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L-188
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:38 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 43):
That is the way, I and all my friends of our age remember it. Almost everyone that I know served. Something has changed for the worst in our country, maybe a lack of a sense of purpose? Thank goodness!, we still have these fine brave volunteers to protect our butts. I sure do remember those people who needed to kicked into the service by the judge. They needed it.

Just as a side note, the last draftee retired this year.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:16 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):

I am not for the draft for couple of different reasons. But one has to wonder if it's abolishment in the mid-seventies had a lot to do with the degredation of American society since then.

Yes, because nobody who goes through the military turns out a dead-beat.

I'm sorry, but the most messed-up group of people I've ever worked with was at the VA. All those men started their life-long bad habits of drinking, smoking, and eating unhealthy food... in the military.

The military might teach responsibility and dedication, but there are other places to learn those lessons.

And, besides, it is the job of the Military to defend the United States. Not to effect societal change. I reject the idea that going through the military is somehow virtuous in and of itself.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:29 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
I'm sorry, but the most messed-up group of people I've ever worked with was at the VA. All those men started their life-long bad habits of drinking, smoking, and eating unhealthy food... in the military.

Are we talking about people that have been out a while or people on Active Duty? Because I can assure you that crowd is not the same people I serve with now. Are there exceptions to the rule? Most certainly.

I can't speak for the Army, Marines, Air Force. I know Alcohol was deglamorized 15 years ago which now Alcohol offenses will almost get you kicked out nowadays.

I could go on about other stuff but my point is this is not the same crowd I heard stories about when I joined. The times have changed, the people have changed, and so have the demographics of the people being recruited have changed.

Having said that I know there are people that live the way you mention, however when i went back to my High School reunion not to compare but I was in better physical shape, and a lot healthier than my old classmates. Meaning I could really tell the difference for the most part.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
The military might teach responsibility and dedication, but there are other places to learn those lessons.

And, besides, it is the job of the Military to defend the United States. Not to effect societal change. I reject the idea that going through the military is somehow virtuous in and of itself.

Actually I fully agree with you here. If someone joins to change their attitude their going to be sadly disappointed. If they don't have some sort of motivation then nothing will really change them and I see this mentality all the time. Truth be told the people that come in thinking this will usually get kicked out for some behavior reasons anyways.

I like many others joined because to me its a job so the rest is just gravy. I could never understand why society thinks the military is a dumping ground for societies troubled. There are many good people that are here because they simply want to do a job.

[Edited 2009-11-11 12:33:30]
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:35 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):
And, besides, it is the job of the Military to defend the United States. Not to effect societal change. I reject the idea that going through the military is somehow virtuous in and of itself.

By instilling the values of discipline, loyalty to a cause, such as family, country, a sense of duty to something other than ones self, the military does effect societal change. Many times it is not taught at home in our society today. When you enter the military voluntarily, for whatever reason, and you put your life on the line, damm! that is sure a virtue to me. More so now than when we all faced mandatory service. "Virtue", "A good and admirable quality"
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
ual777
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:06 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 51):


And, besides, it is the job of the Military to defend the United States. Not to effect societal change. I reject the idea that going through the military is somehow virtuous in and of itself.

Honor, Courage, Commitment.

USMC.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:10 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 53):

By instilling the values of discipline, loyalty to a cause, such as family, country, a sense of duty to something other than ones self, the military does effect societal change.

Really? That's why every group of off-duty enlisted men I've run into acts like a bunch of rowdy toughs? That's why gays still get their skulls bashed in to this day? That's why there are incident after incident of rape, murder, sexual harassment, and prisoner abuse? They aren't isolated incidents. Do you think that "Iraqi Camera" sign was funny? It wasn't funny.

Yeah, that's discipline, loyalty, and duty for you.

There are plenty of ways to learn discipline, loyalty to a cause, and a sense of duty. And, frankly, if it took until you were 18 to learn those values, your parents royally screwed up. I'd learned those things years before I was old enough to be in the military.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:19 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
Do you think that "Iraqi Camera" sign was funny? It wasn't funny.

Not familiar with the sign.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
Really? That's why every group of off-duty enlisted men I've run into acts like a bunch of rowdy toughs? That's why gays still get their skulls bashed in to this day? That's why there are incident after incident of rape, murder, sexual harassment, and prisoner abuse? They aren't isolated incidents. Do you think that "Iraqi Camera" sign was funny? It wasn't funny.


When you have a large number of anyone, there are a few bad guys, or even girls these days. The vast majority, including myself. my son, my four brothers, my five brother-in-laws who served, are decent people. If you are talking about war zone incidents, yes they have happened. All through history they have happened. The US Military, by a vast majority are decent people. Many years ago, I do remember myself being a little rowdy at times, no gay bashing allowed though. The incidents of gay bashing, rape, murder are isolated incidents. Not many want to tangle with the military justice system, believe it or not. As was said, for normal folks serving, they never forget the discipline instilled by the military. Notice, I said, normal. I would have to ask, where the hell do you run into all those bad boys?


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
There are plenty of ways to learn discipline, loyalty to a cause, and a sense of duty. And, frankly, if it took until you were 18 to learn those values, your parents royally screwed up. I'd learned those things years before I was old enough to be in the military.

Trust me, I wish you had met my Father, Mother and Uncles, you would not even go there about what age I learned discipline. Justice was swift and painful. a lesson never forgotten. We did not have much, but damm we knew how to behave. No bad conduct discharges in my family.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
ual777
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:58 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):

Really? That's why every group of off-duty enlisted men I've run into acts like a bunch of rowdy toughs? That's why gays still get their skulls bashed in to this day? That's why there are incident after incident of rape, murder, sexual harassment, and prisoner abuse? They aren't isolated incidents. Do you think that "Iraqi Camera" sign was funny? It wasn't funny.

Yeah, that's discipline, loyalty, and duty for you.

There are plenty of ways to learn discipline, loyalty to a cause, and a sense of duty. And, frankly, if it took until you were 18 to learn those values, your parents royally screwed up. I'd learned those things years before I was old enough to be in the military.

That is totally off-base and uncalled for.

First off, the sign was hilarious. Its military humor which you obviously don't get.

Second, it is rare in the Marines or Army to find someone who hasn't been to "The Sandbox". So if guys coming back party hard OFF-DUTY what is wrong with that??

I will tell you a story. I was in Mexicali with a group of Marines a few years ago. One of my friends was shipping out to Iraq the following week. We got hammered and hit the strip clubs off duty. Guess what? Six weeks later he took a sniper round in the face in Fallujah and died. He was 19.

Most off-duty enlisted ARE rowdy and they ARE very tough (in the Corps and Army at least). Do not try to compare what you learned to what the military teaches. Duty is laying it all on the line when you are taking incoming weapons fire and RPGs are flying by your head. Duty is having the stones to clear a house having no idea what is on the other side.

As for the gay skull bashing and all of that, it IS isolated. Very isolated.

The Marine Corps taught me what Duty, Honor, Courage, Commitment, and Sacrifice really are. I thought I knew, but I didn't until I experienced it.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:12 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 53):
By instilling the values of discipline, loyalty to a cause, such as family, country, a sense of duty to something other than ones self, the military does effect societal change.

Agree with what you said about bad apples in every bunch but I can't shake the terrible impression I had in Okinawa last April on a family trip. My mom flew out from the states to visit with my wife and kids, and we treated her to a week in Okinawa. We went to a major attraction that had a gift shop known for a large variety of quality local food products and were absolutely appalled by the behavior of a large group of young'uns from Camp Schwab. Despite all being USMC, they were a bunch of misbehaving monkeys. Rude comments to young girls working in the shop (what do you think of my muscles?? if you think they're big...WTF even says that??!), demanding better English from the older ladies running a sake tasting station, and by far the worst - proclaiming loudly that a display of ground local seeds looked like "a bunch of dogsh*t" to all in earshot. I find it hard to believe an entire group of 20 or 30 Marines flunked their local briefing so badly - they just plain didn't care and thought they owned the place.

And no surprise, just like high school - when someone who was obviously higher ranked brought up the rear with his wife and kids, suddenly all of the monkey business stopped.  Yeah sure
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:58 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
Really? That's why every group of off-duty enlisted men I've run into acts like a bunch of rowdy toughs?

Whoa easy there Rowdy Toughs?  Yeah sure

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
That's why gays still get their skulls bashed in to this day? That's why there are incident after incident of rape, murder, sexual harassment, and prisoner abuse? They aren't isolated incidents. Do you think that "Iraqi Camera" sign was funny? It wasn't funny.

Yeah, that's discipline, loyalty, and duty for you.

Of course you seem to be lumping the military in to one stereotype here. I can assure yo the folks I serve with are for the most part decent, have families and trying to make a living. Sounds like you have an axe to grind. Like people said mentioned above there are bad apples but when your talking about 1.5 million in the military your bound to have incidents especially in war zones.

But don't compare these people to common criminals or thugs.
 
Superfly
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:20 am

America needs a leader like Joad Cressbeckler.
Listen to his plan for our youth at 2:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iqktCdX0hs

[Edited 2009-11-13 00:27:11]
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:40 am



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 59):

Of course you seem to be lumping the military in to one stereotype her

No I am not. I am pointing out that the military does not necessarily turn out fine individuals. The majority of fine individuals in the military are fine individuals because that's what they are. They are not fine individuals because the military made them that way.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 59):

Whoa easy there Rowdy Toughs? Yeah sure

Well...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 58):
We went to a major attraction that had a gift shop known for a large variety of quality local food products and were absolutely appalled by the behavior of a large group of young'uns from Camp Schwab. Despite all being USMC, they were a bunch of misbehaving monkeys. Rude comments to young girls working in the shop (what do you think of my muscles?? if you think they're big...WTF even says that??!), demanding better English from the older ladies running a sake tasting station, and by far the worst - proclaiming loudly that a display of ground local seeds looked like "a bunch of dogsh*t" to all in earshot.

Yeah. I've been around tons of soldiers. French, British, Spanish, Italian, Swedish. But only the U.S. troops collect stories like Aaron's.

Now, you can get all defensive and jump all over me for criticizing the military and the behavior of its personnel. Or you could accept that we have room to improve. Because we certainly don't act like the mighty leader that we ought to.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:27 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
That's why every group of off-duty enlisted men I've run into acts like a bunch of rowdy toughs?



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):


Quoting Mike89406,reply=59:
Of course you seem to be lumping the military in to one stereotype here

No I am not.

Oh come'on, of course you are.

You're making a sweeping generalization, based on nothing more than personal experiences. If there was ever an example of stereotyping, that would be it.

It's like me saying to you, all gays are queeny fems, because every one I've come across acts that way. Just as that argument would be absurd and insulting, so is yours. I expected you, of all people, to know how stereotyping can immediately destroy a person's credibility.

--------------

Anyway, the military doesn't create successful people. What the military does is give everyone the opportunities and tools for personally achieving that success. I've seen a lot of young guys really take advantage of those opportunities, and create a strong foundation for successful lives. But I've also seen a lot of people squander those same opportunities, but thankfully they usually reach their initial enlistment contract, and ETS'd. What is important to remember that like any other group of humans: there are lazy no good ones, and then there are self-starters who will grow into leaders. What I think even Doc would find hard to argue with: is that the military can give the disadvantaged the chance to reach great success, whereas in the civilian world it would be 10x harder to do.

As for fat people. Yeah, more and more recruits struggle with physical fitness. But they are simply a product of the greater society they come from. 10 weeks of basic training is simply not enough time to get some of these kids into proper physical shape. So it's the responsibility of the company level units to pick up, where basic and AIT left off.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:35 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 62):
What I think even Doc would find hard to argue with: is that the military can give the disadvantaged the chance to reach great success, whereas in the civilian world it would be 10x harder to do.

And that's precisely the reason so many folks who grow up disadvantaged go on to have fantastically successful lives in and after military service.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 62):
You're making a sweeping generalization, based on nothing more than personal experiences. If there was ever an example of stereotyping, that would be it.

I have to agree. There are veterans in my family who were enlisted and have never exhibited that kind of behavior...and I have no lack of confidence in the assumption that the vast majority are just like that.

What I want to know is: why are the USMC sending people they know are idiots in their ranks to a highly sensitive location like Okinawa??
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Mike89406
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:45 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
I am pointing out that the military does not necessarily turn out fine individuals. The majority of fine individuals in the military are fine individuals because that's what they are. They are not fine individuals because the military made them that way.

I understand that. There's the school of thought that says the military will add discipline, structure, or responsibilty to ones life. No it won't make a street person or criminal virtious but for those who already have some sort of pre-disposition of motivation it does change some people for the better.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
Yeah. I've been around tons of soldiers. French, British, Spanish, Italian, Swedish. But only the U.S. troops collect stories like Aaron's.

Ok, but again this is not the majority of military persons. There are rowdy and rude people out there but then again these are select group of folks perhaps younger in age.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 62):
Anyway, the military doesn't create successful people. What the military does is give everyone the opportunities and tools for personally achieving that success. I've seen a lot of young guys really take advantage of those opportunities, and create a strong foundation for successful lives. But I've also seen a lot of people squander those same opportunities, but thankfully they usually reach their initial enlistment contract, and ETS'd. What is important to remember that like any other group of humans: there are lazy no good ones, and then there are self-starters who will grow into leaders. What I think even Doc would find hard to argue with: is that the military can give the disadvantaged the chance to reach great success, whereas in the civilian world it would be 10x harder to do.

I think this sums it up.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 62):
As for fat people. Yeah, more and more recruits struggle with physical fitness. But they are simply a product of the greater society they come from. 10 weeks of basic training is simply not enough time to get some of these kids into proper physical shape. So it's the responsibility of the company level units to pick up, where basic and AIT left off.

Then again for us in the Navy the Physical Fitness standards are getting harder this is how they're weeding out undesirable troops, and downsizing a couple of the services.

But the quality of service men are getting better perhaps the economy so they are really looking at cream of the crop nowadays.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 63):
What I want to know is: why are the USMC sending people they know are idiots in their ranks to a highly sensitive location like Okinawa??

You know I don't want to single out the Marines but that area of the world and Japan has been a sore spot as well for the Navy too.

Mike
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:11 pm



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 64):

Ok, but again this is not the majority of military persons.

No, but it does *seem* to be a higher percentage of the U.S. Military than other countries. And if being in the military creates morality, discipline, honor, respect, and all that stuff, then this certainly flies in the face of that claim.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 62):
It's like me saying to you, all gays are queeny fems, because every one I've come across acts that way. Just as that argument would be absurd and insulting, so is yours. I expected you, of all people, to know how stereotyping can immediately destroy a person's credibility.

Please quote the word "all" in my post. You are putting words in my mouth and I am going to call you on it. I never said "all." I never even said "most." And if I did, then you need to prove it.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
acjflyer
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:29 pm



Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 17):
Try to look on the bright side

Excellent observation. Well done!!!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:37 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):

Please quote the word "all" in my post.

Ok, if I had put "every gay that I know..." would that really have made a difference?

"Every" and "all" are both all encompassing, and there is no difference the between the two. And no matter which one is used, is still does not excuse the fact that you launched into stereotyping an entire group of people. Especially when you should know better than most, how ignorant that makes you look.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:50 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 67):

Ok, if I had put "every gay that I know..." would that really have made a difference?

I re-read my post and I did say "every." I publicly apologize. That was a very poor choice of wording and it was a gross generalization.

The word "many" probably fits better. As in far more often than it ought to be.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
windy95
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RE: 75% Of Young Americans Unfit For Military

Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:28 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 63):
What I want to know is: why are the USMC sending people they know are idiots in their ranks to a highly sensitive location like Okinawa??

It has been that way since the end if WWII. The first time I flew in to kadena for a deployment back in 83 our briefing was to stay out of town on paydays because that was when the marines where unleashed in the City.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 65):
No, but it does *seem* to be a higher percentage of the U.S. Military than other countries

Not from what I had seen in my time in Europe. Not much difference

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 68):
The word "many" probably fits better.

No it does not......

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