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N104UA
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The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:11 am

Preface- I do not live in Maine, I live in Colorado, I am not gay but many of my close friends are, I know that this is long but I feel that it must be.
-----
Yesterday (3 Nov 2009) Maine became another state to tell a group of citizens "You are second class citizens," This is focused to the people who voted for this or support those who do. WHY DO YOU CARE, why can you as the majority tell the minority that they can not marry, because they are different than you. I am not saying that your religion is required to support it, your church can be as discriminatory as you want. You say that we redefine marriage, well just so you know we have redefined marriage many times in the past, 45 years ago 16 states had laws on the books that did not allow interracial marriage, that means that the President of the United States. People who support these horrible laws quote the bible as fact why it is not right AMERICA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION (read the Treaty of Tripoli and Article XI if you have any questions about that) but what when Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." How would you feel if someone told you that you could not marry!! I know that another argument against gay marriage is "It is not healthy for children to grow up with out a mother and a father" Well then you are saying that every single mother and every single father is doing a bad job, then I would like you to be out there supporting a law prohibiting divorce (Jesus said that divorce is not in God's plan). If you do not support gay marriage I want to know HOW DOES THIS AFFECT YOU, nothing is going to happen to your marriage, your marriage will not become invalid, the world will not explode! If you can name one negative thing that will happen to straight people if gay marriage is made legal I really want to know. I can not believe that in 2009 we are telling people that they are second class citizens because of who they are!!
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Thems

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:18 am

They should be.



YAY!! I'm SO happy my fellow citizens can now be denied equal protection under the law! Looks like he won the goddamn superbowl.

Really, sickening, but I wouldn't be so happy either had the vote been 5% different. This is not the venue to determine minority rights. Denying gay marriage is unlawful under the equal protection guaranteed by the United States Constitution, and no popular referendum changes that. Just another example of how we are moving in the right direction, but bigotry, ignorance, and the theocrats who feed off and mobilize this is alive and well. How would a popular referendum on women's suffrage have gone back in the day? What about equal rights in the 1950s and 60's south?

[Edited 2009-11-03 23:19:21 by jpetekYXMD80]
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Airstud
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:21 am

For God's sake, the law doesn't say gay couples have to break up.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:24 am

Yeah, only have to break up if you're in the ICU trying to visit your partner and your attorney isn't by your side with a mountain of paperwork.

What the hell could your point be?
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Thems

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:26 am



Did he just win the Superbowl or defeat gay marriage!? 

[Edited 2009-11-03 23:28:59 by jpetekYXMD80]
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san747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:54 am



Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):

Now you know how those of us with brains in California felt almost exactly one year ago... I'm actually pretty surprised a New England state like Maine would overturn their same-sex marriage law... but I guess a lot of people were surprised when CA did too. Crazy world we live in.
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Airstud
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:00 am

Then put an initiative on the ballot to change the law so that a domestic partner has the same visitation rights as a spousicus. There's piles of polls that show the same people who oppose gay marriage have no objection to so expanding the rights of dp's.

Since the m word seems to set so many people off, why not just change the phraseology, is what my point is.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Thems

Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:10 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 6):
Then put an initiative on the ballot to change the law so that a domestic partner has the same visitation rights as a spousicus. There's piles of polls that show the same people who oppose gay marriage have no objection to so expanding the rights of dp's.

Since the m word seems to set so many people off, why not just change the phraseology, is what my point is.

Want to know what my point is? The 'm word' in most cases has been the preferred play-card of the opposition. Look at all the state marriage referendums in 2006 and 2008 which had absolutely no movement or prospect of gay marriage being legalized in the foreseeable future... through all the scare tactics and BS that went on so publicly in the CA referendum, untruths about education, child manipulation, Utah financiers trying to lead us to theocracy.

Sure, gay marriage has become legalized in some places, and i've been wary that some people have been to ambitious and it may backfire at some point. BUT, in the majority of cases with these referendums, not only are they the "m word", but are preemptive strikes at any kind of rights for gay relationships whatsoever.

They frequently have read like this: "Only a marriage between one man and one woman shall be valid or recognized as a marriage in this state. A legal status identical or substantially similar to that of marriage for unmarried individuals shall not be valid or recognized in this state."

WIth that second sentence: civil unions: BOOM. partnership benefits: BOOM.

In most cases this is not 'protecting marriage', its cold, callous, and most of all unconstitutional strikes at any kind of rights for homosexuals.

It's bigotry, it's bullshit, and anyone who supports that better get used to hearing a hell of a lot from me.

You are mostly right about the polls, and support rising for DPs, civil unions, whatever. BUT the ones in control of the opposition pulling the strings don't feel that way, and people have either ignorantly or intentionally decided that a word is more important than any kind of rights after being coerced into this decision by these referendums far beyond the scope of marriage. Either way, when push comes to shove, many of those "just not marriage" folks are talking the talk, certainly not walking the walk.

[Edited 2009-11-04 00:27:17 by jpetekYXMD80]
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san747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:31 am



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 7):

It's bigotry, it's bullshit, and anyone who supports that better get used to hearing a hell of a lot from me.

I'll be right with you. There is no excuse for supporting restricting rights to a group of people. I'm actually wondering, just like last year with the whole CA Prop 8 fiasco, why this issue is one that can be voted on? I thought the whole basis of our country's Constitution was that minorities can't just be deprived of rights over the whims of the majority.
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MSNDC9
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 am

Quoting San747 (Reply 8):
I'm actually wondering, just like last year with the whole CA Prop 8 fiasco, why this issue is one that can be voted on? I thought the whole basis of our country's Constitution was that minorities can't just be deprived of rights over the whims of the majority.

Couple of reasons.

1. Marriage isn't recognized at the Federal level for anyone. Generally speaking, the Fed doesn't care about your marital status and it honors civil unions so there's no equal protection issue. They simply won't get involved in a State sanctioned issue. That said, if you have a constitutional amendment, then that would obviously change.

2. Marriage is generally considered an act or a rite. The State generally issues a license to allow the act or rite to be performed, and by definition a license can be revoked if the terms of the license do not conform to State Law. If the constitution allows voters to define what the terms of license issuance are, then you get the California result. In legal terms, a marriage license in every state doesn't hold any more weight than a Driver License does. Its the certification of an event (i.e... You aren't marrying your mom/dad, your sister/brother, aunt/uncleor a cousin and that you only have one husband/wife - some states have different standards here as well with regard to how far out on a limb of a family tree you have to go to be legal).

It seems to me that those who want to see gay marriage on the books are going about it the wrong way. I personally prefer the State oversight of Marriage just go away period and Marriage be left to the Church where it was until Polygamy became an issue when Utah became a State (the irony of Mormon Church involvement on this issue). This alone would end the debate. Those who aren't part of a church get a civil union - problem solved. If people want a ceremony to go along with it, then by all means - have at it.

People chucking the bible around on one side and screaming about it on the other side aren't going to gain any points here. I'm pretty much sick of hearing about it from both sides.

[Edited 2009-11-04 01:33:25]
 
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:20 am



Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 9):
People chucking the bible around on one side and screaming about it on the other side aren't going to gain any points here. I'm pretty much sick of hearing about it from both sides.

 checkmark 

I'm especially weary of hearing people scream for this to be voted on by the people, and then shriek in horror when they don't get the result they wanted.

For the record, I support gay marriage - but damn, I do NOT support the name-calling that comes from the GLBT community and their supporters when public votes like this don't turn out their way.

Calling people out as homophobes and bigots isn't the way to engender support the next time your cause is voted on.
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ferengi80
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:57 am

Okay, firstly, apologies for the long post here, but its something I think should be said.

There's a lot of religious people out there who believe the Bible word for word. Don't get me wrong, I class myself a Christian, but I believe the Bible is Man's interpretation of the Word of God. It's the way people understood what God was saying and wrote it down. And some of 'em got it a little bit wrong.

Now I am a huge fan of The West Wing, and one of the greatest quotes from the entire series comes from the episode The Midterms, the third episode of the second series. In this, President Bartlet addresses a group which includes a radio talk show host by the name of Jenna Jacobs. The following pretty much sums it up...


JENNA JACOBS
I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President. The Bible does.

BARTLET
Yes, it does. Leviticus.

JENNA JACOBS
18:22

BARTLET
Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions while I had you here.
I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21: 7.
(small chuckles from the guests) She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, and
always clears the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be? While
thinking about that, can I ask another? My Chief of Staff, LeoO McGarry, insists on working
on the Sabbath, Exodus 35:2, clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police? Here's one that's really important,
'cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town. Touching the skin of a dead pig makes
us unclean, Leviticus 11: 7. If they promise to wear gloves, can the Washington Redskins
still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn
my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?

Jenna Jacobs fidgets uncomfortably.

BARTLET
Think about those questions, would you? One last thing, while you may be mistaking this
for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tightass Club, in this building, when the President
stands, nobody sits.


There's a lot in the Bible that today is totally irrelevant. It is quite obvious that the parts on homosexuality are included here.

Our God loves us all for who we are, He made us the person we are.

There is a line in the Neil Diamond song "Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show" that also hits the nail on the head - "Brothers and Sisters - black or white, big or small, gay or straight, rich or poor, God's Children All"

Amen to that.
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Elite
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:58 am

I don't think "the people of Maine should be ashamed of themselves" just because they disagree with your position, you know. To you, it may be clear cut, but right now this is a very controversial and hotly debated topic.
 
NIKV69
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:14 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 12):
I don't think "the people of Maine should be ashamed of themselves" just because they disagree with your position, you know. To you, it may be clear cut, but right now this is a very controversial and hotly debated topic.

Took the words out of my mouth.  checkmark 
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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:22 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 12):
I don't think "the people of Maine should be ashamed of themselves" just because they disagree with your position, you know.

No, they should be ashamed of themselves because they have voted to deprive a certain group of people of the rights that most Maine residents have. I don't care what they think about my position on gay marriage, or gay marriage itself.

-Mir
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Aaron747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:23 pm



Quoting Airstud (Reply 6):
Since the m word seems to set so many people off, why not just change the phraseology, is what my point is.

Because then it's separate but equal - what part of that don't people get? Why does it have to be separate?

Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 9):
1.Marriage isn't recognized at the Federal level for anyone. Generally speaking, the Fed doesn't care about your marital status and it honors civil unions so there's no equal protection issue. They simply won't get involved in a State sanctioned issue. That said, if you have a constitutional amendment, then that would obviously change.

If that's the case then the federal government needs to throw out the 1000+ rights and privileges that are already conferred to married straight couples by a litany of federal statutes, not the least of which is DOMA.

www.gao.gov/new.items/d04353r.pdf

Just as the federal government is bloated and inefficient, it can't even keep track of the discrimination it has already established with regard to gays. Thankfully we have the GAO to at least get some work done.

Quoting Elite (Reply 12):
I don't think "the people of Maine should be ashamed of themselves" just because they disagree with your position, you know.

It has nothing to do with a mere position. It's always upsetting when Americans tramp all over the flag and the memories of thousands of fallen soldiers by standing against their neighbors and individual liberty while upholding values our current ideological enemies hold dear.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:24 pm

I wouldn't worry about these sort of backward, outdated rulings anymore. As previous posters have alluded, this is more reflective of the diminishing importance of marriage as an institution, rather than the significant discrimination.

Over the course of history, it means little. In 10 years, some of these states will catch up with modern societal thinking anyway and overturn these rulings, and concurrently, the importance of marriage will be further diminished so people won't give a darn anyway.

If it's legal status people are looking for, this can be attained in other ways. If it's recognition of partnership/love.....well I don't think marriage plays a huge part in itself
 
ltbewr
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:35 pm

There are many people out there who are very closed minded as to GLBT persons. They believe from their faith or from their cultural upbringing, that to be gay or lesbian is immoral and abnormal. You have some of faith who believe that to oppose same-gender marriage will get them a better chance to get into Heaven and stay out of Hell. I bet all but a tiny number of regular church attendees voted against gay marriage in Maine, probably hyped up further from almost every church, temple or mosque pulpit for weeks to vote against it, perhaps in violation of IRS rules. It also trips over the line between 'Church and State' protections in our Constitution.

A public official marriage is not recognized by most faith groups, yet we recognize faith ministers to officiate for governmental legal status marriage. As I have suggested here and elsewhere, we need to change the laws as to who can legally officiate marriages or DP's to only public government employees or individuals who are licensed by the state and won't discrimate. Some countries (Belgium for one) do not recognize faith ministers to officiate marraiges, one has to have to do it before a government official or file papers. That is the way we should go too.
 
Charles79
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:39 pm

This country never ceases to amaze me. We travel thousands of miles to bring "freedom" and "liberty" to other cultures yet find it totally acceptable to deny the most basic human right of equality to millions of citizens back home.

Hypocrisy is not a strong enough word to describe these cowards.
 
cgnnrw
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:20 pm

53% of Maine residents are complete idiots.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 6):
Then put an initiative on the ballot to change the law so that a domestic partner has the same visitation rights as a spousicus.

Not so easy because I'm sure the same idiots who oppose gay marriage laws would use the same scare tatics to prevent this too...."only a legal husband and wife should be allowed to decide over life and death". Also what about inheritance issues? I'm sure there are plenty of cases where some dipshit family member opposed a testament leaving them nothing but the gay partner everything.

At least with a "covers it all" gay marriage law the necessity to have ballots jpassed each and every time to get "approval" for these issues is rule out.
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:26 pm

This is honestly the first time I've been ashamed in my home state.

Maine's politics tend to lean liberal socially and conservative fiscally...the way things should be. But damn. I don't understand how the Catholic initiative to repeal gay marriage found so many voters who are willing to be flamingly ignorant and intolerant.

I am beyond words now. I thought my vote would be one I could be proud of, showing that Maine was above the ignorance and fear that prevails elsewhere. Well, it turns out that there's a whole lot more ignorance and fear than I knew about.
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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:50 pm



Quoting KPWMSpotter (Reply 20):
I thought my vote would be one I could be proud of, showing that Maine was above the ignorance and fear that prevails elsewhere.

You can still be proud of your own vote, and the votes of the 47% who voted against a ban.

Eventually, enough people will come to their senses and realize that disagreeing with gay marriage is not justification for banning it. If people don't like gay marriage, then they shouldn't get one - seems simple enough, but the desire to impose one's beliefs on others through legal means is too alluring for some. It's a real shame.

-Mir
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Revelation
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:17 pm



Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

According to the Bible, Jesus of Nazareth made it even simpler than that: "Love each other as I have loved you".

Sad so many so-called Christians don't seem to have internalized that simple rule.

Quoting MSNDC9 (Reply 9):
Marriage isn't recognized at the Federal level for anyone.

IRS Form 1040 certainly does ask me my marital status.
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N104UA
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:32 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 5):
Now you know how those of us with brains in California felt almost exactly one year ago

Oh I know I have been pissed off since Colorado passed Amendment 43 in 2006 defining marriage.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 6):
Then put an initiative on the ballot to change the law so that a domestic partner has the same visitation rights as a spousicus. There's piles of polls that show the same people who oppose gay marriage have no objection to so expanding the rights of dp's.

That is horrible that is like saying that girls can go to something but we won't call it school, because only boys can go to school, but we will tell the girls that we are teaching them all the same stuff, while we are giving the boys a better education, what would you think of that

Quoting Ferengi80 (Reply 11):

This makes me think of Deuteronomy 22: 13-21, that says that a marriage shall only be considered valid if the wife is a virgin and if she is not a virgin, her father shall stone her to death at the front door of his home

if we are going to start using the bible as a way to make our national laws why not uses this passage, and also while we are at it ban all pork and shellfish also.

Quoting Ferengi80 (Reply 11):
There's a lot in the Bible that today is totally irrelevant. It is quite obvious that the parts on homosexuality are included here.

Exactly, plus since America is not a christian nation, we should not use the bible at all to make any laws

Quoting Elite (Reply 12):
I don't think "the people of Maine should be ashamed of themselves" just because they disagree with your position, you know. To you, it may be clear cut, but right now this is a very controversial and hotly debated topic.

How would you feel if I took a right from you just because of who you are.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 18):
This country never ceases to amaze me. We travel thousands of miles to bring "freedom" and "liberty" to other cultures yet find it totally acceptable to deny the most basic human right of equality to millions of citizens back home.

Hypocrisy is not a strong enough word to describe these cowards.

That reminds me of that WWII vet that fought on the beaches of Normandy and he says that he fought for all peoples freedom and fully supports marriage equality.
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Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 19):
53% of Maine residents are complete idiots.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
According to the Bible, Jesus of Nazareth made it even simpler than that: "Love each other as I have loved you"

Sad so many so-called Christians don't seem to have internalized that simple rule.

I hate that they only use the hate verses from the bible and not the loving and peaceful ones that Jesus said
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mt99
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:44 pm



Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 19):
53% of Maine residents are complete idiots.

No, 53% of the people who voted are idiots.

How can gay marriage win in an election? I don't think it can.

Who is going to vote to allow gay marriage? 99% Gays, most friends of gay people, some family members of gays,and a few straight people that dont know any gay people but support the cause.

Who is going to vote to block it? 80% of Church goes who are fed lies and "values" every Sunday.

If you do the simple math of population (10% gays vs 60% church goers), there is no way that gay marriage can be approved by a majority.

Its OK. Give it 10 years - by then it will all be a bad dream
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dxing
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:04 pm



Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
You say that we redefine marriage, well just so you know we have redefined marriage many times in the past, 45 years ago 16 states had laws on the books that did not allow interracial marriage, that means that the President of the United States

No matter the color of their skin it does not change the fact that it was one man and one woman. One man and one man, or one woman and one woman redefines the word no matter how you would like to think differently.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 3):
Yeah, only have to break up if you're in the ICU trying to visit your partner and your attorney isn't by your side with a mountain of paperwork.

You can give POA to anyone. Your living will can stipulate who is to make medical decisions on your behalf. Your argument has been debunked many times over by many different people some gay some not.

Quoting San747 (Reply 8):
I thought the whole basis of our country's Constitution was that minorities can't just be deprived of rights over the whims of the majority.

If that were true then Utah would have been admitted as a State without having to outlaw bigamy.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 23):
How would you feel if I took a right from you just because of who you are.

Marriage has always been defined by the States. Some courts have ruled that the laws defining marriage are unconstitutional as they are written, but where have they said that marriage is a "right"?
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Aaron747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:15 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
One man and one man, or one woman and one woman redefines the word no matter how you would like to think differently.

Only if people let it. My marriage or how I feel about it doesn't change any when I see two members of the opposite sex together. Wifey is right here next to me in the next chair and, gee golly, she doesn't seem any different. Damn that gay marriage, what will we do now?!

If people are so offended by that notion, they obviously don't have much confidence in what they believe in. Individual liberty should triumph over any such nonsense.

Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
If that were true then Utah would have been admitted as a State without having to outlaw bigamy.

A whole different animal - allowing bigamy creates a legal mess. How can one contractually tie their life tidings to more than one person? Is the property divided 50-50 or 33-33-33? Who gets more or less? If one person bows out what happens to the other two? If they are financially liable for anything do both remaining partners foot the bill or only one?? They didn't want anything to do those questions and that's why virtually no western country allows it.

Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
Some courts have ruled that the laws defining marriage are unconstitutional as they are written, but where have they said that marriage is a "right"?

It's not so much that as the fact that marriage the contract establishes more rights and privileges. 1138 of them at the federal level, in fact.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:20 pm



Quoting Charles79 (Reply 18):
This country never ceases to amaze me. We travel thousands of miles to bring "freedom" and "liberty" to other cultures yet find it totally acceptable to deny the most basic human right of equality to millions of citizens back home.

Hypocrisy is not a strong enough word to describe these cowards.

 checkmark 

Took the words out of my mouth.

We've declared war on countries ruled by religious fanatics and yet the bible thumpers in our own soil are making important decisions in politics. It's pathetic.
 
Airstud
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:23 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
Marriage has always been defined by the States. Some courts have ruled that the laws defining marriage are unconstitutional as they are written, but where have they said that marriage is a "right"?

Exactly. As contemporary society struggles with this question (in a way that future society may jolly well not), the question people are up against is how to define what marriage is, not a question of who is "allowed" to participate in it. For millenia the de facto definition of marriage has been a union between a man and a woman. (Some bodies go further to say it is for the procreation of children but that falls apart as a legal argument as long as hetero couples aren't prosecuted for being childless.)

Nowadays, gays are rapidly emerging from cultural hiding, and society (or rather those elements of society that haven't encountered much of gayness) is going to have to take time to get used to the idea of same-sex folk being together openly, let alone institutionally.

While society is taking its time to learn that gays aren't going to live closeted and sheltered-like, gays would do well to take some time to understand the non-gay folk's sheltered context and how entrenched their values are because of it.

Give society some time. (They'll take less of it, a lot less of it, if you don't holler "BIGOT!!" at them for understanding marriage to be man+woman. That's not gay-hating, and it's not "deprivation of rights"; it's their idea of the definition of marriage. They're not beating Matthew Shepard or sending package bombs to Atlanta lesbian night clubs.)
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RussianJet
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:48 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 27):
We've declared war on countries ruled by religious fanatics and yet the bible thumpers in our own soil are making important decisions in politics. It's pathetic.

I have a question.

I am not wading in to whether this is right or not because I'm sick of hearing about it. But, why is it that 53% or those who voted, the majority, are dismissed as "bible thumpers" and the like as in the comment above? Do we really suppose that all of those who voted against did so for Christian beliefs, or that all of those who voted for are not Christians? Seems like prejudice to me. I can't see that it is even remotely helpful to one's aims to resort to such polarisation of the debate. Even if you disagree with someone strongly, surely trying to understand why rather than just dishing out the insults is going to be the more constructive strategy?
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
nothing is going to happen to your marriage, your marriage will not become invalid, the world will not explode! If you can name one negative thing that will happen to straight people if gay marriage is made legal I really want to know.

Look at the countries that HAVE legalized civil unions. Have they been thrown into civil war? Have they disbanded? Also, gay marriage is an OPTION. Just because it is legal, does not mean you HAVE to marry you best friend of the same gender. Does not mean you HAVE to marry at all. I think, sometimes, people forget that and think it is all-or-nothing.
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:22 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 12):
To you, it may be clear cut, but right now this is a very controversial and hotly debated topic.

But has it? It's never been debated with a shred of credible evidence. This is not healthcare, or the war in Afghanistan, or anything where there are vastly different consequences depending on the path you choose. There has never been one iota of credible evidence against gay marriage.
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:37 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 29):
But, why is it that 53% or those who voted, the majority, are dismissed as "bible thumpers" and the like as in the comment above? Do we really suppose that all of those who voted against did so for Christian beliefs, or that all of those who voted for are not Christians? Seems like prejudice to me. I can't see that it is even remotely helpful to one's aims to resort to such polarisation of the debate. Even if you disagree with someone strongly, surely trying to understand why rather than just dishing out the insults is going to be the more constructive strategy?

This issue now has been in voter hands now in 31 states. And all of 31 of these states have decided along the same lines.

I think its ridiculous to call all these people bigots, idiots, bible thumpers or any other wishful derogatory term. They are everyday Americans from all walks of life that hold a very basic mainstream societal view.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 28):
For millenia the de facto definition of marriage has been a union between a man and a woman

 checkmark . Frankly this is one of the most basic understandings of life that many people hold. Just like how the sun rises in the morning and sets at night, marriage is solely between a man and a women.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 6):
Then put an initiative on the ballot to change the law so that a domestic partner has the same visitation rights as a spousicus. There's piles of polls that show the same people who oppose gay marriage have no objection to so expanding the rights of dp's.

 checkmark  Absolutely, and I suspect many people would support domestic partner laws that make sense and also would cover other situations including opposite-sex couples that might be living together but have not formalized the relationship via marriage.

At the end of the day, I see it as a joke and a affront to society that a group of folks that live alternate lifestyle basically are demanding that society bless their alternate life styles and convey the title of marriage upon them as some stamp of approval.

The way I see it, the more this issue is pushed, the more society will push back particularly as these proponents manage very well to aliante many potential voters by their loud in your face tactics.
To me if this gets pushed too far, we might reach the point where 2/3 of States could even pass an ultimate Federal constitutional ammendment, ending the discussion for good.
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NIKV69
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:38 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
No, they should be ashamed of themselves because they have voted to deprive a certain group of people of the rights that most Maine residents have.

Here we go again. Marriage is not a right, it is something governed by the state and voted on.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 24):
No, 53% of the people who voted are idiots.

Jesus will you stop with the name calling? People have the right to vote any way they want what are you going to do next get Bill Ayers and bomb them?

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 27):
We've declared war on countries ruled by religious fanatics and yet the bible thumpers in our own soil are making important decisions in politics. It's pathetic.

LOL we are talking about Maine pal, definately not a bunch of Bible thumpers. It isn't the far right that voted this down. Be clear about that. Stop blaming the religious right.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 29):
why is it that 53% or those who voted, the majority, are dismissed as "bible thumpers"

Well because the people that are mad at this vote are so blinded by rage and hatred they have to blame someone and the religious right is the best scapegoat. Even though clearly they are not the ones who voted against it. The people for gay marriage won't accept thinking different from their own and can't accept the fact that this was voted down from people that are not bible thumpers.

[Edited 2009-11-04 09:42:26]
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Revelation
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:40 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 31):
There has never been one iota of credible evidence against gay marriage.

Well, to be fair, it does potentially extend a whole range of benefits like sharing medical insurance that do not currently exist, no? If so one could choose to object purely on the issue of cost, although to me that's quite small minded.
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UAL747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:52 pm

For the 400th time, if I get married to another man, does it diminish your marriage any? Are your kids going to grow up and all of a sudden turn gay? Are they going to become murderers and thieves?

There is all this focus on the word "Marriage" and how GLBT shouldn't have the right to it. But if it's truly just a word, then why won't you let us use it as well? Is there some magical meaning in it that homosexuals shouldn't be privy to? If it is truly "just a word," as you keep telling us, then there's got to be something behind the actions of these people who want to prevent homosexuals from using it. I call it fear and bigotry, and you can get mad at me all you want, but that's what it is plain and simple. Homosexuals affect your lives in NO way and letting homosexuals get married affects your life in NO way. I mean, this argument is SO stupid, yet so debated. It's very illogical.

Financially speaking Gays stimulate the economy more than any other minority group, and also have higher household incomes than any other group in the US.

* The Annual Value of the Gay and Lesbian Market is $515 Billion
* 21% of Gay and Lesbian households have income greater than $100,000 per year. This represents a greater household income versus the average US household income.
* 28% of Gay and Lesbian households have income greater than $50,000 per year. This represents a greater household income versus the average US household income.
* Consists of the most economically advantaged people in the US.
* 88.3% buy products/services of national businesses because of advertising.
* Twice as likely to have household income over $60,000 than general US population.
* Twice as likely to have household income over $250,000 than general US population.
* Twice as likely to have graduated college.
* Over 90% took a domestic trip during the year of research study.
* 60% took a foreign trip in the last 3 years.
* 77% "believe in indulging in themselves".
* 57% "prefer to buy top-of-the line".
* 59% buy themselves whatever they want.


And you know what else is crazy? The churches that fuel this bigotry get tax-exempt status.

UAL

[Edited 2009-11-04 09:56:45]
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RussianJet
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:01 pm



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 35):
There is all this focus on the word "Marriage" and how GLBT shouldn't have the right to it. But if it's truly just a word, then why won't you let us use it as well? Is there some magical meaning in it that homosexuals shouldn't be privy to? If it is truly "just a word," as you keep telling us, then there's got to be something behind the actions of these people who want to prevent homosexuals from using it. I call it fear and bigotry, and you can get mad at me all you want, but that's what it is plain and simple. Homosexuals affect your lives in NO way and letting homosexuals get married affects your life in NO way. I mean, this argument is SO stupid, yet so debated. It's very illogical.

I can understand your upset, but will you listen to what you're saying? YOU this, YOU that. It's all very 'them and us'. Illogical it might seem to you, and that's fine - but again, do you really think it's going to help any to just call people names?
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UAL747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:06 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 36):
I can understand your upset, but will you listen to what you're saying? YOU this, YOU that. It's all very 'them and us'. Illogical it might seem to you, and that's fine - but again, do you really think it's going to help any to just call people names?

Umm, that's what this entire vote was about. "Them and Us." And anti-gay marriage advocates/voters, are the ones who are doing the labeling my friend.

Also, if it's an irrational attitude toward a minority, what else could it be but fear and bigotry? Find me something concrete, rational, and scientific that would support the banning of gay marriage, and I will totally back down.

UAL

[Edited 2009-11-04 10:09:07]
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mt99
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:08 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):

LOL we are talking about Maine pal, definately not a bunch of Bible thumpers. It isn't the far right that voted this down. Be clear about that. Stop blaming the religious right.

Let see some exit polls numbers.
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N104UA
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:16 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
Quoting N104UA (Thread starter):
You say that we redefine marriage, well just so you know we have redefined marriage many times in the past, 45 years ago 16 states had laws on the books that did not allow interracial marriage, that means that the President of the United States

No matter the color of their skin it does not change the fact that it was one man and one woman. One man and one man, or one woman and one woman redefines the word no matter how you would like to think differently.

Yes but in the 1950s people were saying that it is against the bible for interracial marriage, and now almost everyone is fine with interracial marriage

Quoting Airstud (Reply 28):
As contemporary society struggles with this question (in a way that future society may jolly well not), the question people are up against is how to define what marriage is, not a question of who is "allowed" to participate in it. For millenia the de facto definition of marriage has been a union between a man and a woman.

Yes but also for millenia the Man was the person who controlled the marriage, the woman had no choice on who she would marry, do you want to go back to that if we are really wanting marriage never to change.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 29):
I am not wading in to whether this is right or not because I'm sick of hearing about it. But, why is it that 53% or those who voted, the majority, are dismissed as "bible thumpers" and the like as in the comment above? Do we really suppose that all of those who voted against did so for Christian beliefs, or that all of those who voted for are not Christians? Seems like prejudice to me



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 27):
We've declared war on countries ruled by religious fanatics and yet the bible thumpers in our own soil are making important decisions in politics. It's pathetic.

LOL we are talking about Maine pal, definately not a bunch of Bible thumpers. It isn't the far right that voted this down. Be clear about that. Stop blaming the religious right.

But who financed this issue, it was the Mormon Church, Evangelical Christians, and The American Catholic League and Catholic Church, and I bet once we see campaign disclosures come out next month over 70% of the funding did not come from with in Maine

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 30):
Look at the countries that HAVE legalized civil unions. Have they been thrown into civil war? Have they disbanded? Also, gay marriage is an OPTION. Just because it is legal, does not mean you HAVE to marry you best friend of the same gender. Does not mean you HAVE to marry at all. I think, sometimes, people forget that and think it is all-or-nothing.

Exactly, I just say if you don't like gay marriages don't get one.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):

Here we go again. Marriage is not a right, it is something governed by the state and voted on.

Yes it is a right because as soon as you tell someone they can not marry but someone else can you are giving the right to that person who can marry and not giving the same right to that other person

Quoting Revelation (Reply 34):
Well, to be fair, it does potentially extend a whole range of benefits like sharing medical insurance that do not currently exist, no? If so one could choose to object purely on the issue of cost, although to me that's quite small minded.

Well if you are going for that way it makes more sense to get rid of all Marriages (Straight or Gay) because then companies would not have to pay for the spouse's health care and the Government would get more money from taxes because everyone would be filling as a single.
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:18 pm

How about a paradigm shift for the GLBT community.

Instead of showing that you are different, or have a unique niche in society, portray yourselves are regular every day valuable Americans in our communities
So forget wrapping yourselves in multicolor flags, fly an American flag, avoid creating enclaves in cities but instead work to erase the boundaries and show you are as much part of mainstream society as plumber Joe or anyone.

Rightly or wrongly, but to me me the GLBT groups have a terrible PR, or brand placement issue if they were a product.
Instead of alienating people, work to bridge them and I would think over time much of the us versus them mentality would melt away.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:19 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 32):
They are everyday Americans from all walks of life that hold a very basic mainstream societal view.

200 years ago the same "everyday Americans" would have voted to ban interracial marriages, ban women from voting, ban Native Americans from being recognized as citizens and allow slavery to continue. So were they right in their "everyday" beliefs?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 32):
Frankly this is one of the most basic understandings of life that many people hold.

For millenia, most people believed slavery to be a "most basic understanding of life" as they believed some humans to be intrinisically inferior. The Bible even condones slavery. Yet today, few Americans support slavery.


What's ironic is that the people who pushed for this vote (Stand for Marriage Maine) have communist beliefs underlying them. Here's a quote from their website:

"If Question 1 fails and LD 1020 is allowed to take effect, marriage will be redefined to be about any two consenting adults without regard to gender, the focus being only about what the adults want for themselves, and not what is best for society as a whole."

Who goes to their spouse and says, "Honey, I want to marry you because it would be best for society?"
 
dxing
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:31 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
Only if people let it.

Sorry, people are what make up the government and the majority of the people, even black people, don't see it that way. Interracial and same sex are seen as completely different aspects.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
A whole different animal -

So marriage is a "basic" right until 3 people are involved?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
It's not so much that as the fact that marriage the contract establishes more rights and privileges.

Then hetrosexual people who remain single are just as equally denied those rights and priviliges as well no?

Quoting N104UA (Reply 39):
Yes but in the 1950s people were saying that it is against the bible for interracial marriage, and now almost everyone is fine with interracial marriage

One aspect, certainly not the entire view. No way all the people that voted for this measure did so out of religious fervor. Yet that is all I see as an argument here. Sooner or later the gay community will have to recognize that far more than just deeply religious people don't agree with their stance.
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NIKV69
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:32 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 38):
Let see some exit polls numbers.

Exit polls have never been reliable and are never accurate and furthermore becoming a tool for more left wing propaganda.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 39):
But who financed this issue, it was the Mormon Church, Evangelical Christians, and The American Catholic League and Catholic Church, and I bet once we see campaign disclosures come out next month over 70% of the funding did not come from with in Maine

Who cares? Had nothing to do with who went into the booth and flicked the switch.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 39):
Yes it is a right because as soon as you tell someone they can not marry but someone else can you are giving the right to that person who can marry and not giving the same right to that other person

You serious?  confused 
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mt99
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:36 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 43):
Exit polls have never been reliable and are never accurate and furthermore becoming a tool for more left wing propaganda.

Ahh,. ok.. so you have nothing back up your claim. Great.
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:38 pm



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
So were they right in their "everyday" beliefs?

Yes absolutely in the context of their times.

What might happen in 10, 100 or 1000 years to mankind and his understanding and beliefs surrounding society is hard to say for any of us. For all we know marriage might be frowned upon totally, or there might even be 3-person or even communal marriages. Who knows.

But people today vote for what they believe today, for which the mainstream thinking is the opposition of same-sex marriage.
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UAL747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:39 pm

Guys, we could go about debating everything and defer the argument to a race debate, majority rules debate, etc., but can anyone honestly provide me with concrete, coherent, scientific and statistical data that supports banning gay marriage? I think THAT is the real question people against it need to ask themselves. I know some of you here are against it, so if you could please answer that question. I'd like to know how you are rationalizing your opinion.

UAL
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:04 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
One man and one man, or one woman and one woman redefines the word no matter how you would like to think differently.

Only if people let it. My marriage or how I feel about it doesn't change any when I see two members of the opposite sex together.

But to those who are deeply religious about the rite of marriage - not the state-codified aspect of it - it DOES change how they feel. Read on...

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 30):
Look at the countries that HAVE legalized civil unions. Have they been thrown into civil war? Have they disbanded? Also, gay marriage is an OPTION. Just because it is legal, does not mean you HAVE to marry you best friend of the same gender.

And that's why legalized civil unions with the same rights as marriage will likely be successful if put to a vote. While it may seem silly, yes - omitting the word "marriage" will likely make all the difference. Read on...

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 35):
There is all this focus on the word "Marriage" and how GLBT shouldn't have the right to it

While I fully support gay marriage, let me explain WHY those who oppose it do:

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 35):
But if it's truly just a word, then why won't you let us use it as well?

Because to those who don't support gay marriage, it's that the word "marriage" isn't just a word - it's a religious rite that to them, stands for the best in all they believe from a religious standpoint.


Quoting UAL747 (Reply 35):
Is there some magical meaning in it that homosexuals shouldn't be privy to?

Yes, as their religious beliefs typically compel them to proclaim homosexuality as immoral.

So to these people - again, rightly or wrongly - the thought of homosexuals sharing in their religious rite DOES, to them, diminish what they believe is the sanctity of their own marriage.

That's why "gay marriage" is probably likely to continue to fail wherever it's put to a public vote. In my mind, the GLBT community would be better served to abandon the "marriage" word entirely and instead work to see civil unions elevated to the same legal status as marriage in all states.

And, as LAXIntl also said, not trying so hard to establish their own identity as a separate community within society, as all this does is create a de-facto "us vs. them" mentality on both sides.
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:06 pm



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 46):
but can anyone honestly provide me with concrete, coherent, scientific and statistical data that supports banning gay marriage?

OK I'll bite;

I think you need to remember people don't vote based on scientific or statistical data, and neither are laws primarily designed around them.

For your answer, I believe we need to delve into history instead, and recognize that the church teachings and dogma has served as the core foundation shaping of modern societies, their laws and common understandings.
If you want a little science you can throw in the fact that the human anatomy was designed for X+Y compatibility, not Y+Y or X+X. which helps butress many church teaching.
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NIKV69
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:12 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 44):
Ahh,. ok.. so you have nothing back up your claim. Great.

I have plenty, Maine is not a far right state. What is an exit poll going to tell you? Your going to ask someone leaving a voting booth if they thump bibles? Everyone who voted this down is not a far right religious nut. As much as you want them to be.
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