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RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:54 pm
by Klaus


Quoting Averageuser (Reply 49):
Klaus, DRM is not going to harm you if you buy your legal titles in legal shops, is it not so?

No. In order to meet the BD licensing terms, the OS needs to be nailed shut to a degree that even normal operation and especially development will be restricted.

So even if I never intended to buy a single BD movie, I would still have to live with the negative consequences of such a decision.

And Apple would basically have to keep the BluRay association in the loop about their ongoing OS development plans in order to keep the option, with the BDA calling the shots regarding kernel development and being a likely source of leaks.

Now why in the world could Apple ever be reluctant about a juicy crap sandwich like that?

Quoting Averageuser (Reply 49):
"Major changes to operating systems" I think we discussed as well not long ago, and that was another major red herring if I recall.

Ah, the blessings of selective memory!  mischievous 

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:42 am
by AverageUser


Quoting Klaus (Reply 50):

No. In order to meet the BD licensing terms, the OS needs to be nailed shut to a degree that even normal operation and especially development will be restricted.

OK, tell me how this is going to affect a someone who's bought a legal title and goes to play it on her HP BluRay notebook? What restrictions would you reckon are due coming on her way?

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:20 am
by Elite


Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 47):
who complain they cant play games on Imacs Yeah sure

Well it is a little bit annoying sometimes; I have a 20 inch iMac (May 2008) and it works perfectly for everything, except when I want to play some games, I can't. Example: NBA 2K10. Yes, I probably should get a gaming device for that, but sometimes its just inconvenient. Hopefully they will expand Mac games soon.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:50 am
by bill142
I'm currently tossing up between the Macbook and the Macbook Pro. Apart from having an aluminium case, and SD card slot and being slightly smaller and lighter, I can't see a good argument for buying the Pro, at least in the 13 inch size. Am I missing something?

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:18 am
by Ken777


Quoting Bill142 (Reply 53):
I can't see a good argument for buying the Pro, at least in the 13 inch size. Am I missing something?

Probably not that much. Te Pro does have FireWire and there may be a few other bits, but the MacBook works for most people. When we started exchanging out equipment this past summer I went with the 13" MacPro and the wife went with the Air. The Air is slower, but both of us are pleased with our choice.

The only thing left is the iMac replacement and I'll wait for production to improve before heading that way. I want the 27", mainly because it generates some lust to own. First, though, I need to get the discounts lined up and wait for initial back orders to slow down.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:00 am
by cpd
This very topic was fresh in my mind this afternoon after having thought about if I should do a complete upgrade/rebuild for my main PC used for photo-editing (and Flight Simulator).

After looking very carefully at all the components available, I could find no options that really did have the bespoke quality of a Mac.

Cases were either aluminium/steel/plastic concoctions of dubious quality, or decent quality but lacking style, simplicity and elegance. And component selection an absolute nightmare, especially when trying to build a shopping list of components that will be quiet, cool-running and very fast.

Surely there must be someone out there who will build a PC with the same sort of quality and superb thoughtful design as a Mac? There has got to be a market for it - surely.

I just looked at a top-line Alienware System through Dell, AUD$6050, without even going to the absolute top CPU. And that's without a screen.  Sad Ridiculous. For that price, you'd get a fairly fast Mac Pro.

[Edited 2009-10-25 00:25:24 by cpd]

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:12 am
by bill142


Quoting Cpd (Reply 55):

Surely there must be someone out there who will build a PC with the same sort of quality and superb thoughtful design as a Mac? There has got to be a market for it - surely

Dell seems to have cottoned on to the idea with their Studio One line.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:58 am
by Elite
I'm glad they refreshed the mouse out of all items, and disappointed they didn't update the MacBook Pro lineup (although rumor says there will be a new one coming out in early 2010). Anyone who has used the old Apple Mighty Mouse will know that it is TERRIBLE!

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:20 am
by ManuCH


Quoting Cpd (Reply 55):
After looking very carefully at all the components available, I could find no options that really did have the bespoke quality of a Mac.

Even if you're looking for a PC (to run Windows with Flight Simulator, etc) and don't even want to see that Mac Operating System, you can still buy a Mac. Just erase everything and install Windows from scratch. I would never dream of doing this  Smile but hey, it works!

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:19 pm
by AverageUser


Quoting ManuCH (Reply 58):
I would never dream of doing this Smile but hey, it works!

Klaus has never answered me, but if you buy an external BluRay drive, will it play the movies in full resulution? I.e. have the "draconian measures" K. is keen on to see been implemented in hardware after all?

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:21 pm
by LHRjc
I'm contemplating buying a 13" MacBook Pro this week as my Dell's about dead. Looking at macrumors the Pro isn't due to be refreshed for another 4 months or so, so I'm guessing it's not a bad time to buy one right?

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:25 pm
by ManuCH


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 59):
Klaus has never answered me, but if you buy an external BluRay drive, will it play the movies in full resulution? I.e. have the "draconian measures" K. is keen on to see been implemented in hardware after all?

Under Mac OS X, if you connect an external BluRay drive it will only be good for data. You won't be able to play movies in full resolution, as OS X doesn't have the necessary DRM implemented. It would probably work on the same Mac under Windows, though.

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 60):
I'm contemplating buying a 13" MacBook Pro this week as my Dell's about dead. Looking at macrumors the Pro isn't due to be refreshed for another 4 months or so, so I'm guessing it's not a bad time to buy one right?

Yes, I'd buy now.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:42 pm
by Elite


Quoting LHRjc (Reply 60):
I'm contemplating buying a 13" MacBook Pro this week as my Dell's about dead. Looking at macrumors the Pro isn't due to be refreshed for another 4 months or so, so I'm guessing it's not a bad time to buy one right?

Yeah, probably get it now. The rumors are saying early 2010, but that could be anytime in the first quarter or maybe even early second quarter. Besides, with the constant upgrades Apple does, 4 months is pretty good.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:49 pm
by AverageUser


Quoting ManuCH (Reply 61):
It would probably work on the same Mac under Windows, though.

... or rather not work the same. Still I don't know why that should be a probable as well, since afaik the same video hardware plays BluRay in the so called genuine Windows boxes as well unless someone has disabled something. Mystery of our modern Apple times.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:31 pm
by Revelation


Quoting Averageuser (Reply 49):
Klaus, DRM is not going to harm you if you buy your legal titles in legal shops, is it not so? If a customer fancies spending her money the way she wants to, why would you out of all people complain,

As someone who has recently implemented a DRM-type scheme, it does cost everyone who uses the product.

It takes a lot of time and money to design, develop, debug and test these features, taking away the time and money from other features.

And once in place, it does add cost in setup time and run time and in hardware to run the necessary algorithms efficiently, and makes developer's lives more difficult.

I also believe in the end professional bootleggers find ways around most if not all of it.

On the other hand, I do see Apple's current position as temporary. I'll bet Apple will implement BD when they negotiate a better deal for themselves.

And I feel DRM ends up being necessary because if one does not defend their intellectual property it becomes de-facto public domain.

The best solution IMHO is to keep DRM off general purpose computers and leave playback of BluRay etc to stand-alone portable and non-portable players.

The next step beyond BD type DRM is very scary. It'll give software vendors almost total control on what software you can install on your computer, how long it will run for till they declare it end-of-life, etc. It very well could be like giving Apple the same amount of control over your MacBook applications as you do on your iPhone applications, or worse.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing

The bottom line is some people think bootleggers don't hurt the average user, but in fact they are wrong. They are giving vendors more and more justification for putting more and more draconian DRM into every aspect of technology.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:39 pm
by AverageUser
Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
As someone who has recently implemented a DRM-type scheme, it does cost everyone who uses the product

No doubt every scheme has a cost, after all we're living in a society that uses money.
Back to my question, have the Apple designers disabled anything on the hardware level so as not be able to play back BluRay properly natively when the system is booted into Windows?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
It'll give software vendors almost total control on what software you can install on your computer, how long it will run for till they declare it end-of-life, etc

Where've you been? I've seen software copy protection schemes (dongles etc) from almost day one.

[Edited 2009-10-25 08:46:34]

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:46 pm
by ManuCH


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 63):
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 61):
It would probably work on the same Mac under Windows, though.

... or rather not work the same. Still I don't know why that should be a probable as well, since afaik the same video hardware plays BluRay in the so called genuine Windows boxes as well unless someone has disabled something. Mystery of our modern Apple times.

I admit I didn't try it myself, but a quick search on Google reveals that it does indeed work:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=84989

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:57 pm
by AverageUser


Quoting ManuCH (Reply 66):
I admit I didn't try it myself, but a quick search on Google reveals that it does indeed work

Thanks mate, but .. the operative word is "full resolution", meaning a non-analogue display.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:46 pm
by Revelation


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 65):
Where've you been? I've seen software copy protection schemes (dongles etc) from almost day one.

Before implying I'm uninformed, you might want to read the reference link I provided.

Dongles get bypassed pretty easily because bootleggers can find the instructions in the program that check for the dongle and patch them with new instructions. With "trusted computing", this kind of tampering will be prevented at the OS level.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:58 pm
by ManuCH


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 67):
Thanks mate, but .. the operative word is "full resolution", meaning a non-analogue display.

On newer Macs, with a Mini-Displayport-to-HDMI connector which support HDCP it should work on digital, HDCP compliant displays. Only the Mini-Displayport-to-DVI adapter doesn't support HDCP.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:10 pm
by mt99
Id be happy if Snow Leopard MS exchange support was fixed... Is it me or it only works 30% of the time? No, the servers at work are up and running.. i can access them on my iphone and on my windows computer while at the same time cant access using my mac.

I cant even access my work webased OWA. It was fine w leopard...

Maybe our resident Mac Genius can help me out  Smile

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:34 pm
by LHRjc


Quoting Elite (Reply 62):
Yeah, probably get it now. The rumors are saying early 2010, but that could be anytime in the first quarter or maybe even early second quarter. Besides, with the constant upgrades Apple does, 4 months is pretty good.



Quoting ManuCH (Reply 61):
Yes, I'd buy now.

Cool, thanks guys, will order it tomorrow!

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:14 pm
by idealstandard


Quoting LHRjc (Reply 60):

Go for it.

I have the MacBook (same as the pro minus firewire) - same aluminium finish and its proper fast. Only a 2gig processor but i've got the office iMac 3.06 if i want to do anything more serious!!

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:14 pm
by AverageUser


Quoting Revelation (Reply 68):

Dongles get bypassed pretty easily because bootleggers can find the instructions in the program that check for the dongle and patch them with new instructions.

No, "got bypassed". You will trust the SSL protocols on the web, do you? No different, modern dongles are encryption processors. Even the physical silicon on them is protected.
Protection schemes will be with us, always. Programmers and their employers will need to get paid. I for one live in a local economy that relies heavily on software engineering jobs.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:45 pm
by Revelation


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 73):
No different, modern dongles are encryption processors. Even the physical silicon on them is protected.

DRM has escalated from simple software scrambling to external dongles to internal dongles.

Encryption processors are just part of the things one needs for a "trusted computing" system.

So far DRM has been mostly targeted at media such as DVD and BD, and encryption processors capable of effective DRM have been relatively rare.

Hopefully it'll stay that way.

If not, the OS vendor will have veto power over what software you can or cannot run on your device.

Right now Apple has that with iPhone, and I bet Microsoft would love to have it on Windows 8 and onward.

Actually there are "jailbreaks" enough for current iPhones, because iPhone isn't a TC, but again the trend is escalation in DRM, and everyone pays for it regardless of whether or not they steal content.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:21 pm
by LHRjc


Quoting Idealstandard (Reply 72):
I have the MacBook (same as the pro minus firewire) - same aluminium finish and its proper fast. Only a 2gig processor but i've got the office iMac 3.06 if i want to do anything more serious!!

Shame you can't get a waterproof MacBook if you are a toilet fitter!

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:30 pm
by AverageUser


Quoting Revelation (Reply 74):
If not, the OS vendor will have veto power over what software you can or cannot run on your device.

If you're talking about general purpose computing, then that OS vendor will not stay in business, as simple as that!
You might have overlooked one very important point, which is tamperproof applications for malware control.

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:38 pm
by idealstandard


Quoting LHRjc (Reply 75):
Shame you can't get a waterproof MacBook if you are a toilet fitter!

Interestingly was fitting some toilets at MAN airport today, what a dump that place is!!

RE: Apple Refreshes IMacs, MacBooks, Mac Minis & Mouse

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:29 am
by Revelation


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 76):
If you're talking about general purpose computing, then that OS vendor will not stay in business, as simple as that!

It's clear that there are a lot of DoD requirements driving TC. I can see someone like Microsoft introducing optional TC for those markets. Then I could easily see large enterprises insisting on TC bit by bit, as you say, to block malware. And then I can see software vendors insisting on TC first for high value software, and later for medium value software to prevent tampering used by bootleggers. Over time, optional will become not so optional.

I'm sure open source environments won't be all that interested in TC, so will remain a viable alternative. In fact it could bolster their use. But I see that TC will be very attractive to proprietary OS vendors, closed source SW vendors, and large enterprises, and over time certain important software may only be available for TC environments.