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CaliAtenza
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Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:12 pm

As per the huffington post: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...t/04/california-failing-state-debt

I trully hope not...and it would just reflect how bad this economic crisis has gotten. Ive lived in CA for most of my life and ive never seen things this bad. What can be done to turn around the Golden State?
 
IgneousRocks
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:46 pm



Quoting Caliatenza (Thread starter):
I trully hope not...and it would just reflect how bad this economic crisis has gotten.

National economic crisis or not, California has done just about everything it could to make the state economically uncompetitive. It didn't just start in the last few years. Its been festering for multiple generations, perhaps the entire post World War II era.

-Oppressive tax burdens
-Overburdening regulations
-Ridiculous pandering to/for minority groups, the homeless, the environment, Hollywood, etc.
-Not addressing the state's energy and water woes
-Prohibiting offshore drilling
-Out of control housing costs and subsequent bust
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:57 pm

As much as I would love to live in California someday, I know for a fact that I will never get that chance because it is so EXPENSIVE to live there.... and for the main reasons as mentioned, mainly...

Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 1):
-Oppressive tax burdens

Taxing is not done correctly and the spending is the most wasteful in the country, Ive heard.

Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 1):
-Ridiculous pandering to/for minority groups, the homeless, the environment, Hollywood, etc.

This is what I don't understand and it is ridiculous.

Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 1):
-Out of control housing costs and subsequent bust

Again, way, way, WAY too expensive to live in California.

Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 1):
-Not addressing the state's energy and water woes

L.A. is famous for leaving on the lights. They fail at conserving energy.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:20 pm



Quoting Caliatenza (Thread starter):
What can be done to turn around the Golden State?

Dissolve the government. Dissolve the State Constitution. Start over.

In spite of how horribly things are doing, we're a lot better off than Michigan. The numbers may not say so, but the resources do. We have tremendous natural resources and 50 million people. You can do an awful lot with that.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:21 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Dissolve the government. Dissolve the State Constitution. Start over.

Wouldn't that cost even more to do and put extra burden on the citizens of that state? Haven't those citizens suffered enough??
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:53 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):

Wouldn't that cost even more to do and put extra burden on the citizens of that state? Haven't those citizens suffered enough??

If you have cancer, you sometimes have to go through some pretty severe side-effects to cut it out. Decades of voter ballot initiatives have bankrupted the state. Capping property taxes in 1970's? It's still killing us now.

California is not dying, the California government is dying. The state itself is going strong. We have too much going for us to just roll over and die. It's just too amazing of a place to live for it to just putter out. Did you read the article? We'd be a G8 nation if we were an independent country. There is certainly enough money flowing through the state, but the idiotic and labrynthine tax processes have made it impossible for the state to function. It's this tragic combination of Conservatives cutting taxes and Liberals raising spending.

Now Detroit, on the other hand, is dying. There is no more economy and the natural resources of the state are poor (been mined out, the soil isn't great for farming, and the weather hardly makes it a great year-round tourist destination).

But do you know how California could dig its way out of this mess? Use the resources! What's California's largest single cash crop? Cannabis. How much tax revenue does California make from this? Not a dime. Gee...  scratchchin  what could be part of the solution? Step 2: nix Prop 13. Freezing property taxes since the 70's? This is why you don't leave governing up to the people. You leave it up to the legislators they elect.

And the reason housing prices are so expensive is because, in spite of a decline in population of late, everyone still wants to live in California. With that much coastline, of course housing prices will be high. Everyone wants the famous house from that TV show in Laguna Beach.

The dream is still alive. But the state government is dying.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:40 pm



Quoting IgneousRocks (Reply 1):

-Oppressive tax burdens
-Overburdening regulations
-Ridiculous pandering to/for minority groups, the homeless, the environment, Hollywood, etc.
-Not addressing the state's energy and water woes
-Prohibiting offshore drilling
-Out of control housing costs and subsequent bust

i'll agree with you on these things but it seems like everyone wants to blame the liberal agenda...indeed republicans have been in control of the governor's mansion for quite some years now. The energy woes were addressed with the construction of new powerplants back in the 90s after the whole Enron fiasco and the rolling blackouts era. Thing is the minority is the majority in the major cities of CA..you gotta pander to them somewhat. Im glad CA has tough standards on the environment, etc.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:46 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Now Detroit, on the other hand, is dying. There is no more economy and the natural resources of the state are poor (been mined out, the soil isn't great for farming, and the weather hardly makes it a great year-round tourist destination).

So, not true and based on your anti-Michigan Bias once again and every one of these points is BS.

Michigan has a great Natural resource base and is not mined out. Agriculture is alive and well in Michigan, thank you very much, and when you are Up North in December/January tell me about the year round tourist biz

"Michigan has 42 ski areas, more than any state except New York"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...803.shtml?source=RSS&attr=_4658803

"Michigan's farm economy blossomed in the first few years of the 21st century, producing near-record sales as the state's industrial sector was crumbling, according to new government data."

http://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/i...at_states_agriculture_economy.html

[Edited 2009-10-04 09:00:47]
 
Pyrex
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:27 pm



Quoting Caliatenza (Thread starter):
What can be done to turn around the Golden State?

Place a few dynamite charges and/or tactical nukes along the San Andreas fault, tug it out to sea, buy beachfront property in Arizona.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:48 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):

Place a few dynamite charges and/or tactical nukes along the San Andreas fault, tug it out to sea, buy beachfront property in Arizona.

 Embarrassment  Yeah sure oh here we go again...
 
Mike89406
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:13 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 7):
So, not true and based on your anti-Michigan Bias once again and every one of these points is BS.

Michigan has a great Natural resource base and is not mined out. Agriculture is alive and well in Michigan, thank you very much, and when you are Up North in December/January tell me about the year round tourist biz

"Michigan has 42 ski areas, more than any state except New York"

Skiing. Are you serious? Michigan has nothing in comparison to West Coast skiing. Any mountain in “Michigan” or on the “East Coast” for that matter is a bunny Hill compared to anything in Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Western Canada, and Colorado. Anything in Michigan still doesn't appeal to me but thats just me. I can think of other Mid-West or East Coast destinations I’d rather settle down there.

Mike

[Edited 2009-10-04 11:32:47]
 
norcal
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:26 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 7):
"Michigan has 42 ski areas, more than any state except New York"

Are you going to try and argue Michigan has better skiing than CA? Two words, Lake Tahoe. Case closed.

We might not have that many, but I guarentee you we have way more skiable acres. We've got Heavenley at 4,800 acres and Squaw Valley at 4,000 acres. I wouldn't be surprised if those 2 alone offer more skiable acres than Michigan.


That said CA does have a ton of problems that need to be sorted out. We just can't seem to get anything done on time, on budget, or cheaply.
 
us330
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:08 pm

Quite frankly, they need to basically start anew in terms of their governance and legislature. Most of the points made here, especially regarding their system of taxation, pretty much summarize the problem.

I think California is beautiful, and one of the most unique places on Earth. I would love to live there, but the taxes, overburdened government regulation, and cost of property are major deterrents. (As it is, my dream would be to attend law school there).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The numbers may not say so, but the resources do. We have tremendous natural resources and 50 million people. You can do an awful lot with that

You also forget a major (and sometimes overlooked) resource that is capable of sustaining California for the long-term: arguably the nation's best public university system.
Berkeley and UCLA are top notch general schools, and several of their younger brethren, like UCSD, UC Davis, and UC Santa Cruz, have specialized programs and institutes that are among the best in their respective fields.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Capping property taxes in 1970's? It's still killing us now

What's interesting about that is that some income tax averse states (like Texas, for example), tax property at a higher level than the rest of the country.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:31 pm



Quoting Us330 (Reply 12):
I think California is beautiful, and one of the most unique places on Earth.

Ok I guess you are talking about the environment so I can't see what is unique about it, I can't think of much if anything in CA that can't be found elsewhere.
 
Flighty
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:38 pm



Quoting Caliatenza (Thread starter):
What can be done to turn around the Golden State?

The people responsible for squandering California's great wealth should be taken to account.

If California runs out of money, it shows they are corrupt and/or run by idiots, or that their voters have been taken for fools. It has nothing to do with "economic crisis." California is still one of the world's wealthiest regions, looking at the big picture since the dawn of humankind. Money isn't California's problem.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:21 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):

Ok I guess you are talking about the environment so I can't see what is unique about it, I can't think of much if anything in CA that can't be found elsewhere.

For example...take LA...u got the ocean, greenery, snow capped mountains, and the desert..all in one basin. In the morning u can be at the beach, the afternoon up in the mountains, in the evening back in the city.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:41 pm



Quoting Caliatenza (Reply 15):
For example...take LA...u got the ocean, greenery, snow capped mountains, and the desert..all in one basin. In the morning u can be at the beach, the afternoon up in the mountains, in the evening back in the city.

SYD has the same sort of things. The ocean, greenery, mountains and desert. Other than the cities and man-made stuff (Hollywood being the most famous), I really can't think of anything unique that CA has to offer.
 
Okie
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:53 pm

Somehow I remember a news story a while back that California only chance to balance the books was called a "Progressive Flat Tax"

It did not make any sense to me.

Does that mean a Flat Tax with the word progressive on the front to get the Dems on board.

or

Does that mean a Progressive Tax with the word flat to get the Repubs on board.

I am baffled

Okie
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:17 pm



Quoting Caliatenza (Reply 15):
snow capped mountains, and the desert

Within the city limits, musta missed them on my many visits to LA. You can get most of what is in California in New Zealand, snow capped mountains, desert, ocean, greenery plus less tax, free education and healthcare. Better move to NZ, like CA but with a better government and it's not going broke!  wink 
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:23 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 11):
Are you going to try and argue Michigan has better skiing than CA?



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 10):
Skiing. Are you serious? Michigan has nothing in comparison to West Coast skiing. Any mountain in “Michigan” or on the “East Coast” for that matter is a bunny Hill compared to anything in Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Western Canada, and Colorado. Anything in Michigan still doesn't appeal to me but thats just me. I can think of other Mid-West or East Coast destinations I’d rather settle down there.

Why don't you read the articles before posting, it would really help.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:33 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 17):

If you study the Fair Tax proposal, you will see something called a "prebate". The prebate is a check that every citizen (regardless of income level) would get every month. Say it's $1,000. Now let's say you have a flat tax of 35%;

If you make $10,000 a year, your effective tax rate is negative, since you will get $12,000 in checks and you only paid $3,500 in taxes.

If you make $100,000, you get the same $12,000 a year but pay $35,000 in taxes. Your effective tax rate is 23%, even though the official rate is 35%.

While on it's face it may look like a flat tax, it's really not.

ps: the fair tax proposal wants the 35% or so to be a sales tax, not an income tax. This is to avoid taxing money people would otherwise save and not spend.

[Edited 2009-10-04 14:39:04]
 
7324ever
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 9:36 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 16):
I really can't think of anything unique that CA has to offer.

To be honest there really isn't anything "Unique" You can get all the same things but around the world, Its more or less convenient. But California really is something else.


I say a few things are

1.) More wide spread use of Alternate power like nuclear

2.) Legalize gay marriage (again)

3.) Stop all the immigrants coming in from South of the border and Asia and take out who's there illegally

4.) One even flat tax to bring in a steady flow of income

[Edited 2009-10-04 14:37:34]
 
norcal
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:49 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 19):
Why don't you read the articles before posting, it would really help.

I did read the article and comparing Michigan skiing to CA (or any midwest skiing to western skiing) is like comparing a county fair to Disney World or Universal Studios. There just really is no point. It would be like talking up California's petroleum production to an Alaskan. The Alaskan simply wouldn't care and wouldn't see merit in such a pointless argument.

Now I've been to Michigan multiple times and I really like Michigan, I just wouldn't use skiing as an argument for how awesome Michigan is. There are way better arguments to use.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:56 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 22):
Now I've been to Michigan multiple times and I really like Michigan, I just wouldn't use skiing as an argument for how awesome Michigan is

NorCal, you are missing the point. No one in their right mind is debating that Western skiing isn't better by a zillion percent. The point was Doc saying that we have no tourism in Winter in Michigan. I had to counter that by pointing out that Michigan is one of the larger ski markets in the country, period, that is a fact. We all go up North multiple times a year, spend big bucks at Boyne, Boyne Highlands, etc., and will go out west too.

I was just pointing out a fact, not saying that our hills compare to your mountains, ok?
 
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OA412
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:17 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 10):
Any mountain in “Michigan” or on the “East Coast” for that matter is a bunny Hill compared to anything in Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Western Canada, and Colorado.

You're not mentioning Utah in the list of great skiing destinations in the Western US was just an oversight right?   

[Edited 2009-10-04 16:22:04]
 
Mike89406
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:58 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 10):
Any mountain in “Michigan” or on the “East Coast” for that matter is a bunny Hill compared to anything in Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Western Canada, and Colorado.

You're not mentioning Utah in the list of great skiing destinations in the Western US was just an oversight right?


I should have specified Western US  Smile

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 19):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 10):
Skiing. Are you serious? Michigan has nothing in comparison to West Coast skiing. Any mountain in “Michigan” or on the “East Coast” for that matter is a bunny Hill compared to anything in Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Western Canada, and Colorado. Anything in Michigan still doesn't appeal to me but thats just me. I can think of other Mid-West or East Coast destinations I’d rather settle down there.

Why don't you read the articles before posting, it would really help.

I was being Factious about your state.  Silly In all seriousness I'm sure Detroit and Michigan has it's charms just like anywhere. Having a litlle Sunday fun.....

Mike
 
ltbewr
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:20 am

This article has some serious flaws but is does present a viewpoint that the State of California is going through a serious and painful crises they may never fully recover from. The scariest part is that no one really knows how to resolve it. It should be a subject to a deep and through debate and discussion including in books, academic studies and then action by it's government as well as the Federal Government. We just can't blame Conservatives, Liberals, Corporate interests or political leaders as all have their contributions.

One group of suggestions includes redoing the state government. Perhaps a major starting point is amending the current State Constitution to make more difficult the currently excessively easy citizen Inititave - Proposition process. Far too often the 'Props' have led to terrible policy as to property tax and others tax policy and as we saw last year, the infimous Prop 8 ending the legality of same gender marriage. Once that is changed to limit the issues that can be brought up with the use of initiatives, it would giving back the correct and proper place of the legisgature to create laws. Tied with it should be much more severe limits and greater transparancy as to the campaign financing of political canidates in the state to end the control of too many by corporate and rich interests.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:16 am



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 7):

"Michigan has 42 ski areas, more than any state except New York"

And most of those ski areas, like Boyne Mountain and Highlands, Mount Brighton, Mount Holly, etc. are...

landfills. And that is a raw fact.

Quoting Us330 (Reply 12):
Berkeley and UCLA are top notch general schools,

Well, Berkeley not so much.  Wink  duck  (Go Cardinal!)
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:29 am



Quoting 7324ever (Reply 21):
2.) Legalize gay marriage (again)

Sorry I know I'm going to get flamed for this but how is legalising gay marriage going to help California, isn't that just pandering to minorities which many here have said is one of the problems with the state?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:20 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
And most of those ski areas, like Boyne Mountain and Highlands, Mount Brighton, Mount Holly, etc. are...

landfills. And that is a raw fact.

What? Boyne and the Highlands are landfills? WTF are you talking about?

Have you even been to Boyne? You really need to stop your nonsense it is really getting pathetic.

By spewing such crap you are just proving that you know nothing of the area and are just intent on bashing once again the people and state of Michigan. I wonder what your true motivation is?

I dare anyone to open this and tell us all what kind of "landfill' they see!


http://www.boyne.com/index.asp
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:03 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Capping property taxes in 1970's? It's still killing us now.

This is the single biggest thing that has stuffed California up! I can't believe this hasn't been fixed! California (ok other states probably are too) infrastructure is falling to bits.... just look at the freeways... most are rough as guts! No wonder why American cars have such soft suspension! Also whilst it is a drought, the fact that little has been done to alleviate or minimalise the effects of the water shortage are hurting CA... one of the simplest things would be to introduce half flush toilets to CA... I have yet to see one there... so much wasted water as a result!
 
norcal
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:32 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 30):
This is the single biggest thing that has stuffed California up! I can't believe this hasn't been fixed! California (ok other states probably are too) infrastructure is falling to bits.... just look at the freeways... most are rough as guts! No wonder why American cars have such soft suspension! Also whilst it is a drought, the fact that little has been done to alleviate or minimize the effects of the water shortage are hurting CA... one of the simplest things would be to introduce half flush toilets to CA... I have yet to see one there... so much wasted water as a result!

Whenever there is a new project to better infrastructure there is always a ton of red tape and special interest groups to go through. The Sierra Club for instance is fighting hard against the HSR project because the Pacheco pass has some frog that could be put in danger if they take that route instead of the Altamont pass (the Pacheco pass is the preferred route). The HSR is supposed to remove a ton of cars from freeways and improve emissions in the process so I wonder if they are missing the "big picture." I'm not a frog expert but honestly how much damage could be done by two tracks going through the hills?

Another big problem is Prop 13 which prevents the raising of property taxes. It is insane my neighbors, who have owned their house since the 70s, only pay about $400 a year!!!

It was a big problem when passed because CA would simply raise property taxes whenever we had budgetary shortfalls. Taxes were rising so fast that it was forcing old people out of their homes. I think the idea of the law was to make the state government work to be more efficient instead of raising taxes when they needed money. Well the state has proven it is anything but efficient.

It used to be the CA had the highest taxes but in return for that you got arguably the best infrastructure, schools, hospitals, etc. Now we still have the highest taxes but we are near the bottom in terms of services provided. Texas provides much better services across the board than we do now and have lower taxes. I just have to scratch my head and wonder what the heck is going on.

We need a total revamp of our state the problem is no one wants to make cuts anywhere.

Quoting Doc Lightning (Reply 27):
Well, Berkeley not so much. (Go Cardinal!)

Stanford is a good school but Berkeley is world class too, despite your bias  Wink

Quoting Kiwi Rob (Reply 28):
Sorry I know I'm going to get flamed for this but how is legalising gay marriage going to help California, isn't that just pandering to minorities which many here have said is one of the problems with the state?

The problem is every damn year the voters pass a proposition outlawing gay marriage and then some activist judge strikes down the law. Then the anti-gay marriage crowd works to get another proposition on the ballot (sometimes resulting in a special election which cost $$$) to get the ban passed again. The cycle repeats over and over again and it's annoying. They should just allow gay marriage for the sole reason of ending the expensive elections!

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 23):
I was just pointing out a fact, not saying that our hills compare to your mountains, ok?

Gotcha, Michigan really is a great state despite what others may say.
 
MSNDC9
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:41 pm



Quoting Caliatenza (Thread starter):
As per the huffington post: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...t/04/california-failing-state-debt

I trully hope not...and it would just reflect how bad this economic crisis has gotten. Ive lived in CA for most of my life and ive never seen things this bad. What can be done to turn around the Golden State?

I think its pretty clear California has failed. On every front. A few other states aren't far behind.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:59 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 30):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Capping property taxes in 1970's? It's still killing us now.

This is the single biggest thing that has stuffed California up! I can't believe this hasn't been fixed! California

It is not the capping the property taxes in the '70s that caused todays problems for California. If they were not capped, where would CA be today as a livable state? CA has had many boom years between that proposition and today. Their problem is overspending, liberal political landscape, over regulations, and a state government that just doesn't care about business or the tax payers.

Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 32):
I think its pretty clear California has failed. On every front. A few other states aren't far behind.

Correct, New York, Michigan, Massachusetts, Oregon, Washington, IL, PA, and about a dozen other states are also in big econoimic trouble. Why? Just look at which political party controls them.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:00 pm



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 29):

What? Boyne and the Highlands are landfills? WTF are you talking about?

Have you even been to Boyne? You really need to stop your nonsense it is really getting pathetic.

I have been to Boyne probably more times than you have. It was a natural hill and more dirt was piled on top of it to make it higher in the 30's, when it was developed. That's called landfill. It's probably the best skiing in the state of Michigan, and yet a "Black" run would qualify as a moderate "Blue" anywhere west of the Rockies.

Are you now going to deny that Mt. Holly is a landfill?

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 23):
The point was Doc saying that we have no tourism in Winter in Michigan.

Find the quote. Where did I say that? Gee, you didn't notice all the cross-country skiing, skating, snowshoeing, winter hunting, ice fishing, enchanted snowy forests that northern michigan has? It's just sad that 20 years ago, southern Michigan also had all that, too. Now, the climate has changed so the lakes in southern Michigan don't freeze over solidly enough to ice fish or ice skate.

Now, back to California, which is the topic of this post:

The state government may well fail. In fact, I hope it does. It needs to. The systems that we have set up right now are absolutely absurd. The citizens have been given the right to almost completely self-govern and there is no centralized oversight. So if in one citizen initiative, I abolish all taxes and in the next initiative I approve a massively expensive project, then it happens. Even the state Constitution can be changed that way. That's not democracy; it borders on anarchy.

We need higher property taxes. Like *way* higher property taxes. We need to tax the things that we have that we aren't taxing. And we need to stop absurd spending programs that accomplish nothing. There is too much economy in this state for the government to be bankrupt.

Oh, and the Governator? Great action movie actor. Shoulda kept his day job. We need someone who actually has some education in how to run a state.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:16 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
I have been to Boyne probably more times than you have

I doubt it. You're still a bit younger then me (I won't hold your immaturity against you).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 23):
The point was Doc saying that we have no tourism in Winter in Michigan.

Find the quote

Here you go.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
the weather hardly makes it a great year-round tourist destination).



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
It was a natural hill and more dirt was piled on top of it to make it higher in the 30's, when it was developed.

That is incorrect, where do you come up with these tidbits of fiction. Please provide a fact to back that up.
 
us330
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:43 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Well, Berkeley not so much.

At least it's not a junior university....
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:44 pm

the Prop 13 argument is a compplete canard. The average house is resold every 5 years, at which time the tax is readjusted to the inflated new sales price. Any lost revenues from residential caps were long ago overcome. It has also insured that Granny doesn't get taxed out of her home because demand for Cal real estate is so high.

There is a good arguement to be made about business properties, probllem is, they alredy have been regulated out of the state.

This is what one party rule has gotten us, and no, a republican governor is not enough to stop it.
 
slider
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:30 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 26):
The scariest part is that no one really knows how to resolve it.

Oh, there are plenty of ideas to resolve it. The problem is that no one HAS the resolve to do it.

There is a lack of testicular fortitude in CA that has allowed small interests to dominate common sense, economic and fiscal responsibility, and it's destroying the state.

Rampant envirocultism, unchecked illegal immigration, educational mismanagement just to name a few.

Yet at every turn, I'm always told that CA is home to the best and brightest, smartest most erudite minds. The elitists who scoff at flyover country can't even get out of their own way in their home state. Ironic.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:46 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Now, back to California, which is the topic of this post:

Then why did you feel the need to do this?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Now Detroit, on the other hand, is dying. There is no more economy and the natural resources of the state are poor (been mined out, the soil isn't great for farming, and the weather hardly makes it a great year-round tourist destination).



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Gee, you didn't notice all the cross-country skiing, skating, snowshoeing, winter hunting, ice fishing, enchanted snowy forests that northern michigan has? It's just sad that 20 years ago, southern Michigan also had all that, too.

I'm not sure what dreamland you lived in, but it has been more than twenty years since we had any enchanted snowy forests around here. Tell, exactly where all of this was in your mind in 1989?
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 11227
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:54 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Oh, and the Governator? Great action movie actor. Shoulda kept his day job. We need someone who actually has some education in how to run a state.

You did have a chance to keep Gray Davis.  duck   duck   duck 

Being a Republican Governor in California would be like a fish trying to swim up stream in the Colorado River, then trying to jump over the Hoover Dam in one jump.
 
Starbuk7
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:09 pm

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:04 pm



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 30):
Also whilst it is a drought, the fact that little has been done to alleviate or minimalise the effects of the water shortage are hurting CA... one of the simplest things would be to introduce half flush toilets to CA... I have yet to see one there... so much wasted water as a result!

Nope, the biggest thing CA needs to do is look west, gee, it's the Pacific Ocean. Had they been building desalinization plants, they would never had run into this problem.

The U.S. Navy has been using these things in their ships for decades. An aircraft carrier with one plant provide enough fresh water to feed and shower 6000 sailors a day, not including the 600 gallons used for each aircraft catapult shot.

California's biggest problems are the people running the state, ALL OF THEM!!!!! (R or D)
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13776
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RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:06 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 31):
The problem is every damn year the voters pass a proposition outlawing gay marriage and then some activist judge strikes down the law. Then the anti-gay marriage crowd works to get another proposition on the ballot (sometimes resulting in a special election which cost $$$) to get the ban passed again. The cycle repeats over and over again and it's annoying. They should just allow gay marriage for the sole reason of ending the expensive elections!

Or maybe gay Californians just have to accept that the majority wants something else and they just have to live with the situation.
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:43 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
Or maybe gay Californians just have to accept that the majority wants something else and they just have to live with the situation.

Quite honestly I don't care which side wins, I'm just sick of the back and forth that is costing millions in elections and drawing attention away from serious issues.

I want one side to win and that to be the end of it. It's kind of like abortion, every presidential election it's a big issue when there are much bigger issues like our national defecit.
 
MSNDC9
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:14 pm

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:08 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
We need higher property taxes. Like *way* higher property taxes.

No, you have to get the legislature to live within its means. Prop 13 is not the problem - runaway spending is California's problem.

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 37):
the Prop 13 argument is a compplete canard. The average house is resold every 5 years, at which time the tax is readjusted to the inflated new sales price. Any lost revenues from residential caps were long ago overcome. It has also insured that Granny doesn't get taxed out of her home because demand for Cal real estate is so high.

This is exactly right. The people benefiting today from Prop 13 are the one's who have or are soon to have a fixed income - in other words, Seniors. We're it not for Prop 13, California would tax granny more and spend more. California needs to learn how to control itself.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp83.pdf



[Edited 2009-10-05 15:01:50]
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22289
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:28 pm



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 44):

No, you have to get the legislature to live witin its means. Prop 13 is not the problem - runaway spending is California's problem.

No, there are always two sides. You need to get spending to match taxes.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):

Or maybe gay Californians just have to accept that the majority wants something else and they just have to live with the situation.

The majority wanted segregation in the 60's, so it should have stayed. Right, Superfly?

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 39):

I'm not sure what dreamland you lived in, but it has been more than twenty years since we had any enchanted snowy forests around here. Tell, exactly where all of this was in your mind in 1989?

In 5th grade, which would have been 1989, the first snow came before Thanksgiving and we were still sledding in March. We would go cross-country skiing on the lake. That was every winter in my childhood.

By 9th grade, that was all over. It was shockingly abrupt. I swear, DTW, I think you live in a very different Michigan than the one that exists on Earth, 2/3 of the way out from the core of the Milky Way galaxy. I mean, the one you live in apparently has better skiing than California!

Quoting Slider (Reply 38):

Rampant envirocultism,

I totally agree. Now, I am deeply concerned about the environment and the impact that humans have on it. But blocking wind farms to the benefit of continued coal-fired plants because you might hurt a salamander is absurd. Requiring about 3 acres of trees worth of paper to be filed before you can start a project is absurd.

We do need environmental regulation and planning, but the degree to which this has become a bureaucratic nightmare that does nothing to protect the environment is absurd.

Like I said, scrap the Constitution and start over.
 
MSNDC9
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:14 pm

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:49 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
You need to get spending to match taxes.

Actually, you need to get spending below taxes. The idea that the government should spend all or more than it takes in goes against all economic reason. Unfortunately, thats exactly what is happening in California.

You suggested increasing taxes to benefit the spending side of the equation. Thats just insane and will do nothing but lead to more problems.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:58 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
No, there are always two sides. You need to get spending to match taxes.

Considering that California already has one of the highest, if not highest, effective tax rates in the country where do you think there is more wiggle room?
 
MSNDC9
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:14 pm

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:02 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
The majority wanted segregation in the 60's, so it should have stayed. Right, Superfly?

You're comparing segregation to over taxation?
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22289
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Will CA Become America's First Failed State?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 48):

You're comparing segregation to over taxation?

No, he was talking about gay marriage, and I took the bait, which is off-topic, so we should stop the conversation and save it for one of the hundreds of gay marriage threads.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 47):

Considering that California already has one of the highest, if not highest, effective tax rates in the country where do you think there is more wiggle room?

My income taxes in California are lower than they were in New York.

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