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Phoenix9
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Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:45 pm

This is just nuts. 10 Tonnes!! I wonder what the street value for that would be!


GUATEMALA CITY (Reuters) - U.S. and Guatemalan authorities captured a makeshift submarine loaded with an estimated 10 tonnes of cocaine in the Pacific Ocean off Guatemala, Guatemalan police said on Thursday.
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Four men aboard the vessel -- three Colombians and a Mexican -- were arrested when it was detained Wednesday night by U.S. anti-drug agents and the Guatemalan Coast Guard some 175 miles off Guatemala's Pacific Coast.


Full article here: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0...d/international_us_guatemala_drugs
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:47 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
This is just nuts. 10 Tonnes!! I wonder what the street value for that would be!

Probably at least 50 times what it would be if it were legal to buy at a dispensary.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:54 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Probably at least 50 times what it would be if it were legal to buy at a dispensary.

That is true, however, legalization of cocaine would cause a big problem with addiction related health expenses and overdose related deaths. I don't think any govt. would want to jump into that minefield.
 
greasespot
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:10 pm

Legalization will not work.....Only thing is jails will be less full with people charged with simple Possession.....People who are strung out on Cocaine are not working.....Therefore unless you gave it away for free they would still be doing B&E and robberies to pay for for the now legal drugs....

Here crack is cheap and people are still doing theses crimes to pay for it....If they do not have 10 bucks to pay for it they are still not going to have 5 bucks to buy legal crack...

Besides I have seen the devastation of people on Crack and cocaine...It is not something you want legalized...

Pot is another thing...To me I would like to see a simple ticket for possession... We still need a way to stop people from doing it when it Bugs neighbors.....I for one cannot stand the smell of Pot and when My next door neighbor had a party this summer i dropped a dime on them when they would not take it inside....Party was over once the Blues showed up(no charges just decided that smoking pot in back yard was no longer such a good Idea)

GS
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:19 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):
People who are strung out on Cocaine are not working..

Actually, that would be pot. Aside from artists, I've yet to see one person on pot working. Cocaine is a stimulant.

Crack is different because of its pharmacology. Pure cocaine HCl is not that addictive.
 
greasespot
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:40 pm



Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 4):
Pure cocaine HCl is not that addictive.

It sure as hell is when it is Injected.....Huge problem here as well as Shooting Oxy......Totally replaced Heroin...


)h and 50 tones of Cocaine a bunch of it will become crack

And since People want to legalize cocaine crack would be legal as well...

GS
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:44 am



Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 4):
Actually, that would be pot. Aside from artists, I've yet to see one person on pot working.

i have the total opposite experience. most of the people i know who smoked regularly actually had good career jobs. Pot doesn't make everyone a lazy SOB. Those people were likely going to be lazy with or without pot.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:03 am

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 6):

i have the total opposite experience. most of the people i know who smoked regularly actually had good career jobs. Pot doesn't make everyone a lazy SOB. Those people were likely going to be lazy with or without pot.

Did they ever work/go to work high? If they had a good career job AND smoked at work, well good on them. If not, your argument doesn't stand; mine was counter to the expression "people strung out on cocaine aren't working". Pot doesn't make everyone a lazy SOB except when one feels primary effects. In general, stimulants allow people to work, hallucinogens do not. Think adderall.

Greasespot, good point regarding the injection; that's true.

Nevertheless, I have to say, laws could make it so cocaine would be legal only in a certain form (HCl) and not in its freebase form.

[Edited 2009-10-22 19:04:33 by dc9northwest]
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:35 am

Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 7):
laws could make it so cocaine would be legal only in a certain form (HCl) and not in its freebase form.

Turning HCl salt to a freebase one won't be a big deal. There are plenty of sources online that show you how to do that and more. If people want to abuse it, they will find a way.

The average street value seems to be roughly $100/gram based on some websites.

[Edited 2009-10-22 19:40:55]
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:40 am

Again, that's not the issue, now is it? Greasespot was saying that crack and cocaine would both be legal or illegal, which is not necessarily true.

Anyone with minimal knowledge on the subject can convert coke into crack, but the post was about legality, not abuse.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 9):
Anyone with minimal knowledge on the subject can convert coke into crack, but the post was about legality, not abuse.

I understand that. But if they make it legal in one form, abusers can buy it legally and then convert it to whatever form they want to use - legal or not. Granted selling the illegal form would get you into a lot of trouble, but whats to stop them if they just want to use it for themselves.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:18 am

Same thing stopping them now: nothing. If they want/need it, they'll have access to it, no matter the legality.

Is that 100 per one gram of pure cocaine, or 1 gram or whatever they sell on the streets? I'm guessing the latter.

I hear it's about 20,000$ per kilo (and no i don't know anyone selling kilos of cocaine), meaning 10 tonnes is about 200 million wholesale. $100/gram means, well, 1 billion dollars for this quantity.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:33 am

Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 11):
1 gram or whatever they sell on the streets

Its 1 gram of the cut cocaine they sell on streets.

So I guess some people or group of people would have made a lot of money if it ended up being in the wrong hands and selling for a total of 1 billion dollars!!

Edit: Typos...time for me to sleep I guess

[Edited 2009-10-22 20:46:59]
 
baroque
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:43 am



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 5):
Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 4):
Pure cocaine HCl is not that addictive.

It sure as hell is when it is Injected.....Huge problem here as well as Shooting Oxy......Totally replaced Heroin...


)h and 50 tones of Cocaine a bunch of it will become crack

And since People want to legalize cocaine crack would be legal as well...

Quite possibly mostly true, but the sad fact is that each time an addictive substance gets the "legal treatment", another substance appears on the market that is more addictive and has worse side effect.  Wow!

Opium - heroin

Coca leaves - cocaine - crack cocaine

Opiates - synthetics

And under what circumstances and for what purpose was the hypodermic needle invented and who was the first person to die from its use?

There is a whole pharmacopoeia out there waiting to ambush the legal process.

Meanwhile ethanol and nicotine career on their merry ways causing much more havoc than any of the "illegal" drugs.
 
brons2
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:37 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):

Four men aboard the vessel -- three Colombians and a Mexican -- were arrested when it was detained Wednesday night by U.S. anti-drug agents and the Guatemalan Coast Guard some 175 miles off Guatemala's Pacific Coast.

Seems like 175 miles off the coast would be in international waters. How do they make a legit arrest in that case?
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:45 am



Quoting Brons2 (Reply 14):
Seems like 175 miles off the coast would be in international waters. How do they make a legit arrest in that case?

Maritimes rights / territory rights extend to 200 NM - thats 370 km. They were definitely not in international waters.
 
greasespot
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:49 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 15):

Maritimes rights / territory rights extend to 200 NM - thats 370 km.

more than 200 km they just sink it with all hands....

I do not think any country would let that much dope go even if it was outside the 200nm range...they would seize it and deport crew with no charges....what are the cartels gonna do sue to get dope back?


gs
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:57 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 2):

That is true, however, legalization of cocaine would cause a big problem with addiction related health expenses and overdose related deaths.

Just like legalization of alcohol caused a big problem with addiction-related health expenses? And just like legalization of tobacco did the same? I bet coke would cause a lot less harm than these two even if legalized and available at the corner store.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):
People who are strung out on Cocaine are not working....

Are you aware that 95+% of people who use coke do so occasionally? Just like people who drink?

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):

Besides I have seen the devastation of people on Crack and cocaine...It is not something you want legalized...

So have I. What alcohol does to you is far, far worse. What tobacco does to you is the worst of all. *shudder* At least coke is a "decent" drug and kills you quickly. Alcohol and Tobacco draw it out reeaaaaal slow.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:01 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Just like legalization of alcohol caused a big problem with addiction-related health expenses? And just like legalization of tobacco did the same? I bet coke would cause a lot less harm than these two even if legalized and available at the corner store.

Thats quite true. I didn't see it that way.

Legalizing these drugs would cut the drug cartels' money supply for sure.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:44 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 18):


Thats quite true. I didn't see it that way.

Legalizing these drugs would cut the drug cartels' money supply for sure.

AND, even in the absolute worst-case scenario where anyone who touches cocaine becomes a fiend, it will still cost us less than the war on drugs that we can't ever win.

Did you know that governments have banned coffee, chocolate, tobacco, and even alcohol? Guess what?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:22 am

Going back to the subject... Where do you go and buy a second hand submarine???
 
baroque
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:30 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Just like legalization of alcohol caused a big problem with addiction-related health expenses? And just like legalization of tobacco did the same? I bet coke would cause a lot less harm than these two even if legalized and available at the corner store.

 checkmark  And for those curious about the invention and the purpose of the hypodermic needle:
http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blsyringe.htm
And according to a BBC program on the shambles of drug policing, the first casualty was Dr Wood's wife. Talk about blowback!!
 
greasespot
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:32 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
Are you aware that 95+% of people who use coke do so occasionally? Just like people who drink?

Yup but I deal with those 5% regularly and those 5% create a and untold amount of havoc for the 95%...

GS
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:15 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 20):
Where do you go and buy a second hand submarine???

I don't think it was a second hand submarine....more like "homemade" one.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:31 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 23):
I don't think it was a second hand submarine....more like "homemade" one

Homemade submarine at 175 miles off the coast?
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:45 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 24):
Homemade submarine at 175 miles off the coast?

Yup! When you got millions in drug money coming in, making up a semi-usable submarine wouldn't be too hard. AFAIK, these are not like the submarines as we know them....they are more like semi-submersibles, moving around just a few feet below the surface.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:58 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 24):
Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 23):
I don't think it was a second hand submarine....more like "homemade" one

Homemade submarine at 175 miles off the coast?

Most likely not even a full submarine, rather a submersible, with a very low superstructure (maybe just the top of the hull and a low conning tower peaking out above the waves, therefore a very low radar signature) and maybe able to submerge for a short time (up to an hour or so) to just below the surface in case of a threat.
The British SOE had had something designed like this during WW2 called the "Welfreighter". A smaller oneman version was called the "Sleeping Beauty". The ijntention was to use those vehicles to infiltrate spies and sabotage agents and their equipment behind enemy lines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfreighter
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soe_gallery_11.shtml

It is quite possible that the drug gansters came up with the same concept.

Jan
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:31 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 22):

Yup but I deal with those 5% regularly and those 5% create a and untold amount of havoc for the 95%...

Yup. Just like alcoholics and people who have been smoking 3 packs/day for 50 years.
 
eirbus06
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:28 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
This is just nuts. 10 Tonnes!! I wonder what the street value for that would be!

Hey Phoenix, 1.5tons of cocaine was seized off the cork coast (Ireland) in 2007 with a street value of 500 Million Euros so that would put this haul at around 3.3 Billion euros.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting Eirbus06 (Reply 28):
around 3.3 Billion euros.

Thats nuckin' futs! That must have sent a shockwave in the drug cartel world. Good for them!
 
eirbus06
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:30 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 29):
Thats nuckin' futs! That must have sent a shockwave in the drug cartel world. Good for them!

Ya,it was being carried by 3 guys on a yacht, if they ever get out of jail there gonzo (IMO).
 
IADCA
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:43 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 15):
Maritimes rights / territory rights extend to 200 NM - thats 370 km. They were definitely not in international waters.

The EEZ doesn't provide for criminal enforcement jurisdiction except for fisheries violations, and even then it's carefully cabined. Read the Law of the Sea treaty. The drug enforcement patrols are done under much looser international standards, many of them based on effects jurisdiction and other fairly ambiguous legal rationales. In short, they're actually pretty legally dubious, since even when done under treaty, they're pursuant to delegated enforcement rights that the delegating state doesn't possess.
 
greasespot
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
Yup. Just like alcoholics and people who have been smoking 3 packs/day for 50 years.


um not really. Maybe for the alcoholics but I have not really heard of a guy going out and doing B&E and street robberies for cigarettes. Smoking may be disgusting but it does not generally make a person violent.

GS

[Edited 2009-10-26 06:52:45 by greasespot]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:13 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 32):

um not really. Maybe for the alcoholics but I have not really heard of a guy going out and doing B&E and street robberies for cigarettes.

That's because cigarettes are legal. Were they difficult to obtain, believe me, you would have addicts committing crimes to get them.

Think of the billions of dollars this could inject into our economy.

Oh, and for the record, I've never touched coke. Never will, either.
 
LH526
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:32 pm

Quoting Phoenix9 (Thread starter):
This is just nuts. 10 Tonnes!! I wonder what the street value for that would be!

Given it's pure cocaine and not cut down the street market value (depending on location and quality) can be significantly in the couple-a-Billion USD region.

[Edited 2009-10-26 10:33:50 by LH526]
 
lszb
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:46 pm

 
N1120A
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:45 pm

I'm not really for a legalization of any currently illegal drug other than marijuana, which should be as legal, taxed and regulated as alcohol. I do think the criminal penalties for simple possession ought to be removed, however, and a policy toward drug treatment for addicts be substituted. Then again, I think a brutally honest cost-benefit analysis should be done on the actual costs and benefits of legalizing hard drugs, including those focused so foolishly on drug cartels, and their legalization, regulation and taxation considered.

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 2):
That is true, however, legalization of cocaine would cause a big problem with addiction related health expenses and overdose related deaths

Actually, it probably wouldn't. Who is to say that more people would do cocaine because it was legal? Cigarettes are perfectly legal and far fewer people smoke now than before because the risks are known.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):
.People who are strung out on Cocaine are not working..

Actually, cocaine is one drug that probably doesn't have that side effect. You have to worry far more about direct health consequences with cocaine, like your heart blowing into a thousand pieces, than you do about anti-social stuff.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):

Pot is another thing...To me I would like to see a simple ticket for possession...

No ticket, no nothing. Pot should be as legal as alcohol. Taxed heavily and regulated too. Hell, turn the LCBO into the LMCBO and watch your province earn millions, if not billions.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 13):

Coca leaves - cocaine - crack cocaine

Coca leaves also - Coca-Cola. To this very day.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 13):

Opium - heroin

That is not really fair. It went this way:

Opium - Morphine - Heroin.

You know why? Because Bayer invented Heroin looking for a stronger, less addictive form of Morphine. They ended up with the opposite, as Morphine probably has better pain killing characteristics but is less addictive. In the end, Heroin was a perfectly legal drug until Temperance screwed the world into the violent, costly "war" we have now.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 32):
Smoking may be disgusting but it does not generally make a person violent.

It just kills non-users more than any of the other drugs we are talking about combined.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:37 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Actually, cocaine is one drug that probably doesn't have that side effect. You have to worry far more about direct health consequences with cocaine, like your heart blowing into a thousand pieces, than you do about anti-social stuff.

 thumbsup 

Thank you!

You know who used coke while working? Freud and RL Stevenson are two. I would say they worked, considering they're known 100 years later.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Then again, I think a brutally honest cost-benefit analysis should be done on the actual costs and benefits of legalizing hard drugs, including those focused so foolishly on drug cartels, and their legalization, regulation and taxation considered.

There's this Harvard Economics professor who argues that legalizing I think it was pot and coke (the two biggest markets) would bring in 44 billion dollars a year (this is US only). That money would cover any health costs (which would not increase dramatically, as some seem to think). That and crime would go down, waaaay down... in the US inner city areas at least.  thumbsup 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
It just kills non-users more than any of the other drugs we are talking about combined.

 thumbsup 

Yeah, it does. And.... guess what! Smoking stinks. A casual cocaine user can snort a line without bothering anyone, without anyone knowing (see movies). A casual cigarette smoker cannot do so. Many people dislike the smell of tobacco.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:21 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Morphine probably has better pain killing characteristics but is less addictive.

Actually, heroin is a better painkiller. In the UK it's called "diamorphine." It's great because it causes fewer side effects and it's far more potent. It just happens to have the one nasty side-effect (common to all opiates) that it can make the patient forget to breathe, which is always a bit annoying to have to deal with.

In the U.S. we can't have it, but we get meperedine (DILAUDID) and fentanyl and a few other goodies that are just as potent.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 32):
Smoking may be disgusting but it does not generally make a person violent.

No, the other legal inebriant, alcohol, does that quite fine. Or have you never seen mardi gras? It also makes people black out, get belligerent on airplanes, crash cars (people on cocaine probably drive pretty well, seeing as how it's a stimulant), etc.

Furthermore, alcohol has a very narrow "recreational index." That is to say that the difference between a recreational dose and a toxic dose is very small. 3 drinks is recreational. 6 drinks is toxic (and if you don't think 6 drinks in a sitting is toxic, you need to carefully examine your own drinking habits). For a small woman, 10-12 drinks could be fatal. At the University of Michigan, a gentleman celebrated his 21st birthday by drinking 21 shots in succession and died. Tragic, really. And the long-term effects of alcohol abuse are devastating, leaving aside the social aspects of it. Cirrhosis, accelerated aging, malnutrition, cancer... Awful. It destroys lives, too. How many homeless bums on the streets of San Francisco are drunks? How many are heroin addicts? The majority of bums with a substance problem use tobacco and booze. The majority of them aren't violent criminals.

Whereas many of the problems associated with, say, heroin, could be eliminated if it were clean and legal. It would cease to be a source of HIV transmission. It would cease to be a source of blood-borne infection period, including endocarditis. It would cause fewer overdoses because the amounts would be standardized and a user would know exactly how much he was getting. There would be zero crime associated with it because its production, sale, and use would be legal. Prices would plummet dramatically, making it cheap enough for the truly recalcitrant addicts to be nonviolent bums, rather than violent criminals. Yes, it still has the same "recreational index" problem that alcohol has, but it doesn't cause other ill effects, even when taken in the very long term. A great many Victorian figures spent their long, healthy lives hooked on laudanum (a tincture of opium...pretty strong stuff).

But I find it funny how, in spite of how alcohol may well be the most damaging recreational drug in existence, that so many opponents of drug legalization seem to enjoy drinking so much.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:56 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
Furthermore, alcohol has a very narrow "recreational index." That is to say that the difference between a recreational dose and a toxic dose is very small. 3 drinks is recreational. 6 drinks is toxic (and if you don't think 6 drinks in a sitting is toxic, you need to carefully examine your own drinking habits). For a small woman, 10-12 drinks could be fatal.

From what I understand, heroin has a safety ratio of 6 (6 times a recreational dose can make you OD, hence kill you), alcohol has a safety ratio of 10, and cocaine.... 15. If any one else can corroborate this, it should give valid evidence that alcohol is more prone to give you an OD than cocaine is. Nevertheless, cocaine causes I think it was tachycardia and arrythmia. Which put a huge stress on your heart when appearing at the same time. Is that right?

Also, as you said, Doc, most of the bums out there are alcoholics, not cocaine addicts. In my experience, alcohol users are more violent, more rowdy... Actually pure cocaine is supposed to relax whoever takes it, rather than make them violent. Which is what you'd be getting if it were legal.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:20 pm



Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 39):

From what I understand, heroin has a safety ratio of 6 (6 times a recreational dose can make you OD, hence kill you), alcohol has a safety ratio of 10, and cocaine.... 15. If any one else can corroborate this

If by "ratio" you mean the ratio of the lethal dose to the recreational dose expressed as:
SR=LD/RD, then for alcohol, it would be 5-10 depending on several factors (speed of drinking, amount of food in stomach, hydration status, inherent genetic ability to metabolize alcohol, etc.). I've seen absolutely astronomical blood alcohol levels where the patient lived and moderately-high levels where we damned near lost the patient and it was a good thing he was in an emergency room when he stopped breathing.

For heroin and cocaine, I don't know the numbers because it's hard to figure out the dosing. The thing is that people take heroin and cocaine differently than they drink. When people drink, they tend to stand/sit around and consume drink after drink. When people shoot heroin, they get their stuff together, shoot up, and then kick back and enjoy their high (admittedly, I don't think I've ever been around people who were using heroin). There isn't this repeated, long-term ingestion that people do with alcohol. Similarly, with cocaine, people tend to do a bump/line and then go off and party. It's rarely a deal of sitting around doing line after line after line.

Obviously there are addicts who do just that, but no amount of legislation or "War on Drugs" is going to stop these people, so I'd rather simply not spend a lot of money on trying to stop them and just let them kill themselves. It's a free country, right?

Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 39):
Actually pure cocaine is supposed to relax whoever takes it,

Pure cocaine is a stimulant in the dose and route of administration in which it is used. Most of the people I've seen on coke, though, were pretty mellow, although it definitely turns some people into complete jerks. Although usually those people started off as jerks. I've found that cocaine is a drug that seems to attract a lot of type-A, alpha-male jerks. But that's just my own observation.

Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 39):
Nevertheless, cocaine causes I think it was tachycardia and arrythmia. Which put a huge stress on your heart when appearing at the same time. Is that right?

Cocaine does two things to your heart. Cocaine causes blood vessels to constrict all over the body, including in the heart. This increases blood pressure, making the heart work harder, while reducing the blood supply to the heart. In addition, cocaine directly affects the heart's rate and contractility, making it work even harder. So you now have a heart that is working 2-3x resting speed with a reduced blood flow. And that's why a healthy 18yo can have a heart attack and die on coke.

Bottom line: I think that alcohol, heroin, and cocaine all have the potential to be horrible drugs that can destroy lives. That said, I believe strongly in the right of an adult to decide his own destiny and his own life. I don't think it should be the guvmint's job to decide what we're allowed to put in our own bodies, any more than I believe in fast food or soda bans for adults.'q
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:50 am

The dangers of having views similar to those of Doc L!!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8335189.stm


'More to quit' in drug advice row

Prof Nutt: 'My goal in life is to reduce the harms from drug use'

The UK's chief drugs adviser is predicting there will be resignations after he was forced to quit for criticising government policy.

Home Secretary Alan Johnson said the scientific independence of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs was undermined by Prof Nutt's comments.

The professor most recently criticised the decision to reclassify cannabis to Class B from C.

His sacking has been criticised by some drug research groups and MPs.

Prof Nutt told the BBC's Newsnight the confidence of government scientists had been undermined by his sacking and their work was being devalued.

"I hope there will be no more sackings but I would not be at all surprised if other members of my council resigned," he said.

"One has already told me he will resign and I wouldn't be surprised if others do."


Looks as if politics and scientific fact in relation to drugs are going to remain strangers. We have similar difficulties for Dr Alex Wodak here. Sad.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22254
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:46 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 41):
The dangers of having views similar to those of Doc L!!!!

Yup. It's obvious that the drug war is run by dogmatists who do not tolerate dissent. It's not about fact, it's about stamping out drugs.
 
GulfStreamGirl
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:26 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 3):
i dropped a dime on them when they would not take it inside....Party was over once the Blues showed up(no charges just decided that smoking pot in back yard was no longer such a good Idea)

RAT ...lol
 
GulfStreamGirl
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:31 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
I'm not really for a legalization of any currently illegal drug other than marijuana, which should be as legal, taxed and regulated as alcohol

Thing is , if you tax marijuana most people are just going to grow it themselves anyways , unlike alcohol and tobacco not many people have the ability to grow and brew their own supply.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26856
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:43 pm



Quoting Gulfstreamgirl (Reply 44):

Thing is , if you tax marijuana most people are just going to grow it themselves anyways , unlike alcohol and tobacco not many people have the ability to grow and brew their own supply.

Well, people don't necessarily grow much tobacco at home, but there are plenty of home beer brewers. That said, economies of scale, advertising and packaging will always favor industry. Hell, the tobacco growers should get into the pot business.
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22254
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:11 am



Quoting Gulfstreamgirl (Reply 44):

Thing is , if you tax marijuana most people are just going to grow it themselves anyways , unlike alcohol and tobacco not many people have the ability to grow and brew their own supply.

I guarantee that if you can run to the corner store and buy a pack of joints, most people will choose to do that.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2968
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:40 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
I believe strongly in the right of an adult to decide his own destiny and his own life

yes but when your destiny collides with mine that right needs to be contained....I live downtown and live in an area where we have homeless people and crack houses and rooming houses(they are spread throughout downtown here). I chose to live here and with all that i am pretty much more tolerant than people who live in the Suburbs...(most who call us about aggressive pan handlers or streetndrug use are visitors from the suburbs where they have never been exposed...

Professionally and personally I have seen the devastation of hard drugs...I harder jail time the answer?...No but then neither is legalizing it....I strongly believe that to keep areas like mine safe wee need laws and ways to enforce them.....Here it would be anarchy with out them....Do the same enforcement strategies need to be used in the suburbs?

Where does your right to use drugs and my right to not be bothered by them start and end?

GS
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2270
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:47 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 47):
Professionally and personally I have seen the devastation of hard drugs...I harder jail time the answer?...No but then neither is legalizing it....I strongly believe that to keep areas like mine safe wee need laws and ways to enforce them....

Well, crime would go way down if you'd legalize drugs (supposing you'd be able to get them at corner drugstores), cause you'd eliminate the need for street dealers, with whom violence is associated at this level.

Hence while drugs would still be consumed, most of the violence associated nowadays with drugs will disappear. Illegality breeds violence. Don't believe me? You don't have to. Read up on the Prohibition and what it led to.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Submarine Busted 10 Tonnes Of Cocaine Onboard

Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 47):
Professionally and personally I have seen the devastation of hard drugs.

Yes, but to be fair many of the bad sides of what you are seeing are arguably side effects of the current system of trying to suppress drug use. With a legal system many of these would go and the balance is far more difficult to establish.

Meanwhile, even Lord Winston has come to the party in the UK though he is not quoted in this BBC report.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8337185.stm

More colleagues of the government chief drugs adviser sacked by Alan Johnson have hinted that they could resign.

The home secretary will face MPs' questions later on his decision to remove Professor David Nutt over comments on cannabis policy.

Two members of the drugs advisory council have already quit and others have written to him urging a meeting.

They say a "majority" of the panel have "serious concerns" and question whether they can continue in "good conscience".
......

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said ministers had to "carry the can" but said policy must be based on evidence.

He told the BBC: "Any minister who hides away from scientific advisers who are saying clearly what the scientific evidence shows is frankly going to end up with policy which is a complete mess."


Winston commented that there are dangers in discounting the scientific evidence completely in favour of evidence from other lines of enquiry as best I can remember what he said on our local TV. And Winston is a Labour peer IIRC.

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