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OA260
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Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:44 pm

Sky News reports that 7 dead , suspect now surrounded in woodland in Virginia by 100 cops.

More later .......
 
Springbok747
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:53 pm

The number of dead has not been confirmed yet. The cops say 'several dead'..

A spokeswoman could not say how many were dead or injured in the shootings or what sparked the violence.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0...nia-shooting-multipl_n_428818.html
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DocLightning
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:14 am

And before anyone argues that if the victims had been armed that it never would have happened, recall the recent shooting spree at a military base? *Many* of those folks were armed professional soldiers... and they died.
-Doc Lightning-

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SESGDL
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:22 am

Unfortunately this issue is irrelevant to the American public. The idea of being able to own a gun, or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged. Sad...

Jeremy
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:23 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 3):

Point understood, but we are comparing apples to oranges here - but in one of the greatest quotes I've ever heard (by my wife BTW) we are still talking about fruit. The point that the "gun controllers" are making is that this is a malicious act. 3, 4, 5, whatever amount of people that die in a car wreck is regretibly, an accident. Getting randomly taken out by a crazed lunatic is no accident and - to them - could have been prevented. The problem with that mentality is they just don't realize that, no matter how much control you put on guns, they are just like car thieves - if they want it bad enough, they'll get it.

And there lies the problem.
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Cadet57
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:29 am



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
Unfortunately this issue is irrelevant to the American public. The idea of being able to own a gun, or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged. Sad...

Do you honestly believe what you just typed?
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Aaron747
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:34 am



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
The idea of being able to own a gun, or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged.

Why do you put right in quotes when it is clearly enumerated in the Bill of Rights with case law to support it?

What does being able to own a gun have to do with the spate of mass shootings in the last year? Other than the actual weapon being used, which doesn't concern if they are obtained legally or otherwise, very little. The problem is the individuals who have the motive and gall to carry these acts out.
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Maverick623
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:38 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
*Many* of those folks were armed professional soldiers.

Thanks for the lies.

As you have clearly never been on a military base, or payed much attention if you were, most soldies don't carry sidearms or rifles when walking around on base.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
Unfortunately this issue is irrelevant to the American public.

Oh it's entirely relevant. 10 bucks says this guy shouldn't have had a gun in the first place.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
The idea of being able to own a gun, or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged.

If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
Sad.

Disturbing.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Derico
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:46 am

I hate to point this out, but about a week or two ago there was a shooting in a courthouse somewhere in the US, and before that I remember some huge shooting at a little community, and on and on and it was almost unheard of here in the forum.

I'm old enough to remember these stories were headlines all over the world, just 5 to 10 years ago, and the threads created here were very much followed. Now they may get only 5 to 10 responses.

Mass shootings and killlngs in the US are no longer news, everyone expects them. It's like reporting ond hooliganism in football stadiums in South America. What else is new?

(Interestingly though, violence in Argentine stadiums has decreased sharply in the last two years).
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ATTart
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:48 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
Oh it's entirely relevant. 10 bucks says this guy shouldn't have had a gun in the first place.

Agree with you on this!!!

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):

If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

I also agree with on this It's weird is it not?
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sasd209
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:17 am



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged. Sad...

As is the "right" to free speech and the "right" of assembly. Sad.  Yeah sure
 
lowrider
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:20 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
*Many* of those folks were armed professional soldiers... and they died

The only people armed in garrison are the MPs and people on a firing range. Much like some would have it in our larger cities.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged. Sad...

Curse that Bill of Rights, we must do away with that.
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KFLLCFII
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:21 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the article didn't make it clear where exactly the shooting took place...On public or private land, inside a building or facility, indoors or outdoors?
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mham001
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:25 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
And before anyone argues that if the victims had been armed that it never would have happened, recall the recent shooting spree at a military base? *Many* of those folks were armed professional soldiers... and they died.

False. Weapons are very tightly controlled on military bases. The only people with weapons are the police, unless special permission is given.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:25 am



Quoting KFLLCFII (Reply 12):


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the article didn't make it clear where exactly the shooting took place...On public or private land, inside a building or facility, indoors or outdoors?

Not clear, but it sounds like he killed his family (or another family) inside or adjacent to their home. Sad, sad day.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Falcon84
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:47 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
Unfortunately this issue is irrelevant to the American public. The idea of being able to own a gun, or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged. Sad...

Do you honestly believe what you just typed?

I would think he believes it. Not everyone thinks a Gun is a good thing, Cadet57. You may, but many don't. I think the love affair many have with firearms is a national disgrace, and makes us liook like barbarians.
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HOMER71
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:09 am

And for every mass shooting that occurs in this country, there are countless more instances where a law-abiding homeowner shoots and injures/kills a thug trying to break into their house.

For me, that totally justifies having the right to bear arms...so bitch and whine all you want Big grin
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Falcon84
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:15 am



Quoting Homer71 (Reply 16):
And for every mass shooting that occurs in this country, there are countless more instances where a law-abiding homeowner shoots and injures/kills a thug trying to break into their house.

A massively overblown statement. There are very few such instances ever reported. And they certainly don't balance out the thousands of deaths that are caused by killing with guns every year.

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 16):
For me, that totally justifies having the right to bear arms...so bitch and whine all you want

More's the pity.
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OA412
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:26 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
And before anyone argues that if the victims had been armed that it never would have happened, recall the recent shooting spree at a military base? *Many* of those folks were armed professional soldiers... and they died.

Amen Doc. This is not to mention the number of officers who have been killed in the line of duty. These are people for whom it is a job requirement to be armed and that fact didn't save their life.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
Unfortunately this issue is irrelevant to the American public. The idea of being able to own a gun, or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged. Sad...

 checkmark 

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

Care to explain why the US has more gun related deaths per year than any other Western Country? In fact, more gun deaths per year than many other Western country's combined. Our out of control gun culture wouldn't have anything to do with it would it? People in the EU and in Canada don't seem to have a problem with the government being the only one with guns, why should we?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
I think the love affair many have with firearms is a national disgrace, and makes us liook like barbarians.

 checkmark 
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dxing
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:42 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
And before anyone argues that if the victims had been armed that it never would have happened, recall the recent shooting spree at a military base? *Many* of those folks were armed professional soldiers... and they died.

Where in the world did you come up with that? Those people were processing to go overseas. There were not armed. Even when you see soldiers with their weapons marching around a domestic base you can pretty much be assured that the weapons are unloaded. As was stated above, unless they are are on the range most weapons remained unloaded for safety reasons.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 15):
Not everyone thinks a Gun is a good thing, Cadet57. You may, but many don't.

And when you have enough that don't you can get the Constitution changed. As with another instance, when you call those that believe in the 2nd amendment "barbarians" you can pretty much be gauranteed that your argument just got a lot tougher. I don't have any love affair with guns but I keep two in the house. A pistol for home defense and a .22 rifle that my Dad had. They come out twice a year to fired at the range, cleaned, and then put away. I hardly think that qualifies me as a "barbarian". Are the thousands and thousands of people that enjoy hunting as well as target shooting in this country "barbarians" as well?

Remind me how many people were killed by machete's in Rwanda?
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sv7887
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:44 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
A massively overblown statement. There are very few such instances ever reported. And they certainly don't balance out the thousands of deaths that are caused by killing with guns every year.

Ever bother to actually look at the numbers? What percentage of those gun deaths were due to LEGALLY owned arms?

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000

Notice who's number one...Yes District of Columbia which until DC vs Heller had a total gun ban...

And while on the topic DC Vs Heller affirmed the 2nd Amendment Right to arms.

Whether you like it or not that's the law of the land.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:03 am



Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 5):
Do you honestly believe what you just typed?

Why wouldn't he ?

Do you often write things you don't mean?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

Right. Gun's are dangerous things and should only be handled by trained professionals.

Your average Mr Jo Blow having a gum is a terrifying thought, especially if they haven't really any cause to have it.

I'd much prefer to have guns confined to just Government and criminals than every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying one, at least that way you narrow it down to only 2 groups.

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 16):
And for every mass shooting that occurs in this country, there are countless more instances where a law-abiding homeowner shoots and injures/kills a thug trying to break into their house.

Just how many instances are you talking about here, compered to all the mass shootings that have occurred ?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):

Care to explain why the US has more gun related deaths per year than any other Western Country? In fact, more gun deaths per year than many other Western country's combined. Our out of control gun culture wouldn't have anything to do with it would it? People in the EU and in Canada don't seem to have a problem with the government being the only one with guns, why should we?

Love to hear how he explains point !

Quoting DXing (Reply 19):
Remind me how many people were killed by machete's in Rwanda?

That's because there to poor and guns are not as available as in the US and other countries, if they had guns I'm more than sure they would use them
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Springbok747
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:26 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
Our out of control gun culture wouldn't have anything to do with it would it? People in the EU and in Canada don't seem to have a problem with the government being the only one with guns, why should we?

I know several people in Canada who have firearms. I don't think only the government has guns..even average people do.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Your average Mr Jo Blow having a gum is a terrifying thought, especially if they haven't really any cause to have it.



Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
I'd much prefer to have guns confined to just Government and criminals than every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying one, at least that way you narrow it down to only 2 groups.

 Yeah sure

What if those guns were stolen from the cops?

BTW..did you know there are close to 2.5 million firearms in Australia...?

According to recent firearms data from the AIC, there are currently about 2.5 million registered firearms in Australia belonging to 731 567 individual licence holders. This compares to nearly 2.2 million registered firearms and 764 518 licence holders in July 2001 (AIC, Trends & Issues in Crime and Criminal Justice No. 230: Firearms theft in Australia). In 2002–03 just under 41 000 legal firearms, including antique and military, were imported into Australia (for more detailed statistics of legal and illegal imports for 2000–03 see the answer to a Question on Notice from Senator Mark Bishop in March 2004).

Notice that the number of guns increased but the murder rate decreased and that the majority of these murders involved illegal weapons.

The latest Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 2006 from the AIC states that the percentage of homicides committed with a firearm continues a declining trend which began in 1969: ‘In 2003, fewer than 16 per cent of homicides involved firearms. The figure was similar in 2002 and 2001, down from a high of 44 per cent in 1968.’ The Homicide in Australia: 2005–2006 National Homicide Monitoring Program (NHMP) annual report points out that while the use of firearms to commit homicide had decreased over time, the use of handguns as a percentage of all firearm homicide has increased. In 1992–93, 17 per cent of firearm homicides were committed with a handgun, compared with 47 per cent in 2005–06.

Another consistent finding over the years is that the majority of firearms used in homicide were not registered, and the offenders who used them were not licensed.


http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/bn/2007-08/08bn01.htm
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TheCommodore
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:37 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 23):

What if those guns were stolen from the cops?

BTW..did you know there are close to 2.5 million firearms in Australia...?

We don't live in a perfect world and I suppose there are guns stolen from police. There has also been a number of cases where security guards delivering cash to teller machines and banks have also had the guns taken/stolen, unfortunately that is just a risk we have to take but you'd have to admit that its better than just being able to walk into a gun shop and buying one over the counter like i believe is the case in the US.

I wasn't aware of the exact figures in OZ. that's interesting though. As you will be aware we have had a few "gun buy back" periods that have been successful. I think then that we need to have a few more !!
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
dxing
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:37 am



Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
That's because there to poor and guns are not as available as in the US and other countries, if they had guns I'm more than sure they would use them

That's my point. If people want to kill, they will find a way to do it.
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Flighty
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:42 am

My very quotable mom says that men should get back to fistfighting. If you're really mad at someone, go ahead, hit them with your closed fist. Break a few knuckles. It's what real men do.

Real men don't go out and start fights with guns.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:50 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 25):
That's my point. If people want to kill, they will find a way to do it.

Your right,

If you really want to you can kill, you can use about anything imaginable.

But guns, there have been so many accidents involving guns and children who have managed to get hold of them by various means.... its just unnecessary (IMO) and it they weren't around it wouldn't happen
.
There will always be bad people out there willing to kill and shoot but if we can take one of there means away them I'm all for it.
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Maverick623
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:56 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
People in the EU and in Canada don't seem to have a problem with the government being the only one with guns, why should we?

How quickly we forget history.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
Amen Doc.

You didn't even bother to read the facts. Just blindly agree with your preconceived notions.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Right. Gun's are dangerous things and should only be handled by trained professionals.

Guns are dangerous. People should get training in firearms safety.

Driving is also dangerous, and kills many more people than guns. Should we ban cars as well?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
especially if they haven't really any cause to have it.

My cause is personal protection. I don't own a gun personally, but I know I have a right to get one. And if I ever felt that my right was going to be taken away, you can bet I'd stock up.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
I'd much prefer to have guns confined to just Government and criminals than every Tom, Dick and Harry carrying one, at least that way you narrow it down to only 2 groups.

Thanks for lumping every law-abiding citizen into some wacko Tom.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 24):
being able to walk into a gun shop and buying one over the counter like i believe is the case in the US.

Again.... credibility gone. You have zero idea of our laws or procedures.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
flynlr
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:57 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 26):
Real men don't go out and start fights with guns.

True enough but if attacked or threatened one of my guns will finish said fight,
The Right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
 
Maverick623
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:01 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 26):
My very quotable mom says that men should get back to fistfighting. If you're really mad at someone, go ahead, hit them with your closed fist. Break a few knuckles. It's what real men do.

Real men don't go out and start fights with guns.

Fun anecdote, but let's put emotion and macho-ness aside.

A gun should only be fired in three situations:

On the shooting range, while hunting, and to defend oneself or others against a potentially lethal attack.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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jetmech
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:08 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
10 bucks says this guy shouldn't have had a gun in the first place.

So what? Many recent perpetrators of gun massacres shouldn't have had guns. When will laws ever prevent gun massacres taking place if you keep flooding the wider community with so many firearms?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

Do you ever stop to think why there are so many "illegal" guns in the first place? Guns don't acquire an "illegal" status from the get go. I'll be willing to bet that most "illegal" firearms made their initial entry into the community via an entirely "legal" process. What assurance can be taken from "law abiding" citizens anyway? Many perpetrators of gun massacres were "law abiding" citizens up to the moment they pulled the trigger. The problem has nothing to do with the legal status of the firearm, and everything to do with the sheer number of them in the wider community.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
Should we ban cars as well?

Nope. I've said this in many firearm debates and I'll say it again. Cars provide an extremely useful utility to the widespread community that far outweighs the deaths associated with them. Guns provide no useful utility whatsoever that comes anywhere near to justifying the deaths associated with them.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2010-01-20 00:26:10]
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
Flighty
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:28 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 30):
Fun anecdote, but let's put emotion and macho-ness aside.

A gun should only be fired in three situations:

Oh sure, it would be nice if were that easy to put emotion and violence away. But that's what we have to deal with. When people are losing their mind, should they have access to guns? A person with 2 fists can't kill 8-10 people.

People have been fighting and going berserk since the beginning of time. Sure, step 1 is to calm down. But it's also wise to keep guns away from the problem.
 
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OA412
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:28 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
How quickly we forget history.

Which history? World War II? Are you seriously going to argue that Europe today is anything like pre-World War II Europe or that there is an actual fear of a similar war breaking out in Europe in the near future?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
You didn't even bother to read the facts. Just blindly agree with your preconceived notions.

Actually I did read the facts. Did you bother to read my comment regarding armed police officers killed in the line of duty?
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Maverick623
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:41 am



Quoting JetMech (Reply 31):
Many perpetrators of gun massacres were "law abiding" citizens up to the moment they pulled the trigger.

But most of them weren't supposed to have them in the first place.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 31):
The problem has nothing to do with the legal status of the firearm, and everything to do with the sheer number of them in the wider community.

And you think by banning them the problem will just go away?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 33):
Which history? World War II?

Partially. The Second Amendment, after all, was written in the 1790s, when the direct threat of tyranny existed.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 33):
Are you seriously going to argue that Europe today is anything like pre-World War II Europe or that there is an actual fear of a similar war breaking out in Europe in the near future?

Make no mistake: the war started because Hitler kept invading other countries and killing off their Jewish populations, among others.

However, one of the first reforms he did was to prohibit private citizens from owning firearms.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 33):
Actually I did read the facts

I was referring to your blind support of Doc (who has remained not-so-oddly silent since I and other called him out) and his statement that the soldiers at Fort Hood were all armed.

You don't base a conclusion on falsified data.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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scbriml
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:51 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

Yet strangely enough, in many places in the World where this is the case, the murder rates and cases of death by firearms are significantly lower than in the US. Spooky eh?
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Maverick623
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:59 am



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 35):

Yet strangely enough, in many places in the World where this is the case, the murder rates

The murder rates are comparable, and in many armed nations less.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 35):
and cases of death by firearms are significantly lower

Of course, less guns = less deaths by guns.

Strangely enough, most of Finland is armed. Canada has a sizeable gun ownership.

Clearly the problem isn't with guns, it's with people. All the more reason to let law-abiding citizens carry.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 35):
Spooky eh?

Only when you distort facts to support your argument.
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JJJ
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:03 am



Quoting JetMech (Reply 31):
Do you ever stop to think why there are so many "illegal" guns in the first place? Guns don't acquire an "illegal" status from the get go. I'll be willing to bet that most "illegal" firearms made their initial entry into the community via an entirely "legal" process.

That's the point. The legal and illegal sides of the equation complement themselves.

If there is a large number of legal weapons, there's bound to be a large number of illegal weapons as well.... and they'll be cheap.

An illegal handgun here costs thousands of euros.... which effectively puts them out of reach of the common criminal. Only drug operations, terrorists and very especialized criminals will have access them so the common citizen doesn't have to worry.

I'm a gun owner btw. I have a shotgun I use for clay pigeon and hunting and, frankly, I wouldn't trust a good part of my shooting clubs colleagues with anything heavier than a slingshot.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:21 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
Quoting Homer71 (Reply 16):
And for every mass shooting that occurs in this country, there are countless more instances where a law-abiding homeowner shoots and injures/kills a thug trying to break into their house.

A massively overblown statement. There are very few such instances ever reported. And they certainly don't balance out the thousands of deaths that are caused by killing with guns every year.

Whilst it is believed that this occurs often there is little supporting data that I can find.
Another set of data that is hard to source is, how many of those burglaries/home invasions, call it what you will situations, escalated and turned out badly for the law-abiding homeowner purely because he/she produced a firearm.*
I am sure there are many thousands of people(likely millions) that bought a gun, got a permit,, perhaps even fired off a few rounds at the range yet have no idea of the commitment you make when you draw a gun, no idea of the mental attitude you must have to manage that situation.
No idea at all how high the stakes are raised when you do that!

* I am tempted to believe that number far outweighs the number that manage to protect their families and property.
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jetmech
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:35 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
But most of them weren't supposed to have them in the first place.

Precisely! There were probably a multitude of federal, state and local laws saying these people could not have guns yet they still managed to obtain them.Laws are completely useless unless you do something about the root cause of the problem.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
And you think by banning them the problem will just go away?

You think the problem will go away if we maintain the current status quo?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
Strangely enough, most of Finland is armed.

Weirder still is the fact that there have been many recent Finnish gun massacres.

http://www.journalisted.com/article?id=2061971
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7082795.stm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
Clearly the problem isn't with guns, it's with people

Sure, but we've seen how ineffective it is to prevent certain people from having guns. The only option to control the problem, is to enact measures against the weapon itself.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 37):
The legal and illegal sides of the equation complement themselves.

Yes, but I wouldn't classify this relationship as desirable nor "win-win".

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2010-01-20 02:38:05]
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
baroque
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:38 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
Make no mistake: the war started because Hitler kept invading other countries and killing off their Jewish populations, among others.

Now who needs a history lesson? It started because the Molotov--Ribbentrop Pact made Hitler confident enough to invade Poland and a guarantee had been given to Poland by Britain and France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance

Attacking Belgium, Roumania, Turkey or Poland would have set WWII in train. One of Britain's main aims in late 1939 was to take control of the Kiruna iron ore, but the first plans to do that were stopped by the peace treaty between Finland and Russia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 35):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

Yet strangely enough, in many places in the World where this is the case, the murder rates and cases of death by firearms are significantly lower than in the US. Spooky eh?

Getting back near the topic, this is true. What is it about the US gun homicide rate that a proportion of folk there do not understand? Or is it thought that only certain minorities in DC get killed?

Where have I heard the name Appamattox before, seems vaguely familiar!!

[Edited 2010-01-20 03:07:29]
 
kappel
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:03 am



Quoting Derico (Reply 8):
Mass shootings and killlngs in the US are no longer news, everyone expects them. It's like reporting ond hooliganism in football stadiums in South America. What else is new?

It's widely reported here in the Netherlands... a country that has banned guns for citizens and these kinds of mass killings don't occur. And has a much lower murder rate I may add.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
If you take away guns from law-abiding citizens, only criminals and the government will have guns.

That doesn't mean there will be higher crime rates. There is more to crime than that.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 18):
Care to explain why the US has more gun related deaths per year than any other Western Country? In fact, more gun deaths per year than many other Western country's combined. Our out of control gun culture wouldn't have anything to do with it would it? People in the EU and in Canada don't seem to have a problem with the government being the only one with guns, why should we?

Indeed, see my point above about the country where I live.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
However, one of the first reforms he did was to prohibit private citizens from owning firearms.

So... you're point is that if the citizens (or the jews) of Europe had guns WWII would not have happened? How would they fight with their guns against the Luftwaffe, not to mention the Panzers? Handguns wouldn't have made a bit of difference against that.

But... I understand the situation will not change in the US. Guns are a right to many people and no politician will do anything about it. That would be political suicide.
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:08 am



Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
Partially. The Second Amendment, after all, was written in the 1790s, when the direct threat of tyranny existed.

And what direct threat of tyranny exists today?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
However, one of the first reforms he did was to prohibit private citizens from owning firearms.

You're fooling yourself if you believe that an armed citizenry would have been any match for Hitler's war machine.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
The murder rates are comparable, and in many armed nations less.

Where are they comparable? The US is a western nation and as such it needs to be compared with other western nations. No other western nation has a murder rate as high as the US. The next closest, Switzerland, has a rate that is less than 1/2 of that in the US.
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baroque
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:27 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 42):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 36):
The murder rates are comparable, and in many armed nations less.

Where are they comparable?

Since there seems to be some doubt, I will repost data from the Mandatory sentencing thread. But as someone commented there, we would not want facts to get in the way would we? With armed robbery at United States 221 and Canada 94 we can only shudder at what it would be in the US were folk not able to protect themselves so well.


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm
Looking at the above statistics, one would think that Europe is soft on crime, while the U.S. approach to law and order is based on no-nonsense deterrence. In reality, Europe is relatively crime-free, and the U.S. has the worst crime rate in the world:

Murders committed with handguns annually:

United States 8,915
Switzerland 53
Sweden 19
Canada 8
United Kingdom 7

Murder rate (per 100,000 people):

United States 8.40
Canada 5.45
Denmark 5.17
Germany 4.20
Norway 1.99
United Kingdom 1.97
Sweden 1.73
Japan 1.20
Finland 0.70

Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people):

United States 24.4
Canada 2.6
Sweden 2.3
Norway 2.3
Finland 2.3
Denmark 2.2
United Kingdom 2.0
Netherlands 1.2
Germany 0.9
Japan 0.5

Rape (per 100,000 people):

United States 37.20
Sweden 15.70
Denmark 11.23
Germany 8.60
Norway 7.87
United Kingdom 7.26
Finland 7.20
Japan 1.40

Armed robbery (per 100,000 people)

United States 221
Canada 94
United Kingdom 63
Sweden 49
Germany 47
Denmark 44
Finland 38
Norway 22
Japan 1
 
JJJ
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:12 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 39):
Yes, but I wouldn't classify this relationship as desirable nor "win-win".

Of course.

Problem is, the US has reached a point in which even if all gun ownership was outlawed and all law-abiding citizens turned their weapons in, there would still be an enormous cache of illegal weapons enough to keep the country unsafe for decades or centuries.
 
HOMER71
Posts: 2142
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:18 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
A massively overblown statement. There are very few such instances ever reported. And they certainly don't balance out the thousands of deaths that are caused by killing with guns every year.



Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Just how many instances are you talking about here, compered to all the mass shootings that have occurred ?

Google "homeowner shoots intruder"

In Houston, there was a period of time where this was occurring twice a week

BTW, not every home invasion gone wrong gets reported in the national media; every mass shooting does...

[Edited 2010-01-20 04:32:16 by homer71]
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CALTECH
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:46 pm



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
shooting spree at a military base? *Many* of those folks were armed professional soldiers... and they died.

So wrong. So misinformed.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 3):
The idea of being able to own a gun, or in most people's minds, the "right" to own a gun is too ingrained in the minds of most Americans to ever be challenged. Sad...

Using this type of argument, maybe we should look at the idiots who have the "right" to own and drive cars. Approximately 120 people a day are killed in the U.S.A. from car owners. It is estimated one million are killed around the world every year from the terror of motorized vehicles. That is a pretty full Airbus A-320 or Boeing B-737 crashing with no survivors every day in the U.S.A. Cars should be banned first.
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baroque
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:50 pm



Quoting Homer71 (Reply 44):
BTW, not every home invasion gone wrong gets reported in the national media; every mass shooting does...

You could have cited
http://www.sovereignty.org.uk/siteinfo/newsround/gunlie.html
Which reports:
People are very surprised to learn that survey data show that guns are used defensively by private citizens in the U.S. from 1.5 to 3.4 million times a year, at least three times more frequently than guns are used to commit crimes. A question I hear repeatedly is: "If defensive gun use occurs so often, why haven't I ever heard of even one story?"

And then goes on at length without producing anything to verify this. Dare one suggest that the reason evidence for that view is thin on the ground is that it is thin on the ground? The US surveys just about everything else, it is hard to believe that question has not been asked and if the result was favourable to the gun lobby that is has escaped the press. How is the bridge selling business going?
 
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jetmech
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:00 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 45):
Cars should be banned first.

Yes, but cars provide a widespread beneficial utility that justifies the deaths caused by them. What is the comparable benficial utility provided by firearms that justifies the deaths associated with these devices?

Quoting JJJ (Reply 43):
Problem is, the US has reached a point in which even if all gun ownership was outlawed and all law-abiding citizens turned their weapons in, there would still be an enormous cache of illegal weapons enough to keep the country unsafe for decades or centuries.

I agree. However, maintaining the current status quo is hardly helping the problem. If there really is such an enormous cache of weapons in the wider community already, then there really seems to be no point making anymore.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2010-01-20 06:15:47]
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):

Statistics on the Internet is crap nowadays. Everything is so tainted with biases that there are no true 100% actual facts to support both sides. Until somebody develops a legit, 100% biased free source of facts, we'll never know the true statistics of dealing with firearms. Every source I have been to have had different stats.

Also, I cannot find any government sources of England, Germany, France, Japan, etc. of their firearm statistics.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
baroque
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RE: Seven Dead In Yet Another USA Shooting Spree

Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:29 pm



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 48):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 42):

Statistics on the Internet is crap nowadays. Everything is so tainted with biases that there are no true 100% actual facts to support both sides. Until somebody develops a legit, 100% biased free source of facts, we'll never know the true statistics of dealing with firearms. Every source I have been to have had different stats.

Everything??????  faint  Could it not be that correct statistics would support only one side of an argument?

So you think that, for example, the CIA country stats are "crap". Also many of the stats that get cited here are official government stats, which while they might not be 100% correct are certainly not crap.

The site I cited probably does have a bias if you read it so it was perhaps (and perhaps not) telling that it could not find a survey to cite to support its assertion. The only evidence presented was press reports and a complaint that the press does not report them all. Probably true, but one swallow doth not a summer make.

And some do strive for objectivity however many obstacles might be placed in our paths.

Dare one ask if the Internet and presumably the vast number of books and magazines which one can access are all crap, how do you form your opinions?

Or put the other way, what sort of information is going to get the 'JakeOrion Good Housekeeping certificate of "non-crap"'.

A.net to be declared "a statistics free zone"?

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