texan
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A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:07 pm

Dear airliners.net friends,

Proper grammar and spelling make our posts readable and our arguments persuasive. Poor grammar and spelling make our arguments and posts weaker. To help increase the level of our discourse, I want to point out some common errors I found in a recent thread, along with solutions to those problems. Identifying information has been removed from the quotes.

I have also attached a short grammar and word use guide called "Texan's Guide to Proper Grammar and Word Use" if anybody is interested. It is just two pages highlighting some common mistakes. I also highly recommend the book On Writing Well by William K. Zinsser. Also keep a dictionary and a thesaurus around.

I realize many of you will probably hate this or think I am being too picky. But all I am really doing is asking for everybody to take a few extra seconds or minutes to re-read and clean-up their posts. If we clean up our writing, then our discussions will improve dramatically. We will have less misunderstandings and more civil discussions.

Even if nobody uses this information while posting here, perhaps some of you will find it helpful in business, professional, and scholarly writing. Remember that your only contact with many people will be through your writing. If you write well, you are more likely to convince them that you are credible. And that they should do what you ask.

Big version: Width: 612 Height: 792 File size: 157kb

Big version: Width: 612 Height: 792 File size: 107kb


Quote:
I would of slammed the door

I doubt it. You would have slammed the door.

Quote:
And lets try to re-frame from calling [a person]

Instead, let us refrain from calling somebody and re-frame the picture.

Quote:
sounds like a great add

What are you adding it to? It sounds like a great ad.

Quote:
the system cant be perfect

But our grammar can be. Apostrophe in can't.

Quote:
Those are THE worse [people]

Are you sure they are not the worst? Or are those people worse than some but better than others?

Quote:
surrounding them entering your home without either a)your permission nor b)probable cause to believe a felony was in progress.

Either and or go together, either and nor do not.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Airstud
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:27 pm

I have been a spelling and grammar stickler for most of my life and your post is preaching to the choir (as long as it's (not its) just me who's (not whose) reading it anyway).

But this is an Internet discussion board, where lots (not lot's) of people come to unwind and shmooze about planes and travel and hot bods they'd like to hit, etc. Spelling and grammar rules should be enforced in English class and in professional writers' and journalists' workplaces. I'm starting to think it shouldn't be enforced in casual Internet forums - even if for no other reason than that attaining grammatical perfection therein is a thoroughly quixotic quest.

Also bear in mind this is a multinational community, many of whose participants' native language isn't English. Whenever I find myself cringing at a non-native English speaker's grammar, I remind myself of this. If, for example, the person is from Vietnam and they're getting their point across in English, however imperfectly, I ask myself how well I'd be able to get the same point across in Vietnamese. (Or Cantonese, or Hindi, etc...) Then I find myself less inclined to do battle over things like this.
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dc9northwest
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:27 pm

I don't get it.

Are you saying there are not enough colloquialisms in writing? Why put prepositions at the end of a sentence? Everyone does it, but it is not right.

Is this a guide for proper writing or concise colloquial writing?

Your hints are entirely wrong for scholarly writing. If you want to use it on a.net, fine.
 
Airstud
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:34 pm

For what it's worth, Oxford University Press's style guide says it is acceptable to end sentences with prepositions.

Quoth Winston Churchill, "Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I shall not put."
Pancakes are delicious.
 
GAIsweetGAI
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:35 pm

Good post. Unfortunately, those it was written for probably won't be reading it...

I just disagree with the "And/or" suggestion - I would use "or" instead, as it means one, or the other, or both. Use "either...or" if you want an exclusive or.
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TheCol
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:41 pm



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):



Sorry, but you might as well bitch to a brick wall.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
petertenthije
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:43 pm



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
I have also attached a short grammar and word use guide called "Texan's Guide to Proper Grammar and Word Use" if anybody is interested

Even if nobody is interested, the guide will still be be attached. Instead, please say "in case anybody is interested".  Wink
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Mir
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:43 pm



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
I have also attached a short grammar and word use guide called "Texan's Guide to Proper Grammar and Word Use" if anybody is interested. It is just two pages highlighting some common mistakes.

There's a lot of things in there labeled as "unnecessary filler", which I tend to object to. Those things that you call "filler" can (and do) add variety to writing, making it less repetitive, and thus more interesting to read. Writers have their own voices and styles, and what words they use to describe certain things reflects that. To suggest that we should all use a certain more basic word to describe something might be appropriate in certain circumstances, such as business, academic or technical writing. But an internet forum is none of these; it is really a written conversation.

And in conversation, as I'm sure you've noticed, few people stick to exact conventions of grammar, and even fewer will attempt to tighten their language and use more concise words. It would sound very unnatural if they did. So as far as I'm concerned, as long as the spelling is correct, and the meaning is clear, I have no problem with some stylistic preferences that you would deem to be superfluous. It makes reading them more enjoyable. And at the end of the day, that's the whole point of this, isn't it?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
EIJFK
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:44 pm



Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 2):
Your hints are entirely wrong for scholarly writing.

I agree. I assume what he is trying to assist a.net users in writing more concisely. I'm as much a stickler for grammar as anyone, my last teaching position was third level English. However, this is a message board. Furthermore, there are people here from many walks of life and many language backgrounds, no uniform manner of writing will ever make a dent here. Frankly, I enjoy reading the different styles of writing here.
 
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OA412
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:53 pm

One thing that absolutely drives me crazy is people using the words there, their, and they're interchangeably as though they have the same meaning.

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
Quote:
I would of slammed the door

It amazes me that there are so many people out there who are unaware of the fact that should've, would've, and could've are contractions of should, would, and could with have. I see people increasingly writing them out as should of, would of, and could of. This is the most basic grammar that should have been learned in elementary school.

[Edited 2009-12-13 14:55:31]
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Jetsgo
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:02 pm

I can't stand when people say whilst. It just sounds so...stupid!  duck 
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comorin
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:20 pm

The way we go on and on about Obama and Palin can easily make us forget that this is an international forum. I, for one, am grateful that I can hear the voices of many around the globe who try their best to communicate in English. I would not want these posters to feel that their every word will be scrutinized.

As long as we can understand what someone is trying to say, it is good enough . I know many native English speakers also make errors, but let's be tolerant, and just reserve our ire for those that flame, abuse or post falsehoods.

Can you imagine Shakespeare using The Chicago Manual of Style to write 'Romeo And Juliet',
or apply Ronald Ridout's 'The Essence of Precis' to The Gettysburg Address?
 
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mbmbos
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:36 pm

Many of the perceived rules of grammar and word use are subjective. In many cases these subjective rules are a ways to reinforce economic and racial class/distinctions. Most linguists roll their eyes when they hear the average layman/laywoman complain about poor usage. They see grammar and word use in a very different context, one that takes into account an ever changing society and the language systems that change along with it. Linguists will argue there are some grammar and word battles that are worth having, but many that are brought up (preposition at the end of a sentence, for example) they argue are specious.

For more on the topic, here's Steven Pinker's article - "Grammar Puss" - on the subject.



http://camba.ucsd.edu/files/misc/ll/grammar_puss.html
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Stealthz
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:39 pm

How about folks just getting lose and loose or breaks and brakes right.

That would be major progress!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
comorin
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:51 am



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 13):
How about folks just getting lose and loose or breaks and brakes right.

hey, gimme a brake! Not that I plan to loose any sleep over it!!
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:10 am

We all make mistakes, but I agree with Texan's intention. We should make an effort to post entries that make sense. I try to be patient since English is not the primary language for a lot of a.net users, but running a spell-check every once in a while wouldn't hurt.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 3):
Quoth Winston Churchill,

What's a quoth?  Wink

Texan - you may want to correct the spelling in your guide. The word "rhythm" is only supposed to have one "y".

G
 
comorin
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:14 am



Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 15):
What's a quoth?

It's what talking ravens do.  Wink
 
vikkyvik
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:31 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):

There's a lot of things in there labeled as "unnecessary filler", which I tend to object to. Those things that you call "filler" can (and do) add variety to writing, making it less repetitive, and thus more interesting to read.

 checkmark 

Correct spelling and grammar is all well and good, but no need to suggest everyone use certain words and phrases in place of others.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 9):
One thing that absolutely drives me crazy is people using the words there, their, and they're interchangeably as though they have the same meaning.

 checkmark 

Another one that I see wayyyyy too often:

"Here, here!" instead of "hear, hear!"

My god. I couldn't even believe it when I saw that for the first time.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 16):
It's what talking ravens do.

 rotfl 
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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LTU932
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:38 am

I propose that the English language introduces Capitalisation Rules similar to those used in Germany. People should start learning to properly capitalise a Word they write, it just looks more proper. Big grin  duck 
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StarAC17
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:58 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
There's a lot of things in there labeled as "unnecessary filler", which I tend to object to. Those things that you call "filler" can (and do) add variety to writing, making it less repetitive, and thus more interesting to read.

I agree, and using Assistance as opposed to Help or "Do to the fact that" instead of Because doesn't necessarily make ones grammar worse because both words or statements have exactly the same meaning.

Bad spelling, internet slang, run on sentences, and improper quotation and comma use are more significant in making someone's grammar and writing style poor.

I reckon that those things make ones argument weaker not their word choices.
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czbbflier
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:59 am



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
I realize many of you will probably hate this or think I am being too picky.

Not at all. I sense your frustration. But as many have pointed out, a forum is about as informal as you can get, grammar-wise....

Quoting Comorin (Reply 11):
The way we go on and on about Obama and Palin can easily make us forget that this is an international forum.

 checkmark  It is great to have the difference- and it's laudable that non-english speakers bravely tackle the colloquial english of fluent speakers. However, often I wonder if it's not just plain laziness....

To wit:

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 13):
How about folks just getting lose and loose or breaks and brakes right.

 checkmark   checkmark  Don'tcha just hate it when you loose your pants because your belt is too lose? ARRRRGH!!!

Quoting Canuckpaxguy (Reply 15):
We all make mistakes, but I agree with Texan's intention. We should make an effort to post entries that make sense. I try to be patient since English is not the primary language for a lot of a.net users, but running a spell-check every once in a while wouldn't hurt.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  Those words that appear to be misspelled are underlined in my browser.... I merely right-click on them and correction suggestions pop up. It's not hard to do- or is mine the only browser that does that?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:05 am



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
"Texan's Guide to Proper Grammar and Word Use"

A.K.A.

 
Mir
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:22 am



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 12):
Many of the perceived rules of grammar and word use are subjective.

 checkmark  For example, I would have written the OP's first line as "Proper grammar and spelling makes[b/] our posts readable and our arguments persuasive. Poor grammar and spelling [b]makes our arguments and posts weaker." That's because I tend to refer to spelling and grammar as a singular unit in that sort of context. Doesn't mean that treating it as a plural is wrong - it's just subjective.

Also, some words in the list that don't match the meaning of the suggested replacement:

- "Too" does not mean the same thing as "very". When you use "too", you're implying that some limit has been exceeded, whereas "very" carries no such implication.

- "Not entitled to" and "couldn't" aren't interchangeable. "I was not entitled to upgrade on this flight" and "I couldn't upgrade on this flight" aren't the same - the first one is more complete, since it answers the question of why I couldn't upgrade, whereas the second one leaves that question unanswered.

- "Presently" and "soon" refer to different periods of time. Presently, UA has 787s on order. To say that soon UA will have 787s on order isn't correct - the order has already been placed.

- "Prioritize" and "rank" don't have the same meaning. If you rank something, all you're doing is putting them in an order. Prioritizing means that not only do you put them in an order, you're also using that order to do something with them.

- "Implement" and "do" aren't the same. I've heard of a lot of people implementing strategies. I've never heard of someone doing a strategy (if not implementing, it's normally carrying out, or putting into place).

- "She is my personal physician" and "she is my doctor" have different meanings. If you tell me you have a personal physician, I interpret it as you saying that that physician is dedicated solely to you, and has no other patients. That's not the same as having a doctor.

I could go on, but the point is that language, particularly in modern times, is an extremely nuanced thing, and trying to fit one word into the box of another is an easy way to confuse things. Rarely is a word made up just for the hell of it - normally it's because another word, while close, wasn't exactly what was needed. Keep that in mind when trying to simplify language - it's no use simplifying if the meaning is lost.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
TSS
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:18 am

I'll be the first to admit I'm guilty of quite a few of the grammatical transgressions that our Texan has been kind enough to compile for our perusal. The thing is, though, that I post on here in exactly the same way that I speak in real life... lack of concision and all. While this might make me sound like a stereotypical "old-school" Southern lawyer (or the cartoon character Foghorn Leghorn; I've been aptly compared to both), it is the way I speak. I do frequently edit my posts multiple times in an attempt to make them as clear and concise as possible before submitting them, but I have no desire to scrupulously eradicate any trace of my own personal manner of expressing myself in every single post.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 1):
Whenever I find myself cringing at a non-native English speaker's grammar, I remind myself of this. If, for example, the person is from Vietnam and they're getting their point across in English, however imperfectly, I ask myself how well I'd be able to get the same point across in Vietnamese. (Or Cantonese, or Hindi, etc...) Then I find myself less inclined to do battle over things like this.

My thought exactly!

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
There's a lot of things in there labeled as "unnecessary filler", which I tend to object to. Those things that you call "filler" can (and do) add variety to writing, making it less repetitive, and thus more interesting to read. Writers have their own voices and styles, and what words they use to describe certain things reflects that. To suggest that we should all use a certain more basic word to describe something might be appropriate in certain circumstances, such as business, academic or technical writing. But an internet forum is none of these; it is really a written conversation.

And in conversation, as I'm sure you've noticed, few people stick to exact conventions of grammar, and even fewer will attempt to tighten their language and use more concise words. It would sound very unnatural if they did. So as far as I'm concerned, as long as the spelling is correct, and the meaning is clear, I have no problem with some stylistic preferences that you would deem to be superfluous. It makes reading them more enjoyable. And at the end of the day, that's the whole point of this, isn't it?

Agreed.

Quoting EIJFK (Reply 8):
Frankly, I enjoy reading the different styles of writing here.

As do I.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 9):
One thing that absolutely drives me crazy is people using the words there, their, and they're interchangeably as though they have the same meaning.

That, and native English-speakers using "to", "too", and "two" interchangeably. Oops! I should have said "Anglophones" instead of "English-speakers" as that would have been more concise.  duck 

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 10):
I can't stand when people say whilst. It just sounds so...stupid!

Ehhh... it's a British thing. I'm sure one of our resident Brits will be happy to enumerate the things we Yanks say that sound "stupid". Big grin

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 13):
How about folks just getting lose and loose or breaks and brakes right.

That would be major progress!

It would indeed, but I'm not holding my breath whilst waiting for that to happen.  Wink
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n229nw
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:03 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):

There's a lot of things in there labeled as "unnecessary filler", which I tend to object to. Those things that you call "filler" can (and do) add variety to writing, making it less repetitive, and thus more interesting to read. Writers have their own voices and styles, and what words they use to describe certain things reflects that. To suggest that we should all use a certain more basic word to describe something might be appropriate in certain circumstances, such as business, academic or technical writing. But an internet forum is none of these; it is really a written conversation.

     

So well put, Mir. I agree with some of the things in Texan's list. But I dislike when people get hung up on a few silly "rules" of style they have as personal taste, and teach people to write less well because they have so many pet peeves about not using this word or that. It can make for some very bad and petty English teachers, the kind who say "NEVER use the the passive voice" or "NEVER use the word and at the start of a sentence" or "NEVER use emphatic italics" etc.

I have my own pet peeves of course. I cannot understand why anyone would use a word such as "utilization" when "use" works so well, unless they just want to sound pretentious. But like many of the things on that list, this is really a matter of taste. I personally prefer many of the expressions Texan likes less, and vice versa. Why go so far overboard in prescribing good writing? Why not instead give a general principle, such as "try to avoid unnecessary filler," and then allow some poetic license within that guideline?

Anyway, all that said, I'll add my own peeve to the list. A grammar mistake that really annoys me: when people use "I" when they should use "me"--as in "Here is a picture of my girlfriend and I." Would you say "a picture of I"? No. It is a picture of ME, so it is a picture of my girlfriend and ME.

The only reason this particular error annoys me is that it is an over-correction caused because some overzealous adult taught the perpetrator (as a kid) to say "I" whenever combining the pronoun with another pronoun or noun. But that overzealous adult just wanted to "sound educated" and actually didn't understand the difference between the subjective and objective cases...

EDIT: 2 of the most common spelling mistakes on A.net:

ISREAL. No, it is ISRAEL (NIKV69, I'm looking at you...    )
SPEACH. If you want to go on about freedom of SPEECH, you might as well spell it correctly.

[Edited 2009-12-13 20:09:49]
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czbbflier
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:44 am



Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
Do to the fact that

Don't you mean, "Due", not "Do"?  duck 

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
"Presently" and "soon" refer to different periods of time.

Actually, Oxford defines "presently" to be both "now" and "soon".... Source. It is a bit archaic and 'twee', but it is still used to mean "soon" in the UK.
 
DFW13L
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:57 pm

What a great post Texan!

I love grammar,and I'm glad you brought it up. Your point has been made. I don't think the various comments will define a position we should all take. But it's fun nevertheless.

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
I also highly recommend the book On Writing Well by William K. Zinsser.

My all-time favorite writing book! Back when I was in college and was wanting to be a professional writer I kept reading it over and over. I think I have three copies, including the 25th and 30th anniversary, and one other (from when I lost my copy and didn't have the patience to find it).

Thanks for bringing it up and helping to break the stereotype about us Texans and our edumication!

Matt
See, I knew American Eagle was first class all along!
 
cgnnrw
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:39 pm

I noticed my pet peeve was missing from the list....the misuse of "task". When I hear "I've been tasked to do a project" - I think 'what, you have a speech impediment and were ASKED to do a project???'

I will admit I still mix up its and it's. Also, since I've moved outside of the US my spelling has gone down the toilet. You wouldn't believe how often I stumble over the works restaurant and beuracracy.

More pet peeves: all the email "words" people use: c u, how r u, LOL, catch you l8er,
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janmnastami
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:55 pm

Considering that English is not my native language, I appreciate to be corrected when I write something wrong  Wink .
 
Mir
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:03 pm

Found this video, and it fits this thread quite well (warning: NSFW):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMf6hLfFkD0

Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 25):
Actually, Oxford defines "presently" to be both "now" and "soon".... Source. It is a bit archaic and 'twee', but it is still used to mean "soon" in the UK.

I'm aware of that, but it also does mean "now". So replacing it with "soon" doesn't always work. In fact, I'd venture to say that more often than not it doesn't work.

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 27):
You wouldn't believe how often I stumble over the works restaurant and beuracracy.

Do you mean "the words restaurant and bureaucracy"?  Wink

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
exFATboy
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:14 pm

I have to disagree with a lot of "Texas' Guide" - if we all used his suggestions for conciseness, everyone on the board would sound exactly the same. If we were pilots flying a plane, using a concise, consistent language might be desirable, but we're just sitting at our keyboards typing. We're not in a hurry here.

And a couple of the specific recommendations just don't make sense. For example, you can't replace "too" with "very", the two words don't mean the same thing. "Too" is a qualitative statement, "very" is just a statement of quantity. If the coffee is "very hot", it's just...well, very hot, but not necessarily too hot to drink right away. "Too hot" means just that, the temperature is unacceptably high to drink now, at least based on the personal standard of the speaker.

My personal pet peeves are more in the area of vocabulary, not grammar, particularly around the trend of making verbs into nouns. This always annoys me at this time of year, as some retailers insist on saying "gift" when they mean "give". You cannot "gift" someone, as "gift" is a noun. "Give" is the verb - you give a [/u]gift[/u].

Another one that kills me* is the use of the word "grow" in non-organic systems. You do not "grow" a business - growth is a result, not an action

The worst, of course, is using "action" itself as a verb. I used to occasionally get e-mails at my last job where I would be asked if I had "actioned" something. On a few occasions, after making sure I outranked, or was at least equal to, the sender, I'd fire back a message along the lines of "I can't do that, since that would require the word 'action' to be a verb, and it isn't. It's taken care of, though." This violence to the English language comes from too many people listening to too many blowhard consultants.

*metaphorically speaking, of course! Overused metaphors could be an entirely separate thread!
 
N1120A
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:22 pm



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
I also highly recommend the book On Writing Well by William K. Zinsser.

A wonderful book if you ask me. Unfortunately, so many people feel the need to make their writing unnecessarily fluffy.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 30):
My personal pet peeves are more in the area of vocabulary, not grammar, particularly around the trend of making verbs into nouns. This always annoys me at this time of year, as some retailers insist on saying "gift" when they mean "give". You cannot "gift" someone, as "gift" is a noun. "Give" is the verb - you give a [/u]gift[/u].

Actually, "to gift" is now accepted in the lexicon as a verb. Sort of like how Shakespeare took the word "drug" and made a verb out of it that we use all the time.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
StarAC17
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:32 am



Quoting Czbbflier (Reply 25):
Don't you mean, "Due", not "Do"? duck

You got me good, or is that well  duck 
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
baroque
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:23 am



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
Either and or go together, either and nor do not.

Oh me oh my how ambitious is this? Petert has a point

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 6):
Instead, please say "in case anybody is interested".

but I tend to side with the StealthZy one and hope for a lower incidence (you would like fewer I suppose) of the howlers and in some cases the totally bewildering. Just the use of the apparently dreaded "Check Spelling" would help. And yes this one has the same effect as fingernails on a blackboard.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 24):
ISREAL. No, it is ISRAEL (NIKV69, I'm looking at you...

But we should not have told him that because clearly his aim is usually to achieve the effect of f.....  Yeah sure
 
metroliner
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:47 am



Quoting TSS (Reply 23):
Quoting JetsGo (Reply 10):
I can't stand when people say whilst. It just sounds so...stupid!

Ehhh... it's a British thing. I'm sure one of our resident Brits will be happy to enumerate the things we Yanks say that sound "stupid".

As far as I know, whilst is a bit like 'an' and 'a'. You don't say 'a ant', but you say 'an ant'. Likewise, you use whilst where the following word begins with a vowel. However, this is a very informal and flexible rule, and people often start sentences with 'while I...', which is not wrong.

That's the beauty of the English language. It defies the rules of spelling and grammar. Your creativity is free to twist the language for the purposes of wit and emphasis, as in the Churchill quote above.

I do think the basics of the language should be used correctly, though, and I do get grumpy when I read through tons of posts in CivAv discussing 'bogeys' or 'boogies' - snot and grooves - when we are all talking about bogies. And of course, the endemic confusion of 'your' and 'you're' makes my teeth itch. Grr! I had to learn this pesky language by rote - go and learn it properly, you durn native speakers!  Wink

As an aside, I am always impressed by non-native forumites with flawless English writing.
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baroque
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:57 am



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 34):
As an aside, I am always impressed by non-native forumites with flawless English writing.

Yes always worth repeating, they do tend to shame us for a fair bit of the time.  ashamed 
 
Maverick623
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:14 am



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
perhaps some of you will find it helpful in business, professional, and scholarly writing. Remember that your only contact with many people will be through your writing. If you write well, you are more likely to convince them that you are credible. And that they should do what you ask.

What I find funny is that on just about every corporate memo we've received, the grammar is spot on. The right words in the right places..... but there's always a word misspelled! I mean, you take all that time just to make it sound good, but you can't freakin hit F7?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Rj111
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:50 am



Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
If you write well, you are more likely to convince them that you are credible. And that they should do what you ask.

Did you really need another sentence there?

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
I have also attached a short grammar and word use guide called "Texan's Guide to Proper Grammar and Word Use" if anybody is interested. It is just two pages highlighting some common mistakes. I also highly recommend the book On Writing Well by William K. Zinsser. Also keep a dictionary and a thesaurus around.

Too many alsos - I don´t like that passage.

Quoting Texan (Thread starter):
I realize

Realise.
 
metroliner
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:46 am



Quoting RJ111 (Reply 37):
Realise.

As an American, his spelling is correct.

We Brits should really start accepting AmEng as a variant... since it has been around for about 300 years!
Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
 
Klaus
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 am



Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 4):
I just disagree with the "And/or" suggestion - I would use "or" instead, as it means one, or the other, or both. Use "either...or" if you want an exclusive or.

It is not quite that simple. When I'm trying to get a precise point across, there are still differences:

and: primarily means both at the same time and just that

or: this is a tricky one, since it is colloquially used to mean one or the other or both (inclusive or) and in other contexts just one or the other but not both (exclusive or) ; Hence the frequent need to clarify which of the two is actually meant in a particular statement. That is why I do in fact use and/or to signify an inclusive or as opposed to an exclusive or which is usually understood as the default.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 9):
One thing that absolutely drives me crazy is people using the words there, their, and they're interchangeably as though they have the same meaning.

Indeed, that is quite like fingernails screeching on chalkboard.  yuck 

The thing is just that many native english speakers tend to confuse words which sound alike but don't spell identically and which have different meanings, especially when they don't write very frequently.

I think that is understandable, but I think everybody should be willing to improve for the other members' benefit.
 
iairallie
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 am

Get over it. Internet forums are a form of informal communication. Do you correct grammar mistakes in casual conversation?
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21485
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:16 am



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 40):
Get over it. Internet forums are a form of informal communication. Do you correct grammar mistakes in casual conversation?

One shouldn't be obsessive about other people's mistakes, but on the other hand it is rude to be and remain utterly careless about one's posts which the other members have to endure, don't you think?
 
metroliner
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:22 pm



Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 40):
Do you correct grammar mistakes in casual conversation?

I would, if it saves someone I care about looking like a remtard in the future for not knowing the difference between 'you're' and 'your', for example.
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baroque
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:38 pm



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 38):

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 37):
Realise.

As an American, his spelling is correct.

Some editor, so it was probably one from CSIRO, suggested using "z" wherever it was an option in order to even up the use on the "manual" typewriters and this save the keyboards. It was such a bizarre suggestion I thought it must have value. So we had lots of carbonization and similar terms.

And what does Check Spelling want for carbonization, why "canonization". Grrr. More finger nails on the blackboard.
 
Stealthz
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:47 pm

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 40):
Do you correct grammar mistakes in casual conversation?

Often feel like doing so.

One I can't correct, We have a newsreader here in Sydney, very pretty and easy on the eye but cannot get a sentence right. Punctuation and how to use it when reading either escapes her or whoever writes her copy.

Cheers

[Edited 2009-12-17 05:01:16]
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
baroque
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Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:55 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 44):
whoever rights her copy

OK, we did see it.  Big grin Relax.

Which one is it, so many possibles?
 
metroliner
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
Which one is it, so many possibles?

This is wrong - you need to rephrase this question without the comma and split the sentence:

"Which one is it? So many possibles!"

 Wink Big grin

Ahh pedantry... great for relieving work stress.
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Stealthz
Posts: 5555
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:03 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
OK, we did see it.

Oops... Damn spell checker, corrects the spelling but won't tell you the correct word!

Post corrected!

Cheers

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:22 pm



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 47):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
OK, we did see it.

Oops... Damn spell checker, corrects the spelling but won't tell you the correct word!

Post corrected!

And here was angelic little me who never ever had an ill thought assuming you were actually making a point. Which you did. I still think it might have been a double bluff, or was it a triple? With contra-rotation of course.

But which newsreader are you furious with? I need to know so I can be furious with the same one!!
 
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fxramper
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RE: A Suggestion For Grammar And Spelling

Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:23 pm

someone had too many grey goose rocks before they started this thread.  rotfl 

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