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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:27 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 139):
By defacto we would have to accept it. So would churches and such. It becomes the law of the land.

Accept it as legal, yes. But that doesn't mean you have to like it, nor does it mean that you have to recognize the marriages. As far as churches go, they shouldn't be compelled to perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples if they don't want to. But if they do want to, then they should be able to.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 139):
But to be legal it needs society input, and like it or not we legislate very much based on our morals and assumptions of right and wrong.

We also have a Constitution to guide us in what laws we can pass. Can you find another example of a law that restricts two consenting adults from doing something that has no direct impact on any other member of society? I can't, and that says a lot about the limits of the imposition of morals on others.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 139):
it does not help as they have politicians like SF mayor Gavin Newsom here in CA making public statements like "like it or not" as trying to shove something down society.

Ironic you should say that when your own arguments in this thread contained a "like it or not" statement to support shoving something down society.

-Mir
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Airstud
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:31 am



Quoting San747 (Reply 149):
we all know how people joke around about marriage being a living hell, but for two mature individuals, marriage can be a very happy and fulfilling venture. My parents, after their divorce (which I might add came after over 11 years of marriage), have been happily remarried for 15 and 12 years respectively, with no signs of any dwindling feelings or love for each other.

That's fantastic, and I wish them continued happiness.

I was merely trying to inject a bit of levity into a thread that seemed to need it.
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san747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:43 am



Quoting Airstud (Reply 151):

I was merely trying to inject a bit of levity into a thread that seemed to need it.

Oh. Sorry. In that case, go for it  Smile
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vikkyvik
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:05 am



Quoting AM744 (Reply 145):
A marriage could potentially involve children. I'm no doctor nor psychologist, but I can empirically assert that men and women tend to think, feel, talk and express their feelings and emotions differently. So, wouldn't a same sex union give their children an incomplete picture of first hand human behaviour? Not better nor worse, just different. I even concede that it could actually enrichen society with new educational models and points of view from an early formative stage (by doing away with sexist stereotypes of what a man or a woman is supposed to be or what activities he or she is supposed to engage in) but, couldn't that be a cause of concern for some segments of society? In any case, it doesn't sound as something to be taken lightly.

A marriage can just as easily NOT involve children.

And more importantly, there are plenty of unmarried people who have children. If we're going to talk about being raised by two dads or two moms, shouldn't we deal with that too?

Even a heterosexual couple can present an incomplete picture of human behavior to their child. At a certain point, you have to let the parents have responsibility for that. We can't legislate everything that has to be presented to a child by their parents.
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n229nw
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:10 am



Quoting AM744 (Reply 145):
I have one honest question though. A marriage could potentially involve children. I'm no doctor nor psychologist, but I can empirically assert that men and women tend to think, feel, talk and express their feelings and emotions differently. So, wouldn't a same sex union give their children an incomplete picture of first hand human behaviour? Not better nor worse, just different.

Well every single parent family already does this. Furthermore, gay couple that want children often adopt, and most of the kids they adopt would otherwise have NO family. So it's not like choosing between a kid having a mom and dad and a kid having two dads. It's more like choosing between a kid growing up unloved in an orphanage or in 20 different foster homes (in the US some of those being abusive), or have a stable, loving family, that just happens to be two moms/dads...
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:14 am



Quoting Jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 141):
Oh, I understand. You are upset at them for acting like they are different after you tell them that they are different and undeserving of the same rights as you. Got it .

They are indeed free to advertise gay cruises if they wish, however in my professional and business experience, I would not segmentise and market to the GLBT separately, and matter of fact have openly opposed such ideas.

I don't believe the benefits off any potential added revenue offsets the corresponding loss, and potential PR headaches associtated with targeting GLBT. For a good example, look at AA which 5-6 years ago launched a portal(AA rainbow), and the backlash and direct business loss from various civic, and church groups (and assume by individuals also). There was even a national petition going around that AA was pandering too much to GLBTs.
What might have been seen as a trendy move by some AA sales rep in LA, Miami or NY cost the corporation in other areas. Today the GLBT portal while still alive does not even have a link off the main aa.com website and AA plays down its existence now with very limited(and carefull) marketing.

Quoting San747 (Reply 142):
As far as I know in this country, the only qualification for marriage is age, and obviously that depends on what state you're in. Otherwise, unlike a driver's license (just using your example), any person can get married to any other person. One can be denied a driver's license if they're disabled, blind, deaf, addicted to drugs, etc. Any of those people I just named can get married in a heartbeat however.

What does the number of requirements in one license versus another have to do with its legitimacy?
Marriage yes has one key fundamental requirement - cannot be same sex.
You can add in restriction on age, cousins, blood test, fees etc based on jurisdiction if you wish.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 144):
I'm sorry, but that's bulldroppings. Can a Catholic Church refuse to marry two Hindus? Yes. And yet Hindus are allowed to marry. The same would be true of gays.



Quoting Mir (Reply 150):
As far as churches go, they shouldn't be compelled to perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples if they don't want to. But if they do want to, then they should be able to.

Yes it would be great if churches could opt out, but for example here in California our Attorney General admitted in his opinions on Prop-8, that it could be a slippery slope for churches that openly deny marriage services based on same-sex.

You and I both know, sooner of later some church or another will end up in court for refusing to marry someone. So while the principle of freedom of religion is strong in the US, how it may fare and the collateral damage from being opposed to other existing law could be yet another costly can of worms by allowing same-sex marriage.

Along with churches, I also believe private schools should have the right to also continue teaching what they feel is moral or immorality including statements on same-sex marriage.

Quoting Mir (Reply 150):
We also have a Constitution to guide us in what laws we can pass.

Indeed, and its also a living document that can be adjusted by the people. I suppose maybe one day if pushed enough 2/3 states approve formal amendment barring same-sex marriage.

But yes I agree ultimately this needs to end up in the Supreme Court. The stakes would be high however, and any loss by the same-sex marriage camp could be fatal for decades to come which is why I believe many have prefered to fight things on local level and not directly on Federal charges.

Quoting Mir (Reply 150):
Ironic you should say that when your own arguments in this thread contained a "like it or not" statement to support shoving something down society.

You better re-read my comments. Both times I used "like it or not" was about same-sex marriage viewpoint being shoved down onto greater society by what is frankly a special interest group.
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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:15 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 155):
You and I both know, sooner of later some church or another will end up in court for refusing to marry someone.

Perhaps. And in that case the church should win the argument. Plain and simple.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 155):
Indeed, and its also a living document that can be adjusted by the people. I suppose maybe one day if pushed enough 2/3 states approve formal amendment barring same-sex marriage.

Keep dreaming, because when a president firmly in the corner of the religious right and a GOP-controlled Congress waiting on him hand and foot can't get that ball rolling, you can pretty much rule it out as a viable option.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 155):
Both times I used "like it or not" was about same-sex marriage viewpoint being shoved down onto greater society by what is frankly a special interest group.

The Maine vote was 53-47. You're seriously going to call 47% of the people of a state a "special interest group"?

-Mir
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JRDC930
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:21 am

I agree with Maine, and with California. To avoid the inevitable flame war, that is all i have to say. I know on Anet i will be in the minority who feels this way, so im not saying anything more.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:56 am



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 157):
I agree with Maine, and with California. To avoid the inevitable flame war, that is all i have to say. I know on Anet i will be in the minority who feels this way, so im not saying anything more.

If you're not going to say why you feel that way, why bother coming here at all? That goes for anyone.
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:17 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 156):
Keep dreaming, because when a president firmly in the corner of the religious right and a GOP-controlled Congress waiting on him hand and foot can't get that ball rolling, you can pretty much rule it out as a viable option.

Maybe, maybe not. But as the same-sex marriage camp has pushed their agenda, much of America has woken up and now 31 states quite rapidly have passed various laws or constitutional amendments.
So the more oneside pushes and insist on redefining marriage, the other side rightfully stands up and defends what they perceive is right and moral.

So what might happen in 5, 10 or 20 years with this issue is hard to say for any of us, but what might seem improbable today might be very desirous tomorrow for State Legislatures and Congress.

Quoting Mir (Reply 156):
The Maine vote was 53-47. You're seriously going to call 47% of the people of a state a "special interest group"?

The special interest group is the 5% someone else proffered as the gay population. The rest are along for the vote.

Just like gun rights. The special interest NRA does not make up 60% of the population, but instead only about 4mil members and just under 30% of Americans own guns but overall they tend to receive over 60% voter support on gun issues. People have to vote one way or the other.
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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:34 am



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 158):
If you're not going to say why you feel that way, why bother coming here at all? That goes for anyone.

 checkmark  This is generally the sign that people don't have rational reasons for their positions.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 159):
The special interest group is the 5% someone else proffered as the gay population. The rest are along for the vote.

And none of the 53% were just "along for the vote", right?  Yeah sure

It's not just the gay population who is in support of gay marriage, mind you. I'm not gay myself, but you can bet that if my state had a measure on the ballot regarding gay marriage, I would not just be "along for the vote". And I'm not alone.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 159):
People have to vote one way or the other.

People don't have to vote on specific issues. Don't care about a measure on the ballot? Don't vote on it.

-Mir
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:51 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 160):
And none of the 53% were just "along for the vote", right?

It's not just the gay population who is in support of gay marriage, mind you. I'm not gay myself, but you can bet that if my state had a measure on the ballot regarding gay marriage, I would not just be "along for the vote". And I'm not alone.

Sure some of the 53%, just went along one side or the other. I'm sure there was a core group of die-hards on both sides, with the vast majority of voters in the middle and were swayed one way or the other.

And yes to get things on ballots its rather simple thing by a special interest groups. All its takes in most places is a percentage of voter signatures.
I mean here in California we even had a statewide vote driven by animal activist about confinement of farm animals.

So yes a small group of pro or anti same-sex activist, or whatever topic you can think of can bring measures infront of huge audiances that might not have any specific direct interest about the topic for a general vote.

Quoting Mir (Reply 160):
People don't have to vote on specific issues. Don't care about a measure on the ballot? Don't vote on it.

Sure you don't have to. But generally people do end up voting at the end even if they dont have a huge interest eitherway.

For instance here in Los Angeles County, if one leaves a blank on your ballot, the scanner spits it back out and you either have to confirm you yes intended to leave something blank, or go back an finish voting.

[Edited 2009-11-05 20:53:39 by laxintl]
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Airstud
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:19 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 156):
Keep dreaming, because when a president firmly in the corner of the religious right and a GOP-controlled Congress waiting on him hand and foot can't get that ball rolling, you can pretty much rule it out as a viable option.

Well actually a Constitutional amendment never goes to the President. Once it's passed by 2/3 of each house of Congress; it goes to the State legislatures (and, as you know, ¾ of the States need to ratify it).

The mere fact that Congress was controlled by the GOP, by a less-than-two-thirds majority, and that the procedurally irrelevant President was anti-gay-marriage, doesn't prove the amendment to be unviable; especially with the State legislatures left out of your equation.

That said, I don't think such an amendment ever would pass and I don't think it's a good idea either. It's one of the biggest hypocrisies from the Republican party: the cry for States' rights and less Federal intervention, and a push to take away from the States the rights to legalize gay marriage if they want to.

Silliness it is.
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DocLightning
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:45 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 155):


You and I both know, sooner of later some church or another will end up in court for refusing to marry someone.

And we know that the church will win. Because nobody can force a church to marry someone the church doesn't want to marry.
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N104UA
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:12 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 139):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 134):
If gay marriage is legal, nobody is forcing YOU to accept it. You can reject it. It has no impact on your life or anything that you do.

By defacto we would have to accept it. So would churches and such. It becomes the law of the land.

In essance a small special interest group tells the rest of society how its must view, act and condone the actions of that group.

Read the Establishment clause of the constitution, and nothing will be forced on your church

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 139):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 136):
And if that barrier of misunderstaning is broken, I think more citizens in this country would be okay with the concept of gay marriage, and I say this because as I've said, I'm one of the ones who has come around on gay marriage for pushing through that barrier.

Maybe, and that change needs to come from within the GLBT community. Seeing billboard adds for Gay Cruises, colored flag banners, etc works to make the community stand out in negative light in my view. Almost elitist in a way I suppose.

Yes because I did not hear a radio ad today telling me to accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, and I do not get flyers in the mail from a local church with quotes like "Got Jesus," "Missing something in your life," I just see this as good marketing in California there are a lot of Gays so it makes good marketing sense to post them there, just like I live in a big christian area so I see it as the free market working

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 155):
Quoting Mir (Reply 150):
As far as churches go, they shouldn't be compelled to perform marriage ceremonies for gay couples if they don't want to. But if they do want to, then they should be able to.

Yes it would be great if churches could opt out, but for example here in California our Attorney General admitted in his opinions on Prop-8, that it could be a slippery slope for churches that openly deny marriage services based on same-sex.

You and I both know, sooner of later some church or another will end up in court for refusing to marry someone. So while the principle of freedom of religion is strong in the US, how it may fare and the collateral damage from being opposed to other existing law could be yet another costly can of worms by allowing same-sex marriage.

Along with churches, I also believe private schools should have the right to also continue teaching what they feel is moral or immorality including statements on same-sex marriage.

Again read the establishment clause, and private schools will not be required to teach how gay sex happens just like many schools don't say anything about sex, so I see it as them keeping it business as usual.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 155):

But yes I agree ultimately this needs to end up in the Supreme Court. The stakes would be high however, and any loss by the same-sex marriage camp could be fatal for decades to come which is why I believe many have prefered to fight things on local level and not directly on Federal charges.

I agree this does need to end up in the Supreme Court because if they read the law and constitution, they will come up with the same decision as state courts have, because with out a amendment to the constitution defining marriage, the rest of the laws on the books against denying someone something because of who they are.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 159):
Maybe, maybe not. But as the same-sex marriage camp has pushed their agenda, much of America has woken up and now 31 states quite rapidly have passed various laws or constitutional amendments.
So the more oneside pushes and insist on redefining marriage, the other side rightfully stands up and defends what they perceive is right and moral.

Again how can the majority tell the minority what can happen, and remember we have redefined marriage before so it will happen again
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RussianJet
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:19 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 137):
Among those things falls the issue of civil rights. Women did not gain their rights through the popular vote. Nor did Blacks. Nor did people under 21. In fact, no civil right has ever been granted to a group by popular vote. Ever. Not once. And marriage is, accordiing to Loving v. Virginia, a "fundamental right."

I take your point, but on other matters (and I hear what you say about civil rights) that is effectively what happens.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 137):
Or if someone floated a proposal right after 9/11 to put all Arabs, Muslims, and anyone who looked like they might be of Mid-Eastern descent into concentration camps

 rotfl  Wait, albeit without a vote, I thought that happened anyway??
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:45 am

Those people who discriminate based on race, sex, sex orientation, religion, nationality, eugenic, intellectual level, physical measurement, education or any other basal categorization of human existence which we separate ourselves into...they are far beneath, far far beneath. Just because these people are in the majority does not make them right. And they are bigots, they are full of discrimination. Perhaps I am guilty of calling a spade a spade. It confused me when bigots, racists, homophobes, and discriminators do not like to be called exactly that. They are "shadow" or "in the closet" biggots and discriminators. I don't care about their self-proported religious/spiritual/ethical beliefs. Your belief is just that. You never have the human capacity to project that onto someone else. Just because the inane legislature of a country's legal or political system gives you that power does not make it right nor just in terms of the rights of any human.

That said, I don't really have time for any of these "thousand-year-old" religions with outdated views. Although I recognize the right for any person to celebrate their belief in their home or place of worship. But especially some of the cult-like sects of these religions, full of discrimination and hate for "outsiders and miscreants". They create villains, evil, and "sinners" out of everyday people just trying to go about their lives. This villain-creating distracts from real issues that affect us all as humanity, not as white, or black, or Hispanic, or gay, or transgender, or queeny-acting-crossdressing-teenage-boy, or Argentinian, or Swiss, or Nigerian, or Nepanlese, or Eritrean, or Luxemburger. But such people are among us today. And we have do deal with pleasing the pedestrian proletariat, with their voting "power"...those who are ruled.
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san747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:13 am



Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 166):
You never have the human capacity to project that onto someone else. Just because the inane legislature of a country's legal or political system gives you that power does not make it right nor just in terms of the rights of any human.

Luckily, the American legal/political system is designed to prevent exactly what you described... which is why I'm still flabbergasted about why this issue is being put up to a popular vote in various states. This is not an issue the people have the right to decide.
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Aaron747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:23 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 130):
To me, I could really care less what one does in their home

Given your strong stance on the issue, I have deep doubts about that. Ostensibly what a gay person does in their home is no different from what you or I do, except that you think it's abnormal, unnatural or something to that effect thus legally recognizing their love should remain illegal. It's a preposterous leap of logic.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 130):
Thats one of the big issues here -- The mainstream is being forced to accept the alternate lifestyle and actions(same sex marriage in this case) as being normal and acceptable behavior by codifying it and stamping approval with a marriage license.

It's not an alternative lifestyle simply because you deem it as such. It's a daily living breathing reality for LGBT individuals the world over. But sorry, I should know better than to bring simple truths into this kind of discussion.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 139):
But to be legal it needs society input, and like it or not we legislate very much based on our morals and assumptions of right and wrong.

Society's input is not always fair or correct...miscegenation laws for starters.
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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:37 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 161):
Sure some of the 53%, just went along one side or the other. I'm sure there was a core group of die-hards on both sides, with the vast majority of voters in the middle and were swayed one way or the other.

In other words, you can't prove this:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 155):
Both times I used "like it or not" was about same-sex marriage viewpoint being shoved down onto greater society by what is frankly a special interest group.

because we have no idea what percentage of either side was a special interest group.

-Mir
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Blackprojects
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:03 pm

So your States are Braking the Letter or the United States 1st Law.

__________________________________________________________

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

__________________________________________________________

Yet your States elected Officials are With holding the Rights enshrined in Americas Declaration of Independence.

So basically they are Braking the United States founding fathers wishes by Denying gay people the happiness of a life together and the Liberty to be them selves So they end up with a Stigma and no real life at all!

Very Strange.
 
RussianJet
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:38 pm



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 170):
So your States are Braking the Letter or the United States 1st Law.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Yet your States elected Officials are With holding the Rights enshrined in Americas Declaration of Independence.

So basically they are Braking the United States founding fathers wishes by Denying gay people the happiness of a life together and the Liberty to be them selves So they end up with a Stigma and no real life at all!

Who said gay people were to be denied a life together? A life together is certainly permitted. No real life at all? That's a little dramatic, and the gay people I know in the UK would certainly not agree that they aren't allowed a 'real life' just because their union is not called marriage. To say that anyone is BREAKING anything of the sort as you describe is quite a stretch.
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Blackprojects
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:54 pm

Well if the Above 1st Law was followed exactly the way it is above Discrimination against Gays would be a NO-NO as it would brake the Law .

They are being denied the Same rights that Hetro people have by Political people who do not like gays and are out to make a name for them selves.
 
AM744
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:28 pm



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 153):
A marriage can just as easily NOT involve children.

And more importantly, there are plenty of unmarried people who have children. If we're going to talk about being raised by two dads or two moms, shouldn't we deal with that too?

Even a heterosexual couple can present an incomplete picture of human behavior to their child. At a certain point, you have to let the parents have responsibility for that. We can't legislate everything that has to be presented to a child by their parents.



Quoting N229NW (Reply 154):
Well every single parent family already does this.

I gave it some thought yesterday and arrived to the exact same conclusion. There are lots of succesful single dad or mom families. So I fail to see any other argument against gay marriage.
 
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:24 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 167):
Luckily, the American legal/political system is designed to prevent exactly what you described... which is why I'm still flabbergasted about why this issue is being put up to a popular vote in various states. This is not an issue the people have the right to decide.

oh I know

and to all of those Christians here that still think Gay Marriage is wrong
""Love is Patient and Kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love never fails."
That is from you Bible it is 1 Corinthians 13 and LOVE NEVER FAILS, love will always win in the end hate will die out, and just think of what Jesus would say about you being so mean to a group of people
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vikkyvik
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:03 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 161):
For instance here in Los Angeles County, if one leaves a blank on your ballot, the scanner spits it back out and you either have to confirm you yes intended to leave something blank, or go back an finish voting.

Not saying you're intentionally misleading, but that certainly has never happened to me. And I've certainly left blanks on my ballots.
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LAXintl
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 168):
Given your strong stance on the issue, I have deep doubts about that.

You dont know me and I dont expect you to. But I have a very diverse social circle. Might even surprise you to know I've even been a big brother and tutored a black gay adolesence for several years.

But regardless my view of same-sex marriage is what it is.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 168):
It's not an alternative lifestyle

Sure its an alternative lifestyle. Being gay is not the normal mainstream lifestyle for general society.
As someone else posted gay population represents what maybe 5% of the total?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 168):
Society's input is not always fair or correct...miscegenation laws for starters.

Society might be right or wrong on many things, but it is us humans that afterall have to make laws.
And rightly and wrongly, things like morality and our conviction guide mankind as he develops and inerprets these laws.

Quoting Mir (Reply 169):
In other words, you can't prove this:



Quoting Mir (Reply 169):
because we have no idea what percentage of either side was a special interest group.

And neither do you unless if you wish to go conduct a field poll.

In the California farm animals measure I mentioned earlier, I seriously doubt most folks cared or even had a clue either way, but when it came down to voting some 12.9mil people placed a vote one way or the other.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 175):
Not saying you're intentionally misleading, but that certainly has never happened to me. And I've certainly left blanks on my ballots.

Well for for the last two elections, at my polling station the card ballots were scanned by a big blue machine machine manned by a clerk that would spit it back out with a warning if a bubble was selected somewhere.
It actually happened to the woman in front me me whom promptly went back and completed voting.
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sbworcs
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:11 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 176):
morality

You say we do not know you yet state that it is a moral issue - why should my sexualtiy and choice of partner be a moral issue for you?
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:18 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 177):
You say we do not know you yet state that it is a moral issue - why should my sexualtiy and choice of partner be a moral issue for you?

You are free to partner up with who you desire.

The topic of this thread is about same-sex marriage, not if can people have relations.
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JRDC930
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:20 pm



Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 158):
If you're not going to say why you feel that way, why bother coming here at all? That goes for anyone.

I already told you why im not elaborating; Im in the minority that agrees with the people of Maine, and i dont feel like dealing with a slew of attacks on my personal beliefs. I just wanted to show that not every one on Anet disagrees with the people of Maine. I really dont have to defend my feelings to anyone either.
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sbworcs
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:27 pm



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 178):
You are free to partner up with who you desire.

The topic of this thread is about same-sex marriage, not if can people have relations.

OK thanks I can have a relationship - why then can't I legally marry the partner of my choice?
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:41 pm



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 180):
why then can't I legally marry the partner of my choice?

Because he believes in a government that polices sexual mores and limits individual liberty. banghead 
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:22 am



Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 180):
OK thanks I can have a relationship - why then can't I legally marry the partner of my choice?

As has been posted here many times, but here we go again.

The most basic fundamental premise (and hence legal requirement) of marriage is that it involves opposite sex partners.

If you meet this qualification, and/or any others that might be in place in your local jurisdiction feel free to apply for a marriage license.
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:53 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 182):

The most basic fundamental premise (and hence legal requirement) of marriage is that it involves opposite sex partners.

You just made quite a claim. Now, prove it.

Oh, and here's a puzzler for you: are you talking about sex or gender? Consider Jamie Lee Curtis. Her sex is male because she was born with testes and has an XY karyotype. But her gender expression and identity are clearly female.

So should she be unable to marry a man? It fits every objection so far: wouldn't be for reproduction, male-male, no benefit to society, etc.
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:14 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 183):
You just made quite a claim. Now, prove it.

Oh, and here's a puzzler for you: are you talking about sex or gender? Consider Jamie Lee Curtis. Her sex is male because she was born with testes and has an XY karyotype. But her gender expression and identity are clearly female.

So should she be unable to marry a man? It fits every objection so far: wouldn't be for reproduction, male-male, no benefit to society, etc.

Listen Doc, you can try to twist words, but you very well understand what I mean.
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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:20 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 184):
Listen Doc, you can try to twist words, but you very well understand what I mean.

We really don't.

You keep throwing this "the fundamental principle of marriage is that it is between a man and a woman" line out there. All we're asking you to do is to back that statement up. All you need to do is fill in the blank:

"The fundamental principle of marriage is that it is between a man and a woman, because _______."

-Mir
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Airstud
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:36 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 183):
Consider Jamie Lee Curtis. Her sex is male because she was born with testes and has an XY karyotype. But her gender expression and identity are clearly female.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/jamieleecurtis/a/jamieleecurtis.htm
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:15 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 182):
As has been posted here many times, but here we go again.

As has been asked many times and unanswered, why are you against individual liberty with respect to choice of adult consensual marriage partners and why do you, by extension, stand for government intervention in the conduct of individual private lives?

It's mind boggling. If it doesn't affect you personally, why do you want your government involved?? This is the same specious reasoning used by city planning offices who claim yellow homes reduce property values and should be barred from the street in question. Who are they to define what color is or isn't attractive on a home they don't own?
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 185):
because _______."

Take a pick, but for me these do well to start with.

-its biblical concept
-its excepted societal norm for centuries
-its correct
-its the law
-its obvious
-its legitimate
-God created a partner for Adam --Eve - not another Adam
-physiological design of our bodies. If it was meant for man-man to be one then there would have a means to allow reproduction.
-its moral

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 187):
. Who are they to define what color is or isn't attractive on a home they don't own?

Societies need rules. From maybe the trivial, to serious life and safety regulations.

And its our fellow venerable mankind that must conceive, and enforce these regulations for better or worse.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:23 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its biblical concept

which not everyone shares...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its excepted societal norm for centuries

and it is well known Greece has had homosexuals since the dawn of their civilization and it was a widely accepted lifestyle

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its correct

says who?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its the law

not everywhere

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its obvious

to the narrowminded types

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its legitimate

see above

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-God created a partner for Adam --Eve - not another Adam

What if you're not Christian? Or better yet, What if you're atheist?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-physiological design of our bodies. If it was meant for man-man to be one then there would have a means to allow reproduction.

This is your only somewhat valid point.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its moral

once again, according to who?
 
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Thems

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:36 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
Take a pick, but for me these do well to start with.

All of those (save for "it's the law", because that would be using the existence of the law to justify the existence of the law - doesn't work that way) are perfectly reasons to oppose gay marriage. But none of them have any constitutional grounding, and that's what matters when you're talking about whether it is acceptable to deny marriage to any one specific set of people.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its biblical concept

The United States does not make laws based purely on biblical concept.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its excepted societal norm for centuries

Slavery was the accepted societal norm for centuries, too. You'd be very hard pressed to find a court these days who would accept that argument as to why it should be legal.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its correct

A matter of opinion.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its the law

Already talked about this one.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its obvious

Again, a matter of opinion.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its legitimate

According to what?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-God created a partner for Adam --Eve - not another Adam

Again, the US doesn't make laws based purely on religious stories.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-physiological design of our bodies. If it was meant for man-man to be one then there would have a means to allow reproduction.

For this argument to have some merit, the point of marriage would have to be defined as having children. Yet heterosexual couples are under no legal obligation to have children, so having children is clearly not the point of marriage in the eyes of the law. With that out of the picture, the physiology argument falls apart.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
-its moral

Yet again, a matter of opinion.

-------------------------------------

So....you're going to have to do better than that. I'll ask again: using existing legal principles, can you justify denying marriage to gays?

-Mir
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Aaron747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:46 am

Specious reasoning at best, self-proclaimed superiority of ideas and opinion at worst.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
God created a partner for Adam --Eve - not another Adam

There are hundreds of faiths on this planet that don't involve Adam and Eve. There are others who have no faith at all. They should not be forced to accept your views before the law under US constitutional protections.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
physiological design of our bodies.

Pure nonsense. Same-sex interactions have no issue obviously with manipulating the physiological sexual functions of the human animal. Technically we weren't designed to be having anal intercourse either, but that doesn't stop anyone on the straight side, my current life partner and several ex girlfriends included.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
its obvious

No more obvious than the fact it's a matter of opinion.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 188):
its excepted societal norm for centuries

It's a societal norm for holy men in New Guinea to extract and drink the semen of young boys as well...and has been for centuries. It seems they have a different view, no?
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:49 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 190):
So....you're going to have to do better than that. I'll ask again: using existing legal principles, can you justify denying marriage to gays?

You asked and I provided some examples.

You are free to ignore or refute them but they are my beliefs and ones I feel are very valid.

I have and will continue to stand behind them (as I have in this fun lengthy discussion), and have a very clear conscience.
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JRDC930
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:51 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 192):
You asked and I provided some examples.

Dont waste your time with them. Morality is relative to them, so your not gonna get any where on this issue.
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Mir
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:17 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 192):
You asked and I provided some examples.

And I explained why those examples don't support what you're advocating.

Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 193):
Morality is relative to them

Morality is a very relative thing, to everyone. That's why you can't arbitrarily impose it on others.

-Mir
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DocLightning
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:07 am



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 184):

Listen Doc, you can try to twist words, but you very well understand what I mean.

No. I don't understand what you mean. I also don't understand why you CARE what I want to call my relationship with the man I love.
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JRDC930
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:14 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 194):
Morality is a very relative thing, to everyone. That's why you can't arbitrarily impose it on others.

So murder is ok in certain circumstances? good to know. Thats what moral relativeism means right? Ther is nothing good or wrong right? Im sorry but i disagree with that.
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RussianJet
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:00 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 195):
No. I don't understand what you mean. I also don't understand why you CARE what I want to call my relationship with the man I love.

Can that question not be inverted? Why do you care what the relationship is called so much? Surely it's two sides of the same coin. Either it's an important issue or it's not. Clearly you think it is, so why should he not?
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:12 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 197):
Why do you care what the relationship is called so much?

Would you be willing to give up straight marriage and call it a partnership? If so, then I wouldn't care. As long as I get the same opportunities as everyone else.
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Aaron747
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RE: The People Of Maine Should Be Ashamed Of Themselve

Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:59 am



Quoting JRDC930 (Reply 196):
So murder is ok in certain circumstances? good to know. Thats what moral relativeism means right? Ther is nothing good or wrong right? Im sorry but i disagree with that.

Ridiculous straw man reasoning. There is absolutely no connection between run of the mill consensual sexual relations and murder. They are on a different moral plane altogether and linking them in any way shape or form is intellectual bankruptcy in its purest form.

Sexual morality is highly relative given the incredible variety in sexual practices and norms throughout the world - because some of them don't conform to your view of what's correct doesn't make them any less normal for those that practice them. Absent of animals or children there are very few lines to draw in many cultures of the world.
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