Lumberton
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:12 am

An opinion piece from Der Spiegel on the vote and unintended consequences. A little harsh....

Swiss Minaret Ban Reflects Fear of Islam, Not Real Problems

Quote:
The vote will undoubtedly change the image of Switzerland abroad. The country likes to present itself as a neutral guardian of human rights. It is the country where the Red Cross was established and the Geneva Convention was passed. But now the supposed model democracy has violated the human right of the freedom to practice one's religion and has discriminated against a group solely on the basis of their religion.

The ban will have serious consequences. It will not eliminate immigration-related problems in Switzerland, but it will produce major problems for Switzerland in its international relations. The Swiss banks and the Swiss economy, which have close ties with economies around the world, including in the Arab world, will suffer as a result. There may also be damage to the tourism industry.

The ban will damage Switzerland's credibility as a mediator in the eyes of Muslim countries, whether it be as a diplomatic representative of the US in Iran or in the conflict between Armenia and Turkey. And finally it will cause massive damage to the relationship between the Swiss and the Muslims living in the country, promoting exactly that isolation from the rest of society which the initiative was supposedly intended to address.


[Edited 2009-11-30 03:15:48]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
na
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:21 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Hmm, I guess racism doesn't allow people to use Google,

I´m married to a black woman who has a muslim mother. I doubt you have the right to call me racist because I think this step against a high-visibility and noise-making Islam symbol is right. Emigrants shall intergrate, not exclamate. Especially if it comes to very loud symbols shouting out "we´re different" or "we want to dominate you (by making noise)".

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
So, you too have no interest in secular society or separation of church and state?



Who said that? I meant a Europe based on Christian values, not ruled by the Church. Thats a difference. I´d never accept a religion to rule. I´m firmly supporting the separation of religion and state. One reason more to ban minarets in Europe.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:29 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 101):
An opinion piece from Der Spiegel on the vote and unintended consequences. A little harsh....

A little too harsh.. almost panicky, really. If the muslim world will get all up in arms because of this, burn effigees and threaten bombings... well then we'll know the the Swiss did the right thing.

If not, then all is good and this piece of local news won't even make a dent in media outside the Westernsphere.

Of course we might learn about some angry muslim mobs burning the Swiss flag sometime in april next year, when their imam finally uses this to distract his followers from how bad he blows. Much like the Danish cartoon debacle.

Oh how did that go, oh Spiegel, Spiegel on the wall: How is Denmark these days after incurring the wrath of the muslim horde? ... oh they're just fine. Go figure.

asturias
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ajd1992
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:33 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
So, you are against separation of church and state and for a state religion.

I don't believe in religion, so having a secular government wouldn't bother me. In fact, I'd rather live under a secular government.

I believe a government should be run by laws of common sense rather than religion - not wanting to start a flame war but look at the US and their laws. You can't buy alcohol on sundays in certain counties, the money still has "In God We Trust" etc, and personally the laws in the US are past stupid, made worse by their paranoia of everything. (Before anybody says, yes I have been to the US and have first hand experience).

Personally, I'd ban an official religion. I have no problem people practicing it, but when it comes to the rulers of the land, it should not be religion based.
 
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afterburner
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:48 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 100):
they invaded my country and occupied it for some time.

I will say the same to Spain if I'm a native American.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 100):
But Muslims were the invaders,

The period when Arab and Berbers invaded Iberian peninsula and spreading Islam is often called Islamic Conquest. Why don't people call the period when Spain invaded America and spreading Catholicism Catholic Conquest?


Edited: grammar

[Edited 2009-11-30 03:52:37 by afterburner]
 
David L
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:55 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 75):
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 3):
This either means people don't have the guts to express their opinion in public, or that I know an unrepresentative statistics sample of people.

I would wager it's both

I can't claim to be an expert on Switzerland but I have spent a couple of weeks visiting my brother there each year since 1990. In the last few years, a lot of his Swiss friends have been expressing a growing concern about the impact of immigrants.

Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 87):
I understand that, but there comes a point where enough is enough.

That's the impression I get. Although banning minarets might not have been the best choice, I suspect a lot of people just wanted to do something to preserve Switzerland's "Swissness".
 
ALexeu
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:57 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 101):
The Swiss banks and the Swiss economy, which have close ties with economies around the world, including in the Arab world, will suffer as a result. There may also be damage to the tourism industry.

Then Europeans should boycott UAE tourism and banking.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 99):

There absolutely no migration from those countries to the Kingdom, they are here temporary for jobs and they will go home at the end of there contracts.

You are right, they are temporary workers, but anyway they don´t can´t even practice their religion at home (private place).
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:57 am



Quoting Asturias (Reply 100):
the Reconquista formed my country and made it an Empire.

By invading other countries,hmmm.BTW what happened to this Empire?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 100):
The most important part was to wipe out the invaders.

Same as the Muslims did with the Crusade?
Now how about returning Septa and Melilah to Morocco? You did invade them,no?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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Asturias
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:00 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 105):
I will say the same to Spain if I'm a native American.

Good. Great, you do that! And why shouldn't you, Spain certainly conquered most of the Americas!

Quoting Afterburner (Reply 105):
The period when Arab and Berbers invaded Iberian peninsula and spreading Islam is often called Islamic Conquest. Why don't people call the period when Spain invaded America and spreading Catholicism Catholic Conquest?

The spreading of Islam was just called a callous invasion, which is what it was. Islamic conquest? Not heard that term.

Perhaps the books of Indonesia are a bit rosy colored?

Anyways, the conquest of the Americas is called just that. Conquest of the Americas. You can add all sorts of God into it, there was lots of God.

Though it kind of undermines your whole point that the muslim invasion was never called the Islamic Conquest. Though I can almost imagine some apologist scholar like Edward Said using such a phrase. But then. He was a loon, so ...

asturias
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:02 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 107):
but anyway they don´t can´t even practice their religion at home (private place).

Yes they can.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 107):
Then Europeans should boycott UAE tourism and banking.

Why the UAE?
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:08 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 109):
I can almost imagine some apologist scholar like Edward Said using such a phrase. But then. He was a loon, so ...

You and me will be lucky if we have 10% of Edward Said brains. Loon you said, wrong a very smart guy, met him in person and i was very impressed.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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afterburner
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:26 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 109):
Islamic conquest? Not heard that term.

You can see it in Wikipedia: Islamic Conquest.
Even you inadvertently agree with the idea that it was an Islamic invasion.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 100):
But Muslims were the invaders

 
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Asturias
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:30 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 115):
Even you inadvertently agree with the idea that it was an Islamic invasion.

No no, very advertently. Actually.

I completely know that there was an islamic invastion, all I said was that (and I quote myself) «Not heard that term.» (end quote)

..as in I don't remember hearing it called that. Clear now? Great.

You completely got me.. in something I already said but you didn't understand or read or something..

asturias
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N867DA
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:10 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 100):
Of course it warms my heart to read about the Reconquista. But Muslims were the invaders, so I don't feel sorry.. the Reconquista formed my country and made it an Empire. A side effect, yes. The most important part was to wipe out the invaders.

See, this is what I find absolutely disgusting. Cultural and religious imperialism seems to be acceptable as long as your culture is the one that is proliferating. asturias, if your country can invade 1.5 continents and permanently change its culture, you can damn well rest assured that the Middle East can do the same to yours.

Frankly, this is not much better than:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 81):
"Minarets are our bayonets. The domes are our helmets, the mosques our barracks and the believers our army."

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, 1997

A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:24 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 99):
There absolutely no migration from those countries to the Kingdom, they are here temporary for jobs and they will go home at the end of there contracts.

And that's exactly what should have happened in Europe then the mess that is excessive migration wouldn't be the problem that it it today.

I'm sorry but the vast majority of immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Sub Continent do not assimilate into the country they more to, they come to Europe, Australia, Canada, The US, New Zealand with all there baggage and want to continue the life that they led at home but in a new location and then they expect the host country to adopt to them. This is not me being xenophobic, it's just the way it is. I'm glade the some countries are starting to wake up and see what is going on and are starting to do something about it, the true nail in Europe's coffin with be Turkey's eventual entry to the E.U.

What I do find interesting is most of you who object to this new law in Switzerland do not even live in Europe. You're pontificating from the comfort of your home country and do not have to live with the problems excessive immigration has caused in Europe.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:33 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):
What I do find interesting is most of you who object to this new law in Switzerland do not even live in Europe. You're pontificating from the comfort of your home country and do not have to live with the problems excessive immigration has caused in Europe.

That might be true, but, they were allowed to migrate in the first place, they did have problems assimilating with the people of the new country,fine, some of them will refuse to change,ok, if there should be a referendum it should be about limiting migration to some or all Europe.
Still i can not find how banning minarets will help solve all those problems. Does a migrant decides to go to country A because it have minarets and not to Switzerland after the ban?

[Edited 2009-11-30 06:36:30]
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:47 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 117):
Hopefully this will be the catalyst, the start that pushes European governments in the right direction and will hopefully (in a few years) result in the stopping of immigration from undesirable uneducated useless people to Europe

Now how do they know the difference between undesirable, uneducated, useless people and the desirable? There religion? So we start discriminating against that religion? Are all the people from that religion bad? If they were not needed in the first place why did they allow them to come?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
N867DA
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:51 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):

I'm sorry but the vast majority of immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Sub Continent do not assimilate into the country they more to, they come to Europe, Australia, Canada, The US, New Zealand with all there baggage and want to continue the life that they led at home but in a new location and then they expect the host country to adopt to them.

I'm sorry, but as an immigrant to the US I find that your post is offensive, and though not blatantly xenophobic it comes close. What ''baggage''? Religion? Yeah, I'm sure all the Catholic churches I drive by were here about 400 years ago. Food? Mmmhmmm...Dominos has had 5-5-5 pizza since Pocahontas! A country's culture will necessarily change. I don't understand how someone from Europe, a continent that essentially colonized the entire world and changed the local culture--however little--everywhere they went can possibly be upset now that the shoe is on the other foot.

One final note: I shouldn't say this because I have never lived in Europe or Oceania but I feel the United States is much more tolerant of immigrants and makes assimilating much easier. We don't have the problems that other places seem to have, even though there are millions of recent immigrants.

If the Swiss people genuinely think this ban is in their interest, then more power to them. It's a little unfortunate that they think it is necessary, but it's just a sign of the times.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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afterburner
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:51 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):
I'm sorry but the vast majority of immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Sub Continent do not assimilate

People complain that a lot of immigrants don't assimilate. Can anybody tell me to what extent immigrants has to assimilate? Do they have to use local language even when they talk to their parents or siblings? Do they have to go to bars and drink like the locals? Do they have to wear skimpy clothes worn by the locals?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:56 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 117):
Now how do they know the difference between undesirable, uneducated, useless people and the desirable? There religion? So we start discriminating against that religion? Are all the people from that religion bad? If they were not needed in the first place why did they allow them to come?

Religions need not enter into it, but as a general rule of thumb a lot of the more useless and undesirable immigrants come from Somalia, Angola, Iraq and happen to be Muslim. Quite frankly I don't care what your religion is but if you are a useless flap of skin who is going to do noting with your life but sponge off the social welfare system of your new country then you are not welcome and should be shipped back to whence you came.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:02 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 120):
Religions need not enter into it, but as a general rule of thumb a lot of the more useless and undesirable immigrants come from Somalia, Angola, Iraq and happen to be Muslim. Quite frankly I don't care what your religion is but if you are a useless flap of skin who is going to do noting with your life but sponge off the social welfare system of your new country then you are not welcome and should be shipped back to whence you came.

Angola does not have a large Muslim community.
Now lets say i agree on the above i still can not see the relation between that and the ban on minarets.
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CPH-R
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:10 pm



Quoting Asturias (Reply 103):
How is Denmark these days after incurring the wrath of the muslim horde? ... oh they're just fine. Go figure.

Incidently, plans have just been aired for the building of a mosque in my hometown Roskilde, complete with dome and minarets Big grin

I personally wouldn't mind it, though I'm not exactly sure how popular an adhan would be. But then again, the cathedral is only a few hundres metres away, and it has been calling people to service for decades without anyone complaining..
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:11 pm



Quoting N867DA (Reply 118):
I'm sorry, but as an immigrant to the US I find that your post is offensive

I am immigrant to Norway, the difference between me and a lot of immigrant groups in Norway is that I fit in, I don't expect Norway to conform to my ideas, I look like a local, people only know I'm not when I speak, I am the right kind of immigrant, I got my first Norwegian job delivering papers 3 weeks after arriving, I could have gone to social welfare and received the dole but I didn't, I know have a very well paid job, I don't want anything from Norway, I don't use the social welfare system, I don't expect Norwegians to give me time off for New Zealand national holidays (the company I work for has several Muslims who want to have paid holiday leave for Muslim holy days yet still expect to get Christmas and Easter holidays). I don't abuse my position as an immigrant to get one over the locals.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 118):
I don't understand how someone from Europe, a continent that essentially colonized the entire world and changed the local culture--however little--everywhere they went can possibly be upset now that the shoe is on the other foot.

But I'm not from Europe, I can even see the changes in Europe from when I lived in the UK form 1996 to 1999, today it's not the same place, I feel a lot of what made Europe Europe has been torn away, it's lost is sense of European-ism, that intangible thing that made Europe what it was. I don't really care what happened during the colonisation rush that happened hundreds of years ago, that's past history, I didn't live back then, I live now, here, today.
 
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:14 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 121):
Now lets say i agree on the above i still can not see the relation between that and the ban on minarets.

You have to start somewhere, although France made the first move with the headscarf ban, Switzerland followed it up with minarets ....................
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:34 pm



Quoting N867DA (Reply 118):
even though there are millions of recent immigrants.

That is because the US is nothing but immigrants, so it is difficult not to assimilate.

Europe is not comparable as there is already a native population.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:05 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 119):
People complain that a lot of immigrants don't assimilate. Can anybody tell me to what extent immigrants has to assimilate? Do they have to use local language even when they talk to their parents or siblings? Do they have to go to bars and drink like the locals? Do they have to wear skimpy clothes worn by the locals?

I like this meaning of assimilation

Immigrant assimilation is a complex process in which an immigrant fully integrates themselves into a new country. Social scientists rely on four primary benchmarks to assess immigrant assimilation: socioeconomic status, geographic distribution, second language attainment, and intermarriage

They don't have to do any of the things you mention but if the girls are hot then yes I am all for them wearing skimpy clothes, the burka, chadri, chador, abaya or any other head and face covering clothing muslim women wear should be kept in the privacy of there bedrooms for only their husbands to see  Smile

No they don't need to speak the language of their adopted country in the home, I speak English to my children, having another lanuage is important.
 
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afterburner
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:21 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 124):
You have to start somewhere

What do you have to start? Start the "purification" of Europe?  

Edited: smiley

[Edited 2009-11-30 08:44:53 by afterburner]
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:25 pm

Some posters stated they hated hearing church bells in the morning. Well I'm pretty darn sure most of the churches were built way before your homes were built. Sort of like the NIMBYs who move to near an airport then complain about the noise. If you don't want to hear church bells then move!

The Swiss ban is unfortunate.....not all church towers are works of art or aesthetically pleasing either. Its just a tower afterall.

A note to all the "that's what democracy is all about" crowd. Hitler was legally elected too. Also to all the religion is private crowd....remember that next time you don't have to work on a religious holiday, e.g. Christams, All Saints, Good Friday, Easter Monday, Ascension, etc. Afterall religion should be private, why should employers have to pay you for not working?
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PanHAM
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:44 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 119):
Do they have to use local language even when they talk to their parents or siblings?

Language is the key to success. We have a lot of successful immigrants who speak flawless German, sometimes even the local dialect from where they live, and that usually comes only when parents make it a strict rule to speak the local language at home as well.

Nobody has to wear skimpy clothing, but it is a funny sight actually, when a man walks with his wife in hot summer, and the wife wears a long overcoat, skirt and trousers a tight head scarf and the man walks around in shorts and loose shirt.

In a perfect world, minaretts would be allowed in Switzerland as well as churches in Saudi Arabia and people could wear what they want, but then, a mini-skirt must be en vogue in Riyadh as well. --Or and other Muslim country, I am not picking on the KSA here.

Just to mention a few items
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Kiwirob
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:47 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 128):
What do you have to start? Start the "purification" of Europe?

I think immigration should be stopped until the current immigrants have settled and assimilated to the European way of life, after isn't that why they decided to move in the first place.
 
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afterburner
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:14 pm



Quoting PanHAM (Reply 130):
Language is the key to success.

I know. That's why my wife and I send our kids to a bilingual (English and Indonesian) school. We even like our kids to be able to speak another foreign language.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 130):
We have a lot of successful immigrants who speak flawless German, sometimes even the local dialect from where they live, and that usually comes only when parents make it a strict rule to speak the local language at home as well.

Kids learn languages faster than adults. Immigrant parents don't have to force their kids to speak in local language at home. The kids learn the language in school and while interacting with their friends. They will eventually use the local language to talk to their parents. I have an example. I have an Indonesian couple friends who live in England with their kids. They don't force their kids to speak English at home. However, eventually the kids have lost their ability to speak Indonesian and only speak English to their parents.
 
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afterburner
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:18 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 131):
I think immigration should be stopped until the current immigrants have settled and assimilated to the European way of life, after isn't that why they decided to move in the first place.

Does this include immigrants from countries like Australia, New Zealand, United States, and Canada?
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:37 pm

What is the percentage of Muslims among the population in the whole of Switzerland? Does the country have a relatively large Muslim community? I suspect not.

I don't see why they should have built minarets on the Mosques in Switzerland if the Muslim population does not have a large enough percentage. It is not a matter of discrimination, it is just a matter of logic.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:38 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 132):
Does this include immigrants from countries like Australia, New Zealand, United States, and Canada?

Yes it would, the only exceptions I would allow would be family reunifications, although that would not include fathers marrying there daughters like the immigration fraud which was exposed in the UK last week.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:41 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 132):
Kids learn languages faster than adults. Immigrant parents don't have to force their kids to speak in local language at home. The kids learn the language in school and while interacting with their friends. The

That's always the case. An expat collegue who was in Nigeria for some time, his little son played with the servants kids and learned the local dialect just like that.

What you say is alright when the parents are educated themselves. Unfortunately, that's not the regular case in Europe and then we have young people who cannot speak German properly and their mother's tongue neither. When you meet them at night in the subway and they tell you "I make you knife" you better know what that means. The flip side, these kids will always be welfare recipients and produce new welfare recipients.

All this leads to a certain build up of fear and then no one should be surprised when a referendum has this result. It is up to the educated muslim community in Europe, to remind the uneducated, that religion is not predominant in these parts of the world and that they should not be insulted when the locals make that clear to them. One way or the other,




.
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:41 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 133):
What is the percentage of Muslims among the population in the whole of Switzerland? Does the country have a relatively large Muslim community? I suspect not.

I don't see why they should have built minarets on the Mosques in Switzerland if the Muslim population does not have a large enough percentage. It is not a matter of discrimination, it is just a matter of logic.

The country's only about 4 percent Muslim. But then again, suppose only 4 percent of Swiss residents want to paint their house pink. Should they pass a constitutional amendment forbidding that?
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:50 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 123):
I am immigrant to Norway, the difference between me and a lot of immigrant groups in Norway is that I fit in, I don't expect Norway to conform to my ideas, I look like a local, people only know I'm not when I speak, I am the right kind of immigrant

Seems some people can fit in but they do feel that they don't belong there. Like wearing different cloth, speaking another language or even still posting under another flag.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
MUWarriors
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:02 pm

For those who complain about the language barrier, as a general rule of thumb, first generation immigrants are unlikely to speak the native language all that well, simply because they were too old when they moved to the country to learn it. My father-in-law came to the U.S. from Iran in the '60's and to this day has a hard time speaking English, and is clearly more comfortable when he gets to interact in Farsi, which since he lives in L.A. he gets to do frequently. He settled in L.A. because of the Persian community there, but his family has branched out, and are all native English speakers, including my wife who is a political science professor on American Institutions, and loves the government and way this country works. Also, my father-in-law is a PhD in Bio-Chemistry, and an extraordinarily smart man, he was just too old to learn English in anything more than a basic level.

As to Switzerland, I find this whole thing extremely offensive, not only because they have decided to single out one group of people (it's not racism per se, but is the exact same concept of our heritage is better than yours, so accept ours and move on), but the propaganda used to get it passed.
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A Muslim woman, with Minarets that are designed to look like missiles covering the Swiss flag. This looks strikingly similar to some Nazi propaganda. In fact here is a sinister faced Jew, with a burning nation under him, since in this moment he is the cause of all that is evil:
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I am not saying the Swiss are Nazis or similar in any way shape of form, and I definitely hate that I am playing "the Nazi card," but to me the similarities in propaganda are strking and why I find it so offensive. Granted I don't know what I expected considering this proposal was launched by the same wonderful party who gave us this image for kin liability laws:
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TSS
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:10 pm



Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 138):
Granted I don't know what I expected considering this proposal was launched by the same wonderful party who gave us this image for kin liability laws:

What are the "kin liability laws"? I've never heard of them before.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:18 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 133):
I don't see why they should have built minarets on the Mosques in Switzerland if the Muslim population does not have a large enough percentage. It is not a matter of discrimination, it is just a matter of logic

Minarets are just a symbol, exactly like the bell tower in a church. With what legislation that already exist in Switzerland they can not be used to call for prayer by the muezzin. They do not have to be huge, just few meters on top of a mosque. It is not worst all this circus about baning them and i hope the Muslims do not react as they did with Norway cartoons.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:02 pm



Quoting Afterburner (Reply 119):
Do they have to go to bars and drink like the locals? Do they have to wear skimpy clothes worn by the locals?

The question stands differently: If things such as those you mention are so much against your values and beliefs so much... if you can't stand your kids having a coed swim classes, your daughters going out dressed like the locals, then why not stay where you are or choose a different place to immigrate to?
 
slider
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:09 pm



Quoting AviationMaster (Reply 4):
IMO, Swiss voters just showed some balls today. They said what other's wouldn't have dared to mention in other countries out of fear to being labled a "racist" or whatever term opponents come up with these days. Will the country be in the global spotlight due to this issue? Perhaps in the short term, but in the long run, absolutely not. In a six months time, no one will be talking about the result of today's vote.

in the end today's decision just fortifies the message, that if you come to this country, you will have to adapt and not the other way around. Tolerence can only go so far. Don't like it, get out!

Damn straight…you can preserve your own culture but not at the expense of others.

Quoting RootsAir (Reply 10):
Today I am ashamed of being Swiss.

You’re free to turn in your passport and denounce your citizenship if you choose. Because you are Swiss. If that’s the case, then preserve your own country from being overrun.

Quoting Squared (Reply 14):
Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that referenda are held on issues that affect minority rights?

The tyranny of the majority, how sad, and scary, it is.

There is a soft tyranny of the minority as well. Where the term ‘equal rights’ is actually ‘preferential treatment’ in today’s parlance.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 33):
This is NOT xenophobia, it's about the willingness of people to integrate themselves and become people who make a positive difference. We cannot accept people who continue to disrespect our laws, traditions and don't even learn the language of the country they live in, because freedom of religion does not mean that they can do whatever the hell they want in our country, while honest citizens (regardless of culture and religion) get punished for the same things.

///stands and applauds

Well said! I for one am elated that some Europeans aren’t dead to this concept. There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your way of life. When Westerners do it though, we’re told we’re racists and bigots. When Muslims and racial minorities do it, they’re emboldened for just wanting to keep their way of life. Whatever.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:38 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 72):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):
Kansas is a state in the US, this was a Democratic vote of an entire nation, quite a difference.

No difference at all. Both are voting on something that they have jurisdiction over.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 82):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 58):

Kansas is a state in the US, this was a Democratic vote of an entire nation, quite a difference.

It isn't different at all. Read Mir's post.

I did read both, this once again was a NATIONAL issue and vote, not a regional or statewise one. I am sorry, but there is a big difference.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:45 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 141):
your daughters going out dressed like the locals

You can call me whatever you like but i will not allow my daughter to dress like a slut. Some of the clothing out there are not suitable for self respecting people. Does my daughter have to show large part of her butt so i am called open munded. Hell no.

Quoting Slider (Reply 142):

Well said! I for one am elated that some Europeans aren't dead to this concept. There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your way of life. When Westerners do it though, we're told we're racists and bigots. When Muslims and racial minorities do it, they're emboldened for just wanting to keep their way of life. Whatever.

Nobody asked the Swiss to change there way of life. How does adding a minaret change the Swiss way of life?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
Springbok747
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:04 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):
I'm sorry but the vast majority of immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Sub Continent do not assimilate into the country they more to,

 redflag 

Not true. I used to work at the international office at our Uni and have come across many students from Europe (Norway, Sweden, Eastern Europe) who've had a tough time 'assimilating' into Oz society. I've also come across many immigrants from the Middle East, Africa and the Subcontinent who've had no problems and are doing very well. You simply cannot generalize like that...BTW I'm also an immigrant to this country from the sub continent and I think my family has 'assimilated' well with this society in the 22 years we've been here.
אני תומך בישראל
 
Superfly
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:24 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 142):
When Muslims and racial minorities do it,

Please don't lump Muslims in with the rest of racial minorities.
The immigrants from China, Ghana, Trinidad and India aren't carrying out honor killings, begging for Sharia law and other horrific acts accepted by today's Muslims.

Quoting Slider (Reply 142):
When Westerners do it though, we’re told we’re racists and bigots.

Apparently your knowledge is just as limited as the weak-kneed left-wing apologist. Muslim is NOT a race, it's a religion.
Understand the difference?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):
I'm sorry but the vast majority of immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Sub Continent do not assimilate into the country they more to,

Wow, surprised to hear you make such an uninformed statement.
Are you saying all of those Indian doctors, engineers and computer programmers don't assimilate well? Their employers, neighbors and patients would strongly disagree.
Also, Nigerian immigrants here in the US are the most educated people in the country.
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slider
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:48 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 144):
Nobody asked the Swiss to change there way of life. How does adding a minaret change the Swiss way of life?

In and of itself, it doesn’t. If hearing a call for prayers going up doesn’t constitute noise pollution. No one’s banning mosques, are they? It’s more a zoning issue than anything based on what I’m reading (see links below).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 146):
Please don't lump Muslims in with the rest of racial minorities.
The immigrants from China, Ghana, Trinidad and India aren't carrying out honor killings, begging for Sharia law and other horrific acts accepted by today's Muslims.

I concur Supe—wasn’t trying to make that correlation. But there are other minorities who don’t assimilate well into Western cultures, whether it’s for cultural or religious reasons.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 146):
Apparently your knowledge is just as limited as the weak-kneed left-wing apologist. Muslim is NOT a race, it's a religion.
Understand the difference?

Again, I wasn’t intending to make a huge difference between. Whether it’s by race, religion, culture, whatever, my point stands: that our own unique American culture (and in this context, the very independent Swiss culture) is something we and they want to protect. When you start to whittle away at that, no matter who has the chisel, you begin to destroy that culture.

And yes, Islam is a religion, not Muslim actually.  Wink

But even then, that’s a limiting definition—it is not just a religion, it’s a way of life that covers social, political, religious and cultural realms. It’s the failing of the West to acknowledge this that’s led us to such problems.

****
Some commentary from a few sources and some different takes included.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...48703939404574565674154159110.html

http://pryce-jones.nationalreview.co...ZmZjc2YzBhMDAzZWZhZmJmZTk4ZTZjZjU=

http://corner.nationalreview.com/pos...k5NWU5NzBhNWU3YmVhMDNjMjBkOTllNjQ=
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:52 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 145):
Not true. I used to work at the international office at our Uni and have come across many students from Europe (Norway, Sweden, Eastern Europe) who've had a tough time 'assimilating' into Oz society.

Ok that might be but you're comparing students who live there temporarily with your familywho has settled there permanently. Not a fair comparison I think.

Oh and btw, I dont think I had any problem blending in to Canadian culture while I lived there as a student.

[Edited 2009-11-30 14:00:41]
 
Superfly
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:55 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 147):
I concur Supe—wasn’t trying to make that correlation.
Again, I wasn’t intending to make a huge difference between. Whether it’s by race, religion, culture, whatever, my point stands:

OK, you're off the hook this time.  Smile
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DocLightning
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RE: Switzerland Votes On Muslim Minaret Ban

Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting MUWarriors (Reply 138):
A Muslim woman, with Minarets that are designed to look like missiles covering the Swiss flag. This looks strikingly similar to some Nazi propaganda.

I agree. And I am very careful about my comparisons to Nazis. When I make such a comparison, I darned well mean it.

And that scares the daylights out of me.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 130):

I think immigration should be stopped until the current immigrants have settled and assimilated to the European way of life, after isn't that why they decided to move in the first place.

It's just that it seems an odd sentiment to hear from a Kiwi. I wonder how the Maori would view the Europeans who invaded their country and didn't assimilate.

And yes, I'm American. I freely admit that Europeans invaded the Americas and didn't assimilate. But I don't share the sentiment that immigration should be stopped until everyone assimilates.

How do you define "assimilate"?
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