Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:35 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 47):
Enact Federal regulation of insurance companies

Yeah, because that's entirely not socialist.  Yeah sure

It's a nice idea, but I have little confidence it would happen. If the GOP had their way, they'd get the elimination of state boundaries part done, and then try and stop the federal regulation on the grounds that the federal government shouldn't be messing with health care and that it would be a step toward socialism.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:32 pm



Quoting Zone1 (Reply 46):
You might have been too young to remember, but the world didn't like us before Bush.

That's right. It was the French, English, Japanese, and Australians who wanted the United States wiped off the map under Clinton. Sheesh....

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 46):
And that socialist sub-system is acting as a huge anchor on Japan's economy, which has been in recession or near recession for 20 years now.

I would point out that the greed sector, not the socialist sector, is what has been keeping Japan at or near recession for the past 20 years. I look at it this way: A shopping mall that once employed people to clean the common areas every day figured out they can make more money by moving that down to three times a week. That eliminates jobs putting less money into the economy and tax system so that people are not able to go to, say, Macys. Macys then has to let some people go because they can not afford to hire people when no one is shopping. Those people do not contribute to the economy nor to the tax system. It is a cycle and both the socialist and the capitalist systems depend on each other.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 44):
How would enacting tort reform to reduce the cost of healthcare only benefit the insurance companies? How exactly would eliminating state boundaries to competition help insurance companies?

Tort reform? I don't know. But, eliminating state boundries would make rates go up and fewer people would be willing to take any kind of health insurance and more people would go uninsured. They would then declare bankupcy if they get cancer, since they would not be able to pay their bills. Can you imagine what the economy would be like then? Millions more in bankrupcy?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:59 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 53):
But, eliminating state boundries would make rates go up and fewer people would be willing to take any kind of health insurance and more people would go uninsured.

Please, enlighten us. How would promoting competition between insurance companies would make rates go up, exactly? Or that is just your pathological hatred of competition speaking? Maybe you can explain why the states with the most restrictive insurance regulations are also the ones with the most expensive insurance policies? I am sure the people of Massachusetts feel great about paying way more for auto and health insurance though, just for the privilege of being regulated by an overbearing state insurance commissioner.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4410
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:03 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 53):
But, eliminating state boundries would make rates go up and fewer people would be willing to take any kind of health insurance and more people would go uninsured. They would then declare bankupcy if they get cancer, since they would not be able to pay their bills. Can you imagine what the economy would be like then? Millions more in bankrupcy?

How? If you eliminate the state lines rule, you will have the option to buy from every insurance provider in the country, versus maybe a handful in your state. Free-market competition drives prices down...

Let's say you own Company A, because of the state lines rule, you are the biggest insurance player in the state market, a virtual monopoly. You can charge whatever you want, pretty much. But, if the state lines rule is removed, you all the sudden have 1,000 more competitors who WANT your customers and will lower the price to steal them from you. Company C then wants Company A and B's customers, and will lower his rates to get the customers, etc. etc. I don't see the logic in how that will raise the rates? Mr. B. O. himself has said he wants more competition, but only in the form of the public option. Now, he has flip-flopped and said the public option would be preferred, but doesn't have to be there.

How can we be sure this public option will be of good quality? There are so many other government run plans that are failing: Social Security, The Post Office, Medicare, Medicaid, CARS (which was over budget in a week or two after they opened it, and wasn't supposed to cap until November, IIRC), etc. -- not to mention, just about anything the government touches turns out way over budget and poorly ran. Everything I see in this is trouble....

I say we should let the free market work on it, rather than government bureaucrats who have their heads so far up their asses, they don't have a clue what is happening in the real world.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 42):
Well why didn't the GOP change it the last 8 YEARS in office instead of spending their time creating enimies all over the world? Why didn't they propose this? The gov't spent the last 8 years worrying about this axis of evil and all that other stuff, when we needed to worry about us more. We needed to help our own country but nooooooo, the GOP and their faithful gun toting friends decided that killing 6000 coalition troops and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans was more important than making sure our own country is well maintained. Way to go guys, way to go bigthumbsup sarcastic

We had more important issues to deal with through Bush's first term, like a terrorist attack on our nation which killed over 3,000 Americans on our own soil. Now, I liked Bush's first term, but he and all the Republicans dropped the ball on his last term. That is why I don't trust any Republican or Democrat -- each have no clue what being an American is. All they care about is getting elected.

I am not associated with any party, I am a conservative. I believe in freedom and liberty for all - Not just for our own people, that is why we went into Iraq - we removed an evil dictator from his office, and freed the Iraqi people into a Democracy. What is wrong with spreading the gift of freedom to the world?
 
National757
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:05 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:22 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Thread starter):
somebody from the dems finally fired back. Rep. Grayson (D) from florida, said the GOP were neanderthals "who think they can dictate policy to America by being stubborn." BTW, I love it.



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Thread starter):
Lets at least talk politics like adults.)

Do you actually read/understand what you write? Just curious because adults don't call people they don't agree with 'neanderthals' or shout 'You Lie" in the middle of a speech.

There are no adults anymore in American politics, only rich, spoiled crybabies

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 4):

Truth hurts. Just deal with it. Your ideologies are all the very reason America has suffered.

Right on the money. You were right on the money years ago and you still are!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11202
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:30 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 34):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 26):
I think he is, where is this 40,000 deaths coming from? Where are the statistics? Who put together this number? Why haven't we heard much about this before? I think he just made it up.

Here's the citation - unfortunately, you'll probably have to have a subscription to access the online journal.

Do you have a link, and why do I need to sign up and get the BS e-mails filling my inbox. The number does not exsist, if it did, CNN, CBS, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times, etc. would have it every day in print and in their "news" casts.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 35):
Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 32):
Come on, seriously. The Dems aren't getting anything done because of Republican whining? You seem to forget that there's

Dude, read my post about the Dems wanting to be bi-partisan and working together with the republicans and not just shoving reform after reform out there, because they can do that, but they want to be bi-partisan. And you know that if the Dems did start to push reforms without consent from the republicans, then we'll start to hear talk of dictatorial gov'ts and what not, you know it.

The only reason why the Dems want "bi-partisan" is so they can blame someone when the people explode in the voting booths next year. Go ahead, pass your bill. BTW, everything the Congress passes is dictatoral to someone.

Quoting Heavymx1 (Reply 36):
I can only imagine how differnt this thread would be if this comment came from the GOP towards the dems. Would the dems call it a racist statement if someone from the GOP said it?

Yes.

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 37):
Forget public option.... Tort reform, tax incentives for buying your own insurance, open the insurance game to go across state lines -- we are and have been proposing many free market alternatives to the public option, but the liberals and Democrats have been voting them down. This means one thing, they really do want the socialistic system!

We want reform, but we don't want a reform of the system to socialism!

 bigthumbsup 

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 39):
First off, new polls show that a majority of americans want the public option.

What polls, show them, show all the polls.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 39):
Second, why should the Democrats listen to the republicans?

They shouldn't......go ahead and pass the bill you want, you currently have a choice of 5 of them.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 39):
They have been in office for 8 years and have done NOTHING but destroy the country.

Go back and check it out yourself. For the 8 years of the Bush Administration, the Dems controled the Senate for 2000-2002, and all of Congress from 2006-2008. That means the Dems were in control for 4 of the 8 years.

So, how exactly did the GOP destroy this country?

You do know you will be paying for MY health care under any of these 5 bills, don't you? You and your children, and your children's children will have to pay all the bills of this health care, and all the other spending by Obama. Check it out for yourself.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 39):
If the Dems propose something, the republicans say no, but for some reason we should accept their proposals though.


That is the only way you can be bi-partisan, you accept some of my ideas, and I accept some of yours. It is called compromise, something the Dems feel they don't have to do.
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:01 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 57):
Do you have a link, and why do I need to sign up and get the BS e-mails filling my inbox. The number does not exsist, if it did, CNN, CBS, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, NY Times, Washington Post, LA Times, etc. would have it every day in print and in their "news" casts.

You'd need to sign up because research journals don't publish their material for free. Unless you have a subscription, or can head to a local university library or something with a subscription, I can't show you the article without violating copyright law.

Incidentally, the 40,000 figure has been reported in the mainstream media, though it hasn't gotten the attention it deserves.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/18...deaths.health.insurance/index.html
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
futurepilot16
Topic Author
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:35 pm



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 55):
We had more important issues to deal with through Bush's first term, like a terrorist attack on our nation which killed over 3,000 Americans on our own soil

Dude, that's a wonderful excuse. I love it. I wonder why we have the war on terrorism anyway? Oh yeah, to get the terrorists, most noteably Bin Laden. But the last time I checked, he was sitting in a cozy cave somewhere along the Afghan Pakistan border. So how is it an important issue when the one guy that we've been after for eight years is still free and drumming up more plans to attack us? Do we as a Americans feel safer? absolutely not. Is the world Safer? absolutely not, it's probably worst. The previous administration failed at everything. I wish I could say at least we got the terrorist, but no not even that.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
NorthstarBoy
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:30 pm

Maybe we can just lay out what the GOP doesn't like about the current healthcare reform proposals:

-Caps on how much the consumer has to pay out of his own pocket.

-Mandatory acceptance of customers regardless of their current health.

-A 5 percent wealth tax to cover the cost of coverage for the underprivileged, which BTW, in a different time or place would have been called "charity" or "Tithing." Once upon a time it was expected that wealthy families be charitable. The only difference here and now is that it's a government mandate rather than a social expectation, but the concept is the same. Those who have more are expected to pay more, whether they like it or not. There are too many nuveau riche out there who don't have a social conscience, spending millions on foreign mansions, foreign registered mega yachts and foreign registered aircraft, not to mention hiding all their money in foreign accounts to avoid paying taxes, taxes that ultimately benefit those in society least able to help themselves.

-The public option, which brings the Southwest Effect to the health insurance industry by depressing plan rates. Everyone talks about competition, but wouldn't having a government backed public option actually foster competition by forcing the health insurers to compete on price and amenities? Like, if i'm paying 200 dollars a month for private insurance and the government offers the same coverage for 150 per month, then my private insurer is going to have to lower my premium to keep my business and at the same time they're going to have to offer me a plan that's the same or better than what i can get from Obamacare, so, in the end, for me, the consumer, it's a good thing.

So, if we get rid of all those things, what are we left with? the status quo. the status quo works well for most people, but obviously there are some 40 million people for whom the status quo doesn't work and somehow those 40 million people need to be brought into the system, so, in the end, the status quo has to change.

Of course the GOP wants the free market to be in the driver's seat, but, the problem with that is that the people who ultimately suffer are the ones who most need the care. The free market doesn't want a customer with no money and no job who's suffering from stage three cancer and needs a million dollar operation to save their life, because there will be no return on investment from that person, there's little chance that over the course of a lifetime that individual will pay back that expenditure through continued premium payments. Thus, that individual represents a "bad investment" or a "poor risk." And we all know how well the free market, and especially Wall Street likes "Bad investments" or "poor risks."
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11202
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:49 pm



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 57):
Oh yeah, to get the terrorists, most noteably Bin Laden. But the last time I checked, he was sitting in a cozy cave somewhere along the Afghan Pakistan border.

You know where he is? Better tell the Obama Administration because they want to get him just as much as Bush did.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 57):
Do we as a Americans feel safer? absolutely not. Is the world Safer? absolutely not, it's probably worst.

How many terrorists attacks have been in the US since 9/11? How many terrorists have been captured around the world by the US, EU, Russia, China, India, Pakistan, etc. since the GWOT began?

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 57):
The previous administration failed at everything.

That's a little to general a statement for me. Can you be more speicfic?

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 58):
NorthstarBoy

Wow, do you know how the free market even works? Do you know how Obama Care even will work? Do you know how much money Obama Care costs as opposed to the free market? Do you know how your grandchildren will pay for it?

It seems to me we are now way off topic with talks of terrorists, health care, etc. I thought we were talking about the clown Grayson, and his "entertaining" comments about Republicans. I wonder if he really knows what a Neanderthal is, or the fact that today, that is a racists statement?
 
NorthstarBoy
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:53 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:36 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 59):
Wow, do you know how the free market even works? Do you know how Obama Care even will work? Do you know how much money Obama Care costs as opposed to the free market? Do you know how your grandchildren will pay for it?

-the free market is the exchange of products and services for payment.

-I think the cost has been made clear, i think it's also well known that two thirds of the cost is covered and the other third can be covered by the aforementioned five percent wealth tax on anyone who makes over a million dollars a year. Obama has made it clear that he won't accept a bill that adds to the national debt.

-My grandchildren won't have to pay for it, the grandchildren of the wealthy are another matter, but i have no sympathy for someone who already makes a million dollars a year, which is probably more than i'll make in my lifetime, to have to fork out an extra fifty thousand dollars a year to cover the needs of those less fortunate then themselves.

-the free market, of course, costs less than Obamacare, but the free market is also, by nature, exclusionary. The free market operates under the principle of "to each what he can afford." Thus, the wealthy get the best of everything whether it be cars, or houses, or schooling for their children, or health care, or legal service, because they can afford it. While that works fine for most sectors of the market, when it comes to health care, there should not be a three class system. Everyone should get the best possible health care regardless of their ability to pay. Likewise, everyone should have some form of health insurance regardless of their ability to pay. That's where the free market balks, because they don't want to have to give something away for free that costs money to produce and that's essentially what Obama is asking for, he's asking that a certain percentage of the population be admitted to the system either for free or at a lower cost than what's being paid by everyone else.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 59):
It seems to me we are now way off topic with talks of terrorists, health care, etc. I thought we were talking about the clown Grayson, and his "entertaining" comments about Republicans. I wonder if he really knows what a Neanderthal is, or the fact that today, that is a racists statement?

What's racist about it? He's not referring to people of color, believe me if he were, Jesse, Al, and Najee would be all over him. He's referring to members of a predominantly white political party who have as their goal to turn the clock back fifty years. Anyone who lives in a modern, secular society, as we do, probably does look upon the religious right and their ilk as "neanderthals" because they represent regression back to morals and values that most of society has rejected. Whether it be prayer in schools, socially mandated church attendance, or just the notion that the man is the king of his castle and his word is law above all else, those are values that we, as a culture, abandoned years ago, the religious right and their ilk don't seem to have gotten that message, thus, they're neanderthals, as in, people who are stuck in a previous era that is less advanced than the one they're currently living in.
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
futurepilot16
Topic Author
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:24 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 59):
You know where he is? Better tell the Obama Administration because they want to get him just as much as Bush did.

I'm not in the military, and if I do sound naive here, I mean to. But I don't think in the last 8 years we have done enough to catch Bin Laden. But the biggest blunder is the fact that we committed more troops to Iraq than afghanistan, where our enemy actually was. That is what I was getting at, the fact that they haven't done much to catch or kill who we need to.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:44 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 52):
that is just your pathological hatred of competition speaking?

Uhhhh.... huh?

I have nothing against competition. But, I see it this way: The insurance and pharmacutical companies have been making money hand over fist for the past twenty or so years. If state lines are opened up, that would be a boon for them because they can charge the same in Oregon that they charge in Massachusetts. You know who the primary employer is in most counties in Eastern Oregon is? Seasonal farming and fast food. Do you honestly think those people can afford the same premiums as those living in Boston? They will have to take it. They will have no choice. Also, the competition will charge that much or even more for their health insurance.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 52):
Maybe you can explain why the states with the most restrictive insurance regulations are also the ones with the most expensive insurance policies?

Litigation insurance, I would guess.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:56 am



Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 42):

I guess my link wasn't good enough for you? You haven't commented. I guess it answered the questions.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 49):
I think the Republican party is the most god-awful, messed-up organization. Religious fundamentalists with fiscal conservatives? They don't have a valid platform and they are clueless as to how to analyze data or facts. They simply emote, get people to emote with them, and garner votes that way.

Wow...thats what I think of the Democrats. Funky.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 55):
What polls, show them, show all the polls

He doesn't have any polls KC. I even put a link for him for the latest poll which proves him 100% wrong! No comment from him though.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 57):
The previous administration failed at everything

That is the biggest Democratic Party response if I have ever heard one.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:17 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 62):
If state lines are opened up, that would be a boon for them because they can charge the same in Oregon that they charge in Massachusetts.

You are either a) so pathologically averse to the concept of competition (which stands against everything you believe in) to actually think that opening up state borders would result in everyone charging the higher premiums instead of the lower ones (what's stopping them from charging the higher premiums today anyway?) or b) know perfectly well that what you are saying is a lie but keep coming back with factecious comparisons to defend the indefensible just so you can justify a public "option" (which, I guess, would NOT have to respect state lines). Either way, it is abundantly clear it is of no point to try to have a serious discussion with you.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 62):

Litigation insurance, I would guess.

Good try, but I was actually talking about more generic forms of insurance, such as auto. The same comparison applies to health insurance though.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:13 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:40 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 63):
Wow...thats what I think of the Democrats. Funky.

To his defense, I also feel that way about the GOP. On one hand, the Democrats are ruining the country by bankrupting it; on the other hand, the GOP had the opportunity to do something about it, yet they didn't. In my eyes, that makes both parties utter garbage.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:14 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 63):
He doesn't have any polls KC. I even put a link for him for the latest poll which proves him 100% wrong! No comment from him though.

Here's a recent one. On page 15:

Quote:
Would you favor or oppose the government offering everyone a government administered health insurance plan — something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get — that would compete with private health insurance plans?

The poll found 65 percent in favor to 26 percent against. This is somewhat better than other polls on the issue, probably because it namedropped Medicare, but all the other polls on the public option show more support than opposition for the public option.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...tepid-support-for-war/original.pdf

This is not to say that polls on the health care reform plan in general show broad support, but polls on the specific element of the public option show higher support.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:27 pm



Quoting Centrair (Reply 9):
That said most people GOP and DEM have said that the use of the word was wrong.

The feigned outrage at the term used seems to be a method of avoiding discussing that a substantial number of Americans die who might not under a better system. One wonders if it also loses a bit of force because a similar order of magnitude of deaths comes from road accidents and gun deaths. "Hell if we kill that many on the roads, why worry if we kill a similar number by not giving them medical treatment?"
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11202
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:01 pm



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
I think the cost has been made clear, i think it's also well known that two thirds of the cost is covered and the other third can be covered by the aforementioned five percent wealth tax on anyone who makes over a million dollars a year.

No, the costs are far from clear, or how Congress and Obama plan to pay for it. The tax on the "wealthy" is one possibility, and "wealthy" has not been fully defined.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
My grandchildren won't have to pay for it, the grandchildren of the wealthy are another matter, but i have no sympathy for someone who already makes a million dollars a year, which is probably more than i'll make in my lifetime, to have to fork out an extra fifty thousand dollars a year to cover the needs of those less fortunate then themselves.

Keep believing that my friend. How do you know the grandchildren of today's "wealthy" will be "wealthy" when they grow up? Why can't you make a million in your life time? You do know if you make a little as $40,000 per year, in 25 years you have made $1M, don't you?

BTW, a sur-tax of 5% on the "wealthests" Americans will only bring in some $1B-$1.5B per year to the government. That is far from the 1/3 of the current lowest estimate of $600B (1/3 of which is $200B) per year some of these plans will costs. Who do you really think will make up that difference?

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
Obama has made it clear that he won't accept a bill that adds to the national debt.

Why believe him on that? He has lied about everything to do with health care costs to date. None of the 5 plans are "budget neutral", they all costs between $600B and $1.2T.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
What's racist about it? He's not referring to people of color, believe me if he were, Jesse, Al, and Najee would be all over him. He's referring to members of a predominantly white political party who have as their goal to turn the clock back fifty years.

Because scientists look at neanderthals as sub-human. What is "predominantly white" about the GOP? Do you know the mix of the GOP? So me which GOP'r wants to set back the clock by 50 years.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
Anyone who lives in a modern, secular society, as we do, probably does look upon the religious right and their ilk as "neanderthals" because they represent regression back to morals and values that most of society has rejected.

You do know that some 84% of Americans believe in God, and another 3%-4% believe in Alla, and several more believe in Budda, or some other God. Those numbers not only include Republicans, but most Democrats, too. It is the side of the ACLU and others who are in the minority in your thinking of having no morals in an anything goes society.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
Whether it be prayer in schools, socially mandated church attendance, or just the notion that the man is the king of his castle and his word is law above all else, those are values that we, as a culture, abandoned years ago, the religious right and their ilk don't seem to have gotten that message, thus, they're neanderthals, as in, people who are stuck in a previous era that is less advanced than the one they're currently living in.

Hmmm, in the 1950s we had lower crime rates, stable families, higher educated people, and trusted our neighbors. Today we have none of those things. Yeah, we are really advanced, aren't we.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 61):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 59):
You know where he is? Better tell the Obama Administration because they want to get him just as much as Bush did.

I'm not in the military, and if I do sound naive here, I mean to.

Good, I believe you on that. You can still report his location to any Police Department or even your local FBI office.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 61):
But the biggest blunder is the fact that we committed more troops to Iraq than afghanistan, where our enemy actually was.

Really? Let me in on a little secret, my young friend. There are terrorists in just about every conuntry on Earth, including the US. Iraq and Afghanistan are not the only places we are tracking down terrorists. Just about every week the FBI arrests terrorists here in the US. Just last week, the Dallas Office of the FBI arrested a Pakistani young man for plotting to blow up a big office building in Dallas. I believe there were a few other terrorists arrested by the FBI around the country at that same time.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 63):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 55):
What polls, show them, show all the polls

He doesn't have any polls KC.

I know, facts don't mean anything to some Dems, just as long as they can "feel good" about what they believe in.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 63):
Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 57):
The previous administration failed at everything

That is the biggest Democratic Party response if I have ever heard one.

Me too.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 65):
Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 63):
Wow...thats what I think of the Democrats. Funky.

To his defense, I also feel that way about the GOP. On one hand, the Democrats are ruining the country by bankrupting it; on the other hand, the GOP had the opportunity to do something about it, yet they didn't. In my eyes, that makes both parties utter garbage.

Well, I agree with that. Both parties need a big overhaul. But, the GOP opportunity over the last 8 years was really only four of them.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 64):
so pathologically averse to the concept of competition



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 64):
know perfectly well that what you are saying is a lie

So, you are telling me to trust corporations? You are telling me that this one *OPINION* I have is an outright lie? You are telling me I *MUST* believe what you do because you tell me to? I don't think so! It is at this point that I am completely and totally against the idea of opening state lines to competition just because you tell me I am a liar because of my opinion. I would have been willing to give it a go, but, now, forget it!

Or, it could be that you have a crystal ball and know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, insurance companies will actually lower their rates in states like MA to match rates in AL or OR.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 64):
The same comparison applies to health insurance though.

Auto insurance rates are higher in CA than in OR. In OR, rates are higher in PDX than Morrow County. Why? More people, crime and chance for accidents in CA or PDX. But, people in Morrow county have less income than those in PDX. So, in theory, auto insurance companies can charge X in Morrow County, but X plus $100 in PDX.

Not only that, but auto insurance is vastly different than health insurance. The main point being, not everyone HAS to have auto insurance. Does EVERYONE own a car? Will a person go bankrupt by not having auto insurance keeping in mind that not everyone owns a car? It seems like people that keep comparing auto and health insurance do not understand that concept; that the two are completely different.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:56 pm



Quoting Centrair (Reply 9):
If a republican proposes it...its okay
If a democrat proposes it...its socialism.

Incorrect. Please get your facts straight, as most conservatives were against the government bailouts.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 9):

When W came into office President Clinton had left the nation with a surplus and the debt was decreasing.

A Republican controlled Congress passed the budget surplus. Unfortunately they stopped spending the way they were supposed to when Bush came into office. That was one of the reasons they were voted out in 2006 - complaints about spending. That was one of the platforms the Democrats ran and won on. Too bad they've only made it worse since gaining control of Congress and then the Presidency.

Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 13):

He said he has been in the House for only 8 months. Are there really 2 year terms in the HR?

Two year terms. Every two years the entire House of Representatives is up for re-election. where as in the Senate, 1/3rd is up for reelection every two years.

Quoting FuturePilot16 (Reply 39):
They have been in office for 8 years and have done NOTHING but destroy the country.

No they haven't. The Senate was split 50-50 in 2001 and 2002. Then the Republicans gained the majority in 2002 mid-terms and held it through 2006. Then the Republicans lost control of both Houses to the Dems in 2006. But you've already shown you're someone who will only point the finger at the other side. So contrary to what you say and believe, the Republicans have not been solely in control of the country for 8 years. I also find it amusing that you want to discuss politics "like an adult" but the arguments you use are Republicans have not nothing but "destroy the country".
That said, the failure of the passing of healthcare reform shows how weak Democrats are when they can't even push this through when they have the Super-Majority in the Senate and the necessary 50% majority in the House (it also shows that even some of the Democrats aren't on board, but it's still only Republican's fault this thing won't pass).
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11202
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:22 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 67):
One wonders if it also loses a bit of force because a similar order of magnitude of deaths comes from road accidents and gun deaths. "Hell if we kill that many on the roads, why worry if we kill a similar number by not giving them medical treatment?"

We can and have documented the tragic deaths on the roads of the US, gun accidents, and even deaths caused by improper medical care, among the many types of deaths we track.

There is no documentation showing anyone has died because they could not get emergency medcical care. It is the law in the US that every doctor, hospital, and medical proffessional provide emergency and life saving care to anyone, regardless of their ability to pay for such services.

Politicians here in the US (and I assume in every other country too) make up numbers all the time, and no one questions them on the accuracy or valididty of the numbers. When Idiot Grayson said "40,000 Americans die every year because they don't have health care", why hasn't that number been reported anywhere else? How did Grayson get that number if I cannot? How many years have Americans been dying at that rate because of that reason?

In the USA, we have a saying, which I'm sure also applies in Australia, and everywhere else; "You can always tell when any politician is lying, his/her lips are moving".

When Wilson yelled "You Lie" to President Obama a few weeks ago, Wilson was finally telling the truth. Obama is lying, so is Grayson, and Wilson, Pelosi, Reid, and all the other 531 members of the US House of Repersentitives and US Senate.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:47 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 69):
Or, it could be that you have a crystal ball and know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, insurance companies will actually lower their rates in states like MA to match rates in AL or OR.

Ok, give me ONE example (just one) where increased competition has made access to any good or service more expensive to the consumer and you may be entitled to the opinion that maybe, just maybe, opening up state lines is not such a great idea. Until then, I will stand firm that you are either being naive or lying.

Oh, and I am sure you defend that the federal "option" should adapt to the regulations in all 50 states as well, right? Or what is good for the gander is not good for the geese?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 69):
It seems like people that keep comparing auto and health insurance do not understand that concept; that the two are completely different.

I know it is not the same, I never said it was. I was just giving it as an example of a case where government "regulation" has made things needlessly more expensive. I can use taxis in Boston, gas in New Jersey or airline travel pre-deregulation if you prefer.

Oh, and the fact that auto insurance is not the same as health insurance is precisely the reason I am against the mandatory health insurance component of the plan.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:11 am



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 66):

Thank you for that report Yellowstone but the numbers seem to actually go against the side that the "conservatives" are on.

The example you gave is something for 65+ and not someone even close to my age (22). Also, a lot of the numbers given as well seem to be pushing for more of a government controlled free market (is that an oxymoron?) vs a sole government option. Or did I read your poll wrong?

Thanks for posting something by the way.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 70):
Incorrect. Please get your facts straight, as most conservatives were against the government bailouts

Except my Rep!  Yeah sure George Radanovich is on his way out in my district. Not only was he the major Republican pusher for the stimulous bill under Bush, but he has done NOTHING to help out the farming industry that is suffering here in his district. Another idiot Rep thats been in there far to long now. Adios!
Don't Tread On Me!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:27 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 71):
In the USA, we have a saying, which I'm sure also applies in Australia, and everywhere else; "You can always tell when any politician is lying, his/her lips are moving".

When Wilson yelled "You Lie" to President Obama a few weeks ago, Wilson was finally telling the truth.

Well apparently not according to your theory. As I understand your thesis it is that whatever Wilson said would, due to his being a politician, be a lie. Ergo, when he said "you lie" the truth would have been, "you tell the truth". I don't wonder you guys are so confused about how to get a health system that works.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 71):
There is no documentation showing anyone has died because they could not get emergency medcical care. It is the law in the US that every doctor, hospital, and medical proffessional provide emergency and life saving care to anyone, regardless of their ability to pay for such services.

I am wondering what might constitute documentation in the terms that you write. If you follow up

Grayson then pointed to a Harvard study that reported more than 44,000 Americans die yearly because they lack health insurance.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ns-defiant-on-die-quickly-remarks/

This could lead to:

http://www.harvardscience.harvard.ed...nually-linked-lack-health-coverage

Where you will find something that sort of suggests that your stress on emergency care is a bit of a furphy.

New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage
Uninsured, working-age Americans have 40 percent higher death risk than privately insured counterparts
September 17, 2009
David Cecere
Cambridge Health Alliance

Nearly 45,000 annual deaths are associated with lack of health insurance, according to a new study published online today by the American Journal of Public Health. That figure is about two and a half times higher than an estimate from the Institute of Medicine (IOM) in 2002.

The study, conducted at Harvard Medical School and Cambridge Health Alliance, found that uninsured, working-age Americans have a 40 percent higher risk of death than their privately insured counterparts, up from a 25 percent excess death rate found in 1993.

“The uninsured have a higher risk of death when compared to the privately insured, even after taking into account socioeconomics, health behaviors, and baseline health,” said lead author Andrew Wilper, M.D., who currently teaches at the University of Washington School of Medicine. “We doctors have many new ways to prevent deaths from hypertension, diabetes, and heart disease — but only if patients can get into our offices and afford their medications.”


USW

Seems clear enough to me. I don't have the skills or the data to argue with that, do you? Did Grayson restrict his "holocaust" to folk stacked up outside emergency rooms. I don't think so.

Seems to me at least 40,000 Americans are in danger of dying each year just due to a phobia of national health care systems. Sad really. But you just get on with it guys, apparently some of you actually enjoy it.

Talking of insurance companies, I just had a brush with one over travel insurance, and what a nightmare, including a need to go and get a doctor to write down a whole pile of stuff that they then did not use. In the end I was surprised that the rather long suffering Doc did not suggest where I should insert the form he was being asked to fill in. Now just think, if the countries I was visiting had national health systems with exchange arrangements for their citizens, there would be no need for the health part of the travel insurance.  bouncy  The irritating part seemed to be that I needed all the fuss because I was going to a couple of countries in SOUTH America and for the insurance lot, this counts as AMERICA, that is the USA. Grrrrrr!!

From the article:

Deaths associated with lack of health insurance now exceed those caused by many common killers such as kidney disease. An increase in the number of uninsured and an eroding medical safety net for the disadvantaged likely explain the substantial increase in the number of deaths, as the uninsured are more likely to go without needed care. Another factor contributing to the widening gap in the risk of death between those who have insurance and those who do not is the improved quality of care for those who can get it.

The researchers analyzed U.S. adults under age 65 who participated in the annual National Health and Nutrition Examination Surveys (NHANES) between 1986 and 1994. Respondents first answered detailed questions about their socioeconomic status and health and were then examined by physicians. The CDC tracked study participants to see who died by 2000.


Seems a fair enough basis to me.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:38 am



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 73):
but he has done NOTHING to help out the farming industry that is suffering here in his district.

So the billions upon billions of dollars that the farming industry receives year upon year upon year is not enough?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:18 pm



Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
-the free market, of course, costs less than Obamacare,

That's an odd argument. The US does not have a free market for insurance. In any event, what the US does have is FAR more expensive than single payer schemes worldwide.

ObamaCare, or whatever you call it, could be less than half the cost of what we have today. Americans work extra weeks per year just to pay for the unfair system we have today. It's laughable.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 74):
Seems to me at least 40,000 Americans are in danger of dying each year just due to a phobia of national health care systems. Sad really. But you just get on with it guys, apparently some of you actually enjoy it.

It makes you wonder why our military is in Afghanistan, and not here at home.
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:29 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 75):
So the billions upon billions of dollars that the farming industry receives year upon year upon year is not enough?

You come take a field trip here and see exactly what all of us in the Central Valley are talking about. Then you might understand. But until then, you will never know what I am talking about.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11202
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:04 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 72):
Ok, give me ONE example (just one) where increased competition has made access to any good or service more expensive to the consumer and you may be entitled to the opinion

Have you ever bought a new car? Why did you decide on this or that model as opposed to a competitor's model?

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 73):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 70):
Incorrect. Please get your facts straight, as most conservatives were against the government bailouts

Except my Rep! George Radanovich is on his way out in my district. Not only was he the major Republican pusher for the stimulous bill under Bush, but he has done NOTHING to help out the farming industry that is suffering here in his district. Another idiot Rep thats been in there far to long now. Adios!

Then vote him out of office next year.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 74):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 71):
In the USA, we have a saying, which I'm sure also applies in Australia, and everywhere else; "You can always tell when any politician is lying, his/her lips are moving".

When Wilson yelled "You Lie" to President Obama a few weeks ago, Wilson was finally telling the truth.

Well apparently not according to your theory. As I understand your thesis it is that whatever Wilson said would, due to his being a politician, be a lie. Ergo, when he said "you lie" the truth would have been, "you tell the truth".

Not really, even a blind squeerle finds a nut ever now and then.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 74):
New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage
Uninsured, working-age Americans have 40 percent higher death risk than privately insured counterparts
September 17, 2009
David Cecere
Cambridge Health Alliance

The Cambridge Health Alliance is a left leaning political group with their own agenda. Mayby I should have asked for an unbiased study?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 76):
Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 60):
-the free market, of course, costs less than Obamacare,

That's an odd argument. The US does not have a free market for insurance. In any event, what the US does have is FAR more expensive than single payer schemes worldwide.

We also have far superior health care in the US than the rest of the world. Why do so many from other countries come here for treatment when they have "free" health care at home?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 76):
ObamaCare, or whatever you call it, could be less than half the cost of what we have today. Americans work extra weeks per year just to pay for the unfair system we have today. It's laughable.

Oh really? You do know the average American worker must work every work day betweem 1 Jan. and 21 May each year just to pay all of his/her tax obigations(federal, SS, state, Medicare, city, property, excise, sales, and school taxes), don't you? That is nearly half the year.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:08 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 76):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 74):
Seems to me at least 40,000 Americans are in danger of dying each year just due to a phobia of national health care systems. Sad really. But you just get on with it guys, apparently some of you actually enjoy it.

It makes you wonder why our military is in Afghanistan, and not here at home.

Yes, true, that adds to the mystery each day. How the Karzai fiasco was "invented" inserts a bit of eastern exotica into the puzzles. It would be nice to be able to take a really distant (and disinterested) view of what the heck the US does, but that is not an option when bright young sparks get the idea that we should imitate this that or the other in the US. We saw what your pharmaceutical industry tried to do to us when the "Free" trade agreement was being bashed out - using the word "negotiated" would traduce the language!

The way your dollar is diving, we are bidding fair to get parity with it which is probably another version of imitation that we might be able to do without.

We look at your insurance rates and are simply staggered by the costs and appalled at some of the catches that seem to be built into the benefits. I must try and work out sometime what you would get here if you paid the amounts that some a.netters have indicated that they pay - probably off scale!!

So far every time a Clinton or an Obama decides on reform and we think (just for a brief moment) that sanity might be about to descend and then we get just a hint of the brilliance of perception that drives political change in the US.  cry 
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:51 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 72):
give me ONE example (just one) where increased competition has made access to any good or service more expensive to the consumer and you may be entitled to the opinion that maybe, just maybe, opening up state lines is not such a great idea

In-network vs out-of-network.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 70):
Please get your facts straight, as most conservatives were against the government bailouts.

Even though the first round was proposed by Bush. The first round has always been blamed on the Dems but proposed by Bush.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 71):
It is the law in the US that every doctor, hospital, and medical proffessional provide emergency and life saving care to anyone, regardless of their ability to pay for such services.

That's right. The ability to pay is brought up after they are stabalized and are able to sign papers. Even if they are still laying in their hospital bed. That is when the screws start turning. They are still corporations and they still have to consider their bottom line.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:24 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 78):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 74):
New study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage
Uninsured, working-age Americans have 40 percent higher death risk than privately insured counterparts
September 17, 2009
David Cecere
Cambridge Health Alliance

The Cambridge Health Alliance is a left leaning political group with their own agenda. Mayby I should have asked for an unbiased study?

No, what you need to do is find even a right leaning study that shows the left leaning one is untrue. Otherwise you are like the Emperor found without his strides!!  redflag 

What you did was to deny any study existed that indicated what Grayson had said. You must be practicing to be a politician according to your definition?????
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 14195
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:57 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 79):
We look at your insurance rates and are simply staggered by the costs and appalled at some of the catches that seem to be built into the benefits. I must try and work out sometime what you would get here if you paid the amounts that some a.netters have indicated that they pay - probably off scale!!

So far every time a Clinton or an Obama decides on reform and we think (just for a brief moment) that sanity might be about to descend and then we get just a hint of the brilliance of perception that drives political change in the US.


I agree.

CNN just reported that the Congressional Budget Office has found that the
cost of the Baucus Bill will be an estimated 829 billion dollars over ten years. with the taxes raised, it will not only pay for the reform, but will reduce the Federal deficit. Sounds good to me. I believe it also reported that 95% of legal Americans will be covered by the plan.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:58 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 77):
You come take a field trip here and see exactly what all of us in the Central Valley are talking about. Then you might understand. But until then, you will never know what I am talking about.

Are you denying that the farming industry worldwide has lived off the government's teat for decades? Why shouldn't some of the other industries get a little something something their way as well? Why should agriculture be the only inefficient, non-competitive industry we support?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 78):


Quoting Pyrex (Reply 72):
Ok, give me ONE example (just one) where increased competition has made access to any good or service more expensive to the consumer and you may be entitled to the opinion

Have you ever bought a new car? Why did you decide on this or that model as opposed to a competitor's model?

Not exactly sure where you are trying to reach there. Specially considering that, in this debate, we are broadly on the same side.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 80):


Quoting Pyrex (Reply 72):
give me ONE example (just one) where increased competition has made access to any good or service more expensive to the consumer and you may be entitled to the opinion that maybe, just maybe, opening up state lines is not such a great idea

In-network vs out-of-network.

In-network vs out-of-network what?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:05 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 83):
In-network vs out-of-network what?

Corporate health care (Blue Cross and Kaizer to name two) will pay for only so much at their own affiliated, or in-network, hospitals and doctors and pharmacies. Otherwise, the person holding the policy has to pay more to visit out-of-network hospitals and doctors and pharmacies. That is what I have had in the past and that is what my mom and brothers have as well.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:18 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 84):


Quoting Pyrex (Reply 83):
In-network vs out-of-network what?

Corporate health care (Blue Cross and Kaizer to name two) will pay for only so much at their own affiliated, or in-network, hospitals and doctors and pharmacies. Otherwise, the person holding the policy has to pay more to visit out-of-network hospitals and doctors and pharmacies. That is what I have had in the past and that is what my mom and brothers have as well.

I asked because I couldn't quite believe you would come up with such a ridiculous example but, alas, you did. The reason why in-network is cheaper than out of newtork is because doctors COMPETE to be in the network, and prices inside the network are based on that competition (such as prices outside the network are determined by the competition of doctors who prefer not to be in the network or got shut out of it).

Just because some doctors choose to accept lower prices to generate higher volume does not invalidate the concept of competition. Your example is like saying that the fact that my local apple farmer sells his apples to Walmart cheaper than he sells to the corner fruit stand is proof that competition in the apple industry does not reduce the price of apples.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:40 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 85):
The reason why in-network is cheaper than out of newtork is because doctors COMPETE to be in the network, and prices inside the network are based on that competition

Wait, wait, wait..... So, if a person living in California that is insured through Keizer goes to, let's say North Carolina and takes ill while visiting, they still have to pay outrageous sums of money to the doctor who chose to affiliate him/herself with Blue Cross just because of the decision of the doctor. Well, that makes everything all better, then, doesn't it? More than that, doctors take on more and more patients from the companies they choose to afflitate themselves with why? Profit. Sounds like they don't care about treating people. People are just numbers. So, what is the differenct between the government running things and corporations running things? We all still pay either way. Either because of bankrupcy because people can not afford to pay their out-of-network bill or through taxes so they can be seen by a doctor.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:53 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 86):
Wait, wait, wait..... So, if a person living in California that is insured through Keizer goes to, let's say North Carolina and takes ill while visiting, they still have to pay outrageous sums of money to the doctor who chose to affiliate him/herself with Blue Cross just because of the decision of the doctor. Well, that makes everything all better, then, doesn't it?

If there was a national market for health insurance then maybe Kaiser could compete in North Carolina and it would make sense for the doctor to affiliate him or herself with Kaiser. If there are no Kaiser customers in North Carolina because of stupid state restrictions then why should he bother? You just keep shooting yourself in the foot more and more here.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 86):
Profit. Sounds like they don't care about treating people.

Yeah, those evil doctors. And what do you propose to do about it, have the government dictate how much a doctor can make? Pay their medical school student loans and reimburse them for the 8 years they spent studying to save your ungrateful behind yourself?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:44 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 87):
If there was a national market for health insurance then maybe Kaiser could compete in North Carolina and it would make sense for the doctor to affiliate him or herself with Kaiser. If there are no Kaiser customers in North Carolina because of stupid state restrictions then why should he bother? You just keep shooting yourself in the foot more and more here.

If Seb is so busy shooting himself in the foot then why has your foot got so many holes in it? I dont have to worry if I fall ill in my home state of NSW, or next door in Vic, or even in far away NT.

Even more amazing, quoting from the Medicare website:

Medicare benefits are not available for treatment received overseas, however, the Australian Government has signed Reciprocal Health Care Agreements which means that as an Australian resident your are entitled to assistance with the cost of medical treatment in:

* New Zealand
* The United Kingdom
* The Republic of Ireland
* Sweden
* The Netherlands
* Finland
* Italy
* Belgium
* Malta
* Norway


What is it with defenders of such a lousy system?????? Mind you, there is a fault in Medicare, they do not seem to know how to spell "you are".

[Edited 2009-10-07 23:24:26]
 
QXatFAT
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:51 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 78):
Then vote him out of office next year.

I didnt vote for him in 2008 and wont again. Thats why I put "adios"  Smile
Actually, a farmer from our district is thinking about putting his name in and running. It is a well known family in the area and someone who runs the family farm that depends on water. A lot of farmers have actually thought of promoting a Dem for the first time in decades!

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 83):

Do farms need water to grow the crops that we eat? Answer that simple question and you tell me if whats going on is wrong or not.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11202
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:49 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 82):
CNN just reported that the Congressional Budget Office has found that the
cost of the Baucus Bill will be an estimated 829 billion dollars over ten years. with the taxes raised, it will not only pay for the reform, but will reduce the Federal deficit. Sounds good to me. I believe it also reported that 95% of legal Americans will be covered by the plan.

Well, that 5% not covered still comes to some 15M-20M Americans. Also, keep in mind the CBO estimates assume Congress will only spend that tax money on health care. That is where this estimate falls apart. Congress will not do that.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 89):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 78):
Then vote him out of office next year.

I didnt vote for him in 2008 and wont again. Thats why I put "adios"
Actually, a farmer from our district is thinking about putting his name in and running. It is a well known family in the area and someone who runs the family farm that depends on water. A lot of farmers have actually thought of promoting a Dem for the first time in decades!

There will also be the Republican and Democrat Primary elections which will choose the people running for the general elction in Nov.

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 89):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 83):


Do farms need water to grow the crops that we eat? Answer that simple question and you tell me if whats going on is wrong or not.

It is obvious we need the water to grow the food crops. To me that is more important than worrying about the survival of some slug that contributes next to nothing to the enviorinment.

Some 99.99% of all plants and animals that have ever lived on Earth are now extint. We (humans) had nothing to do with 99.99% of those extintions. Even the Neanderthals Grayson calls us had nothing to do with that.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:34 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 87):
If there was a national market for health insurance then maybe Kaiser could compete in North Carolina and it would make sense for the doctor to affiliate him or herself with Kaiser.

I don't understand something: If there is no "national market" for health insurance, why, then is Kaiser offered in Oregon, Washington, and California? I know there are 47 other states, but doesn't that mean Kaiser crosses state lines? Isn't Blue Cross avaliable in more than one state? Since Kaiser is available in at least these three states, what is stopping them from making themselves available in North Carolina or Alaska or Maine? There are interstate banking regulations, yet, there are branches of Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Key, and Chase in many states.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 87):
Pay their medical school student loans and reimburse them for the 8 years they spent studying to save your ungrateful behind yourself?

Some states actually do this. Oregon and Alaska offer doctors financial assistance if they practice for some years in rural areas.

I take offense at the notion that I am ungrateful. If the corporations would quit offering insentives for doctors to take on huge numbers of patients, care would acutally be better. That was the point I was trying to make. But, since I am a "liberal" I am against everything good and right that is America, I guess.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:04 pm



Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 89):
Do farms need water to grow the crops that we eat? Answer that simple question and you tell me if whats going on is wrong or not.

Yes they do. That is why you shouldn't grow water-intensive crops in the middle of the desert.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 91):
I don't understand something: If there is no "national market" for health insurance, why, then is Kaiser offered in Oregon, Washington, and California?

Because, perhaps, they are registered as three different companies (i.e., Kaiser of California being different from Kaiser of Oregon, like Blue Cross - see below) or because they jumped through all the hoops to get themselves registered in those three states. The thing is, you can probably go about and get yourself the ability to offer products in different states but all the trouble you need to go through in order to do be able to offer what is essentially the same product (which would probably require some sort of back-office infrastructure in the state) does not, for the most part, make it worthwhile to do so.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 91):
Isn't Blue Cross avaliable in more than one state?

Blue Cross / Blue Shield is actually a confederation of different health insurers in each state, some of them for-profit companies and some of them non-profit companies, For instance, in MA you would be a customer of Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts but if you were to move to New York (as I did) you would have to terminate that coverage and get a new insurance policy through Empire Blue Cross Blue Shield.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 91):
There are interstate banking regulations, yet, there are branches of Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Key, and Chase in many states.

Banking is mostly regulated on a Federal level - state regulation mostly amounts to product specifications and are more of an unnecessary inconvenience than an impediment. Still, they do create some barriers to competition, and that is one of the reasons why you don't have a truly national U.S. retail bank (not the only one, though).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:05 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 80):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 70):
Please get your facts straight, as most conservatives were against the government bailouts.

Even though the first round was proposed by Bush. The first round has always been blamed on the Dems but proposed by Bush.

We already know this. You obviously missed the point. He said when Republicans do it, it's "good" and when Democrats do it, it's "socialism". However, most conservatives were against the bailouts proposed by both Bush AND Obama. This "Republicans supported it under Bush but call it something else under Obama" crap is just that - crap. One of the same old tired lines the left has been incorrectly using for the past year since Bush proposed the first stimulus and Obama began talking about his.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:52 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 93):
most conservatives were against the bailouts proposed by both Bush AND Obama. This "Republicans supported it under Bush but call it something else under Obama" crap is just that - crap.

There were Democrats against both, too. It is crap that Republican cheerleaders seem to think that since they all think alike, all Democrats must think alike, too. Since we all think alike and one is said to be a socialist, we all must be socialists. I resent that notion. The sooner Republican cheerleaders, from Cheney and Limbaugh all the way to Joe and Annie Smith in middle America, the sooner this country can move forward.

Now, back to:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 92):
because they jumped through all the hoops to get themselves registered in those three states.

So, if Kaiser is avaliable in 10 states (according to their corporate web stie), there are 10 different corporate headquarters? Why, then, does there corporate web site say they are headquartered in Oakland, California? Why should we waste our time and money with abolishing interstate rules if insurance companies can already offer care in other states? IMO, we should just abolish in-network and out-of-network care. Simply make it something like: if you have insurance, you don't have to go bankrupt in case you do have to go to the hospital or see a doctor in another part of the country.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:25 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 94):
So, if Kaiser is avaliable in 10 states (according to their corporate web stie), there are 10 different corporate headquarters?

They may not have 10 different corporate headquarters but they certainly have regional back-office, regional compliance staff, regional regulatory affairs personnel, etc.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 94):
Why should we waste our time and money with abolishing interstate rules if insurance companies can already offer care in other states?

You are wasting your time and money enforcing ridiculous state rules who do nothing but give a power trip to some local despot/legislator and create worthless jobs for in-state paper-pushers. And just because they technically can doesn't mean it's economically feasible. Why would Kaiser go through the hoops in 50 different jurisdictions just for the privilege of being able to offer health insurance in Rhode Island or Delaware?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 94):
Simply make it something like: if you have insurance, you don't have to go bankrupt in case you do have to go to the hospital or see a doctor in another part of the country.

Great. Let's make all doctor's in-network. I am sure you are prepared to pay for that in much higher insurance premiums, right? Oh, not to mention the wonderful incentives it would give doctors and hospitals ("I can charge whatever the hell I want to the insurance companies and the guys have to pay" sort of thing).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11202
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 94):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 93):
most conservatives were against the bailouts proposed by both Bush AND Obama. This "Republicans supported it under Bush but call it something else under Obama" crap is just that - crap.

There were Democrats against both, too. It is crap that Republican cheerleaders seem to think that since they all think alike, all Democrats must think alike, too.

That is correct, not all Dems were for the bailout, and not all Dems are for the health care plans. Just like there are "Liberal Republicans", there are also "Conservitive Democrats".

But, Grayson didn't call the "Conservitive Democrats" Neanderthals. He said it was all GOP'ers, adding in the "Liberal Republicans".
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 23159
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:50 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 95):
And just because they technically can doesn't mean it's economically feasible.

And abolishing these rules would encourage what? If they would not make money in Delaware, why would the set up shop there if there were no interstate rules?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 95):
I am sure you are prepared to pay for that in much higher insurance premiums, right?

If all doctors and hospitals are in-network, why would premiums be any more? If we could choose any doctor and any hospital we want, why would that increase anything?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 96):
That is correct, not all Dems were for the bailout, and not all Dems are for the health care plans. Just like there are "Liberal Republicans", there are also "Conservitive Democrats".

But, Grayson didn't call the "Conservitive Democrats" Neanderthals. He said it was all GOP'ers, adding in the "Liberal Republicans".

Explain to me, then, why it is acceptable for GOP cheerleaders to call ALL Democrats as socialist, communist, nazi and so forth but when ONE Democrat makes a sweeping statement, we should be outrated? That is what I have been trying to get answered for the longest time. EVERY GOP cheerleader dodges that question.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:57 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 97):
Explain to me, then, why it is acceptable for GOP cheerleaders to call ALL Democrats as socialist, communist, nazi and so forth but when ONE Democrat makes a sweeping statement, we should be outrated?

Right after you explain to us why when ALL Democratic cheerleaders can call Republicans "Racist", "Sexist", "Homophobes", "Nazi's", etc that we should be outraged when ONE Republican says "You Lie!" or calls Democrats "Commies/Nazi's/etc". Because you live in this dream world that only the other side (the Republican side) does it regularly and your side is completely innocent.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Rep. Grayson: "gop Are Neanderthals"

Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:33 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 97):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 95):
I am sure you are prepared to pay for that in much higher insurance premiums, right?

If all doctors and hospitals are in-network, why would premiums be any more? If we could choose any doctor and any hospital we want, why would that increase anything?

You really don't have any basic understanding of economics, do you? You seem to be of the Barney Frank school of linear thought - identify one specific issue, make hasty legislation to address it and anything that happens that is not exactly what you had predicted is unintended consequences and/or someone trying to skirt the system.

Let me try to make this real simple for you: if there is no such thing as a network all doctors and other providers will be able to charge the insurance companies whatever they want for their services, instead of rates negotiated with the insurers, as currently happens in network. The result is, of course, average cost of services provided will go up. To make up for that, insurance companies will charge higher premiums to everyone. So if you happen to be a patient that currently uses the doctors in your network you will have to pay higher premiums for that guy who wants to check into the Mayo Clinic to have his ingrained toenail removed.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArchGuy1, c933103, Dutchy, L410Turbolet, lentokone, luckyone, Majestic-12 [Bot], TSS and 107 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos