RussianJet
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Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:25 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...thorised-Pearl-Harbour-attack.html

Yes, this nonsense again.  sarcastic 

The President shows respect to a foreign leader when meeting him abroad, and gets criticised for it.

Truly pathetic.
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Scorpio
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:55 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Truly pathetic.

 checkmark 

Sad thing is, you just know it's a matter of time before the likes of Hannity, Beck and O'Reilly dedicate entire episodes of their propaganda shows to this. And before the usual suspects right here join in...
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:12 pm



Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
Sad thing is, you just know it's a matter of time before the likes of Hannity, Beck and O'Reilly dedicate entire episodes of their propaganda shows to this. And before the usual suspects right here join in...

How often did you and your friends mock Bush for his supposed ignorance and stupidity?

The thing is that he's made this mistake before with the Saudi King. I didn't make a big deal about it because, hey, I've screwed up matters of foreign protocol myself. But generally you learn from your mistakes and don't repeat the same ones.

Those of you who have been to Japan will recognize the rules - I'm sure Obama had a protocol expert to brief him, but completely ignored him. The deep bow is only done (even in Japan) by children to the very old, and teachers, upon first introduction, (or after a long absence), and the religious. The religious only do it in front of deities, and the Emperor.

In meeting a person of “higher status” one bows only very slightly more than him (always a “him”). This in practice means a head-dip, and 2-3 degrees of hip-movement more than his, WHILE KEEPING EYE CONTACT AT ALL TIMES, and never bowing more than 10 degrees or so. One terminates this with a slow blink, then rising, then a release of the grasp with a final, small shake of the hand all in one, smooth movement. To a woman who is of higher status, one dips the head, and blinks slowly, with a soft, fingers-only grasp.

Only children are expected to avert the eyes during a bow, but the religious also will, during ceremony. Subsequent direct eye to eye contact is fleeting and rare during all conversations with anyone, as too much (as Americans are used to doing) denotes that you are viewing them with suspicion, and possibly scorn.

To those of equal status or position, eyes are met, hands are grasped, and a simultaneous 5-degree bow/head dip is done, along with the other nuances included. This is what Obama should have done even at his most reverential. It is what the Emperor was ready and willing to do, and he would have thought very highly of Obama for doing it. Watch films of Bush doing it, for a perfect example.
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Scorpio
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:21 pm

See, didn't take long, did it?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:29 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
The President shows respect to a foreign leader when meeting him abroad, and gets criticised for it.

Actually this time the criticism is rather warranted. Obama shouldn't be wasting his time, much less the image of the US Presidency, bowing to a man who is neither a leader or representative of any kind of legitimate history.

There is simply no logical reason to bow to the Japanese emperor in this day and age - aside from how useless and ceremonial that family is in its current incarnation - the title was stripped of all of its meaning during US occupation and the only reason Japan retains royalty to this day at all was because the US government refused to properly prosecute Hirohito for failing to stop the military government from pursuing their idiotic crusade for 15 years, culminating in the death of tens of millions of fellow Japanese, and countless other Asian citizens. That lies have been spread in the years past to spare his memory doesn't change what happened.

Obama didn't do his homework on this guy Akihito either. Though he's a pleasant and well-traveled fellow, at home he has done nothing to further the image of the Imperial family. Following his father's death, there were numerous attempts by Japanese and foreign scholars to provide a correct accounting of the Showa years - Akihito was extremely neutral, provided little assistance, and has remained virtually silent when right-wing groups in love with Imperial history attacked, intimidated, and in some cases assassinated fellow Japanese who questioned Hirohito's wartime responsibility. These same right wing groups regularly parade their war-apologist nationalist garbage on public holidays and weekends through city streets nationwide because this Emperor lacks the balls or presence of mind to send them packing for good. Is that someone you bow deeply to??

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 3):
See, didn't take long, did it?

Except that he's right - I've met Toyota senior directors, presidents of smaller companies and the like, and have never even come close to bowing like that.  Yeah sure
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D L X
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:59 pm

I agree that he shouldn't have done it, but I'd like to challenge those arch-Republicans here to explain why it's a big deal.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:23 pm



Quoting D l x (Reply 5):
I agree that he shouldn't have done it, but I'd like to challenge those arch-Republicans here to explain why it's a big deal.

The first time he did it (the Saudi visit), was not a big deal - just mark that down to ignorance and hope he learned his lesson.

But when he makes the same mistake AGAIN, you start having to wonder - Is he just being stupid, or is he trying to say something? I think it's the former, though you might disagree.
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RussianJet
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:25 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Obama shouldn't be wasting his time, much less the image of the US Presidency, bowing to a man who is neither a leader or representative of any kind of legitimate history.

Regardless of our own definition and standards of representation and legitimacy, there is no use pretending that the Emperor is not important or significant to Japan.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
I've met Toyota senior directors, presidents of smaller companies and the like, and have never even come close to bowing like that.

Are you really comparing company directors to the Emperor?

In any case, regardless of whether he bowed totally correctly or whatever, it is the fact that most of the criticism in the press etc. seems to be aimed at the fact that no US leader should show any deference to anyone else. That is just ridiculous.
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jfk69
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:26 pm

It isn't....Why start the topic? Cause you are trying to cause unnecessary debate.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:36 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 8):
It isn't....Why start the topic? Cause you are trying to cause unnecessary debate.

Why start the topic? Well, let me see. To find out people's opinions on the subject, of course. Perhaps even to gain the opportunity to learn or consider something I previously hadn't thought of or didn't know about the subject. Basically, for interest. If you don't think that's a good enough reason to discuss a particular topic then maybe a discussion forum isn't the place for you. On the other hand, if you disagree with what my opinion on the subject then maybe, and this is a crazy idea I know, just maybe you might state your reasons why and try to convince me otherwise? It could well prove more constructive and interesting for all concerned than attacking the very posting of a topic.
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Aaron747
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:37 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
Are you really comparing company directors to the Emperor?

That wasn't the point - the point was proper protocol in Japan. There is a tremendous social gulf between myself, an analyst under 30, and company executive in their 50s. Nonetheless I am only required to bow a little further than my counterpart does. Not that the Japanese ever expect foreigners to get anything right, but the President can certainly do better if he absolutely must show any respect to that shadow of a man.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):

Regardless of our own definition and standards of representation and legitimacy, there is no use pretending that the Emperor is not important or significant to Japan.

A majority of Japanese under 50 really don't give a fig one way or the other about the Imperials. Their significance is retained by their mere continued existence, softballing in history texts, and an extravagant lifestyle funded by riches primarily stolen and seized from neighboring countries 70+ years ago.
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RussianJet
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:56 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
That wasn't the point - the point was proper protocol in Japan. There is a tremendous social gulf between myself, an analyst under 30, and company executive in their 50s. Nonetheless I am only required to bow a little further than my counterpart does.

Fair enough. Naturally I will defer to your greater knowledge on the subject. Still, I can't help but get the feeling that the minutiae of protocol are not the greater focus of most of the criticism out there.
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jfk69
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:58 pm

You started the topic with this line.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Yes, this nonsense again

This is such a non story that the the News tries to blow out of hand so people like you will debate it and give them the oppurtunity to most more crap.

It is just like the TV gossip shows and newspapers. Actors bitch about the way they are protrayed but they love it, Stories on them lead to more and more coverage even if its negative it is still coverage and thats all they care about.

If we don't click on this story and we don't debate it then the coverage will stop cause the news outlets will see people could care less and maybe, just maybe they will start covering the real topics here like the economy and other domestic issues!
 
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seb146
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:01 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
How often did you and your friends mock Bush for his supposed ignorance and stupidity?

Don't you mean "ignoranceocity?" Or are you talking about the time he told America he would get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive" but then, a few months later, told reporters he didn't even think about OBL? Or "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job?" Or holding hands and kissing with the Saudi family?

I actually feel bad for the right-wing cheerleaders who don't understand any concept of diplomacy other than bomb the snot out of them.

So our current president bowed. Oh, the horror! And he is trying to give everyone health care. That bum! How dare he! Negotiations instead of aggression. Yeah, really bad guy we have here.  Yeah sure
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RussianJet
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:08 pm



Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12):
This is such a non story that the the News tries to blow out of hand so people like you will debate it and give them the oppurtunity to most more crap.

Why shouldn't we discuss the fact that the media has made a big deal of this? What is more, some people here apparently agree with much of the criticism.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12):
If we don't click on this story and we don't debate it then the coverage will stop cause the news outlets will see people could care less

People COULD care less? So logically they do care and could stand to care less?

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 12):
just maybe they will start covering the real topics here like the economy and other domestic issues!

I think you'll find those things do get mentioned in the media from time to time, like every single day or so. We discuss a full range of subjects here from the silly to the deadly serious, from the relatively trivial to the topics of global importance. I see nothing wrong with that diversity.
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:22 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
Still, I can't help but get the feeling that the minutiae of protocol are not the greater focus of most of the criticism out there.

Can't hold a candle to the minutiae of protocol for the inhabitants of Wingnutistan.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:37 pm



Quoting Johnboy (Reply 15):
Can't hold a candle to the minutiae of protocol for the inhabitants of Wingnutistan.

Would you be so kind as to explain what on earth that means?
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Flighty
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:51 pm

It's so odd that loutish people, who earn no respect of their own, criticize a man who does know how to be civilized. How much respect did John Bolton and Condi Rice get overseas... Oh, absolutely none? Could that be right? ...
 
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:01 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

Those of you who have been to Japan will recognize the rules - I'm sure Obama had a protocol expert to brief him, but completely ignored him. The deep bow is only done (even in Japan) by children to the very old, and teachers, upon first introduction, (or after a long absence), and the religious. The religious only do it in front of deities, and the Emperor.

 checkmark 

Now, neither you nor I know whether Obama followed the advice of his protocol adviser or not. If he did, then he needs a new adviser. If he didn't, then someone needs to give him a good thwack upside the head and tell him to pay attention next time.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

How often did you and your friends mock Bush for his supposed ignorance and stupidity?

Well, Bush Sr. did barf in the Emperor's lap...  duck 
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Starbuk7
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:01 pm



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
Still, I can't help but get the feeling that the minutiae of protocol are not the greater focus of most of the criticism out there.

Because protocol is protocol. Any U.S. sailor would have gotten it right, every time we pull into a foreign port we get briefed on the protocols so we can do the right thing in foreign lands and represent the United States in the proper way. Why oh why can't our president do it right if some lowly E-1 in the military can.

He is supposed to be the supreme representative of this country he should start acting like it.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 19):
Because protocol is protocol. Any U.S. sailor would have gotten it right, every time we pull into a foreign port we get briefed on the protocols so we can do the right thing in foreign lands and represent the United States in the proper way.

Oooooooof course, no US servicemen has ever got it wrong or misbehaved in Japan.  sarcastic 

Again, in any case, most of the criticism out there is not about his protocol error, but about a US head of state seen 'grovelling' to the Emperor. These are seperate issues.
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NIKV69
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:07 pm

Even though I am not an Obama fan I don't think is much of an issue. Practicing some local customs when you visit a country is simply that and not much more.
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:57 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
Even though I am not an Obama fan I don't think is much of an issue. Practicing some local customs when you visit a country is simply that and not much more.

This could be a first, but I agree with you on this subject. I am sure it is a show of respect for Japan and its customs.
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rfields5421
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:12 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 4):
Obama shouldn't be wasting his time, much less the image of the US Presidency, bowing to a man who is neither a leader or representative of any kind of legitimate history.

So President Reagan should not have met with, nor publicly praised, Emperor Hirohito ? Though I will admit many 'conservatives' were strong in their criticism of Reagan.

Despite the ignorance of most US citizens, the Emperor of Japan is key figure in the nation of Japan.

I guess by your standard, Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama should have refused to met with Queen Elizabeth.

[Edited 2009-11-16 19:15:24]
 
Derico
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:23 am

Bah, as a born and raised citizen of a New World country, I think royalties are silly and stupid (though I must admit peak my attention when in Europe, so I guess they are a tourist attraction). All the protocol and pomp is quite frankly so kisch for what will soon be 2010.

But I also see the president of the United States (the title), heading to the same direction as royalty. All that protocol and circumstance that has been developed for an temporarily elected citizen is rather taudry and amusingas well. I have heard the argument by some from the US that 'our president is different, from all the others''. Why? Because he has a few nukes and B2? Practically perhaps, but in terms of ceremony he is no more or less than the PM of Barbados.

I like how the the smaller countries handle their leaders. Deference, yes. All the bells and chimes and private collection of jetliners? Forget it. They are no special and probably more corrupt than you or me, so what deserves them all the ceremony and benefits of the doubt? I think they already get enough perks with the jobs they hold.
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Ken777
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:35 am

I grew up in the years of the "Ugly American" and saw too much of that arrogance in the previous administration.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 20):
Oooooooof course, no US servicemen has ever got it wrong or misbehaved in Japan.   

I had been married 10 weeks before my final WESTPAC deployment on a DDG in 69. As my first ship was nuclear powered we never made visits to Japan. The DDG was a different story and I enjoyed our visits there. With the Ugly American reputation I probably over compensated on manners. Must be those who followed me that caused the problems you're thinking about.  angel 
 
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LTU932
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:59 am



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
In meeting a person of “higher status” one bows only very slightly more than him (always a “him”). This in practice means a head-dip, and 2-3 degrees of hip-movement more than his, WHILE KEEPING EYE CONTACT AT ALL TIMES, and never bowing more than 10 degrees or so. One terminates this with a slow blink, then rising, then a release of the grasp with a final, small shake of the hand all in one, smooth movement. To a woman who is of higher status, one dips the head, and blinks slowly, with a soft, fingers-only grasp.

This reminds me of geography class in Germany. Our teacher showed us even how to properly accept another person's card. She emphasised also the point that if you put the card into your back pocket of your pants, it's considered disrespectful. You preferably put it into the chest pocket of your shirt, or anywhere else where you don't sit on the card..

Now, I have not had the chance of actually going to Japan to learn more about proper Japanese etiquette, but from what I've learned, these things are very important and simply can't be ignored if you don't want to run the danger of offending the person in front of you.
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seb146
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:30 am

I just heard that both Nixon and Eisenhower bowed to the Emporer of Japan. Or, do they not count because that was so long ago (read: they are Republicans)?
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Zentraedi
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:41 am

What's funny is that the Japanese[language] media here has picked up on the incredible over-reaction in the US.

Obama may have been a little over eager, but the storm this has created in the US is a bit of a joke.

Anyway, I find it odd that no one has brought up the awkwardness of mixing a handshake and a bow.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:21 am



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 27):
I just heard that both Nixon and Eisenhower bowed to the Emporer of Japan. Or, do they not count because that was so long ago

They bowed, but not so deeply as to be equivalent to a child before their god.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 23):

Despite the ignorance of most US citizens, the Emperor of Japan is key figure in the nation of Japan.

I guess by your standard, Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama should have refused to met with Queen Elizabeth.

Queen Elizabeth is a more legitimate ceremonial head of state and has the benefit of legitimate history on her side as well. The offspring of Hirohito - a man who personally authorized chemical weapons and torture in China, and condemned millions of his citizens to firebombed ruin by his inaction and quiet hopes for national glory - deserve no such respect, regardless of what some old-timer Japanese think. Nor should we really care what nationalist Japanese think, since they are on the wrong side of history and clearly take for granted the second chance their country was given despite its perilously close call with eternity.
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pacificjourney
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:33 am

Foreigners in Japan are never going to get the bowing thing right and you're on a hiding to nothing to even try. Just a dip of the head while shaking hands and leave it at that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
In meeting a person of “higher status” one bows only very slightly more than him (always a “him”). This in practice means a head-dip, and 2-3 degrees of hip-movement more than his, WHILE KEEPING EYE CONTACT AT ALL TIMES, and never bowing more than 10 degrees or so. One terminates this with a slow blink, then rising, then a release of the grasp with a final, small shake of the hand all in one, smooth movement. To a woman who is of higher status, one dips the head, and blinks slowly, with a soft, fingers-only grasp.

Only children are expected to avert the eyes during a bow, but the religious also will, during ceremony. Subsequent direct eye to eye contact is fleeting and rare during all conversations with anyone, as too much (as Americans are used to doing) denotes that you are viewing them with suspicion, and possibly scorn.

To those of equal status or position, eyes are met, hands are grasped, and a simultaneous 5-degree bow/head dip is done, along with the other nuances included. This is what Obama should have done even at his most reverential. It is what the Emperor was ready and willing to do, and he would have thought very highly of Obama for doing it. Watch films of Bush doing it, for a perfect example.

Not sure where you get a lot of this but some it is just wrong.

Meeting the Japanese Emporer is tricky one, yes he has a very stained past but on the other hand he is an acknowledged leader of Japanese society and you can't just blow him of to satisfy Aaron747 and the goons at home.
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Aaron747
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:17 pm



Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 30):
yes he has a very stained past but on the other hand he is an acknowledged leader of Japanese society and you can't just blow him of to satisfy Aaron747

Acknowledged leader of society?? In my years here I've never seen the Imperial family doing *anything* to lead society other than appearing on television on national holidays while greeting adoring fans or otherwise presiding over some kind of flower arrangement contest. It's a complex issue to be sure but that's no excuse to overstate their importance, much less support the bald-faced lie that has been carried by American propaganda and Japanese mass communication the last five decades. I've been told as much in private by many locals but nobody will speak publicly against it for fear of becoming targets of these malcontents:



Nobody's suggesting blowing him off - just a refusal to dine at his residence would suffice. Make them go outside the Imperial Palace walls for a change.
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pacificjourney
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:33 pm

In other words, blow them off ?

It's clear the imperial family tick you off in some personal way but they are a part of the order of things and it isn't really the place of visitors (you or Obama) to question that. You meet, greet, bow and move on.

A picture of the usual clowns talking about the Northern Territories, so what ?

I lived in Japan for 9 years and never once heard the attitude to the Imp's that you claim, some serious ambivalence certainly but that's all.
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rfields5421
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:08 pm

One of the big deals when I lived in Japan was people trying to guess the day Hirohito would be at the Ryōgoku Kokugikan so they could take their kids to see him.

We had a better view of the Emperor in the old Kuramae building - especially the Sept 84 final matches.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
The offspring of Hirohito - a man who personally authorized chemical weapons and torture in China, and condemned millions of his citizens to firebombed ruin by his inaction and quiet hopes for national glory - deserve no such respect, regardless of what some old-timer Japanese think.

Really? Attributing the sins of the father to the son? Kind of a weak arguement, don't you think?

Besides, it's not so much respecting the man as much as respecting the position as a symbol of Japan. I'd say the emperor deserves at least as much respect as the Hinomaru or Chrysanthemum seal. Do you go around bashing those for their role during the war?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:37 am



Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 32):
It's clear the imperial family tick you off in some personal way

That's right - a relative of my wife's has been trying to publish a book for years that is an exhaustively researched expose on the family and he has spent considerable time fighting the system - so much for free speech.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 34):
Really? Attributing the sins of the father to the son? Kind of a weak arguement, don't you think?

That wasn't the argument - go back to my first couple of posts regarding his unwillingness to assist scholars trying to provide a proper accounting of those years. Not to mention total silence when nationalists have attacked some of those same people. The people who revere the throne and act criminally in its name should be condemned for their actions by same.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 34):
I'd say the emperor deserves at least as much respect as the Hinomaru or Chrysanthemum seal

Those symbols have far greater meaning both historically and religiously than the last two occupants of the throne - no comparison is warranted.

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 32):
A picture of the usual clowns talking about the Northern Territories, so what ?

If you haven't lived here in the last several years, you are probably unaware of the resurgence in right wing groups that has accompanied North Korean aggression.
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Zentraedi
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:31 am



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):

That wasn't the argument - go back to my first couple of posts regarding his unwillingness to assist scholars trying to provide a proper accounting of those years. Not to mention total silence when nationalists have attacked some of those same people. The people who revere the throne and act criminally in its name should be condemned for their actions by same.

Come on, he, we and everyone else know that the emperor is just a puppet whose affairs are tightly controlled. You should probably be directing more energy towards those pulling the strings at the 宮内庁 (Kunaicho).

Why be so upset with a hanko for being a hanko?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):

Those symbols have far greater meaning both historically and religiously than the last two occupants of the throne - no comparison is warranted.

I'd say you're conflating the occupant with the throne itself. Now, was the President involved in a personal visit or official state visit? If it's the latter, the Emperor is the equivalent/embodiment of the Seal.
 
MUWarriors
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:40 am

What I don't understand is why Republicans are making a huge deal of this, despite the fact that Bush Sr. bowed to Hirohito's casket, which was also described as a "deep bow": http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...1/17/presidential-bows-revisited/.
 
D L X
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:54 am



Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 37):
What I don't understand is why Republicans are making a huge deal of this

I'll tell you exactly why: it's the same reason why the usual suspects here get all in a tizzy over the same kinds of crap: the way to beat Obama's message of bipartisanship and an end to bickering is to bicker louder than ever, and ridicule every issue on every day in as most a partisan way as possible. If there is as much discord as ever, then Obama has failed at ending the bickering, even though the fault would lie almost entirely on one side.

Alternatively, they're just sore freakin' losers.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:59 am

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 30):
Meeting the Japanese Emporer is tricky one, yes he has a very stained past but on the other hand he is an acknowledged leader of Japanese society and you can't just blow him of to satisfy Aaron747 and the goons at home.



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 34):
Really? Attributing the sins of the father to the son? Kind of a weak arguement, don't you think?

That wasn't the argument - go back to my first couple of posts regarding his unwillingness to assist scholars trying to provide a proper accounting of those years. Not to mention total silence when nationalists have attacked some of those same people. The people who revere the throne and act criminally in its name should be condemned for their actions by same.

Well, my maternal grandfather (died in WW2) was a member of the SS and possibly involved in war crimes (the crushing of the Warsaw ghetto uprising in 1943 for instance). I wanted to research his history by checking with the Germn federal archives, where all the still existing information about SS members is being held (e.g. their staff files), but my mother, while politically being on the left side of the political spectrum, is strictly against it. I think she is afraid to know more about him. She was a little child when he got killed in summer 1943 and remembers him as the caring daddy.
While rationally she knows that there was more behind him than this and that he had some dark sides, she wants to remember him as he was to her when she was a toddler.
I think you can´t be objective if your direct relatives are involved.

Jan

[Edited 2009-11-18 02:02:53]

[Edited 2009-11-18 02:03:26]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:47 pm



Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 37):
What I don't understand is why Republicans are making a huge deal of this, despite the fact that Bush Sr. bowed to Hirohito's casket, which was also described as a "deep bow":

It would help if you provided a photo instead of a description written by an obviously opinionated journalist.

Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
it's the same reason why the usual suspects here get all in a tizzy over the same kinds of crap: the way to beat Obama's message of bipartisanship and an end to bickering is to bicker louder than ever,

Obama's idea of bipartisanship is that we should all bend over and accept what HE wants. Doesn't sound very bipartisan to me.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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seb146
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:33 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Obama's idea of bipartisanship is that we should all bend over and accept what HE wants. Doesn't sound very bipartisan to me.

Yeah... and all those talking heads on the right are so accepting, right?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:59 pm

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Yeah... and all those talking heads on the right are so accepting, right?

Well, forgive me for having a brain and not believing that the way to bring out of control spending under control is to spend more.

[Edited 2009-11-18 09:11:55]
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
EA772LR
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:59 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 13):
I actually feel bad for the right-wing cheerleaders who don't understand any concept of diplomacy other than bomb the snot out of them.

And I actually feel bad for left wing-loons who think kissing our enemies asses in hopes they'll be nice to us is a proper concept of diplomacy. It got us far with Jimmy Carter didn't it? Or how about Clinton, lobbing a few BOMBS in Afghanistan to make it look like we did something about Osama Bin Laden? In Clinton's briefing with GWB, and his 14,000 word letter that presidents give to the next president, never did Clinton mention OBL...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Well, Bush Sr. did barf in the Emperor's lap... duck

How embarrassing that must have been for all who attended  covereyes 
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:44 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
Well, Bush Sr. did barf in the Emperor's lap...

Actually it was the Prime Minister - not the Emperor.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:21 pm



Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 31):

Acknowledged leader of society?? In my years here I've never seen the Imperial family doing *anything* to lead society other than appearing on television on national holidays while greeting adoring fans or otherwise presiding over some kind of flower arrangement contest. It's a complex issue to be sure but that's no excuse to overstate their importance, much less support the bald-faced lie that has been carried by American propaganda and Japanese mass communication the last five decades. I've been told as much in private by many locals but nobody will speak publicly against it for fear of becoming targets of these malcontents:

How is this any different than the British, Spanish, or Swedish monarchs? Are you anti-monarchist or is there something special about His Imperial Japanese Majesty that gets your goat?

As for the issue at hand: when the President of the U.S. goes to a foreign country and visits a monarch in the monarch's own palace, then it is appropriate that the President, as a visiting leader of a foreign nation, pay appropriate respect. If that means he's supposed to kneel and touch his head to the floor before talking to the king, then that is what he should do. After all, he's in THEIR country and in THEIR palace. When that monarch comes to the U.S. he should expect a polite and courteous reception, but not the same ritual.

The problem in this case is that someone in the administration screwed up. Either Obama got the wrong instructions or Obama didn't listen to the instructions.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:51 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
As for the issue at hand: when the President of the U.S. goes to a foreign country and visits a monarch in the monarch's own palace, then it is appropriate that the President, as a visiting leader of a foreign nation, pay appropriate respect. If that means he's supposed to kneel and touch his head to the floor before talking to the king, then that is what he should do. After all, he's in THEIR country and in THEIR palace. When that monarch comes to the U.S. he should expect a polite and courteous reception, but not the same ritual.

Nope. A head of state comes to another state as an equal, not as a superior, not as an inferior. Even in the old ages, when a king or emperor visited another one, there was a very strict protocol observed that neither was seen as being subordinate to the other one.
There was respect, but no grovelling.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Groveller-In-Chief?

Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:53 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
Are you anti-monarchist or is there something special about His Imperial Japanese Majesty that gets your goat?

I think I've made it pretty clear. Aside from the family connection to a local scholar who can't get his life's work published on his father, this Imperial stands for everything that is wrong. His father was given the name "enlightened peace" in Japanese posthumously, despite presiding over the worst destruction of humanity Asia has suffered in modern history. He won't pave the way to a proper accounting of those years, despite what is ostensibly a strong moral obligation to do so. He fails to recognize the benefits that would be brought to this country by doing that and acknowledging the culpability of his father, so that the deep wounds with neighboring countries can finally heal. All of these things are a game of connect-the-dots politically and socially.

The Japanese resent having to continually atone for the war in the eyes of Koreans and Chinese despite all their suffering in the period during and after the war. That's all well and good but the older generation in those countries resent having been occupied, maimed, and raped in the name of Imperial glory while the monarch got off scot free thereafter. The things I've suggested (by several Japanese commentators as well), are not that difficult for Akihito to do. They're the right thing to do. And he just won't do it.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 36):

Come on, he, we and everyone else know that the emperor is just a puppet whose affairs are tightly controlled.

That was less so in the war years, as countless diary entries by Kido and others attest. As for the contemporary state of the Kunaicho, there's nothing in their ability to stop the Emperor from saying what needs to be said on a hot mike.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

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