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Aaron747
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75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:17 pm

Sheesh if this doesn't say something about how badly we've screwed up the greatness of the nation, nothing else does.

The report, drawing on Pentagon data, says almost three out of four 17- to 24-year-olds are ineligible for service for a variety of reasons including:

-- 35 percent ineligible for medical/physical problems.

-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

-- 9 percent ineligible for mental problems.

-- 6 percent have too many dependents.

-- 5 percent have a criminal record.


A great question posed by Jack Cafferty on CNN just now - where would we have been in 1941 had similar conditions been the case? Our years of graft and gluttony and inability to address the symptoms of poverty have resulted in an entire generation of young people that couldn't even serve if we really needed them to.
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GDB
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:26 pm

When conscription came in during WW1 and also WW2, it was found that many who were from poor backgrounds, especially in the First World War in Britain, were unfit for service, at least without a lot of extra preparation.
They were often stunted, had serious ongoing, untreated medical condition, such as TB, rickets, diphtheria.

The effects of the life so far of terrible housing conditions, poor diet, no access or little access to health-care had taken it's toll.
Though the latter problem was fixed in the years after 1948 in Britain, which made the 'peacetime' conscription from 1947-1960 much less affected by these factors.
 
Superfly
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:35 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

Change this requirement. The military will certianly straighten up these drug users for sure.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Our years of graft and gluttony and inability to address the symptoms of poverty have resulted in an entire generation of young people that couldn't even serve if we really needed them to.

Haven't some public schools cut physical education in an effort to cut cost? Not to mention, many extracurricular activities such as sports, music, dance, etc... been cut due to budget cuts.
Combine this with the fact that India and China is producing more engineers and doctors than we are will have serious long-term consequences.
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fr8mech
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:02 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

I think some extra time in Boot Camp or Basic should take care of a few of these folks.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 5 percent have a criminal record.

Depending on the crime, this can also go down.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The report, drawing on Pentagon data,

Question: Is this data of folks who have actually been turned away, or is the Pentagon extrapolating from the data in the general population?
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Superfly
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:08 am



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 3):
Question: Is this data of folks who have actually been turned away, or is the Pentagon extrapolating from the data in the general population?

I was thinking the same.

Also;

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 9 percent ineligible for mental problems.

Keep in mind, many in this younger generation has been over-prescribed unnecessary behavioral drugs such as ritalin, prozac and similar drugs. Many are just normal kids that need more attention, discipline, better parenting, etc.
Many could serve our country well.
Bring back the Concorde
 
eaa3
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:12 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 6 percent have too many dependents.

Does the military not accept people with to many kids?
 
windy95
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:19 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

Change this requirement. The military will certianly straighten up these drug users for sure.



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 3):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

I think some extra time in Boot Camp or Basic should take care of a few of these folks.

Do you guys really think that boot camp or the military way of life stops drug users.? The military does not straighten out drug users. Seen many a drug bust including 10 to 20 year people.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 5):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 6 percent have too many dependents.

Does the military not accept people with to many kids?

I believe it would be covering single parents who would have troubles with deployments and extended tiem away.
 
Superfly
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:42 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 6):
Do you guys really think that boot camp or the military way of life stops drug users.?

Not always.
Keep in mind, the government still classifies marijuana as a drug even though it's effects is less harsh than alcohol with is legal. So technically, a 17 year old busted for possession of marijuana would be considered ineligible for 'illegal drug use'. Boot camp could certainly change that person's way of life.
Crackheads on the other hand.....
Bring back the Concorde
 
windy95
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:45 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Boot camp could certainly change that person's way of life.

Boot camp does not magicaly change anyone. You have to want to be changed. It can make you sharper, stronger and help mold you or you can dislike and continue on in your ways after you survive it.
 
Superfly
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:51 am



Quoting Windy95 (Reply 8):

Well I guess we're screwed.  Sad
Bring back the Concorde
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:57 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Well I guess we're screwed.

My feelings exactly. We maybe raising a next generation of misfits. Look around, that should tell us. Young America is my favorite expression when I look around, sad.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:04 am

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 5):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 6 percent have too many dependents.

Does the military not accept people with to many kids?

There's conflict of interests. There can be a handful of reasons that can affect one's job and readiness. Keep in mind the military's screening process ensures people have the least amount of baggage starting their service or career. This is not to say that you can't have more kids, develop medical problems later on because their is more leniency once you are in the military.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Quoting Windy95 (Reply 6):
Do you guys really think that boot camp or the military way of life stops drug users.?

Not always.
Keep in mind, the government still classifies marijuana as a drug even though it's effects is less harsh than alcohol with is legal. So technically, a 17 year old busted for possession of marijuana would be considered ineligible for 'illegal drug use'. Boot camp could certainly change that person's way of life.
Crackheads on the other hand.....

I just wanted to chime in the biggest reason for Marijuana or any illicit drugs being illegal in the Military has to do with some occupational hazards one being a notable aircraft crash on the Navy but the history goes back to Vietnam. Heres a little history.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stori...aug/26/navy-revamping-drug-policy/

"On May 26, 1981, a jet crash and fire on the deck of the aircraft carrier Nimitz off the coast of Florida killed 14 sailors, injured 48 others and caused about $150 million in damage. What caused a shockwave throughout the Navy, though, was news that traces of marijuana were found in the systems of six of the dead sailors, and that drugs contributed to the crash and its aftermath.

Seven months later, President Ronald Reagan's administration announced a zero-tolerance drug policy for all military branches. All service members were subject to urinalysis, and those who failed could be punished with courts-martial and discharge."

But the same policy applies to all branches as you all know. My 2 cents...

[Edited 2009-11-06 19:12:23]
 
Superfly
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:25 am



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 11):
I just wanted to chime in the biggest reason for Marijuana or any illicit drugs being illegal in the Military has to do with some occupational hazards one being a notable aircraft crash on the Navy but the history goes back to Vietnam. Heres a little history.

I wasn't condoning marijuana use while in the military. I was speaking as if a 17 year old had a drug conviction on his/her record prior to entering the service.
I wouldn't condone marijuana use while on the job period.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:45 am

I didn't think you had. Quite interestingly I was a recruiter in Brooklyn quite a while ago. I knew there would be a noticeable increase in drug use in the civilian population. It was more rampant than I thought.

I remember they loosened the restrictions for people in DEP or joining and popping positive at MEPS. You could actually get waivered up to 2 times if you do pop +. However some things like choice of jobs, being able to be stationed overseas goes away. But once you're in Boot Camp and you show positive on the test then your finished. No 2nd chances.
 
varigb707
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:04 am

The men and women of the military, are doing fine.

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Maverick623
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:25 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):

-- 35 percent ineligible for medical/physical problems.

I'd bet 75% of those are due to over/underweight issues which can be remedied fairly easily.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
The military will certianly straighten up these drug users for sure.

Ha!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
So technically, a 17 year old busted for possession of marijuana would be considered ineligible for 'illegal drug use'.

Not so. People who have "experimented" with marijuana are not only allowed to enlist, but become officers.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:44 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
So technically, a 17 year old busted for possession of marijuana would be considered ineligible for 'illegal drug use'.

Not so. People who have "experimented" with marijuana are not only allowed to enlist, but become officers.

I believe the AIr Force wouldn't allow people to enlist if they had tried marijuana back in the day. Not sure if thats still the case. I know selling drugs or similar is an automatic disqualifier.
 
RobertNL070
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:58 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 35 percent ineligible for medical/physical problems.

65 per cent are not ineligible due to medical/physical ailments.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

82 per cent are not ineligible due to illegal drug use.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 9 percent ineligible for mental problems.

91 per cent are not ineligible due to mental health problems.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 6 percent have too many dependents.

94 per cent do not have too many dependents.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 5 percent have a criminal record.

95 per cent do not have a criminal record.

Try to look on the bright side  Smile
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Maverick623
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:45 pm



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
I believe the AIr Force wouldn't allow people to enlist if they had tried marijuana back in the day. Not sure if thats still the case.

Actually, that was the branch I was referring to. Dunno when that was changed, but it was by the time I enrolled in AFROTC in 2004.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
I know selling drugs or similar is an automatic disqualifier.

Absolutely... as it should be.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
AGM100
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:06 pm

If ever we needed mandatory "military" enlistment it is now. I know the president spoke on the campaign traill about "service" but I am not sure he was referring to military (doubtful) .

I would fully support all highschool senior age citizens rotating though a basic training program of some type. Physical fitness , 1st Aid CPR, emergency response , navigation and team building skills could be practiced and drilled . Some could move on too military training with weapons and all of that but just good old fashioned rigours boot-camp would do our kids allot of good. Hell most of them can not even fold there freeking clothes and shine there shoes !
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Kiwirob
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:00 pm

If 75% are unable to serve now, just imagine what the next generation is going to be like.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:05 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
Hell most of them can not even fold there freeking clothes and shine there shoes !

Something tells me that the ability to fold clothes and shine shoes has little to do with battlefield effectiveness.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
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akiss20
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:02 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 19):
Hell most of them can not even fold there freeking clothes and shine there shoes !

At least we can spell "freaking"  Yeah sure

Every generation thinks that the next is destined to doom humanity. I am part of this younger generation of "misfits" and while we of course have our misfits, we also have many many individuals excited to tackle the problems that YOUR generation created. You can yell and scream that we are terrible, but consider how those problems came about and be thankful that there are still individuals such as myself and many of my peers who still think a better, cleaner, and brighter future is possible, even if many parts of the older generation try and prevent such thinking from existing.

The world is not doomed, it may be going through a rough patch, but it will get better.
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BMI727
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:25 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
35 percent ineligible for medical/physical problems.

-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

-- 9 percent ineligible for mental problems.

-- 6 percent have too many dependents.

-- 5 percent have a criminal record.

Does this account for people who fall into more than one category? There are probably at least some obese felons with a drug problem.
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ManuCH
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:05 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

We still have the draft in Switzerland, as the military service is mandatory. Believe me, if illegal drug use were a reason not to be drafted, suddenly 90% of all 18-year-old Swiss males would show up stoned at recruiting day to be kicked out  Silly

Seriously, illegal drug use shouldn't be a reason to be unfit for the Army. Being gay in the military isn't illegal in Switzerland either, otherwise the same 90% that would be stoned on recruiting day would instead fake being gay.
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:27 pm

I dare to say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current generation of youngsters, just the military became picky. That's, IMHO, a good thing. Military service requires a proper mix of physical and mental abilities, not everybody has it

I remember the days of mandatory service in Czechoslovakia. Everyone who was able to walk was fit for service.
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ual777
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:49 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):

My feelings exactly. We maybe raising a next generation of misfits. Look around, that should tell us. Young America is my favorite expression when I look around, sad.

That is your failure then. Not ours.

I enlisted in 2004 to "do my part." I also read a news article once that stated that the average age of a service member in Iraq at the time was 19.8 years old.
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HAWK21M
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:06 am

I guess its about Dicipline & Education......Not something that cannot be turned around.
India too has a very young population & that what the key is.
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Blackprojects
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:55 am

How many US inmates are on Life and will stay in Prison for ever?

If it was a worse case Scenario how long would it take the US to go and fetch the Lifers and Gang members who have Killed and put them in Unfotm and March them off to war?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:00 pm



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 28):
If it was a worse case Scenario how long would it take the US to go and fetch the Lifers and Gang members who have Killed and put them in Unfotm and March them off to war?

How do you motivate them to follow rules.
regds
MEL.
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L-188
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:51 am



Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
-- 9 percent ineligible for mental problems.

Keep in mind, many in this younger generation has been over-prescribed unnecessary behavioral drugs such as ritalin, prozac and similar drugs. Many are just normal kids that need more attention, discipline, better parenting, etc.
Many could serve our country well.

That is a big problem, If we spanked our kids more they wouldn't need the meds.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
I believe the AIr Force wouldn't allow people to enlist if they had tried marijuana back in the day. Not sure if thats still the case. I know selling drugs or similar is an automatic disqualifier

One, thing I have noticed is that if there is a wealth of recruits the rules tighten up, if they are short they loosen. In 1991 when I enlisted in the Army you had to have a high school diploma.
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casinterest
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:48 am

Hey, when the economy is good, the recruiters have to lower their standards, When the economy gets bad they tighten them.

The military always adjusts for what they need.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Combine this with the fact that India and China is producing more engineers and doctors than we are will have serious long-term consequences.

You can blame the Strong Dollar, Free Trade, and Offshoring on this one. Our government is making it unadvisable to attend college since you can't get a job and compete with the underwage folks in India and china and recoup your cost of schooling.




Most of these kids would straighten up under necessity. However necessity isn't something the Youth of the US have had to really deal with. If the US was truly threatened, the priorities of the education system ( Physical Education) and the youth (non ambivlance ) would change.

Preemptive wars in places like Afghanistan and Iraq , where we get mired in a quagmire of conflicting ideals and policies of how to run a war, do not endear patriotism, or a sense of urgency in the youth of America.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:10 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 30):
If we spanked our kids more they wouldn't need the meds.

So does this mean we can get a bipartisan effort to cripple pharmaceutical production and advertising for antidepressants??

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 31):
Most of these kids would straighten up under necessity. However necessity isn't something the Youth of the US have had to really deal with.

Ain't that the truth.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AGM100
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:42 pm



Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 22):
You can yell and scream that we are terrible

AKiss, I raise 3 of them and spend a good amount of time every weak working with high-school age kids. I did not mean to be disparaging of the entire generation ... I see many kids who are wonderful individuals.

One only needs to spend a little time around our young people training at say Ft Benning ,GA. I spend a few weeks there each year , and I am always amazed at the intelligence and dedication displayed by your generation . I also Just recently found out that about 30-40 kids from our high-school go regularly too the local food bank ,the blood bank and "the giving tree" to assist the poor families in our community. They do it for no reason other than ... too give back. I am active with our high-school charity efforts each year , but these kids just go on their own ! I am amazed .

Frankly ... my generation has no room to speak . We should be ashamed of ourselves and what we have done to our country. We are on the brink of becoming some banana republic , wrought with corruption ;devoid of purpose, flailing about in drug and alcohol abuse. So weak has my generation become that we look to the federal government to save us . We have sold out the dreams of our fathers and mothers who sought independents , self will and freedom. We have shilled away the standards fought for by them in the chase for self indulgence , lust and greed. All the while saddling your generation with trillions of dollars of debt un balanced trade and withering production.

You have every right to be pissed.
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sw733
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:48 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
18 percent ineligible for illegal drug use.

Yeah because drug use NEVER happens IN the military...
 
StuckInCA
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:00 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 10):
My feelings exactly. We maybe raising a next generation of misfits. Look around, that should tell us. Young America is my favorite expression when I look around, sad.

The older generations should take a hard look in the mirror rather than pointing fingers at "Young America." It didn't happen overnight.

These problems have been decades in the making.

In many ways, I feel like my parents' and, to a degree, grandparents' generations have bettered their lives at the expense of the future. Now they (many) sit around collecting SS, and fat pensions pointing fingers at "Young America." Young America is struggling to fund your pension and your Social Security. Young America is YOUR creation!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:22 pm

Wait...

Doesn't the Military want the Best and the Brightest?

Well, doesn't that imply that only a minority of people are good enough? 25% qualify to be "Best and Brightest." That's pretty good.

I wonder what's on Cartoon Network...
-Doc Lightning-

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WarRI1
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:47 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 35):
The older generations should take a hard look in the mirror rather than pointing fingers at "Young America." It didn't happen overnight.

These problems have been decades in the making.

In many ways, I feel like my parents' and, to a degree, grandparents' generations have bettered their lives at the expense of the future. Now they (many) sit around collecting SS, and fat pensions pointing fingers at "Young America." Young America is struggling to fund your pension and your Social Security. Young America is YOUR creation!

Trust me, my two were raised like I was. They had more by far, but today they are middle aged Americans that I have no problem with. Hard working and moral. I am now working on my Grandchildren to be the same.
Now, now, do not feel sorry for yourself, pay the taxes, work your ass off, we did. We supported you, now it is your turn in the barrel. We fought for what we thought was "right", belonged to unions, and made a good living, received good pensions. You guys let it slip away. I suggest the younger generation, coming does not know what is "right" by and large. The young guys in uniform have my great respect, just as I had great respect for the WW2, Korea and Viet Nam Vets.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
L-188
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:00 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 32):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 30):
If we spanked our kids more they wouldn't need the meds.

So does this mean we can get a bipartisan effort to cripple pharmaceutical production and advertising for antidepressants??

It would be nice if the liberals stepped on board, but they consider spanking child abuse, so they would rather start them out on the anti-depressents and them move them over to Mary-Jane and Heroin.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 37):
Trust me, my two were raised like I was. They had more by far, but today they are middle aged Americans that I have no problem with. Hard working and moral. I am now working on my Grandchildren to be the same.

Hey I have always thought the kids that grew up working on the farm or their uncles fishing boat had their heads screwed on quite a bit tighter then kids today.

Another factor is that the age of majourity has been increasing over the years. At the turn of the last century it wasn't exactly unheard of for kids to be on their own at 15, married by 16. Just a generation ago it was 18 and your out the door. Then it seems to have slipped to 21-22, when you are supposed to get out of college, Hell in some cases we have kids who think they don't have to be on their own by 25.

Lets face it, having to fend for yourself does tend to give you a different world view.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:17 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
It would be nice if the liberals stepped on board, but they consider spanking child abuse, so they would rather start them out on the anti-depressents and them move them over to Mary-Jane and Heroin.

What? Forget about abuse. Are there any studies that show that spanking leads to well adjusted, well behaved children? I know there are studies showing the opposite. It leads to violent children for one thing.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 37):

Ugh. You had a great respectable union job. You like to rant about "them" and "the man" and "wall street." You allude to day when hard working men raised honest boys who, I presume, fished and hunted who grew up to be god fearin' christians who got union jobs at their daddy's factories...

Nothing wrong with any of that. I wasn't even trying to talk directly to you with my post. My point is that you (and your generation) should consider how your choices and actions have affected the world and where we are today.

Thinking how you did (almost) everything right and only got what you deserved while "Young America" is just a bunch of unintelligent, unmotivated, unskilled fools isn't helping anyone. I'm saying that America's older generations have more to do with your perceived opinion of "Young America" than "Young America" does. Feel free to disagree. Or to wait until your union sends you a handy postcard in the mail telling you how to feel.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:46 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
Lets face it, having to fend for yourself does tend to give you a different world view.

It certainly does. A dose of realism is missing today for tons of kids, and they do tend to stay home longer than we did. You can say this for mandatory military service, it tought most a life long sense of Patriotism, a code of conduct and discipline. It did in my generation anyway. Something seems to be missing from many who do not go into the service. Discipline maybe?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
L-188
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:51 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 40):
You can say this for mandatory military service, it tought most a life long sense of Patriotism, a code of conduct and discipline. It did in my generation anyway. Something seems to be missing from many who do not go into the service. Discipline maybe?

I am not for the draft for couple of different reasons. But one has to wonder if it's abolishment in the mid-seventies had a lot to do with the degredation of American society since then.

As you noted, it does teach dicipline and a sense of responsiblity, remember the stories of the judge saying, "The Army or Jail" to teenagers.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:53 am



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 39):

Ugh. You had a great respectable union job. You like to rant about "them" and "the man" and "wall street." You allude to day when hard working men raised honest boys who, I presume, fished and hunted who grew up to be god fearin' christians who got union jobs at their daddy's factories...

Nothing wrong with any of that. I wasn't even trying to talk directly to you with my post. My point is that you (and your generation) should consider how your choices and actions have affected the world and where we are today.

Thinking how you did (almost) everything right and only got what you deserved while "Young America" is just a bunch of unintelligent, unmotivated, unskilled fools isn't helping anyone. I'm saying that America's older generations have more to do with your perceived opinion of "Young America" than "Young America" does. Feel free to disagree. Or to wait until your union sends you a handy postcard in the mail telling you how to feel.

There are certain times, when I fear for America, now is one of those times.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:15 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):
I am not for the draft for couple of different reasons. But one has to wonder if it's abolishment in the mid-seventies had a lot to do with the degredation of American society since then.



Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):
it does teach dicipline and a sense of responsiblity, remember the stories of the judge saying, "The Army or Jail" to teenagers

That is the way, I and all my friends of our age remember it. Almost everyone that I know served. Something has changed for the worst in our country, maybe a lack of a sense of purpose? Thank goodness!, we still have these fine brave volunteers to protect our butts. I sure do remember those people who needed to kicked into the service by the judge. They needed it.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:43 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
If 75% are unable to serve now, just imagine what the next generation is going to be like

I'll just say this without knocking newer or older generations. The desensitization of society away from moral or traditional values throughout the years especially the 20th Century. Just my 2 cents.

Mike

[Edited 2009-11-10 11:52:49]
 
Maverick623
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:00 pm



Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 39):
I know there are studies showing the opposite. It leads to violent children for one thing.

Funny, because myself, my sisters, and all my cousins (I do have a VERY large extended family) all turned out just fine. And we were all spanked.... when we were bad.

Those "studies" you are citing usually only look at those who are spanked (or worse) often or for minor transgressions.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 44):
The desensitization of society away from moral or traditional values especially the 20th Century

If you think values ever existed anywhere other than in a few people's minds, you are sadly mistaken. History is wrought with people that may have preached one thing, but did just the opposite.

The only difference today is that most people are no longer secretive about what they do.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:13 pm



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 44):
The desensitization of society away from moral or traditional values throughout the years especially the 20th Century.

Traditional values don't mean moral by any stretch of the imagination. Traditional values were once that blacks are inferior to whites, that any non-Christian/non-Muslim/non-whatever deserves to die etc etc. You can't say that just because my generation holds different values than what was "traditional" means they are necessarily worse. I would argue that my generation is far more accepting of differences than yours (all you have to do is look at the age distribution of support for same-sex marriage to get a glimpse of that). In my mind, that is more moral than shunning those who are different.

Also, being gungho about joining the military and fighting a war isn't "Patriotic" or "moral." I consider it a lot more moral to be against going to war unless it is absolutely, positively, verifiably necessary. It saves millions of both civilian and military lives that way.

To those who say that my generation have been spoiled and handed everything they want on a silver platter, I will say yes some have that, but so did some in the 50s. Granted we are a generation that is a product of the Baby Boomers, who have matured and spawned in relatively opulent times (arguably, the entire post WWII half of the 20th century was relatively opulent) so we may have grown up with more access to resources than the older generation, but that does not mean we are handed our lives and success. My parents were able to provide me not only the bare essentials, but much more than that. They provided me with every tool I needed to succeed, but still, they could not hand me success; no parent can. I worked my ass off in school, stayed away from drugs and alcohol, gave back to the community, and tried to the best of my ability to be a good person, I say this not because I am the exception and I want to make myself look good, but rather because I am not the exception. I have met many people just like me, and their success inspires me to work even more.

Finally, as to a lack of purpose, I would point to the 1960s and say "look at those teens, what are they doing with their life?" and yet they grew up to be fully functional members of society. Moreover, the multi-faceted problems of the modern world give us even more sense of purpose than perhaps the previous generation. When things are good, it is hard to see a goal, but when things are bad, the goal is clear. One of the things I like best about coming here to MIT is that I get to interact with people who have the greatest ambitions that I could imagine. People here look to cure cancer, help stop global warming, manufacture organisms for high-efficiency batteries, adapt wind turbines for greater efficiency. There are many faults with our generation, but they are not faults never before-seen. My generation will have its growing pains just like yours did, but just as yours did, it will grow up and strive to make the world a better place than it is currently. This is what I see everyday, this is what I believe, and this is all I can believe. If you cannot see this, or are unwilling to see this, I am truly sorry for you; that must be the saddest emotion possible
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:41 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 44):
The desensitization of society away from moral or traditional values especially the 20th Century

If you think values ever existed anywhere other than in a few people's minds, you are sadly mistaken. History is wrought with people that may have preached one thing, but did just the opposite.

The only difference today is that most people are no longer secretive about what they do


I'm not going to argue that point. We all know corrupt people in society but that really isn't the point. Anything from religious to politcial leaders etc... you name it. But when you you start accepting one thing as a norm then other things eventually become the norm.

Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 46):
Traditional values don't mean moral by any stretch of the imagination. Traditional values were once that blacks are inferior to whites, that any non-Christian/non-Muslim/non-whatever deserves to die etc etc. You can't say that just because my generation holds different values than what was "traditional" means they are necessarily worse. I would argue that my generation is far more accepting of differences than yours (all you have to do is look at the age distribution of support for same-sex marriage to get a glimpse of that). In my mind, that is more moral than shunning those who are different.

Look you can take the meaning of morals and traditional values any way you want to each to his own, however this isn't finger pointing one generation. I knew it would get picked apart anyways which is the very reason I made it a general statement.

Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 46):
Also, being gungho about joining the military and fighting a war isn't "Patriotic" or "moral." I consider it a lot more moral to be against going to war unless it is absolutely, positively, verifiably necessary. It saves millions of both civilian and military lives that way.

Totally agree. BTW Many people didn't join the military because they are Gung-Ho about fighting. In fact people of many different walks of life & economic classes join for different reasons. I've seen people from good & bad rich & poor backgrounds. My point is there are stereo types about the military that it's a last resort or for criminals but thats another topic for another day.

Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 46):
To those who say that my generation have been spoiled and handed everything they want on a silver platter, I will say yes some have that, but so did some in the 50s. Granted we are a generation that is a product of the Baby Boomers, who have matured and spawned in relatively opulent times (arguably, the entire post WWII half of the 20th century was relatively opulent) so we may have grown up with more access to resources than the older generation, but that does not mean we are handed our lives and success. My parents were able to provide me not only the bare essentials, but much more than that. They provided me with every tool I needed to succeed, but still, they could not hand me success; no parent can. I worked my ass off in school, stayed away from drugs and alcohol, gave back to the community, and tried to the best of my ability to be a good person, I say this not because I am the exception and I want to make myself look good, but rather because I am not the exception. I have met many people just like me, and their success inspires me to work even more.

Finally, as to a lack of purpose, I would point to the 1960s and say "look at those teens, what are they doing with their life?" and yet they grew up to be fully functional members of society. Moreover, the multi-faceted problems of the modern world give us even more sense of purpose than perhaps the previous generation. When things are good, it is hard to see a goal, but when things are bad, the goal is clear. One of the things I like best about coming here to MIT is that I get to interact with people who have the greatest ambitions that I could imagine. People here look to cure cancer, help stop global warming, manufacture organisms for high-efficiency batteries, adapt wind turbines for greater efficiency. There are many faults with our generation, but they are not faults never before-seen. My generation will have its growing pains just like yours did, but just as yours did, it will grow up and strive to make the world a better place than it is currently. This is what I see everyday, this is what I believe, and this is all I can believe. If you cannot see this, or are unwilling to see this, I am truly sorry for you; that must be the saddest emotion possible

I can tell you that my parents did not set me up for success, however I don't blame them. My Parents taught me a lot about life and were strict but fair. I started officially working when I was 16-17 ish part time. No one motivated me to have a career as I had to work hard and keep trying to learn. i don't seek praise or acceptance but I know that without some sort of drive values or motivation and personal goals I wouldn't be where I today.

Mike

[Edited 2009-11-10 14:09:32]
 
SPEEDBIRD174
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:58 pm

IMHO some of the reasons for ineligibility are totally and utterly nonsense, as mentioned in previous posts by others, those with criminal records, drugs offenses and a few offspring here and there would do well in the military.
Honestly, they would come out changed men and women after basic military training, different attitudes, skills, much fitter and healthier etc etc. It would do them GOOD. And the country too.
Only those with serious medical/psychological/physical reasons should be officially excluded.
 bigmouth 
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:24 pm



Quoting Speedbird174 (Reply 48):
IMHO some of the reasons for ineligibility are totally and utterly nonsense, as mentioned in previous posts by others, those with criminal records, drugs offenses and a few offspring here and there would do well in the military.
Honestly, they would come out changed men and women after basic military training, different attitudes, skills, much fitter and healthier etc etc. It would do them GOOD. And the country too.
Only those with serious medical/psychological/physical reasons should be officially excluded.

I think part of it has to do with setting the standards for the DOD there your basic requiremnents then some services adjust the requirements to their needs. Also I suppose if they make a rule it has to apply to all.

But I also remember I missed too many days of my senior year due to personal problems and had to go to an Alternative High School to graduate in time witrh my High School Diploma. The Army and Marines did not view my Alternative High School as traditional High School but the Navy and Air Force did. Kinda weird. I've also heard of people getting medically rejected for flat feet in one service and accepted in another. As far as crimials go I believe they only did the jail to the Army thing during time of war mostly. But the other services wont accept them.

So yeah it can be frustrating. For some of these people that stay 20 years they can be set up with all the aforementioned things plus retierment, medical and other VA benefits for life.

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