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SAS A340
Topic Author
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US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:22 pm

when is it enough?? time to pull the handbrake?
 alert   bomb 
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Klaus
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US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:31 pm

Nice!  mischievous 

However: It would be necessary to have a button for switching between nominal and inflation-adjusted numbers.

As long as there is any inflation at all, pretty much all of the nominal numbers will automatically increase just for that; The real changes can be a bit more difficult to differentiate without such an option.
 
TLG
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US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:58 pm

I'm looking forward to making the deficit a little higher when I get my tax refund!

-TLG
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:43 pm

Great! My debt as a non-income tax paying citizen is 39K. Fantastic!  Yeah sure

--Axel
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
Elite
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:02 am



Quoting SAS A340 (Thread starter):
time to pull the handbrake?

Pull the handbrake, President Obama!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDcc
 
san747
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:57 am

Wow... One full day into 2010 and we've already amassed a GDP of almost $37,000,000,000. Amazing.

And if you think this clock is scary, check out the world population clock-

http://math.berkeley.edu/~galen/popclk.html
Scotty doesn't know...
 
N104UA
Posts: 302
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:52 am



Quoting Elite (Reply 4):
Quoting SAS A340 (Thread starter):
time to pull the handbrake?

Pull the handbrake, President Obama!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDcc

One thing that is not counted in that video, is that we Bush would not have given taxcuts to the upper class, the surplus under Clinton would have continued and we would be almost budget neutral. also much of the money that Obama is 'spending' was approved and signed into law under Bush i.e. TARP and Obama is required to spend it and he can not give it back.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
usair320
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:26 am

We have a government that is out of hand. The American people have had their heads in the sand for too long now. I believe if we keep electing "mainstream" Republians (and I am registered Republican for primary voting purposes only) and Democrats we will continue to see an explosive deficit, an unsustainable national debt, an out of hand foreign policy, eroded civil liberties, an unconstitutionaly large government, and a dishonest dollar. I believe Americans need to realize what we have had since FDR has failed. It is time to get back to the origional intent of the founders and enforce the constitutional. The only difference beetween Bush and Obama, is that Obama's economic and fiscal policies are even more dangerous than Bush's (And Bush was among one of the worst presidents in history.) I may seem like I am ranting, but I think it's time for liberty minded patriots to come out of the closet and wrestle this country back from the leftist socialists and the neo"conservative" socialist-lites, both people that advocte un-american policies.
 
UAXDXer
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:27 am

The U.S. governement has managed to run the postal service, social security, medicare, fannie/freddy, and many other 'social' programs into the ground. Now they are only days away from getting their hands on all of health care. They are on the verge of 'regulating' us in to complete disaster!

That debt clock needs to be posted in every voting both around the country!
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
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fca767
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:44 am

What I don't understand is why the US government Put $2 Trillion into exploring Space...They could have used that...though that was about 2 years ago
 
N1120A
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:27 am



Quoting N104UA (Reply 6):

One thing that is not counted in that video, is that we Bush would not have given taxcuts to the upper class, the surplus under Clinton would have continued and we would be almost budget neutral. also much of the money that Obama is 'spending' was approved and signed into law under Bush i.e. TARP and Obama is required to spend it and he can not give it back.

Hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good fiction about "conservatism"  Wink
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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SAS A340
Topic Author
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:45 am

January 1. 12.153.........
January 2. 12.157......

Up 4 billion dollars since yesterday!!   
So what will the figures look like in the year end?   

[Edited 2010-01-02 02:47:23]
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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fca767
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:36 am



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 11):
Up 4 billion dollars since yesterday!!

LOL!
Why! Why! Can't we pretend it never happened?

Put the Clock to Zero...Now what do we need?

Ok some people haven't got jobs to buy food...right ok

House Builder has no job and therefore can't buy food
Farmer Needs house but has no money to build another because he can't sell his food

So Let's have the farmer do food for free to the builder so builder can build farmers house for free.

This is what the bare bones come down to

Nothing really has changed, the resources are still there.

Does anyone get me  Smile
 
TLG
Posts: 381
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:26 pm



Quoting San747 (Reply 5):
And if you think this clock is scary, check out the world population clock-

http://math.berkeley.edu/~galen/popclk.html

That's not hard to do: a number that counts a at preset rate, which is what I suspect the Debt Clock does too.

-TLG
 
Elite
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:39 pm



Quoting TLG (Reply 13):
That's not hard to do: a number that counts a at preset rate, which is what I suspect the Debt Clock does too.

Of course, that's the only possible way to calculate it; it's all based on the latest data and available models. Same goes for the civilian / military death for the two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:07 pm



Quoting N104UA (Reply 6):
One thing that is not counted in that video, is that we Bush would not have given taxcuts to the upper class, the surplus under Clinton would have continued and we would be almost budget neutral

Considerring that tax rates when Bush took office were at their highest rate since 1944, and we would have had a dead economy throughout the decade. Tax rates had to come down.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 6):
also much of the money that Obama is 'spending' was approved and signed into law under Bush i.e. TARP and Obama is required to spend it and he can not give it back.

TARP, yes. But the Stimulus bill, the 20% increases to all the government departments, etc, were all his doing.

And don't forget what Obama wants to do with the money that is being repaid from TARP. The law intended that it go back to the treasury, and he wants to turn it around and use it for other purposes.

Sorry, but all indications are that this administration has less fiscal discipline than any administration in history - and considering the poor standards of that group, it's saying a lot.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
dxing
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:46 pm



Quoting N104UA (Reply 6):
One thing that is not counted in that video, is that we Bush would not have given taxcuts to the upper class, the surplus under Clinton would have continued and we would be almost budget neutral. also much of the money that Obama is 'spending' was approved and signed into law under Bush i.e. TARP and Obama is required to spend it and he can not give it back.

I guess you have to explain how tax reciepts went "up" after the tax cuts were enacted then. As well as how a surplus would have continued with a recession and the aftermath of 9/11. That's the big problem with basing your budget and monetary policy on "future" projections instead of what has happened in the recent past. One of the reasons I'm leaning more and more towards Pawlenty as a Presidential Candidate.


President Obama is not mandated to spend any money appropriated by Congress. He can just let it sit if he wishes too. That's why he is the leader of the Executive Branch.

There are many different reasons for the debt continuing to climb and to reverse it would take substantial changes in everyones attitude towards government. Unfortunately we as a nation have grown way to fond of looking to the government to solve any and all of our problems by throwing money at that problem. Most people don't even understand where the governments money comes from and frankly don't care. It's going to take a government bankruptcy and then the hyper-inflation that inevitably follows as government tries to print it way out of that bankruptcy for most of our citizens to wake up and realize that government is not always the answer. We, as greedy citizens, are the seeds of our own destruction.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
fruitbat
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:51 pm



Quoting FCA767 (Reply 9):
What I don't understand is why the US government Put $2 Trillion into exploring Space...They could have used that...though that was about 2 years ago

Or maybe finish behaving like the world police and stop fighting expensive overseas wars - that'd save you some serious $$$

 duck 
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
 
AverageUser
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:05 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
There are many different reasons for the debt continuing to climb and to reverse it would take substantial changes in everyones attitude towards government.

If you paid all your public debt, how much private debt would there be left? What is the ratio of US public to US private debt?
 
dxing
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:06 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 18):
If you paid all your public debt, how much private debt would there be left? What is the ratio of US public to US private debt?

That would depend on the person. Some people have no debt. Others are neck deep. Don't quite see the correlation.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:22 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 19):
That would depend on the person. Some people have no debt. Others are neck deep. Don't quite see the correlation.

There is none. Private debt is forced to abide by economic law. Borrow too much and your cash flow goes negative, and you have eventual bankruptcy and you lose your assets. The government does not have that problem, which is why they feel they can be reckless.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
AverageUser
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:18 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 19):
That would depend on the person. Some people have no debt. Others are neck deep. Don't quite see the correlation.

Should we nonetheless think absurdly and equalize all the U.S. private debts as per capita, how many times would the private debts outnumber the public debts per person?
 
jetmatt777
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:49 pm

Yet the Enlightened One Obama said we should spend our way out of the recession. Sorry, but I am forced to say this: dumbass.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 9:57 pm



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 22):

Well, give it a chance to work.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:03 pm



Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 23):
Well, give it a chance to work.

I'm not sure how many chances we have at this. When has spending more money than you take in ever shrinked the debt?
 
N1120A
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:48 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):

TARP, yes. But the Stimulus bill, the 20% increases to all the government departments, etc, were all his doing.

Um, are you forgetting last year's "stimulus?"

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
And don't forget what Obama wants to do with the money that is being repaid from TARP. The law intended that it go back to the treasury, and he wants to turn it around and use it for other purposes.

Um, the money is going back to the treasury. If Obama wants to use the profits to shore up the budget in other areas, why the hell not?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Sorry, but all indications are that this administration has less fiscal discipline than any administration in history - and considering the poor standards of that group, it's saying a lot.

You are just making stuff up now.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:50 pm



Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 24):
I'm not sure how many chances we have at this. When has spending more money than you take in ever shrinked the debt?

But what if it is an investment that in the long run will help?
 
N104UA
Posts: 302
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:01 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
Hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good fiction about "conservatism"

Ya I try not to like Sen. Hatch's Quote last week when asked about voting for Medicare part D, and why not voting for Health Care Reform he said "Back then it was normal not to pay for things" so I take this as if I like it I will not pay for it, and if I don't I want it to be paid for.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Considerring that tax rates when Bush took office were at their highest rate since 1944, and we would have had a dead economy throughout the decade. Tax rates had to come down.

Yes they could have once the Debt was repaid and the Goverment could run at budget neutral, and now everyone across the board would be getting a tax cut.

Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
As well as how a surplus would have continued with a recession and the aftermath of 9/11.

Yes it would have, if we would have kept the tax rates up and if we would have been able to pay for the War in Iraq then maybe we would be almost budget neutral.

Quoting DXing (Reply 16):
President Obama is not mandated to spend any money appropriated by Congress. He can just let it sit if he wishes too. That's why he is the leader of the Executive Branch.

No he is required by the LAW to spend it
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:48 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 21):
Should we nonetheless think absurdly and equalize all the U.S. private debts as per capita,

Since the government debt is public debt that must be paid back by the public I still don't see your correlation to private debt for which only the individual who aquired it is responsible.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 27):
Yes it would have, if we would have kept the tax rates up and if we would have been able to pay for the War in Iraq then maybe we would be almost budget neutral.

If the tax rates had been kept up the recession would have been even worse since government only takes and redistributes, it does not produce. There are no government steel mills or machine shops churning out products for sale as an example. Also, as the current President is finding out the hard way, tax reciepts go down during a recession since there is correspondingly less business being done. So no, the supposed surplus would not have been realized even without the Iraq war.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 27):
No he is required by the LAW to spend it

If the law is written that way. The TARP fund and the stimulus bill are good examples. There is money left over in the TARP fund, the President wants to use it for the second stimulus but it will have to be re-appropriated by Congress for that. So it was not spent as there was no law that forced it to be spent. Same with the stimulus package. Much of that appropriation is still waiting to be spent and it is up to the administration to decide how it is spent as long as it follows the guidelines laid out in the legislation. Just because an agency of the government is budgeted for 100 million does not mean they have to spend 100 million. They'll do it though to avoid having a budget cut the next year which is a poor way to run a government.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:00 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 28):
Should we nonetheless think absurdly and equalize all the U.S. private debts as per capita,

Since the government debt is public debt that must be paid back by the public I still don't see your correlation to private debt for which only the individual who aquired it is responsible.

So there's practically no person who'd on have the individual level to pay back both the public and private debts? No correlation whatsoever between who has the two kinds of debts, and the private one is a weakling next to the huge public debt with the numbers all wrong?
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:25 pm

Bush runs up the deficit no one says anything.....Obama inherits a recession and how do you get out of a recession...if no one is spending or lending? Someone has to do it? That's where the government steps in....everything then will correct itself...
Our Returning Champion
 
Elite
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:35 pm



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 30):

There's no proof that the spending, or the "bailout" had any effect on helping America from recovering from the recession...
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4494
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:51 pm



Quoting Elite (Reply 31):
There's no proof that the spending, or the "bailout" had any effect on helping America from recovering from the recession...

 checkmark  It is the economy doing what it does best -- correcting itself and adjusting to current situations. It sounds bad, but the government needs to let it collapse and rebuild itself. They will find that this strategy will end up with the economy recovering itself before it collapses. But if the government keeps placing their filthy hands in the way, it will limit what the market can do on its own.

The stimulus hasn't even been spent yet, and the economy has recovered, or at least corrected and adjusted itself and can now recover.

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 30):
if no one is spending or lending?

Only 8% of that money was spent in the fiscal year of 2009. And a total of 41% will be spent over the next two fiscal years. Saying that this has improved the economy is nothing more than a load of BS. The market did that on its own.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:55 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 29):
So there's practically no person who'd on have the individual level to pay back both the public and private debts? No correlation whatsoever between who has the two kinds of debts, and the private one is a weakling next to the huge public debt with the numbers all wrong?

If you pay taxes, you're helping to pay back the public debt. If you own a company and you're company pays tax you're helping to pay back the public debt. The government will not help you pay back any debt you incur privately unless you are deemed "too big to fail" whatever that means.

So I still don't get what you are driving at. Personal debt is paid off by the individual or company. Public debt is paid off by the citizens and companies doing business in that country. I don't see what corelation you are tying to prove.

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 30):
Bush runs up the deficit no one says anything.....

I wouldn't say that.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Klaus
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:01 pm

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 32):
It is the economy doing what it does best -- correcting itself and adjusting to current situations. It sounds bad, but the government needs to let it collapse and rebuild itself.

While that might possibly satisfy die-hard ideologues (at least those who are well off enough to survive the ensuing collapse of the economy), it is not an option for most of the population.

It is one of the differences between anarchy and civilization. Unregulated capitalism devolves into anarchy and the rule of the fist – and it tends to be rather unstable on top of it all.

Sorry, but that extreme ideology has seen its time come and go again.

More differentiated ways to organize the economy are clearly necessary, even if they take a bit more effort to understand and organize than blind (and obviously unjustified) faith in the all-healing forces of the market.

[Edited 2010-01-03 10:02:28]
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:10 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
It is one of the differences between anarchy and civilization. Unregulated capitalism devolves into anarchy and the rule of the fist – and it tends to be rather unstable on top of it all.

Which is why we have regulations and when holes in that regulation are found they are fixed.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
Sorry, but that extreme ideology has seen its time come and go again.

Sorry, but any idealogy that puts the government before the people is not worth even trying.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:16 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 35):
Which is why we have regulations and when holes in that regulation are found they are fixed.

Ideally. Theoretically. If only.

Quoting DXing (Reply 35):
Sorry, but any idealogy that puts the government before the people is not worth even trying.

The government is supposed to be the regulatory expression of the collective will of the population. When it becomes primarily a puppet of corporate interest, on the other hand, things can get out of hand quickly and severely as we've seen.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:42 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
When it becomes primarily a puppet of corporate interest, on the other hand, things can get out of hand quickly and severely as we've seen.

The corporate world has no vote. It is up to the population to regulate their leaders and that, if anywhere, is this countries failing.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:27 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
The corporate world has no vote. It is up to the population to regulate their leaders and that, if anywhere, is this countries failing.

In the current US situation, most elected officials are so heavily dependent on corporate donations that the minute they're entering office their dependency on their donors often outweighs their commitment to their constituency.

Lobbyists have excessive influence in many countries, but not many developed countries are as extreme as the USA in that respect.

The current health reform debacle is a case in point. The current course primarily protects the excessive profits of the insurers against the interests of the (un)insured population.

If you see that as a sign of a healthy(!) democracy where politicians act in the electorate's interests, that would be a rather peculiar view.
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 9:58 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 37):
The corporate world has no vote.

No, that's why they have to hire policians to do the dirty bits for them, and pay huge ad campaigns to disinform and mislead voters. The U.S. health care "discussion" is a textbook case on this.
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:02 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):


In the current US situation, most elected officials are so heavily dependent on corporate donations that the minute they're entering office their dependency on their donors often outweighs their commitment to their constituency.

As has been demonstrated 2X in the past 15 years when the electorate percieves that to be the case, major changes in representation take place. Corporations hold no votes.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):
The current health reform debacle is a case in point. The current course primarily protects the excessive profits of the insurers against the interests of the (un)insured population.

As has been demonstrated in several threads health insurance companies make anything but "excessive" profits. The true profiteers, pharmacuticals, cut a deal with the in power party to protect their profits. That would be the party that claims to be looking to "protect" the people. Even with all that the majority of people polled still would rather have the system they have as opposed to any run soley by the government.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:34 pm



Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 30):
Bush runs up the deficit no one says anything

Hardly. A LOT was said. But Bush's deficits don't hold a candle to the current deficit spending, and they were bad enough.

Quoting ThegreatRDU (Reply 30):
Obama inherits a recession and how do you get out of a recession...if no one is spending or lending? Someone has to do it? That's where the government steps in....everything then will correct itself.

That's where your wishful thinking runs afoul of reality. The government does not create anything. All it can do is redistribute wealth from either one segment of society to another, or, as in the case with massive deficits, from the pockets of future taxpayers. Government stimulus spending does not correct anything, and makes only a marginal dent in an economic downturn. As an economist, I would argue that all the stimulus packages of the past year do as much damage to the economy as they provide any benefits.

In my opinion, we would have been out of the recession some time ago and the economy growing again vigorously if the government had decided not to bail out anyone and not do any stimulus, and promise a freeze on all taxes for the next 5 years. The pain would have been sharp but brief, and businesses would hire quickly.

The biggest problem right now is that businesses and persons with money have no desire to take any risks at this time because they know that taxes and employment costs are getting set to increase, by some unkown amount.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Carlisle
Posts: 217
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:35 pm

Just like the Energizer Bunny it keeps going and going and going.
"CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (Delta)
 
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SAS A340
Topic Author
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:56 pm



Quoting Carlisle (Reply 42):
Just like the Energizer Bunny it keeps going and going and going.

It's sure does.

Jan 1 = 12.153
Jan 2 = 12.157
Jan 8 = 12.288

That's 35 Billion dollars in a Week....that's Sweden's defense budget per year x 5 Big grin
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
Phoenix9
Posts: 2024
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:25 pm

RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:59 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 43):
That's 35 Billion dollars in a Week

The numbers you show, isn't that $ 135 billion?

The number I see right now is 12,286..... maybe it has to do something with the computer clock.  Confused

[Edited 2010-01-08 07:01:31]
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5536
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:09 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
In my opinion, we would have been out of the recession some time ago and the economy growing again vigorously if the government had decided not to bail out anyone and not do any stimulus, and promise a freeze on all taxes for the next 5 years.

But you ignore the fundamental reason why the economy ended up in a recession in the first place....people spending money they didn't have. Freezing tax rates isn't going to fix that.

You also ignore that the average consumer has benefited little from the tax cuts of the past 20+ years. Most consumers are worse off today even though they are paying lower tax rates as rising costs (education, energy, healthcare) and declining benefits have destroyed the extra cash. For much of the 90's and part of the 00's, this was masked by a stock market bubble predicated on huge amounts of consumer borrowing and a housing bubble.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
The biggest problem right now is that businesses and persons with money have no desire to take any risks at this time because they know that taxes and employment costs are getting set to increase

Businesses and persons with money aren't taking risks because consumers aren't buying and don't have the revenue to buy. Tax policy and employment costs are secondary at best.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:47 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 44):
The numbers you show, isn't that $ 135 billion?

You are absolutely right! to many digits for me  spin 

Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 44):
The number I see right now is 12,286..... maybe it has to do something with the computer clock

well,the link a provided in the first post says 12,288 but that's peanuts right?  Wink

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 43):
That's 35 Billion dollars in a Week....that's Sweden's defense budget per year x 5

Ignore this,since the correct nr are $ 135 Billion and that would cover Sweden's national dept.
( i know,Sweden is a very small country  wave  )
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
norcal
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:47 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 46):
i know,Sweden is a very small country

Small, but awesome!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 45):
Businesses and persons with money aren't taking risks because consumers aren't buying and don't have the revenue to buy. Tax policy and employment costs are secondary at best.

One of the most important components of creating an environment condusive to growth is predictability. If I know that tax rates will be X, and regulations are Y, and that my income will be Z for the next 5,10 whatever years, I can make decisions based on that knowledge. But if I know that the government is talking about increasing taxes, or if I don't know how much I will be earning, I will hold back, be more careful, and thus spend less. It's basic human self-preservation.

Put it this way. If there are rumors floating around your workplace that there might be a big wave of layoffs, do you go ahead and buy that new Escalade or remodel the kitchen? Or do you back off and avoid unnecessary expenditures?

I can tell you what I would do. My company is in the middle of a buyout, and I am spending absolutely no money apart from utilities, mortgage, and groceries (from the store-brand shelves), even though I am fairly confident that my job is probably safe. All my extra money is going towards paying down whatever debts I have and building some reserves. My cars are paid-for and I've put off my plans for upgrading my 8-year old Taurus and my wife's 7-year old Grand Caravan, which I could afford to do, but I don't want to add $1000 worth of car payments to my monthly budget with the risk of what might happen to my job.

[Edited 2010-01-08 15:03:05]
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RE: US Debt Clock....

Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:40 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):

While that might possibly satisfy die-hard ideologues (at least those who are well off enough to survive the ensuing collapse of the economy), it is not an option for most of the population.

Letting the market fall and rebuild itself is not an ideology, it is the most practical and painless way of dealing with the problem. What is ideology (and illogical) is believing in the printing presses and deep debt as the solution to too much debt.


Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):

It is one of the differences between anarchy and civilization. Unregulated capitalism devolves into anarchy and the rule of the fist – and it tends to be rather unstable on top of it all.

Funny, because that's exactly what regulation is. Rule of the fist.

Capitalism is civilization. Unregulated power (government) is the same as anarchy.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
More differentiated ways to organize the economy are clearly necessary, even if they take a bit more effort to understand and organize than blind (and obviously unjustified) faith in the all-healing forces of the market.

The only faith here is yours, in the "all-healing" powers of government.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat

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