socialist (left wing)?

I would describe her as a centrist, possibly close to Dominique de Villepin or Valéry Giscard d'Estaing.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 19):
a comfortable advance or will she have to make an alliiance

there will be an alliance of CDU/CSU with the FDP, which is THE centrist party of the world in a way
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:37 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 38):
there will be an alliance of CDU/CSU with the FDP, which is THE centrist party of the world in a way

At least it had been that once. Nowadays the FDP is a hard-right party regarding the economy with liberalism sprinkled on top just for those who can afford it financially, and to hell with everybody else.

In many ways they are the mirror image of the Linkspartei on the other extreme as far as the economy is concerned.

The old societal liberalism the FDP had once stood for is ancient history. Since 1982, to be exact.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:42 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 37):
Makes sense, considering that the Union wants to keep Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg as Minister of the Economy. Is it also true what I'm hearing, that Guttenberg is highly popular with the people?

He won his constituency with something like 68% . He is popular indeed, eloquent, good manners and surprisingly not the typical cliche of a politician. I think that he has a brilliant future. We need people in politics who are immune against ideology and do what needs to be done and not what a self appointed philisopher put down to paper some 150 years ago..

The socialists, marxists and communists of all kinds and shades are the real conservatives today.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Stratofish
Posts: 1043
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:09 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 33):
You know, policies in this country haven't changed much since 1949, no matter who was in charge. We have the Bundestag, the Bundesrat, the President, the Supreme Court - and the people.

What you describe is the "polity" sphere, but you are right, the people have not changed. That's the saddest part.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
The socialists, marxists and communists of all kinds and shades are the real conservatives today.

Does this mean those who put $$ and business interests first are the real progressives? The Socialists did not start the "Crisis" after all.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:36 am



Quoting Stratofish (Reply 41):
Does this mean those who put $$ and business interests first are the real progressives? The Socialists did not start the "Crisis" after all.

simple answer: Yes. Marxists theories do not create jobs The philosphy has failed wherever it was introduced and the umpteenth versions will fail over and over again.

Jobs and prosperity are created by business investments in fee enterrpsie only. The market as a whole never fails. Even in crisis days there are always prospering companies, simply because that what is apostrophed "capitalism" is the summary of millions of individuals making their own individual decisions every day. Market is a constant change adapting quickly to new circumstances. The marxists in China and Vietnam have that wisdom and the result is visible.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
na
Posts: 9830
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:19 am



Quoting Racko (Reply 30):
The Greens face one problem: Their politicians are Realos, their voters are Realos, but the party "base" are Fundis who like to make a mess of everything.

Well said. Its the stubborn unrealistic behavior of many of these Fundies which makes this party unvotable for me, when its about the Bundestag I mean.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
That I'm afraid I agree.

If the CDU/FDP government further pisses off the chanceless and abandoned, the "small" man, the non-career-minded and the ones not involved in the money-making businesses, as well as the ones like me who look at what is good for everybody, then I´m afraid that we´ll get the most leftist government next time Germany has ever seen.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
you get a heart operation if needed, bbiut ceretainly noit a botox or breat implants or other cosmetic stiuff.

Thats sarcastic and ignorant. You have no idea whats already going on. Sure you´ll get the life-saving emergency treatment, even the most expensive one, if you survive the waiting time. But if you have no money, you´ll also have ill-treated teeth, you´ll have to wait 6 weeks with backpain until you´re treated and so on. And the FDP will make it worse. I wish every FDP-voter to be jobless for a year to know how its like.

So what will Westerwelle be soon? Foreign secretary as always for the junior coalition partner? Then he would definitely prove to be a coward, because that has nothing to do with his party. He MUST become either Finance or Economy, or both together, if the FDP means what they said always. Otherwise they´ll be loosers from the beginning. I hope the FDP will get the post of minister for the Interior, because that wheelchair-guy who did it so far has been a pain in the a...
 
Wolverine
Posts: 380
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RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:01 pm

I didn't vote, as I didn't get an invitiation, which seems to happen sometimes, if a german citizen lives abroad. I think, Merkel is a good choice!

But everytime I hear her name, I got this old Stones song in my head: "Angie!!! AAAAnnnggiieee! When will those clouds all disappear??"  duck 
Face your fears, live your dreams! (No Fear)
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:07 pm



Quoting NA (Reply 43):
Thats sarcastic and ignorant. You have no idea whats already going on.

well, I do ceretainly not defend the system which was set-up by SPD Ulla Schmidt, which strongly resemles the DDR commando and plan economy. You are definately right that this what that lady has set-up in the past couple of years when she had the chance to worsen a once good system is bloody socialist rubbish but

Quoting NA (Reply 43):
And the FDP will make it worse. I wish every FDP-voter to be jobless for a year to know how its like.

no one can worsen that system set up by the Sozen and especially by Ms Ulla. Whoever gets to run the health ministry will improve the system and bear oin mind, the FDP will be a junior partner in the new govenrment. In any case, you were mssing my point totally. I said, that everybody in Germany has free health insurance, even if that person never ever in his life contributed a single cent to the costs. You cannot deny that, I did not say that this includes luxury. I pay over € 700,00 per month just for me in private health insurance and I donÄt run to the doctor when I have a cold.


I completely donÄt understand your bias against the FDP. Just alone their tax system is good for the average income people, those who really carry this country and those with children, with a deduction for each family member, not only mom and pop.

Fore those who are not familiar with Germany - here, people earning 1.4 times the average income are considered "rich" and pay the highest tax rate for each € earned over € 50.000 taxable income. This is a joke, by standard definition, "rich" means you can live from your net worth without working and that should at least be € 3 million.

Anyway, yesterday's election was good news in many ways, but the fact that Mrs Ulla Schmidt will never ever be able again to screw up the health system was ceretainly the highlight.

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Wolverine
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:54 am

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:21 pm

Face your fears, live your dreams! (No Fear)
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:22 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
no one can worsen that system set up by the Sozen and especially by Ms Ulla.

I just hope your shackles aren't chafing too badly and your Gulag overall can still keep you from freezing to death...!  Yeah sure
 
na
Posts: 9830
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:36 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
no one can worsen that system set up by the Sozen and especially by Ms Ulla

I´m not defending Mrs. Schmidt (who´s social mind has been proven by her car affair) and I´m not defending Schröder who´s 50% CDU policy and his "Im the friend of the bosses" is responsible for the SPD going downhill. If there ever has been a "system" been set up that is bad for Germany it has been Mr. Kohl, who is, before anyone else, responsible for the sad fact that the social classes in Germany are separating more and more. And I am very much afraid that this tendency will be further increased by the "me first" thinking of large parts of our new right-of-the-middle government. And I´m afraid we will all pay for it in the future, through social unrest and else.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
Fore those who are not familiar with Germany - here, people earning 1.4 times the average income are considered "rich" and pay the highest tax rate for each € earned over € 50.000 taxable income.

This is a very, very bad thing here, I agree. I´ve suffered from it since a long time.
But if you´re above 100.000/150.000 Euros a year, when life gets interesting, then there is no tax percentage increase anymore. Thats massively unfair. If the new government corrects this unfair treatment of the middleclass at the expense of those who can easily afford it and not at the expense of those who have nothing anyway, I´m fine. Somewhere the money has to come from, either from the real rich or from the poor, or by massively downsizing the state organisations. So which do you choose?
One thing I definitely choose is to get rid of the so-called solidarity tax, which was introduced for a few years ago, and which we still pay 20 years later.
And I strongly support any policy which will make the ones pay for the crisis who started it.
The stock exchange sharks and little fishes, the banks and the big industry.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 42):
Marxists theories do not create jobs

Agreed. Thats no option at all. That only is killing anything that is creating public wealth, so killing the only reason it was actually invented for.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Federal Elections In Germany Today

Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:47 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 47):
just hope your shackles aren't chafing too badly and your Gulag overall can still keep you from freezing to death...!

Thanks for the good wishes, mate. The political side you're on invented the Gulag and I know that you want to see liberals like me rott in there. Make a reservation for me in Hohenschoenhausen or Bautzen, should the SED ever take power again I will join the resistance.

Quoting NA (Reply 48):
Germany it has been Mr. Kohl, who is, before anyone else, responsible for the sad fact that the social classes in Germany are separating

This is plain and utter BS. Kohl and his buddy Norbert "Shorty" Blühm started the transition of the CDU into a social democratic party.

Quoting NA (Reply 48):
But if you´re above 100.000/150.000 Euros a year, when life gets interesting, then there is no tax percentage increase anymore. Thats massively unfair

No, its in line with the constitution, which demands that not more than 50% of the income goes to the state. The point is, we have to change the threshold where the taxation at the highest level starts to a more reasonable figure.

We cannot afford to level this at where it was in the 60s., however 5 times the average income fror the threshold would be a relief fpr the middle class already.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!

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