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N104UA
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:12 pm

Today the public option was voted down in the Sen. Finance Cmte but supporters are saying it is not dead but they wanted to test the waters to see which democrats actually support it
read it here : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0...-public-option-amend_n_303228.html

I also found this out today that more Americans believe in UFOs than oppose a public option
"OK, this is amazing: More people believe in UFOs than oppose the public health insurance option.1

Seriously, it's easier to find someone who thinks aliens are landing spaceships in our cornfields than someone who thinks we shouldn't create a public option to keep the insurance companies honest.

The insurance companies are basically the only ones who don't like the public option—which is probably why their industry is spending nearly $5 million per week trying to fight off health care reform in Congress.2
Outside of the Senate, insurance company boardrooms, and Area 51, the support for the public option is overwhelming.

At least two thirds of Americans want the choice of a public plan.3 Fully 73% of doctors, the people who see the moral and medical need up close every day, want a public option.4 And a majority of small-business owners, who know firsthand the economic case for health care reform, back it.5

Yet the health insurance companies—and some subset of the people who believe they've seen flying saucers—oppose it. And somehow, ridiculously, that's put the public option in danger in the Senate.
Sources:
1. "More Americans Believe In UFOs Than Oppose A Public Option," Media Matters, September 29, 2009
http://mediamattersaction.org/blog/200909290001

2. "Insurance and HMO Industries Spend Nearly $700,000 Per Day to Kill Health Care Reform Measures," Public Campaign Action Fund, September 15, 2009.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=84720&id=17382-9537458-z_2jyIx&t=6

3. "In Poll, Public Wary of Obama on War and Health," The New York Times, September 24, 2009
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/us/politics/25poll.html

4. "Poll Finds Most Doctors Support Public Option," National Public Radio, September 14, 2009
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=84786&id=17382-9537458-z_2jyIx&t=7

5."Small Business Owners Say Cutting Health Care Costs, Need for Reform are Top Concerns," Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, December 3, 2008
http://www.rwjf.org/pr/product.jsp?id=36550"
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
flanker
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:25 pm

Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
The insurance companies are basically the only ones who don't like the public option—

a load of crap. i am not an insurance company and i oppose it.

Btw, mediamatters and moveon.org are such great sources!  banghead 

[Edited 2009-09-29 16:38:31]
 
NIKV69
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:42 pm



Quoting Flanker (Reply 1):
moveon.org

Perhaps if the DNC stopped trying to keep them happy they would be better off.

What happened today is not a surprise. The public option is not going to happen as much as Nancy Pelosi is trying to scare you into believing it will.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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DocLightning
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:49 pm

Well, healthcare reform is dead.

Long live my insurance company. Long live having to dial 1-800-Mommy-may-I before I can prescribe my patients any medicines. Long live absurd hospital bills in spite of being insured. Long live the uninsured who can rack up bills that they can't pay!

I don't see how, other than some crazily excessive regulation, healthcare in this country can be reformed.

And so that is an other problem that America cannot fix for itself. One of many, many, many things that America used to be able to do and can no longer do.

My country once built coast-to-coast railroads, vast highway systems, robust banking and finance systems, jet planes, moon rockets, and lead the world in healthcare. Today, the railroads rust, the highways are pitted with holes and bridges that haven't yet collapsed are in danger of dong so, we can't even get a new jet flying, we haven't sent a man to the moon in about a half of a century now, our financial system is a mess, and our healthcare system, once second to none, is now the least efficient system in the world.

We were once a great country. We worry about China, Russia, terrorists. But our only enemy is...us. We are a fractured, divided country. And divided we fall.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Dreadnought
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:56 pm

Excellent news. Now we can get serious.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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Aaron747
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:57 pm



Quoting Flanker (Reply 1):
Btw, mediamatters and moveon.org are such great sources!

Nonsense - a New England Journal of Medicine poll found 62% of physicians support a mixed public/private system, with only 23% favoring the existing private options system. Unless you think all doctors are idiots or somehow lack knowledge of the issue, it's compelling information.

http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
ozglobal
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:57 pm



Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
Outside of the Senate, insurance company boardrooms, and Area 51, the support for the public option is overwhelming.

I love your post! This quote has been stashed away to be savored later! America has simply got to get this reform through or it will start to more resemble Romania or a failed African state than an OECD country on core matters society and the common good.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
NIKV69
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:18 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I don't see how, other than some crazily excessive regulation, healthcare in this country can be reformed

Well until Pelosi and Obama stop trying to pass something just to prove they can we won't. There are many other ways to do this including giving big and small business tax breaks who give employees health coverage but of course they won't because they have too much invested and losing is not an option. Even if it means passing a crap bill.

Quoting Flanker (Reply 1):
a load of crap. i am not an insurance company and i oppose it.

Yea but the people don't matter to the DNC. They just pretend they care about you.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
Flighty
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:21 am

Glad to see the insurance company propaganda successfully tricks us out of our health, just so they can make a few billion. It is possible that I could run a company that costs society $100 billion, profits me by $10 billion and I could run commercials fooling you that it's a good idea. Don't believe me, look at the health insurance industry today. We could care for ourselves much more cheaply if we had Canada's system. Even insured people in the USA have to worry about coverage. The perverse incentives on all sides are crippling not only health care, but people's families. But, of course, our companies have very powerful lobbying and public relations technology, so nothing will be done about these giant parasitic losses.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:27 am

I'm glad that some people up there in DC finally decided not to ram some more political pork down the American people's throat. I'm confused as to why people insist that everyone needs health care coverage. If I, as an individual, decide that I don't want to carry insurance on myself, don't I have that right? And I shouldn't be taxed because of that decision. Nor should I have to pay any penalty or whatever the Obama administration wants to call it.


Everyone seems to advocate this Canadian system. My question to them, is if they want it so much, why not move? No one is forcing you to stay in the US.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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DocLightning
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:27 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Excellent news. Now we can get serious.

Really? What other option do we have but to not do anything? Because guess what's about to happen? Nothing. Nothing at all.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):

Yea but the people don't matter to the DNC. They just pretend they care about you.

Yes. It's just that simple. They're really alien invaders in disguise, actually.

Alternatively, people who have such black/white views might just need to grow up.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
it will start to more resemble Romania or a failed African state

It already does, in some respects. Americans remember the golden days of the Cold War when we were great, unified, and could do anything. They think that if they just sit around and believe in America that we'll continue to be great. Unfortunately, it's settled into a camp of Reds and Blues who don't care about ANYTHING other than beating the other side.

And so the great American Empire falls, not with a crash, but with a soft sigh as it slowly deflates. If we can make it to the end of the century before it's formally declared dead, it will have been 300 years. Not much when stacked up against the Roman Empire, but not bad. Better than Spain or England, anyway.

No, this isn't about healthcare. It's about the government's inability to get ANYTHING done. Doesn't matter if one party controls the government, nothing gets done still.

We're sunk.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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dxing
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:28 am

Perhaps the time is near when they will scrap these plans altogether and do something smart. Figure out what they can afford and then craft a bill around that.

Unfortunately the public option is not dead. Reconcilliation can still see it ressurected from the ashes.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Aaron747
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:32 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Unfortunately the public option is not dead. Reconcilliation can still see it ressurected from the ashes.

I'm just confused as to why so many people want a private-only system to continue when physicians themselves clearly are opposed to it. 23% is a pretty slim minority.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
No, this isn't about healthcare. It's about the government's inability to get ANYTHING done. Doesn't matter if one party controls the government, nothing gets done still.

Point of the day. In most of the detailed polls on the subject, the primary responses indicate majority support for a public option but very little confidence in Congress, the President, or both. Clearly there is no overwhelming belief among the public that the government can successfully manage much of anything, on either side of the spectrum.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DocLightning
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:50 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):

Point of the day. In most of the detailed polls on the subject, the primary responses indicate majority support for a public option but very little confidence in Congress, the President, or both. Clearly there is no overwhelming belief among the public that the government can successfully manage much of anything, on either side of the spectrum.

Actually the Government works fine. The legislature, on the other hand...

Perhaps it is time for a new Constitutional Congress.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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N104UA
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:07 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 5):
a New England Journal of Medicine poll found 62% of physicians support a mixed public/private system, with only 23% favoring the existing private options system. Unless you think all doctors are idiots or somehow lack knowledge of the issue, it's compelling information.

Well the republicans think that those 62% are.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Excellent news. Now we can get serious.

Yes we can get serious about making sure everyone in America has affordable health care and the choice between the Public Option and a Private Insurance Company, this failing is just the beginning.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 6):
America has simply got to get this reform through or it will start to more resemble Romania or a failed African state than an OECD country on core matters society and the common good.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I don't see how, other than some crazily excessive regulation, healthcare in this country can be reformed.

Maybe we can ask:
Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Iceland, The United Kingdom, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Trinidad and Tobago, Cuba, Panama, Uruguay, Belgium, Germany, The Netherlands, Austria, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Russia, Greece, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Qatar, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Japan, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Malta, Georgia, Hungary, Singapore, Taiwan, Israel, China, UAE,
and Iraq and Afghanstan have universal Health Care paid for with UNITED STATES WAR FUNDING, also remember that at Gitmo all inmates have universal health care, we are giving terrorists A+ health care but will not give it to working citizens

Maybe if we ask them they could help us I know that especially France does not have excessive regulation and most French LOVE the care

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 9):
I'm confused as to why people insist that everyone needs health care coverage.

Maybe because it is a basic human right.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 9):
If I, as an individual, decide that I don't want to carry insurance on myself, don't I have that right?

Yes but if something happens to you and you go to the emergency room they are required to treat you and will treat you but if you can not pay the hospital submits it to the government so then the taxpayers will pay the bill

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 9):
Everyone seems to advocate this Canadian system. My question to them, is if they want it so much, why not move?

If you move to Canada you do not automatically have health care, and would you up route your life to move to somewhere if we do get Universal Health Care

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
It already does, in some respects. Americans remember the golden days of the Cold War when we were great, unified, and could do anything.

The only reason we were unified was because we were scared S*$&less of nuclear war, and do you remember the Vietnam War (about a period of 15 years) and the two sides on that in the U.S.

Quoting DXing (Reply 11):
Unfortunately the public option is not dead. Reconcilliation can still see it ressurected from the ashes.

I think you had a typo it is spelled "Fortunately" you had a "un" before it. Big grin
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
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LAXintl
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:08 am

 bigthumbsup Excellent.

Now if we can get rid of the rest of the crappy "reform" ideas we're set.

Last thing I would ever want in America is to live under government health system. I did that long enough in Europe, and never again. I'll happily fund and manage my own health care options.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Dreadnought
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:10 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Really? What other option do we have but to not do anything? Because guess what's about to happen? Nothing. Nothing at all.

If that's what the Dems want, yes (and I expect that the far-left Dems will want to prevent ANY reform from passing without a public plan).

But now that the public option is out, we can start talking about some strict regulation of the insurance sector, including a flattening of rates, definition of basic insurance package standards, restrictions on their ability to deny payment for pre-existing conditions, removal of interstate barriers to competition and so on and so forth. You could probably put those regulations on 10 pages. And yes, I support an individual mandate.
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Maverick623
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:13 am



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 9):

Everyone seems to advocate this Canadian system. My question to them, is if they want it so much, why not move? No one is forcing you to stay in the US.

Yes, because it's just oh-so-easy to migrate to another country.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
ual777
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:16 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):

And so the great American Empire falls, not with a crash, but with a soft sigh as it slowly deflates. If we can make it to the end of the century before it's formally declared dead, it will have been 300 years. Not much when stacked up against the Roman Empire, but not bad. Better than Spain or England, anyway.

I think we will be fine if the idiots in DC. If the US falls it will not be because of a lack of universal health care.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):

My country once built coast-to-coast railroads, vast highway systems, robust banking and finance systems, jet planes, moon rockets, and lead the world in healthcare. Today, the railroads rust, the highways are pitted with holes and bridges that haven't yet collapsed are in danger of dong so, we can't even get a new jet flying, we haven't sent a man to the moon in about a half of a century now, our financial system is a mess, and our healthcare system, once second to none, is now the least efficient system in the world.

The U.S. Army just made a breakthrough last week with an AIDS vaccine, the 787 is one of the most ambitious airliners ever designed, and our highways, bridges, and railroads are fine.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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Dreadnought
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:19 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 17):
Yes, because it's just oh-so-easy to migrate to another country.

Actually, look what's happening in Canada.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...canada27-2009sep27,0,5111855.story

Quote:
Hoping to capitalize on patients who might otherwise go to the U.S. for speedier care, a network of technically illegal private clinics and surgical centers has sprung up in British Columbia, echoing a trend in Quebec. In October, the courts will be asked to decide whether the budding system should be sanctioned.

More than 70 private health providers in British Columbia now schedule simple surgeries and tests such as MRIs with waits as short as a week or two, compared with the months it takes for a public surgical suite to become available for nonessential operations.

Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
PPVRA
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:59 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I don't see how, other than some crazily excessive regulation, healthcare in this country can be reformed.

That's what Massachusetts did, and they have the most expensive premiums around.

I downloaded into Excel HC insurance premium data for the US, by state, from these guys and next to it, put a regulatory environment index created by these guys.

The results weren't surprising. I'd post the whole table here but I think copyright would be an issue.

I personally didn't mind a public option, in theory anyways, but regulations  no 
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Dreadnought
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:17 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):

I personally didn't mind a public option, in theory anyways, but regulations

I'm the reverse.

Now, I have ranted many times on this forum about regulation, but let's recognize that there are 2 types of regulation - 1) Useful, necessary regulation designed to ensure a competitive market safe and beneficial for employees and customers, and 2) useless crap regulation that require constant monitoring and are generally there to provide statistics to a government bureaucrat or help the friend of a senator or something like that.

I work in a heavily regulated industry, Telecom, and the regulatory crap is astounding. 90% of it is completely useless crap. Why does the government need to know every damned month how many minutes of use our customers spent on the phone between Georgia and Oregon? New York and Florida? Why do they need to know every month how much data was pulled/pushed through our dialup network? I could go on and on, and the states add even more crap. Why do they have to OK every traffic exchange agreement we get into with other telecom companies?

Stop it!!! Cut out 90% of the useless regulations, and then reinforce the useful regulations that can make a difference.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
PPVRA
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:22 am

Here's the table:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...m2iTdV0BvFldASxrWe0seg&output=html

Sorted from most expensive to least expensive family premium in 2008. Colors represent states based on the 2008 Presidential results, while the colors in the Index are divided between regulatory burden levels. While there are examples all over the map, there is a trend of more regulation = higher premiums.

PS: not saying getting rid of these will fix everything.

[Edited 2009-09-29 19:25:08]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:28 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):

My biggest issue with regulation are regulations of economic nature. Having a giant APR stamped in the credit card offer or anti-legalese regs or even the likes of the FAA and what not don't really bother me.

Those, and unnecessary regs too, like the ones you mentioned.

[Edited 2009-09-29 19:43:01]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Pyrex
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:46 am



Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
The insurance companies are basically the only ones who don't like the public option—which is probably why their industry is spending nearly $5 million per week trying to fight off health care reform in Congress.2

From the Associated Press, hardly a biased source

"According to Evan Tracey, who heads a private data tracking company called the Campaign Media Analysis Group, about $47 million has been spent for ads favoring a health overhaul and $32 million has gone to opposing the effort. The rest has been spent on commercials that generally mention the issues."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090930/...p_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

So the big bad insurance companies are actually spending less money than the AFL-CIOs of this world. Funny, hum?

Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
Outside of the Senate, insurance company boardrooms, and Area 51, the support for the public option is overwhelming.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Not that I am surprised into seeing a "liberal" make blanket statements about people who oppose them, but anyway. Think as I think and all that, heh?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
and our healthcare system, once second to none, is now the least efficient system in the world.

Today I had to go to the hospital because of a swine flu scare at my job (since I was coughing and was given two days off work I thought, heh, why the hell not?). It took me a grand total of two hours to get into and out of the hospital (which I consider very low, since I only had a minor case of the sniffles, and way shorter than it would have been in Portugal under similar circumstances). I paid a total of zero dollars and zero cents for this privilege (and believe me, I should have paid something since I was basically abusing the ER). At the end of the month 1.25% of my paycheck will go to pay the insurance company, which is way less than what I would have paid in Portugal through my taxes. Even if my employer puts in double of what I put in myself, it will still have been cheaper given the quality of care.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Really? What other option do we have but to not do anything?

Allow insurance companies to compete nationally (break down state-mandated local monopolies), implement effective tort reform so an OBGYN in Florida does not have to pay $200,000 a year in malpractice insurance, reduce the power of the AMA to control access to the profession, allow for 5 or 6 year medicine courses straight out of high-school (as pretty much anywhere else in the world) instead of the 4+4+whatever ridiculousness that exists in the U.S., etc. etc. etc.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Alternatively, people who have such black/white views might just need to grow up.

Oh, you mean like people who claim that people that are against their views are either insurance company execs or crazy UFO abductees? (Seriously, how the hell did he come up with that conclusion? A greater than B therefore all B are A? That logic does not compute).

Quoting N104UA (Reply 14):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 9):
I'm confused as to why people insist that everyone needs health care coverage.

Maybe because it is a basic human right.

Which article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is that in, exactly?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):

Is that article for real? That seriously freaked me out. It is illegal in Canada for any medical service not paid for by the government to be rendered? How the hell is that even legal?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
That's what Massachusetts did, and they have the most expensive premiums around.

Massachusetts has the most expensive everything around. MA is a state that basically hates consumers so under the guise of "regulation" manages to screw people in all ways possible, from car insurance to taxi rides.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Go3Team
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:56 am

Good.

A friend of mine covered by the VA had to wait weeks to get an ultrasound.

I went in to the emergency room and had one done within hours.

After all that, my co pay was $700 on a ~ $60,000 hospital bill.

Having that piece of mind is worth the premiums I pay every week.
Yay Pudding!
 
DiamondFlyer
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:40 am



Quoting N104UA (Reply 14):

Maybe because it is a basic human right.

Basic human right or not, if I decide that I don't want it, you can't force it on me.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 14):

Yes but if something happens to you and you go to the emergency room they are required to treat you and will treat you but if you can not pay the hospital submits it to the government so then the taxpayers will pay the bill

Perhaps the rules need to be changed. If you are willing to roll without health care coverage, you have to understand the risks and associated costs.

I'm sorry, but when the government starts forcing me to do something, a line has been crossed. Look at things that the government already has mandated insurance in (automobiles). In some states, more than half of the people don't have the MANDATED level of coverage. So, what makes you think that the government telling me what I have to do for health insurance is going to work? This new "have to have health care" for everyone crap, is nothing more than an attempt to redistribute the wealth of the nation.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
sccutler
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:16 am

It's funny how this whole debate has been, and continues to be, anchored by a false predicate- that government is capable of creating, funding and running a functional health-care delivery system.

It is not.

By its nature, government (especially at the national level) is ineffective and corrupt. They do almost nothing effectively, and of that small quantum, they do nothing at all well.

Note well:

Congress always exempts itself from the effect of the laws which it passes. They will not, under any circumstance, be subject to this, either.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
N104UA
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:30 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
"liberal"

If by Liberal, you mean someone who looks ahead and not behind; someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions; someone who cares about the welfare of the people, their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties; someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicion that grips us; if that is what they mean by liberal, I AM PROUD TO BE A LIBERAL

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
Today I had to go to the hospital because of a swine flu scare at my job (since I was coughing and was given two days off work I thought, heh, why the hell not?). It took me a grand total of two hours to get into and out of the hospital (which I consider very low, since I only had a minor case of the sniffles, and way shorter than it would have been in Portugal under similar circumstances). I paid a total of zero dollars and zero cents for this privilege (and believe me, I should have paid something since I was basically abusing the ER). At the end of the month 1.25% of my paycheck will go to pay the insurance company, which is way less than what I would have paid in Portugal through my taxes. Even if my employer puts in double of what I put in myself, it will still have been cheaper given the quality of care.

But what would have happened if your employer did not offer you insurance.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
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LAXintl
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:39 am



Quoting N104UA (Reply 29):
But what would have happened if your employer did not offer you insurance.

You can purchase your own.

For over 10 years now, I have funded my own and families plans regardless of what employers might be offering.

There is plenty of choice out there with a smorgasbord of companies and plans to choose from.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Pyrex
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:49 am



Quoting N104UA (Reply 29):
If by Liberal, you mean someone who looks ahead and not behind; someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions; someone who cares about the welfare of the people, their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, their civil liberties; someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicion that grips us; if that is what they mean by liberal, I AM PROUD TO BE A LIBERAL

No, I put liberal in quotation marks because a liberal is someone who loves freedom, which is something people like you hate. You hate giving people choices, be it over their own health, their education or even what they can and cannot do with their money. So you, sir, are no liberal.

Oh, and I think you meant "welcomes new ideas from people who think like me. Otherwise, I will just call them crazy UFO abductees and be done with it". But then again, what can you expect from someone who thinks they have a monopoly on "progress", compassion and human rights?

Quoting N104UA (Reply 29):
But what would have happened if your employer did not offer you insurance.

I would have bought my own. And if insurance companies had been allowed to compete across state borders, trial lawyers had been taken down a notch through tort reform and competition had been promoted in health care delivery through reductions of the barriers to entry to the medical profession, I would have paid even less. And if I was between jobs I would have taken COBRA.
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N104UA
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:00 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 30):
You can purchase your own.

For over 10 years now, I have funded my own and families plans regardless of what employers might be offering.

There is plenty of choice out there with a smorgasbord of companies and plans to choose from.

But what if you could get it cheaper because of a government option, either you buying a government option or insurance companies dropping rates because of competetion

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):
No, I put liberal in quotation marks because a liberal is someone who loves freedom, which is something people like you hate. You hate giving people choices, be it over their own health, their education or even what they can and cannot do with their money. So you, sir, are no liberal.

I love Freedom, that is why I want people to be free by allowing them to CHOOSE (a have choice) between a Government run plan and private insurance. and with education I support being able to chose education and look private universities are not suffering because of public universities. I will let people choose but I also want to give the EVERY option and a Public Option is just that an OPTION. and sir if you are saying I am not a liberal then you are saying that the late great Sen. Kennedy not a liberal, because that was a direct quote from him.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
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DocLightning
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:11 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 31):

No, I put liberal in quotation marks because a liberal is someone who loves freedom, which is something people like you hate. You hate giving people choices, be it over their own health, their education or even what they can and cannot do with their money. So you, sir, are no liberal.

If you are poor and cannot afford health insurance, then you have no freedom, do you?

So I would argue that you hate freedom. You think that you should get preferential treatment for people being lucky enough to fall out of the right womb. I disagree. I believe that all people have a right to healthcare and an education. And I fail to understand why the U.S.A. is the only first-world country in the entire world that doesn't guarantee healthcare to all of its citizens.
-Doc Lightning-

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-Carl Sagan
 
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LAXintl
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:16 am



Quoting N104UA (Reply 32):
But what if you could get it cheaper because of a government option, either you buying a government option or insurance companies dropping rates because of competetion

Not interested, or worth the risk. I'm extremely satisfied with the coverage we have and find it a good value.

I've already experienced a government options overseas and have enough personal and family experience to never want to fall under any such schemes again.


Ultimately all this health brouhaha is doing is to risk and ultimately experimenting with the health care for the 90% of Americans that have coverage(of which the majority are satisfied with their plans), for the sake of creating something for the 10% that do not have coverage.

Talk about terrible public policy!
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DocLightning
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:20 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 34):

Not interested, or worth the risk. I'm extremely satisfied with the coverage we have and find it a good value.

That's fine. And you're free to continue doing that. To deny others a public option is contrary to any claims to humanity or freedom that those who oppose this make.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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LAXintl
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:37 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
To deny others a public option is contrary to any claims to humanity or freedom that those who oppose this make.

The US government and tax payers do not need to be ever growing a charitable organization that dictate, let alone funds blanket health coverage.

Obviously we have a philosophical difference in view, but in the most basic terms, I WILL flight not to loose the choice I enjoy today nor will accept the government to be involved with or decide the form, timing, or availability of health coverage I might wish to purchase or access.
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L-188
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:38 am

The defeat of this in commitee was just a victory in the war.

For those of you who think a private option will increase competition I would point out that there is a public option for flood insurance. Have you ever tried to find private flood insurance these days.

The public option destroyed the choice.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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centrair
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:56 am

I wonder ...

What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who loose their job and the care that came with it?

What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who have pre-conditions and cannot get health care?

Why are so many people against the golden rule at its core? Are we afraid of taking care of our neighbors?

Health care is not a commodity. If you think it is, then you are cold hearted and I hope you nor anyone in your family ever have any pre-conditions.

Who here is in the military?
- You have government health care

Anyone on Medicare?
- You have government health insurance

Anyone voted for a person working in public office? (senator, rep, mayor, governor)
- they have government run health insurance

So if the republicans and conservatives are so against government health care innitiatives and public OPTION (we seem to forget the meaning of option...I guess it means required now) for anyone to tap...why don't they just cut their own health care off.

Why not cut Medicare?
Why not cut the VA?
Why not cut Military health?
Why not cut the congressional health plan?

Today Chuck Schumer asked Orrin Hatch if he was against Medicare. Hatch said he wasn't as it was in the fabric of the society like Social Security.

Funny. Medicare and Social Security. Two huge government run programs that take care of people. When those programs were introduced Republicans called them "Socialized" and "Communist". The whole term "Socialized medicine" was made to fight medicare and the social security system. Now..."Part of the social fabric".

So I ask those here on this thread who are so against the public option.
What is your suggestion for reforming health care?
What is your idea on how to help those who lost their jobs along with their coverage in the downturn?
What is your idea for bringing down the overall cost of health insurance?
And what about those pre-conditions.

If the government passed a bill that put regulations down on companies stating they have to provide coverage for anyone regardless of pre-conditions. Would you support it or not?

Where is our common ground? Is there a common ground?

I tend to hope so but from what I read and see it is currently just a lot of spitting in the faces of the founding father's belief that we should "promote the general Welfare". Meaning "[t]he health of the people was in the minds of our forefathers."[19] "[T]he concerted effort for renewal and expansion of hospital and medical care centers as a part of our nation's system of hospitals, is as a public service and use within the highest meaning of such terms. Surely this is in accord with an objective of the United States Constitution: ‘* * * promote the general Welfare.’" (Ellis v. City of Grand Rapids, 257 F. Supp. 564 (W.D. Mich. 1966)) - Wikipedia: Preamble to the United States Constitution

P.S. I live in Japan and have public insurance and Gibralter (prudential) health/life insurance. Hm. I guess the two can go together. Grassley is afraid that if there is a public options, private insurance companies will go out of business. Priority is?
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LAXintl
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:38 am



Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who loose their job and the care that came with it?

I cant speak for the Republican Party, but in my view society does not need to fund health insurance as a basic social contract or birth right.

Yes if you are dying an Emergency room will see you, but beyond that government is not your nanny.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who have pre-conditions and cannot get health care?

Listen, I have never heard of financially sustainable insurance model without being able to do a proper risk assessment.

If you force companies to cover regardless of what conditions people might have, then obviously everyone premiums must rise to cover higher expected payouts.

Its simple, just like car insurance. You have a DUI, poor driving record you might not find instance, and if you do it will be higher cost.
There is an entire line of insurance products that are in business serving the consumer and offering the lowest possible rates as they only accept low risk individuals.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
Health care is not a commodity. If you think it is, then you are cold hearted and I hope you nor anyone in your family ever have any pre-conditions.

Health care is certainly a commodity, and will be so under a government plan.

Health care will be managed in any government system. Its not a carte-blance service, but a commodity that will be one manner or another rationed out.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
public OPTION (we seem to forget the meaning of option...

But see its not an Option. That is part of the problem.

The government is telling private insurance companies how they must run their systems, telling consumers they must purchase insurance or face fines (last number I heard was $3000). Where is the option in that?

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
If the government passed a bill that put regulations down on companies stating they have to provide coverage for anyone regardless of pre-conditions. Would you support it or not?

Absolutely not. Again I don't see that a company should be forced to provide health care, 401k options, child care etc.

Each business and industry has its own unique challenges any potential health care benefit packages should be decided on individual company basis, not in D.C.

Myself, I am a small business, and certainly wont be looking to hire if I have to fund $10,000's annually on new or added charges.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
live in Japan and have public insurance and Gibralter (prudential) health/life insurance. Hm. I guess the two can go together. Grassley is afraid that if there is a public options, private insurance companies will go out of business. Priority is?

Yes this is pretty sad actually, dont you think?
Same in Europe, where more and more people are acquiring supplemental insurance as the national programs leave much to be desired and folks are demand better options.

Talk about basically double paying, once via taxes, and second time for the supplemental insurance on the side. I say just keep the money yourself, and fund your own insurance right off the bat, and forgo the government playing the middle man broker and doctor.
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centrair
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:54 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):
Same in Europe, where more and more people are acquiring supplemental insurance as the national programs leave much to be desired and folks are demand better options.

Talk about basically double paying, once via taxes, and second time for the supplemental insurance on the side. I say just keep the money yourself, and fund your own insurance right off the bat, and forgo the government playing the middle man broker and doctor.

Just so I am clear you do not believe in ANY public health care system then including medicare, the VA system, Congressional health and Military health care.
Yes or no. These people should be just like everyone else and use private companies then?
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Pyrex
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:57 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
If you are poor and cannot afford health insurance, then you have no freedom, do you?

And how would the public option change that? Or would the public "option" be free to anyone who enrolls in it? No way you can clame afterwards that the public option would not destroy private schemes.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 37):
For those of you who think a private option will increase competition I would point out that there is a public option for flood insurance. Have you ever tried to find private flood insurance these days.

Correct. Ah, the government, the great underpricers of risk. Same (or soon to be the same) for hurricanes in Florida, forest fires in California, etc. Of course, when the big one does hit, the government-run insurance schemes that have absolutely no reserves will become insolvent but who cares about that, we will just jack up taxes again.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who loose their job and the care that came with it?

It already exists, it's called COBRA.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who have pre-conditions and cannot get health care?

Wasn't there almost a consensus regarding that provision in the healthcare bill across the aisle? Didn't hear many Republicans complain against that one...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):
Same in Europe, where more and more people are acquiring supplemental insurance as the national programs leave much to be desired and folks are demand better options.

Talk about basically double paying, once via taxes, and second time for the supplemental insurance on the side.

Yup. Just like parents who have to put their kids in private schools because the public ones in their area suck.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 40):
Just so I am clear you do not believe in ANY public health care system then including medicare, the VA system, Congressional health and Military health care.

Where did anyone say that? They are employees of the government so, just as other companies, if their employers think that providing their employees whith healthcare benefits for morale, retention, etc. is necessary then so be it. And the VA system is a public OBLIGATION to the people that were injured defending the country. Yes, it is a damn good one, but only because in it cost is absolutely not a consideration. There is no way government can afford to give anyone the same quality of care as in the VA.
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Aaron747
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:10 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):

Talk about basically double paying, once via taxes, and second time for the supplemental insurance on the side. I say just keep the money yourself, and fund your own insurance right off the bat, and forgo the government playing the middle man broker and doctor.

There is no double-paying via taxes in the Japanese system. You pay directly into a fixed-premium scheme depending on family size and your type of employment. It is single-payer by its most firm definition. I don't pay a second time for supplemental insurance because my employer and most other firms over 200 employees offer it as a social benefit for the well-being of their staff. So when I come home from the hospital, having paid my 30% with the government taking care of the remaining 70, I am fully covered as I then submit a claim to my private insurer and provided that I haven't falsified anything or are otherwise ineligible, receive a full reimbursement for the remaining 30%. That's 100% coverage.

I haven't double-paid for anything - it's a fantastic system. If you don't want to pay the Kenko Hoken premiums, then you don't really have to - you just need to have the cash on hand to pay 100% for whatever services are rendered to you at a clinic or hospital. If you don't have it, there are, of course, penalties.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 39):
telling consumers they must purchase insurance or face fines (last number I heard was $3000). Where is the option in that?

Since when is option such a nebulous concept? If you can afford private insurance, you purchase that. If you can't, you get on the public option. Either way, you're insured - that's the goal. Since you're on about double-paying, why should we continue to accept a status quo where taxpayers are getting stiffed with bills for hospitals that are getting stiffed by uninsured people who come into their ERs?? We're already double-paying as it is. Much better to have everyone insured so that nonsense can come to a stop. ERs should not be closing due to inability to be reimbursed for their services by local governments - not in the United States of America anyway.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N104UA
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Public Health Option Defeated in Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:35 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 35):
Obviously we have a philosophical difference in view, but in the most basic terms, I WILL flight not to loose the choice I enjoy today nor will accept the government to be involved with or decide the form, timing, or availability of health coverage I might wish to purchase or access.

If you love your insurance you will not be forced to change and and you will still have a choice.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 36):
For those of you who think a private option will increase competition I would point out that there is a public option for flood insurance. Have you ever tried to find private flood insurance these days.

30 seconds on a google search http://www.allstate.com/home-insurance/flood-insurance-main.aspx

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):

What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who loose their job and the care that came with it?

They don't have one

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):
What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who have pre-conditions and cannot get health care?

If they have a precondition it is their fault.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):
Why are so many people against the golden rule at its core? Are we afraid of taking care of our neighbors?

I ask myself the same question all the time

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):
If you think it is, then you are cold hearted and I hope you nor anyone in your family ever have any pre-conditions.

I am the same way

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):

Who here is in the military?
- You have government health care

This is Single Payer and one of the best in the country

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):
Anyone on Medicare?
- You have government health insurance

And a very good plan at that

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):

So if the republicans and conservatives are so against government health care innitiatives and public OPTION (we seem to forget the meaning of option...I guess it means required now) for anyone to tap...why don't they just cut their own health care off.

They just say all for me and none for you and that is their option

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):

Why not cut Medicare?
Why not cut the VA?
Why not cut Military health?
Why not cut the congressional health plan?

Yes I think they should if they do not pass a Public Option

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):
Today Chuck Schumer asked Orrin Hatch if he was against Medicare. Hatch said he wasn't as it was in the fabric of the society like Social Security.

They were saying the same things about Medicare in the 1960s and Social Security in the 1930s and now they love it.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 37):
Grassley is afraid that if there is a public options, private insurance companies will go out of business. Priority is?

No he is afraid that the health insurance companies will stop giving him campaign contributions

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
What is the republican plan for providing health care to those who loose their job and the care that came with it?

I cant speak for the Republican Party, but in my view society does not need to fund health insurance as a basic social contract or birth right.

Yes if you are dying an Emergency room will see you, but beyond that government is not your nanny.

Well then you support a form of Government health care but there is no way to pay for it, with a public option there would be a way to pay for it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):

Listen, I have never heard of financially sustainable insurance model without being able to do a proper risk assessment.

If you force companies to cover regardless of what conditions people might have, then obviously everyone premiums must rise to cover higher expected payouts.

Its simple, just like car insurance. You have a DUI, poor driving record you might not find instance, and if you do it will be higher cost.
There is an entire line of insurance products that are in business serving the consumer and offering the lowest possible rates as they only accept low risk individuals.

There is your DEATH PANEL, they would rather make a profit then see people get better

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):
But see its not an Option. That is part of the problem.

YES IT IS AN OPTION, if you like your insurance you will not be forced to change.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
Pyrex
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RE: Public Health Option Voted Down In Senate Finance Committee

Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:16 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 41):
I don't pay a second time for supplemental insurance because my employer and most other firms over 200 employees offer it as a social benefit for the well-being of their staff.

You really believe that, don't you? Typical Democrats, to believe that a cost that is forced onto someone else will not eventually roll down to them. I am sure that in a few months/years they will act all surprised that the penalties they are imposing on insurance companies now suddenly translate into higher premiums. The law of unintended consequences somehow doesn't seem to apply to the decisions they make.

Listen, I am going to go through this only once. So just because your employer pays that for you where do you think the money comes from? Mid-air? No, it comes straight out of your pay-check, through the form of reduced salary, just as social security benefits borne by employers do. Employers will look at all costs incurred with an employee to make their hiring and compensation decisions, not just your gross wage.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 42):
30 seconds on a google search http://www.allstate.com/home-insuran....aspx

And another 15 seconds of actually reading the link you posted would have made you realize that is simply the administration of a Federal program, not private flood insurance.
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slider
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RE: Public Health Option Voted Down In Senate Finance Committee

Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:18 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
My country once built coast-to-coast railroads, vast highway systems, robust banking and finance systems, jet planes, moon rockets, and lead the world in healthcare. Today, the railroads rust, the highways are pitted with holes and bridges that haven't yet collapsed are in danger of dong so, we can't even get a new jet flying, we haven't sent a man to the moon in about a half of a century now, our financial system is a mess, and our healthcare system, once second to none, is now the least efficient system in the world.

We were once a great country. We worry about China, Russia, terrorists. But our only enemy is...us. We are a fractured, divided country. And divided we fall.

The Academy Award goes to....Doc Lightning!!

I'm sure with a dramatic performance like that you could secure a role in Roman Polanski's next film. Such histrionics!

I could pick apart each and every one of your points, but it's not even worth the trouble. Face it—this was a horrible bill that they tried to rush through, it was poorly conceived, ill-written, even more poorly communicated and sold. No tort reform is included in it and there are no hard caps on what it will cost. The whole thing was an abortion of the legislative process and it deserved to go bye-bye.

If you want true reform, let’s have that discussion. But after MONTHS on this forum and countless others in the public arena, I never hear real tangible and intellectually driven responses from liberals…just wailing and gnashing of teeth such as your epic post above. C’mon Doc, you can do better than that…
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Public Health Option Defeated In Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:22 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 44):

I could pick apart each and every one of your points, but it's not even worth the trouble. Face it—this was a horrible bill that they tried to rush through, it was poorly conceived, ill-written, even more poorly communicated and sold. No tort reform is included in it and there are no hard caps on what it will cost. The whole thing was an abortion of the legislative process and it deserved to go bye-bye.

Fine. Even if you're correct, why couldn't a GOOD bill have been written?

This is why we will never build a new runway in our most congested cities or upgrade the ATC system or build high-speed rail. Because if it's a Republican's idea, a Democrat will block it and vice-versa.

Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
But after MONTHS on this forum and countless others in the public arena, I never hear real tangible and intellectually driven responses from liberals…

Plenty of them. You never read them.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
PPVRA
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RE: Public Health Option Voted Down In Senate Finance Committee

Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:28 pm



Quoting N104UA (Reply 42):

There is your DEATH PANEL, they would rather make a profit then see people get better

This comment is ignorant on so many levels.

Public employees don't exactly give a rats ass about anyone, do they? A while back we had a video posted of a woman who died in a NYC public hospital in the waiting room because no one, including some of the employees, came to her help. You may care about people getting better, as I do, but I sure as hell know that civil servants don't. They care about their over-paid job, with huge benefits, low-work hours, lots of vacation time, and taking their time to accomplish their jobs.

You point to just one side of the story with that quote. The other, of course, is that patients will demand adequate care or drop the plan for another one who does offer proper care. This is exactly what solves the problem of the worhtless public employee.

Oh and btw, talking about risk has nothing to do with dropping coverage or "people getting better". Insurance is a tool and each tool has appropriate uses.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Public Health Option Defeated In Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:06 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 43):

Listen, I am going to go through this only once. So just because your employer pays that for you where do you think the money comes from? Mid-air? No, it comes straight out of your pay-check, through the form of reduced salary, just as social security benefits borne by employers do. Employers will look at all costs incurred with an employee to make their hiring and compensation decisions, not just your gross wage.

That and 100% reimbursement for commute costs as well, help with home mortgages, subsidized rent and a host of other benefits are all standard reasons why Japanese salaries tend to be 15-20% lower than they are for comparable American positions in areas with similar cost of living. The savings rate is still higher here so it doesn't seem to be an incredible problem. The point is, things are done differently here, most people like the way things are, and I haven't had any problem with it worth writing home about.

Please, we are all educated working people here - there's no need to post in a paternal finger-wagging manner as if you're talking to a fifth grader learning the ways of the world.  Yeah sure

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 43):
You really believe that, don't you? Typical Democrats, to believe that a cost that is forced onto someone else will not eventually roll down to them.

Not a Democrat, but thanks for making an assumption. We all know very well what that word implies otherwise.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22149
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Public Health Option Defeated In Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:40 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 46):
Public employees don't exactly give a rats ass about anyone, do they? A while back we had a video posted of a woman who died in a NYC public hospital in the waiting room because no one, including some of the employees, came to her help.

Actually, that was Los Angeles. And the reason it happened is because the hospital wasn't adequately funded so that they could afford to offer applicants a decent salary. The result? Good applicants went elsewhere. Substandard applicants who were somehow capable of watching someone die on a floor without doing their jobs got hired.

I should know. I've worked in public hospitals. The problem isn't that they're Government, the problem is that they're under-funded because the GOP keeps cutting the funding for health and education and then wonders why our kids are sick and can't read.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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LAXintl
Posts: 25266
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Public Health Option Defeated In Sen. Finance Cmte

Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:05 pm



Quoting Centrair (Reply 39):
Just so I am clear you do not believe in ANY public health care system then including medicare, the VA system, Congressional health and Military health care.
Yes or no. These people should be just like everyone else and use private companies then?

Out of principle I oppose the government being in the medical business.

The Congressional and military health systems are more akin to a company providing a benefit in return for service. I'm suspect of these benefits, and assume they might be provided better or cheaper overall on the open market, not udner government umbrella.

Medicare on the other hand is a insurance program. Is it really needed? I dont think so. Look at my parents, they continued to have private health care(which they paid for) until turning 65, when Uncle Sam starting picking up the bill. Why I ask? Why cant what they had at 64, work at 66?

But regardless of how I feel about these plans, we have them and will live with it for now.

I however will not idly sit around and let the government shove these nirvana health care concepts down on me or my family. I simply dont see it benefiting myself, or America.
Quite to the contrary my experience tells it will diminish my health care and sadle the nation with a terrible financial burden.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 41):
I haven't double-paid for anything

Sure you do. One way or the other you subsidized the system with taxes.

Then for those private companies that provide coverage as a "social benefit for the well-being of their staff", you pay for it via higher cost for good and services.
The companies dont eat the cost, they pass it on to the consumer.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 42):
If you love your insurance you will not be forced to change and and you will still have a choice.



Quoting N104UA (Reply 42):
YES IT IS AN OPTION, if you like your insurance you will not be forced to change.

The government telling my insurance companies how and what it must cover, provide limit on charges, rates and reimbursement sure sounds like a change is coming my way via reduced service and higher cost.
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