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MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:28 pm



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 99):
Especially since most post had no mention of that at all...! I think a lot of people are being let down tremendously by the Obama administration and are feeling duped. This is NOT what Obama campaigned on. The Pelosi and Reid led Houses of Congress have seized the opportunity they have had the past twelve months to for all intents and purposes pay off their fringe supporters and have done an abominable job of representing the people, what they're paid to do. If Obama is smart he will do well to reign in the party leaders and not tell us, his employers, what we want.

Pelosi has done an incredible job and is doing what the base of the Democratic party wants.

It is Reid and Obama that have let down the Democratic base. Obama supporters feel "duped" by Obama because he was a lot like Colin Powell or Ron Paul. They didn't know the issues, much less have a decent understanding of how politics works so assumed that whatever they personally believed, that Obama was "for" that and transferred onto him their own hopes, dreams, and aspirations. He ran as a centrist, and guess what? He's a centrist. Obama had the least progressive healthcare plan of the Democrats running for President. Hillary Clinton's was the most progressive, and yet many believed Obama was the most progressive on healthcare, because they liked Obama, and they themselves liked universal coverage and therefore Obama was for them.

The level of ignorance in America's electorate has consistently astounded me. The USA President's election is just like a high school prom king or student council campaign. It's a popularity contest, whereby the majority of the electorate make up their mind who they like the best and therefore vote for within minutes and usually when the candidate is talking about themselves and their lives, not what they plan to do as President. America worships the cult of celebrity, and the President is the biggest reality tv program every 4 years. It's like a 2 year long American Idol program.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3877
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:31 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 100):
Pelosi has done an incredible job

For constituents in San Francisco no doubt. Most of the country (and the world for that matter) is not San Francisco. To center/moderates like me she is a barking moonbat, and we'll just have to agree to disagree  Smile

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 100):
The level of ignorance in America's electorate has consistently astounded me. The USA President's election is just like a high school prom king or student council campaign. It's a popularity contest, whereby the majority of the electorate make up their mind who they like the best and therefore vote for within minutes and usually when the candidate is talking about themselves and their lives, not what they plan to do as President. America worships the cult of celebrity, and the President is the biggest reality tv program every 4 years. It's like a 2 year long American Idol program.

And on that I cannot agree with you MORE! To make it worse, all the voters are Paula Abdul...
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 11208
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:41 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 73):
Quoting CALTECH (Reply 71):
The slide of the United States of America into the mediocrity of socialism has been halted by the People of Massachusetts, for now .



You guys are amazing, just amazing! What a load of crap you're trying shovel. Problem is, only the True Believers believe this lilne.

Massachusettes voted for their own interests, not your, dude. They don't give a flying frack what you or I think.

Read the "tea leaves", my friend. "Change" is blowin in the wind, and it is not ObamaCare the nation wants or can afford.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 75):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
You're either with us or against us."

"We'll get him, dead or alive."

"Bring it on!"

"I have political capital, and I intend to use it."

Care to change that tune? He was probably the most arrogant president we've ever had.

Yep keep blaming Bush. It so much easier than to actually admit your policies are not what this country wants or needs. Where you watching anything last night?

Correct, instead Obama gives the Christmas Day "Underwwear Bomber" who burned his nuts off pain killers? When this idiot dies, what is he going to do with his 72 virgins?

Quoting Cgnnrw (Reply 77):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
The US no longer "owns" Citybank, but we do "own" GM, Chrysler, Fannie and Freddie, and get to tell AIG what they can do. Obama did demand banks modify mortgages, and he is now telling them how much to pay their employees.

Well had their CEOs or whoever didn't go begging for handouts they would be free to do whatever they pleased and pay their employees whatever they wanted.....when you beg for gov't money you can't complain when the gov't starts making the calls.

Obama's "Pay Czar" has already said he wants to limit excutive compensation for banks and other companies that did not take government money.

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 78):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
The US no longer "owns" Citybank.

Actually my original statement was correct. See the attached press release from Citibank.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...1.htm

Read it again, it says Citibank paid off the TARP money to the government on 23 December 2009, about a month ago.

Quoting Texan (Reply 79):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 54):
Exactly. I vote Democratic because I see the part as the lesser of two evils. But at the end of the day, I have many issues with the Democratic party and its leadership.

The problem with voting for the lesser of two evils, of course, is that you are still voting for evil I tend to vote for the candidate I think is the least corruptible and most susceptible to reasoned debate.

Isn't that the defination of "lesser of two evils"? I know of no one, except the DNC robots, who agree with a politician 100% of the time. So the vote is always the "lesser of two evils".

Quoting Baroque (Reply 82):
Quoting Texan (Reply 79):
We are nowhere near socialism and, even if we had 100 Democratic Senators and a supermajority in the House, would be nowhere near socialism at the end of Obama's turn. Believe the talking heads all you want, but the Democratic Party today most resembles the Republican Party of the 1950s. And the Republican Party, as a whole, has slid so far to the right they are unrecognizable even to many of their longtime stalwarts.

Thank heaven some in the US know where zero is in the political spectrum. Obama being a socialist is indeed risible.

And why does socialism get such a bad rap?

Because Americans like their liberty and freedom, we don't need the government to make decisions for us.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 82):
If you don't want to be murdered by a person aged between 15 and 24 it looks as if more socialist systems would be the go, Japan is way down this list, and their government is supposed to be conservative but their society has "very nasty" socialist tendencies.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/8Comparison.htm
Murder rate for males age 15-24 (per 100,000 people):

United States 24.4
Canada 2.6
Sweden 2.3
Norway 2.3
Finland 2.3



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 85):
A little exagurated...

Intentional Homicide rates per 100,000 population, 2008

US: 5.4
Canada, 1.83
Sweden: 0.89
Norway: 0.71
Finland: 2.17

Now let's add a few more:

Venezuela: 58.0
South Africa: 37.0
Brazil: 25.7
Russia: 16.5

Correct, Dreadnought. Baroque also forgot to mention the highest cities for murder, rape, assaults, etc. are in cities controlled by Democrats like Washington, Detroit, Newark, LA, Chicargo, NY, Philly, Kansas City, Miami, etc.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 84):
The current Health Care Bill is beyond saving.

Or the Senate version gets passed and we waste no more time on it for a few years.

Not going to happen. Obama just sold out to the union thugs about not taxing their Cadallac health coverage until 2016 (which BTW is the longest possible year Obama can stay in office). Change on letter in the Senate version and both houses must vote on it.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 88):
I hope this election is a sign of things to come in the November mid-terms but that said, the Republicans need to avoid becoming over-confident expecting a major win regardless of what happens between now and November.

I agree, this will be a major Congressional changing year like 1994 and 2006 were, and the GOP had better learned something from 2006.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 88):
I'm sure some of the seats could be won by Howdy Doody so long as he doesn't have a D after his name

Howdy Doody (D) is already in Congress, sometimes under the name of Pelosi, Reid, Frank, and Schumer.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
The people have spoken.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 69):
Massachusetts has fired the "second shot fired heard around the world",

I am so sick of this lie. Republicans won one seat in the Senate and it is the voice of a nation? No, it is not. I live in California and I never got a vote in this race. This one race does NOT speak for me nor does it speak for 49 other states.

It is not a lie, my friend, it is a fact. You can accept it, or not, your choice. Have you noticed every political race where Obama has shown uo to support the Democrat candidate, that candidate has lost? It happened in 3 blue states, VA, NJ, and now MA. Do you see a trend here?

I'm hoping Obama hits a lot of campagin trails for the Dumbo this year, he is currently batting 1.000 with another "swing and a miss" to put it into baseball terms.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
Just because one group hates legislation from the opposition does not mean that one seat in the Senate or House is the voice of an entire nation.



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
I know you guys need your ego stroked constantly, but get over it. I notice none of these lies were spouted when Dems won the seats in NY-23 and CA-17...

Yeap, the "Big O" didn't show up for those campagins.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 69):
the election in MN that Al Frankin stole after some 200 days

Stole how?

Just keep up withj law suits eliminating certain counties until the count comes out your way, then stop.

Quoting Slider (Reply 91):
Well said Falcon.



Quoting Slider (Reply 91):
For starters, Obama needs to get his head out of his ass and make ALL legislation transparent as he promised. He’s allowed (or perhaps encouraged) Reid and Pelosi to be his attack dogs and they’ve failed (thankfully, for the sake of the republic).

They don't want transparency, they don't want us to know what deals they are making. Even Biden's meetings on "transparency in government" are closed to the public and press.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 92):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 81):
Now Brown faces some challenges. He may or may not have a say on the health reform issues. If the House simply votes in the Senate bill then Brown is impotent on that issue.


Not so. If the House passes the Senate bill, Brown will have a say on every procedural vote during the reconciliation process.

They cannot do that now, Obama told the unions they did not have to pay the taxes on their health care plans. That is at least a change to the current Senate version, so both houses will get another shot at the bill.

That means US Senator Scott Brown (R) MA will get a chance at supporting the GOP filibuster.
 
texan
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:49 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Isn't that the defination of "lesser of two evils"?

I tend to vote for "not evil," whether that means voting for a member of the established party, a third party, an independent, or writing someone in. Confining oneself to two parties is a great way to be exposed to only two ideas. Or, more often, the same idea repackaged and sold as something new and different.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
MoltenRock
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:54 pm



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 101):
For constituents in San Francisco no doubt. Most of the country (and the world for that matter) is not San Francisco. To center/moderates like me she is a barking moonbat, and we'll just have to agree to disagree

Ok, but what specific things has she done you as a moderate/center Democrat done that you disagree with? (Not personality... legislatively or in her official job capacity.)

Think about it. She got a stimulus bill thru, ethics reform, a brand new budget, healthcare reform, a comprehensive energy bill, increased veterans aid and college aid, comprehensive financial industry reform, and a few others, and this was all by last fall. What has the Senate passed? A budget, and the stimulus package after they gutted almost 1/2 of the stimulus portions of it and replaced it with tax breaks to get Republican votes, it got 1 and only 1 Republican vote from Independent - Republican Sen. Olympia Snowe.

Pelosi is getting legislation passed and thru the House. Do you not like the House version of these bills now waiting to die on the vine over at the toxic waste dump known as the Senate?
 
luckyone
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:02 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 104):
stimulus bill thru, ethics reform, a brand new budget, healthcare reform, a comprehensive energy bill

Just because she's done things doesn't mean I agree with WHAT she's done and the WAY she did them. Aside from roads and a few other infrastructure projects that don't even amount to half of the money gregariously thrown around by Congress for this "stimulus" it's a giant barrel of pork, like every government spending endeavor. Healthcare I'm not even going to touch because that's a topic for another thread. Throw on top of all that the continuation of the "Bush lied, we were intentionally deceived" and the almost monthly "she-stepped-in-a-pile-of-doo-and-needs-to-shut-her-mouth" episodes and snafus I just don't think she's doing a good job.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 104):
comprehensive financial industry reform

Which would not have been necessary had the financial institutions not been forced by the Imperial Federal Government to lend money to people that hadn't a shred of financial sensibility or any real means of being responsible with the loans. See the "Housing Bubble". To boot it's putting more government say so in where I don't think it belongs.

Just my two cents, but you asked  Smile
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 11208
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:10 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
Quoting Slider (Reply 91):
For starters, Obama needs to get his head out of his ass and make ALL legislation transparent as he promised. He’s allowed (or perhaps encouraged) Reid and Pelosi to be his attack dogs and they’ve failed (thankfully, for the sake of the republic).


Really? How so, please be specific. Which "non transparency issues" are you specifically speaking to? You haven't provided a single fact in your entire post, just rhetoric and talking points.

Oh let me see..... he did want to broardcast 1 hour of the house/senate conference on health care. But the conference has been going on since 26 Dec., and 1 hour is nothing. Joe Biden, the unscene VP holds his transparency in government meeting closed to the public. The Big O appointed 43 Czars, accountable to no one, who can make outragious demands on the public. Want more?

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
Now, even if the Democrats are or aren't being transparent, frankly does it matter anyway? Republicans aren't going to vote for anything anyway, so why bother?

I want to know how my own Congress and President is going to screw me. So does most of America.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
For the next 4 years Republicans are going to vote "NO", which is their prerogative.

As long as they are the minority party in Congress, that is what I want them to do.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
Why are Republican's abusing the filibuster process?

The chart you put up says;

"The longest and most notorious filibusters were against bills on civil rights, voter rights, and school bussing."

That, my friend was back in the 1960s, and each and every one of those were Democrats filibusting Presidents Kennedy's and Johnson's bills, who were also Democrats. President Kenedy and Johnson had to call on Senate Republicans to involk cloture. One of the bioggest US Senators against all these bills was Senator Al Gore Sr. (D) TN, former VP Gore's father. Another was Senator Robert Byrd (D) WV, who was in the KKK at the time and is still in the US Senate today.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 100):
Pelosi has done an incredible job

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

The reply of the month.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 101):
To center/moderates like me she is a barking moonbat,

 bigthumbsup 

Yeah, a FUGLY Moonbat.

"Moonbat is a term used in United States politics as a political epithet referring to social liberals or leftists."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonbat

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 100):
The level of ignorance in America's electorate has consistently astounded me. The USA President's election is just like a high school prom king or student council campaign. It's a popularity contest, whereby the majority of the electorate make up their mind who they like the best and therefore vote for within minutes and usually when the candidate is talking about themselves and their lives, not what they plan to do as President.



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 101):
on that I cannot agree with you MORE!

Do either one of you know, or understand how the POTUS is elected? It is not by the popular vote until you get down to the individual state level, then the candidate with 50% + 1 vote takes the entire state in the electoral college.. It is far from a popularity contest, and most Americans listen to the candidates for months before making up their mind. We do not vote to support a candidate who we might like personally, but what he/she says they can do for the country.
 
luckyone
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Do either one of you know, or understand how the POTUS is elected? It is not by the popular vote until you get down to the individual state level, then the candidate with 50% + 1 vote takes the entire state in the electoral college.. It is far from a popularity contest, and most Americans listen to the candidates for months before making up their mind. We do not vote to support a candidate who we might like personally, but what he/she says they can do for the country.

I'm very familiar with the process, thanks. The fact that the representatives from the electoral college USUALLY and SHOULD award their votes based on the POPULAR vote...do I really need to elaborate any further on that one... Yes, the popular vote isn't used to directly determine the POTUS' election, HOWEVER, it does matter. In comes the American Idol correlations. There are plenty of studies out there showing that many people vote on basis of trivial matters such as looks and ability to read off of a teleprompter. Many people are so very easily swayed by superficial factors such as voice rhythm and pregnant pauses that it becomes a damn talent show.

[Edited 2010-01-20 11:22:27 by luckyone]

[Edited 2010-01-20 11:23:08 by luckyone]
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:42 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
Really? How so, please be specific. Which "non transparency issues" are you specifically speaking to? You haven't provided a single fact in your entire post, just rhetoric and talking points.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Oh let me see..... he did want to broardcast 1 hour of the house/senate conference on health care. But the conference has been going on since 26 Dec., and 1 hour is nothing. Joe Biden, the unscene VP holds his transparency in government meeting closed to the public. The Big O appointed 43 Czars, accountable to no one, who can make outragious demands on the public. Want more?

KC135 nailed it briefly, but there haven’t even BEEN committee meetings…the cloture vote circumvented a lot of that. Bills that aren’t read, much less vetted openly, much less allowing debate. Closed door meetings, backroom deals, the Louisiana Purchase, the Cornhusker Cash, the other bribes to Senators.

No disrespect intended Molten, but if you think this administration has been open and forthcoming, much less transparent (remember the C-Span promise?), you are intellectual disingenuous because you choose to intentionally ignore the obvious facts.

This is OUR government—EVERYTHING—EVERY FREAKING THING—dealing with public policy or the expense of taxpayer dollars that is not of a national security nature should be publicly and openly discussed. All committees open to citizens. All Senate and House committee meetings debated. Every bill read publicly, regardless of length.
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:47 pm



Quoting Luckyone (Reply 105):
Throw on top of all that the continuation of the "Bush lied, we were intentionally deceived" and the almost monthly "she-stepped-in-a-pile-of-doo-and-needs-to-shut-her-mouth" episodes and snafus I just don't think she's doing a good job.

You are confusing "job" with media exposure and if you like her personality. Her job, as it is defined consists of:

1.) administering the oath of office to Members;
2.) recognizing Members for the purpose of speaking or making motions;
3.) referring bills and resolutions to committees;
4.) putting questions to a vote of Members;
5.) declaring a quorum (or the absence of one);
6.) counting and declaring all votes;
7.) deciding points of order;
8.) appointing House Members to select and conference committees;
9.) exercising additional committee appointment authority under party conference rules;
10) making appointments to fill temporary vacancies in House administrative offices;
11) appointing the Chair of the Committee of the Whole and the Speaker pro tempore; and 12) physically signing all bills and resolutions passed by the House by hand

The Speaker has no formal committee assignments, but does usually serve as an ex officio member of the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. The Speaker very rarely votes or participates in floor debates.

http://www.rules.house.gov

It's fine if you just dislike her as a person but she has done her official job quite well by comparison. Unfortunately, women in America who are hard charging and successful are labeled "a bitch", "shrill", "hag" etc.. It's rooted in misogyny. If a male CEO does it then it's "tough" and "aggressive" or "savvy", but a women becomes "bitch" if doing the same thing. Now I'm certainly not saying you don't like her because of misogyny, but it's something to consider, and how she is presented by chauvinist pigs like Limbaugh and his ilk.

It also cuts both ways regardless of political party be it Ann Coulter, Carly Fiorina, Hillary Clinton, Pelosi, or Meg Whitman.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 105):
Just because she's done things doesn't mean I agree with WHAT she's done and the WAY she did them. Aside from roads and a few other infrastructure projects that don't even amount to half of the money gregariously thrown around by Congress for this "stimulus" it's a giant barrel of pork, like every government spending endeavor. Healthcare I'm not even going to touch because that's a topic for another thread.

Did you not like the House version of the healthcare reform? Also, "pork" is a term used loosely. Your pork is another districts badly needed funds to build/fix ____________. Likewise, badly needed projects in your state / district are other people's definition of pork. It's just like the difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" ala Reagan. Someone's "freedom fighter" is another's "terrorist" Tomato/tomatoe as a friend of mine always says. Same thing, different semantics.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:57 pm

Brown is a good fit for MA, IMHO. He's a very progressive republican and is even pro-choice. Of course, there will be plenty of people who won't even give him a chance just because he is republican.

The thing about Obama is he's not a socialist but when looking at his senate record he is indeed a liberal democrat (ditto Biden, Reid, Pelosi.) That does rub people the wrong way in which some people would call Obama a "socialist" out of their own uninformative nature. Obama is very pro-Europe hence health care reform and the Copenhagen convention but in short it's difficult to make the US to be like a Scandinavian country. There are way too many people in the US and the taxes are not high enough to acclaim such a high standard form of living which certain countries in Europe possess.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
luckyone
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:06 pm

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 109):
You are confusing "job" with media exposure and if you like her personality. Her job, as it is defined consists of:

Her personality and the way she deals with the media are most certainly part of her job description. She is the SPEAKER of the House, therefore she represents ME (and you, and millions of others). It is, and has been my stated and substantiated opinion (an entitlement that you have been trying to yank out from under my feet thank you very much) that she and the House of Representatives that she is leading is not doing a good job representing me and the majority of the people in the United States. Yes she calls votes, and does the running of the House, but she has also IN MY OPINION been abusing that power to satisfy her agenda and the positions she takes. Of course that's hyperbole and opinion, but I am certainly entitled to that. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and certainly can (and apparently do) disagree with me. More power to you.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 109):
It's fine if you just dislike her as a person but she has done her official job quite well by comparison. Unfortunately, women in America who are hard charging and successful are labeled "a bitch", "shrill", "hag" etc.. It's rooted in misogyny. If a male CEO does it then it's "tough" and "aggressive" or "savvy", but a women becomes "bitch" if doing the same thing. Now I'm certainly not saying you don't like her because of misogyny, but it's something to consider, and how she is presented by chauvinist pigs like Limbaugh and his ilk.

Though I may share some opinions with him I think Rush Limbaugh is a windbag full of hot air. Sean Hannity and his cronies can be added to the list of people I would like to push off of a tall cliff. They are the conservative Nancy Pelosi's. I have nothing against women. Not that it's any of your business but my research advisor was a woman, my boss was a woman, and her boss (and thus mine as well) was a woman, and they all did their jobs very well. One was a supreme bitch because she's a supreme bitch regardless of her capacity as my boss. The others were not. I can tell the difference. I have no qualms working for a woman, and actually prefer it.

[Edited 2010-01-20 12:07:23 by luckyone]
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:07 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 59):
Sure, Canadians don't have to pay for healthcare (ignoring what they pay in taxes),

Where did you get that idea? I pay health insurance premiums (as do most other Canadians) and a portion of my taxes to fund health care. Nothing is free, but on a per capita basis I pay about half what Americans pay, and for a better system.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 58):
Many would rather have the option of being able to pay to get an MRI on Friday rather than be put on a 10-week waiting list.

Oh but we do. You can go to a private clinic here. We also have private insurance for extended medical care which is quite cost effective -- covers the extras the main system won't. And I've never waited more than a week for diagnostic test in the public system, often got it the same day.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
Correst, the US is not a socialist state, nor do we want to be. Unfortunately we do have a socialist POTUS, Speaker of the House, and Senate Majority Leader. The "change" for that has begin in Massachusetts and will sweep to other 49 states (or is it 57 states?).

That you all think Obama is a socialist is bizarre beyond belief. There's something drastically wrong with your education system if Obama can be cast as a socialist.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
so why do we need to do what Japan, France or any other country does?

You don't. But you might ask yourselves, if your private enterprise system is so wonderful, why no other developed country in the world has emulated it. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you could learn something from them? I know, perish the thought.

I don't think you have a hope in hell of sorting out the mess that is your health care system because too many Americans are all either paralyzed by an irrational fear of "socialism" (which you already have in many areas anyway) or you don't have any concept of universality when it comes to providing basic services. Problem is, you'll pay a huge economic price for this paralysis because the current health care system is a huge drag on productivity.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Because Americans like their liberty and freedom, we don't need the government to make decisions for us.

Funny, there's a good piece in the Wall Street Journal today about how the US has slipped to #8 on the world's list of countries with the highest level of economic freedom. Particularly interesting is that the countries in front of you (e.g. Canada is #7) all have "socialized" health care systems, and ran their finances much better than the US did.
So much for liberty and freedom.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:18 pm



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
The people have spoken

Those may be ironic words when we have a MINORITY obstructing with filibusters what the MAJORITY elected party tries to do.

Phhhhhtt.
 
cws818
Posts: 824
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:19 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Correct, Dreadnought. Baroque also forgot to mention the highest cities for murder, rape, assaults, etc. are in cities controlled by Democrats like Washington, Detroit, Newark, LA, Chicargo, NY, Philly, Kansas City, Miami, etc.

You must be kidding. So having a Democratic mayor automatically produces more violent crime? Really? The mayor of New York City, by the way, is not a Democrat and the mayor of Los Angeles, while a member of the Democratic party, was not elected as a Democrat because local officials around here don't run with a party affiliation.
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
Ken777
Posts: 10153
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:19 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 89):
The democrats are scratching their heads on the economy , i

Which is far better than Bush scratching his ass on issues like WMD in Iraq (he decided there was so no one would think he was soft?), the economy, major corporate failures, the financial sector falling apart, etc.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
Stole how?

There was a mandatory recount and the counts changed.

As for as taking legal action, can we say 2000, Bush and Florida?

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 92):
If the House passes the Senate bill, Brown will have a say on every procedural vote during the reconciliation process.

If the House passes the Senate version unchanged then the bill goes directly to Obama for signature. The only way the Senate gets involved is if the House makes changes to the Senate version.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 93):
Please tell us what else you like about this candidate, now Senate elect Brown is heading to Washington.

Well, he drives a truck so he has to be an Average Joe.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Just keep up withj law suits eliminating certain counties until the count comes out your way, then stop.

Bush 2000 brought that process to the forefront. No good crying about it now.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Joe Biden, the unscene VP

After the horrors of Cheney it's rather nice to see the VP sitting back a bit, watching the President breathe, etc.

The Cheney concept appears to have led to a situation where Bush was the President and Cheney was the CEO.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Want more?

I'll happily take a few dozen czars over a trillion dollar plus war in Iraq because of WMDs that were not there.

Or another Great Depression.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Do either one of you know, or understand how the POTUS is elected?

Certainly not by the total vote of the people - other wise we might not be in the Great Depression. We certainly wouldn't have been sent to Iraq so our military could be chasing their tails looking for WMD that we not there.
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:35 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 108):
No disrespect intended Molten, but if you think this administration has been open and forthcoming, much less transparent (remember the C-Span promise?), you are intellectual disingenuous because you choose to intentionally ignore the obvious facts.

This is OUR government—EVERYTHING—EVERY FREAKING THING—dealing with public policy or the expense of taxpayer dollars that is not of a national security nature should be publicly and openly discussed. All committees open to citizens. All Senate and House committee meetings debated. Every bill read publicly, regardless of length.

I'm not being "intellectually disingenuous" at all. America is not a direct democracy so you don't get to vote on individual bills I'm sorry. It's a representative form of government where you send your representative (House, Senate, President) to vote on your behalf which I'm sure you're well aware of. If this representative doesn't represent your views on laws, then you and your fellow citizens get to vote him out. That's the way it works as you well know.

Have you read the House version of the healthcare reform bill? I have. HR 3962 is 2,000+ pages.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text


Have you read the Senate version of the healthcare reform bill? It's almost 2,500 pages and I've read about 1/2 of it and reconciling the difference between the two, plus the additional amendments tacked onto it.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:H.R.3590:

All of this stuff is on the internet, at a library, or available from your own Senator's office or House member's office, as well as other places. What difference is putting it on CSpan or reading it outloud if you aren't going to read it, or watch it anyway?

Do you expect that every time your local zoning board considers a construction project you should have a copy of the blueprints, business plan, land surveys, and environmental impact studies put on CSpan? Or mailed to you? This is why we elect people to do this on our behalf. Frankly, 50% of American's aren't qualified to do much more than be a greeter at Walmart. You expect them to understand how to write legislation and enact law that will do what's intended while taking into account current law, as well as 230 years worth of judicial precedent in writing law?

Have you ever gone to Washington to sit in on committee meetings? You can get entry passes to a surprising number of things by simply asking for them.

What I'm saying is your argument is a canard. It is used by those on the right currently because they want to flummox, stall, delay, and try to kill what the majority of Senators and House members want by using rules to hamstring the majority.

I've now seen 3 Republicans come out demanding that the new Senator from Mass. be seated immediately. Funny, how they aren't such sticklers for procedure, reading the bill / motions aloud, and getting the Senate to jump when it's something they want isn't it?
 
dxing
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:39 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 73):
Massachusettes voted for their own interests, not your, dude. They don't give a flying frack what you or I think.

Not according to the exit polling they didn't.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._stunning_victory_in_massachusetts

Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters in the state say health care was the most important factor in their voting decision. Brown made it clear in the closing days of the campaign that he intended to go to Washington to vote against the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats.

Twenty-five percent (25%) of Massachusetts voters say the economy was most important.

Forty-seven percent (47%) favor the health care legislation before Congress while 51% oppose it. However, the intensity was clearly with those who are opposed. Just 25% of voters in Massachusetts Strongly Favor the plan while 41% Strongly Oppose it.

Fifty percent (50%) say it would be better to pass no health care legislation at all rather than passing the bill before Congress.


What flavor is the koolaid today?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 86):
Today it would be political suicide to try to end the program.

They don't have to end it. It is on track to be bankrupt all by itself in about 7 years.

Quoting Texan (Reply 87):
Of the doctors I have talked to (9 or 10), all of them employ someone whose only job is to deal with the insurance companies, fill out each company's forms, and make sure the doctor gets paid. That is one of the key cost-saving measures I see in a government funded insurance plan.

I'd be willing to bet that same person is also submitting paperwork to Medicare for re-imbursement and that the paperwork for that is just as complicated as any of the private insurance companies. Remember, Medicare is the biggest payment denier of the bunch.

Quoting Texan (Reply 87):
That means they can quickly look at another doctor's notes and save time finding out a patient's allergies, medications, and medical history, saving time and therefore cost.

We don't need a government run plan for that. You can already buy a braclet or necklace that carries that info on a scanable chip. I'd much prefer that so my information remains with, and in control by, me.

Quoting Texan (Reply 87):
The government backed enterprise could also negotiate much lower fees with pharmaceutical companies, again lowering costs for patients, providers, and the government.

That could be done via regulation, no need for an expensive government program.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
I am so sick of this lie. Republicans won one seat in the Senate and it is the voice of a nation?

Yes. No longer does the democratic majority have a fillibuster proof majority in the Senate.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
I notice none of these lies were spouted when Dems won the seats in NY-23 and CA-17...

Because those House seats did not change the democratic majority in the way the Massachusetts Senate seat did.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
Or, a bill could be very centrist, well balanced, and just slightly left of center and the bill would get 0 Republican votes

Name one of those that has not gotten a single GOP vote.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
Why are Republican's abusing the filibuster process?

Accrding to the graph the 153 is projected. The graph missed the actual mark by 91 fillibusters as the actual number was 62, only 4 more than the former democratically held 58, and democrats did that two Congresses in a row!!

https://democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=291509&

Republicans have engaged in unprecedented obstructionism. Senate Republicans have forced 62 cloture votes in the Senate, thereby requiring Democrats to pass legislation, not by a simple majority, but by a super-majority of 60 votes. This breaks the previous record for the most filibusters in a 2-year term.

And when you look at the legislation the democratic majority was trying to ram down our throats it's no wonder, Comphrehensive Immigration Reform, Dream Act, S-Chip, Employee Free Choice Act (if ever there was a mis-named bill :0), not to mention the debates on Iraq. No, the democratic party once again set the bar on this issue and now when it is used against them they cry foul.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 114):
You must be kidding. So having a Democratic mayor automatically produces more violent crime? Really? The mayor of New York City, by the way, is not a Democrat and the mayor of Los Angeles, while a member of the Democratic party, was not elected as a Democrat because local officials around here don't run with a party affiliation.

Rank. City, State, % of People Below the Poverty Level

1. Detroit , MI
32.5%
Detroit hasn't elected a Republican mayor since 1961;

2. Buffalo , NY
29.9%
Buffalo, NY hasn't elected one since 1954;

3. Cincinnati , OH
27.8%
Cincinnati, since 1984

4. Cleveland , OH
27.0%
Cleveland, since 1989;

5. Miami , FL
26.9%
Miami has never had a Republican mayor;

5. St. Louis , MO
26.8%
St. Louis, since 1949

7. El Paso , TX
26.4%
El Paso has never had a Republican mayor;

8. Milwaukee , WI
26.2%
Milwaukee, not since 1908;

9. Philadelphia , PA
25.1%
Philadelphia, since 1952;

10. Newark , NJ
24.2%
Newark, since 1907

U.S. Census Bureau, 2006 American Community Survey, August 2007

It is the poor who habitually elect Democrats---yet they are still poor

Quote:
"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."

- William J. H. Boetcker

It all makes perfect sense when you realize that the basis of Modern Liberalism is that they can maintain power by buying people off with generous social programs, which ensure that the recipients stay poor, even while they get their programs. The last thing they want is for poor people to pull themselves out of poverty - they might become Republican.

[Edited 2010-01-20 12:44:51]
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
dxing
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:48 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 116):
What I'm saying is your argument is a canard. It is used by those on the right currently because they want to flummox, stall, delay, and try to kill what the majority of Senators and House members want by using rules to hamstring the majority.

The Louisanna Purchase and the Cornhusker Kickback were done in conference to get 60 votes, not included in either the House or Senate bill on line. Neither was the union exemption. The conference committe resolves differences between the two bills and could have easily been televised thus putting these types of deals in the light of day. Why the hostility to allowing them to be shown anyway? If someone wants to watch they should be able to. No national security issues are at risk of exposure. As you stated many committee meetings are open to the public, why not this one? Many of us have work schedules that preclude us being able to go to Washington to see even those that are open.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 116):
I've now seen 3 Republicans come out demanding that the new Senator from Mass. be seated immediately. Funny, how they aren't such sticklers for procedure, reading the bill / motions aloud, and getting the Senate to jump when it's something they want isn't it?

Again, the democrats set the bar on this when they rushed to seat Rep. Niki Tsongas in the House after her 51% special election win so she could vote to override a President Bush veto.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
texan
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:17 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
I'd be willing to bet that same person is also submitting paperwork to Medicare for re-imbursement and that the paperwork for that is just as complicated as any of the private insurance companies. Remember, Medicare is the biggest payment denier of the bunch.

I agree that Medicare needs to be reformed and that they have a ton of paperwork too.

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
That could be done via regulation, no need for an expensive government program.

So the government should either regulate how much private companies pay for drugs or purchase drugs from the manufacturer and resell them to companies at a reduced rate? And you would be in favor of that?

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
TheCol
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:23 pm



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):

Way to use your head. Don't you just love party goons?

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 7):

Please define socialism according to you.



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
Obama style Socialism.



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
Unfortunately we do have a socialist POTUS

WTF is wrong with you Republicans? Can't you tell the difference between Socialism and American Liberalism? Seriously, you're embarrassing your country. Time to take a serious look at international politics.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12):
What we have in this nation isn't Socialism. Even this new Health Care bill, stripped of a Public Option, isn't Socialism.

 checkmark 

BTW, good thread. Welcome back.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 32):
Blue Dogs

WTF?  Yeah sure
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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seb146
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:29 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
It happened in 3 blue states, VA, NJ, and now MA. Do you see a trend here?

As much of a trend as seeing all the states involved have seaports or international airports. Please explain how that can possibly make a difference.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Just keep up withj law suits eliminating certain counties until the count comes out your way, then stop

Excuse me, but there were law suits filed on both sides. What does that prove?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
texan
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:45 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 118):
It is the poor who habitually elect Democrats---yet they are still poor

So if poor people elected Republican mayors they would be better off? I'm sorry, but a bigger problem seems to be national policies increasing income inequality and helping push those who have little to have even less and those who have more acquire even more wealth. Both parties are complicit in this, but the Republicans especially so.

Now, how about we look at the states with the highest levels of poverty:
Mississippi 20.6% R mixed with Southern Dems. Usually votes R nationally.
Louisiana 18.6% R mixed with Southern Dems. Mixed but leans D nationally.
New Mexico 18.1% D mixed with R. Mixed but leans D nationally.
Arkansas 17.9% D mixed with R and Southern Dems. Votes D nationally usually.
Kentucky 17.3% D and mixed with R and Southern Dems. Usually votes R nationally
Alabama 16.9% R and mixed with Southern Dems. Usually votes R nationally.
West Virginia 16.9% D mixed with lots of R. Assuming they vote D nationally based on current Senators.
Texas 16.3% R with mostly R. Votes R nationally.
Oklahoma 15.9% D with lots of R. Votes R nationally.
Tennessee 15.9% D with lots of R. Votes R nationally.

So poverty doesn't have much to do with whether the area has Republicans or Democrats. It is a mixed bag. Both parties are complicit in the continuing income inequality gap and increasing poverty levels at the local, state, and national levels.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
MoltenRock
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 112):
That you all think Obama is a socialist is bizarre beyond belief. There's something drastically wrong with your education system if Obama can be cast as a socialist.

Anyone who throws that out there isn't worth the time of day, much less an intelligent answer. It's just as ludicrous as someone calling Bush a Nazi or a doctor a baby killer. It's just hyper-partisan hyperbole. If that's truly what they believe they are beyond rational discussion IMHO.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Well, he drives a truck so he has to be an Average Joe.

Is he? Since I paid more attention to his political beliefs vs. persona of self I had no idea. So I looked it up. He and his wife own a 3,000-square-foot primary home in Wrentham where the median price for a home this size is $477,494 (2008), a 2,000-square foot summer home in Rye, New Hampshire, three condos in Boston, and a holiday home/condo in Aruba. His wife is a reporter for the local news channel and his daughter has been a contestant / finalist? on American Idol.

While I wouldn't call that "Joe Average" he certainly is closer in net worth to the people of Mass. vs. Kennedy and the Grim Reaper Kerry. He is a Republican that is not a draft dodger so that's refreshing! He's in the National Guard currently still. He also has worked on, and passed increased veterans health and education benefits. Again, kudos to him on that. He posed naked in a Cosmo centerfold. *insert wolf whistle*

As I mentioned before he voted for universal health care in his state to pass it, said "gay marriage is legal in his state and therefore and shouldn't be overturned" even though he "would prefer to see civil unions for gay people". He also doesn't believe the abortion laws should be overturned. He voted for election day registration (sometimes referred to as motor voter) which passed (a Democratic position). He voted and failed to weaken the state constitution (Republican position). Voted against making education a state governor position. (Republican position.) Voted against making Massage Therapists licensing and advertising, which would have made sexual massage advertising illegal. (I guess at least he's not a hypocrite of posing naked and cracking down on sex workers. Not sure which party this position is.)

Very interesting background. However, I don't think this man could have won as a "Republican" in any state that isn't bluer than blue, liberal. Certainly not in Texas or anywhere else in the south. I guess the real test will be when he goes to Washington will he continue to represent the people's of Mass. or do the dirty work of the Republican neo-con party. Time will tell.
 
AGM100
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:04 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Which is far better than Bush scratching his ass on issues like WMD in Iraq (he decided there was so no one would think he was soft?), the economy, major corporate failures, the financial sector falling apart, etc.

Wow the libs are in a foul mood today ..... I was simply stating what was actually said by a democrat leader . They do not know how to create jobs ... other than government jobs . They do not understand that it is the risk takers , and movers in our society who create jobs.
Either they do not understand it ... or like Rush says ... they are doing it on purpose in-order to have government take over more and more.

Anyway , you need not worry .... now that the short lived excitement of just simply a good political win for my side has worn off. I am afraid that the ship is still headed for your dream island of socialized medicine , welfare for all , and the security of knowing uncle SAM will pick up your tab. The country is so far over on the scale of dependent citizens that it is inevitable that it ends up some kind of quasi socialist union whatever economy. I am still pressing forward with personal purchases , but overall I would still say that Americas future is nothing more than high taxes , and government regulations...not conducive to long term investment.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
MoltenRock
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:18 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters in the state say health care was the most important factor in their voting decision. Brown made it clear in the closing days of the campaign that he intended to go to Washington to vote against the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats.

Dubious polling results aside, why were Mass. people against this? Because they already have a much, much better healthcare plan in place, right there, right now, than the bill under consideration. Additionally, that bill would cost them more as taxpayers even though they would opt out of the healthcare reform bill. It's a no brainer why a Mass. citizen would be against it. Get nothing, pay more. Sound good to you? No? Exactly, me neither.

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
They don't have to end it. It is on track to be bankrupt all by itself in about 7 years.

*sigh* Come on dude. Stop playing partisan hackery. You know darn well why Medicare is now on the skids. It's because Republicans passed a drug benefit without paying for it under Bush/Cheney. It's costing over $1 trillion and yet, it needs no additional funds? Come on! The way both Medicare and Social Security are set up are projected payouts vs. projected pay ins. You can't pay out more, without requiring people to pay in more. It's an unbalanced equation. All Bush/Cheney & Company did was give out candy, but didn't set money aside for the diabetes treatment & dental cavities. Ie, sold assets to pay short term obligations.

Quoting Texan (Reply 87):
I agree that they need to start over and work at bringing down costs. Tort reform should definitely be on the table, but it should be easier to deal with insurance companies. Of the doctors I have talked to (9 or 10), all of them employ someone whose only job is to deal with the insurance companies, fill out each company's forms, and make sure the doctor gets paid.

Yup. And it's not usually "a person", but rather persons. The cost of private insurance compliance and paperwork processing is about 30% of a doctor's expense. Medicare requires about 15%. And you are correct about tort reform, and the Republican's could have gotten this in this bill had they merely played ball with the President. No, instead they decided "fuck the American people, they're stupid anyway, so let's just say NO and we can get back into power just like we did in 1994. Oh and hey, should we try to impeach Obama yet? That's better than a threat of filibuster at hamstringing government!"
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:38 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 125):
Wow the libs are in a foul mood today ..... I was simply stating what was actually said by a democrat leader . They do not know how to create jobs ... other than government jobs . They do not understand that it is the risk takers , and movers in our society who create jobs.
Either they do not understand it ... or like Rush says ... they are doing it on purpose in-order to have government take over more and more.

What the heck are you talking about Dittohead?

Pray tell what other kind of "government created jobs" can the government directly create?

How can you say that with a straight face? You can't believe that. It's trash talk and nothing more. What's next? "Your mama..." insults?
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:23 pm



Quoting Texan (Reply 120):
So the government should either regulate how much private companies pay for drugs or purchase drugs from the manufacturer and resell them to companies at a reduced rate? And you would be in favor of that?

The government could either pick up part of the cost of R&D which drives up the price, insure the pharma's against outrageous lawsuits when the FDA has approved a drug for use, or place fair market values on the price the pharma can charge. There are other more technical options but those are the three basics.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 126):
Dubious polling results aside,

It's always dubious when you don't want to believe the results.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 126):
Additionally, that bill would cost them more as taxpayers even though they would opt out of the healthcare reform bill. It's a no brainer why a Mass. citizen would be against it. Get nothing, pay more. Sound good to you? No? Exactly, me neither.

Which is why Sen. elect Brown ran against the current plans. For some reason AG Coakley decided to run a campaign based on costing her constituents more money and look where it got her.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 126):
You know darn well why Medicare is now on the skids. It's because Republicans passed a drug benefit without paying for it under Bush/Cheney. It's costing over $1 trillion and yet, it needs no additional funds? Come on!

I know damn well that even without medicare advantage Medicare was on the road to insolvency. Medicare advantage may have speeded up the arrival date, that is all it did.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 126):
the Republican's could have gotten this in this bill had they merely played ball with the President.

 redflag  The President made it crystal clear in his speech on health care before the joint session of Congress that he wasn't interested in seeing tort reform included in the legislation. At the very most he was willing to toss a bone.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...ession-of-Congress-on-Health-Care/

Now, finally, many in this chamber -- particularly on the Republican side of the aisle -- have long insisted that reforming our medical malpractice laws can help bring down the cost of health care. (Applause.) Now -- there you go. There you go. Now, I don't believe malpractice reform is a silver bullet, but I've talked to enough doctors to know that defensive medicine may be contributing to unnecessary costs. (Applause.) So I'm proposing that we move forward on a range of ideas about how to put patient safety first and let doctors focus on practicing medicine. (Applause.) I know that the Bush administration considered authorizing demonstration projects in individual states to test these ideas. I think it's a good idea, and I'm directing my Secretary of Health and Human Services to move forward on this initiative today. (Applause.)

BTW, how are those demonstration projects going? Bet their right there on the front burner right?

http://www.medicadepot.com/news-podr.html?id=146

The White House quickly followed up on President Obama's pledge to authorize medical liability demonstration projects, announcing Sept. 17 the availability of $25 million in grants to be doled out to states by the Dept. of Health and Human Services.

Wow, $500,000 to each State if broken down equally. Now that's really putting your money where your mouth is. I think we know whose hip pocket the President and the democratic party in general are in.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
gatorfan
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:43 pm



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 92):
Not so. If the House passes the Senate bill, Brown will have a say on every procedural vote during the reconciliation process.

Only if the bill needs reconciliation. If the House adopts the Senate version without amendment, there is nothing to reconcile. Therefore, the option to pass the Senate bill AS IS would freeze out Brown.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Read it again, it says Citibank paid off the TARP money to the government on 23 December 2009, about a month ago.

What part of this don't you understand?

Quote:
The U.S. Treasury continues to hold warrants to buy Citi common stock issued as part of the TARP investment and 7.7 billion common shares, which it said it plans to sell in 2010.

Taken straight out of Citi's press release.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...0095012309073343/y81154exv99w1.htm

I never understand why people continue to highlight their own ignorance when they are directed to the correct answer.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:51 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 104):
Think about it. She got a stimulus bill thru, ethics reform, a brand new budget, healthcare reform, a comprehensive energy bill, increased veterans aid and college aid, comprehensive financial industry reform, and a few others, and this was all by last fall. What has the Senate passed? A budget, and the stimulus package after they gutted almost 1/2 of the stimulus portions of it and replaced it with tax breaks to get Republican votes, it got 1 and only 1 Republican vote from Independent - Republican Sen. Olympia Snowe.

The Stimulus bill?  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  You do know that only 30% of the $787B got spent in 2009, don't you? It paid off Hillary's campagin debts (yes, her campaign moiney launderer got some $6M-$12M), it build a tunnel in FL so the poor turtles can cross the streets in safety. People on SS got a wopping $250 to buy them off for not getting a 2010 pay raise (even though Congress did), it created NO JOBs, according to ther most recent White House reports. It increased the salary of College Proffessors. and built nothing that was "shovel ready". the "Big O" promised the stimulus bill would keeo unemployment from going above 8%, it is at 10%, officially (17.3% if you count those who gave up looking for work).

TAX and Crap is going to do nothing but increase home energy bills, the costs of gasoline, and make people like AlGore richer (he is already a Billionaire).

Veterans aid has not been INCREASED, it has been DECREASED. I am still fighting the VA.

Finance reform? Where? What?

Health care reform? Have you read the House bill? If you did, you would be way ahead of most in the House, including Pelosi.

She did get a bigger USAF airplane, a C-32, and sometimes a C-37.

Tax breaks? What tax breaks?

You didn't mention she also helped to push through the bill to raise the national debt to $13T, and spending more $1.4T than we had in the budget, in 2009

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 109):
Also, "pork" is a term used loosely. Your pork is another districts badly needed funds to build/fix ____________. Likewise, badly needed projects in your state / district are other people's definition of pork.

You mean like all those bike paths? The bridge to nowhere (Republican pork)? To LA purchase or the NB buyout? What about her husband tuna cannery government help, yeap, she got money for herself and her husband.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 109):
Quoting Luckyone (Reply 105):
Throw on top of all that the continuation of the "Bush lied, we were intentionally deceived" and the almost monthly "she-stepped-in-a-pile-of-doo-and-needs-to-shut-her-mouth" episodes and snafus I just don't think she's doing a good job.


You are confusing "job" with media exposure and if you like her personality. Her job, as it is defined consists of:

We know what her job is, to bad we don't have anyone competent and honest to do it. Bush didn't lie, how many times is she going to beat that dead horse? What about her lies about the CIA briefings she got, then denied it, and the CIA produced the records where she signed in?

Addressing the media, and informing the people IS HER JOB. To bad she is not very good at it.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 104):
Pelosi is getting legislation passed and thru the House. Do you not like the House version of these bills now waiting to die on the vine over at the toxic waste dump known as the Senate?

That kind of legislation is the kind I want to die on the vine. Who is going to pay for it?

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 111):
Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 109):
You are confusing "job" with media exposure and if you like her personality. Her job, as it is defined consists of:

Her personality and the way she deals with the media are most certainly part of her job description. She is the SPEAKER of the House, therefore she represents ME (and you, and millions of others). It is, and has been my stated and substantiated opinion (an entitlement that you have been trying to yank out from under my feet thank you very much) that she and the House of Representatives that she is leading is not doing a good job representing me and the majority of the people in the United States. Yes she calls votes, and does the running of the House, but she has also IN MY OPINION been abusing that power to satisfy her agenda and the positions she takes.

No, he isn't, Luckyone hit that nail on the head. Pelosi is a lying bitch, period.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 107):
There are plenty of studies out there showing that many people vote on basis of trivial matters such as looks and ability to read off of a teleprompter. Many people are so very easily swayed by superficial factors such as voice rhythm and pregnant pauses that it becomes a damn talent show.

I agree with that. But there are also many INFORMED people in America that vote.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 109):
It's just like the difference between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" ala Reagan. Someone's "freedom fighter" is another's "terrorist"

How many "freedom fighters" murder innocent women and children? How many hijack airplanes and drive them into buildings? You know nothing of President Reagan, he was our best President since Andrew Jackson, and maybe since George Washington.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 110):
Obama is very pro-Europe hence health care reform and the Copenhagen convention but in short it's difficult to make the US to be like a Scandinavian country. There are way too many people in the US and the taxes are not high enough to acclaim such a high standard form of living which certain countries in Europe possess.

If you think your taxes are not high enough, you can donate more money to the US Government. The US has the highest living standard in the world, why do we want to have government provided care cradle to grave like Europe? In case you have not heard, the recession is worse there than here. What high standard of living does the EU have? Have you ever been to Eastern Europe?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 112):
Nothing is free, but on a per capita basis I pay about half what Americans pay, and for a better system.



Quoting Arrow (Reply 112):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
so why do we need to do what Japan, France or any other country does?

You don't. But you might ask yourselves, if your private enterprise system is so wonderful, why no other developed country in the world has emulated it. Could it be that maybe, just maybe, you could learn something from them? I know, perish the thought.

Well if Canada and other countries around the world has a better health care system, why do so many Canadians, Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, and Aussies who can afford it come to the US for medical care?

How many Americans rush to Canada, Japan, EU, or China for medical care?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 112):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
Correst, the US is not a socialist state, nor do we want to be. Unfortunately we do have a socialist POTUS, Speaker of the House, and Senate Majority Leader. The "change" for that has begin in Massachusetts and will sweep to other 49 states (or is it 57 states?).

That you all think Obama is a socialist is bizarre beyond belief. There's something drastically wrong with your education system if Obama can be cast as a socialist.

You want him? We will gladely send him and you decide.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 113):
Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):
The people have spoken

Those may be ironic words when we have a MINORITY obstructing with filibusters what the MAJORITY elected party tries to do.

Have you ever read the US Conststution? It is in there so the majority cannot always overrun the minority.

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 114):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Correct, Dreadnought. Baroque also forgot to mention the highest cities for murder, rape, assaults, etc. are in cities controlled by Democrats like Washington, Detroit, Newark, LA, Chicargo, NY, Philly, Kansas City, Miami, etc.

You must be kidding. So having a Democratic mayor automatically produces more violent crime? Really? The mayor of New York City, by the way, is not a Democrat and the mayor of Los Angeles, while a member of the Democratic party, was not elected as a Democrat because local officials around here don't run with a party affiliation.

Correct, Bloomberg is not a Democrat, he is a Democrat wanna be. Go ahead compare crime stats in D vs. R cities? How about Dallas (D) and Fort Worth(R)? San Antonio (mostly R) and Houston (mostly D)?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting AGM100 (Reply 89):
The democrats are scratching their heads on the economy , i

Which is far better than Bush scratching his ass on issues like WMD in Iraq (he decided there was so no one would think he was soft?), the economy, major corporate failures, the financial sector falling apart, etc.

So you would rather fight the GWOT here than in Iraq and Afghanistan? The economy decline began with Barny Frank playing with his Freddie and his Fanny back in 1998. The financial failures began in the EU, not the US.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting Seb146 (Reply 90):
Stole how?

There was a mandatory recount and the counts changed.

As for as taking legal action, can we say 2000, Bush and Florida?



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
Just keep up withj law suits eliminating certain counties until the count comes out your way, then stop.

Bush 2000 brought that process to the forefront. No good crying about it now.

trying to rewrite histroy? It was AlGore who brought the elections into the Broward County Courts, then the FL Supreme Court. Bush went to the SCOTUS to overturn the FLSC's attempt at wrtiting election law after the election and doing something the state legislature is suppose to do, write laws.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting AirStairs (Reply 92):
If the House passes the Senate bill, Brown will have a say on every procedural vote during the reconciliation process.

If the House passes the Senate version unchanged then the bill goes directly to Obama for signature. The only way the Senate gets involved is if the House makes changes to the Senate version.

The Senate bill has already changed. The "Big O" has exempted the union Cadillac health care plans from being taxed until 2016. The Senate bill imposes the taxes at the same time all of us begin paying the taxes, as soom as ObamaCare is signed by him.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Joe Biden, the unscene VP

After the horrors of Cheney it's rather nice to see the VP sitting back a bit, watching the President breathe, etc.

The Cheney concept appears to have led to a situation where Bush was the President and Cheney was the CEO.

I would rather have someone out there doing the people's work, rather than someone who is holding secret and unopen meetings on transparency in government and talking to czars who are accountable to no one.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Want more?

I'll happily take a few dozen czars over a trillion dollar plus war in Iraq because of WMDs that were not there.

Or another Great Depression.

Enjoy yourself, then as the "Big O" is driving us into a depression. I would rather have a war in Iraq than here. This is Obama's economy, not Bush's.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 106):
Do either one of you know, or understand how the POTUS is elected?

Certainly not by the total vote of the people - other wise we might not be in the Great Depression. We certainly wouldn't have been sent to Iraq so our military could be chasing their tails looking for WMD that we not there.

Are you saying that if McCain had won, we would not have a collapsing economy today?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 121):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
Unfortunately we do have a socialist POTUS

WTF is wrong with you Republicans? Can't you tell the difference between Socialism and American Liberalism? Seriously, you're embarrassing your country. Time to take a serious look at international politics.

The only embarrassment to the country is the umwavering blind followers of liberalism. Yes, ever conservitive knows the difference, what is embarrassing is no liberal knows thge difference.

Look at international politics? Which country? Pick one that is doing wonderful, gets along with everyone because they are luvy-duvy? What is embarrassing is the stupidity of liberals who think the grass is greener in the EU. Well, if you truely think that is true, why don't you live there?

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 122):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 102):
It happened in 3 blue states, VA, NJ, and now MA. Do you see a trend here?

As much of a trend as seeing all the states involved have seaports or international airports. Please explain how that can possibly make a difference.

All three of those states voted solidly not only for Obama in 2008, but for Democrats in the House, Senate, and Governors (VA did not have a Governor's race in 2008).

Why didn't you say all three states have pretty mountains and beaches, too. That makes about as much sense as talking about there airports and seaports.  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
texan
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:02 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
All three of those states voted solidly not only for Obama in 2008, but for Democrats in the House, Senate, and Governors

Virginia is a conservative state that normally goes for moderate to conservative Democrats or Republicans. New Jersey, thankfully, rebelled against an extremely corrupt state Democratic political establishment. And Brown ran a much better campaign and is a moderate Republican who voted for the state health care system in Massachusetts.

And it doesn't help the Democrats haven't been able to do much since gaining control of the House, Senate, and White House. Discord in the Democratic Party plus insane Republican obstructionism has doomed just about every bill.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
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OA412
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:08 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
Unfortunately we do have a socialist POTUS

No we don't.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 71):
The slide of the United States of America into the mediocrity of socialism

 

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 85):
Now let's add a few more:

Venezuela: 58.0
South Africa: 37.0
Brazil: 25.7
Russia: 16.5

Your point? The United States is a western nation and, as such, should be compared to other western nations not to developing nations. It is absolutely outrageous that we have a homicide rate so out of tune with the rest of the west.

Quoting Texan (Reply 79):
The problem with voting for the lesser of two evils, of course, is that you are still voting for evil I tend to vote for the candidate I think is the least corruptible and most susceptible to reasoned debate.

Right you are which is why I tend to do exactly what you do. I'll often vote against a Democratic candidate if I belive a third party candidate better represents my views.

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 114):
You must be kidding. So having a Democratic mayor automatically produces more violent crime? Really? The mayor of New York City, by the way, is not a Democrat and the mayor of Los Angeles, while a member of the Democratic party, was not elected as a Democrat because local officials around here don't run with a party affiliation.

LOL really. That's a new one on me. The history of Democratic leadership in these cities notwithstanding, until someone can produce an actual study indicating that there is a direct correlation between Democratic leadership and high rates of crime, claiming such is nothing but flawed reasoning in the service of your particular viewpoint.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 121):
WTF is wrong with you Republicans? Can't you tell the difference between Socialism and American Liberalism? Seriously, you're embarrassing your country. Time to take a serious look at international politics.

 checkmark  I hope that many people take these words to heart. The claim that Democrats are socialists is not only tired, it's factually incorrect and it only serves to embarass those who seek to repeat it as dogma.

Quoting Texan (Reply 131):
And it doesn't help the Democrats haven't been able to do much since gaining control of the House, Senate, and White House. Discord in the Democratic Party plus insane Republican obstructionism has doomed just about every bill.

 checkmark  Excellent analysis.

[Edited 2010-01-20 16:19:17]
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
Arrow
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:17 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
How many Americans rush to Canada, Japan, EU, or China for medical care?

Don't forget Mexico and India. From a recent CNN story citing a Deloitte study:

"Next year alone, an estimated 6 million Americans will travel abroad for surgery, according to a 2008 Deloitte study. "Medical care in countries such as India, Thailand and Singapore can cost as little as 10 percent of the cost of comparable care in the United States," the report found."

Even coming to Canada will save 30-60%, but it isn't encouraged here -- yet. There are couple of high profile docs up here who are salivating over the prospect of luring Americans north. And you do take advantage of our cheap drugs from time to time.

You're not going to win the medical tourism argument because the traffic flows in all directions. Yes, people go to the US for treatment, just as millions of Americans go elsewhere. If you don't fix your system pronto, it'll be tens of millions.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
nonrevman
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:17 am

Being from Texas, I realize that my state was not even represented in the final closed door "negotiations" because the two Republican senators were locked out along with the rest of the party members.

I think many have realized the danger that a single party supermajority in the government can cause. The constitution does specify "checks and balances" between the branches of government, but this is not enough if a single party controls everything. I much prefer having political parties balancing each other to place a limit on government.

The original poster makes a good point that the parties need to work together to find viable health care reform. Something that both parties can agree on is more likely to be right for this country rather than succumbing to the will of the majority party. Who knows? Maybe the differences will be too great to pass a health care bill, but I think that no law is better than the wrong law.
 
luckyone
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:28 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
I agree with that. But there are also many INFORMED people in America that vote.

Oh absolutely. I was just pointing out that there is an alarming number of the aforementioned type of voters. Welcome to my RR list.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
What high standard of living does the EU have? Have you ever been to Eastern Europe?

Obviously he has not, or if he has he was not paying attention. Otherwise he would not be spewing this drivel. I've lived in Western Europe and the former USSR and the comparisons are shocking. The people there, however, do amazing things with what little they have, but the limitations win in the end. Also, Sweden for a long time had one of, if not the highest cancer death rates in the world due to its health care rationing. The UK also features in the same score.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 132):
It is absolutely outrageous that we have a homicide rate so out of tune with the rest of the west.

Well if we would do something about inner city violence and gang culture instead of celebrating in our music and media that would go a long way to solve some of the problem. Young kids in both the burbs and the ghettos need positive role models and 50 Cent ain't it. Another huge step we could take is to legalize most drugs and let the problem of stupidity take care of itself. Legalize and regulate the damn things and a good chunk of violence will disappear almost overnight. It's well known that most inner city violence (where most of these numbers come from) is drug related. Hmm.....

[Edited 2010-01-20 16:35:48 by luckyone]
 
gatorfan
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:56 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
The Senate bill has already changed. The "Big O" has exempted the union Cadillac health care plans from being taxed until 2016. The Senate bill imposes the taxes at the same time all of us begin paying the taxes, as soom as ObamaCare is signed by him.

The President has no power to add or detract anything from legislation. He can say he won't sign it, but the Senate bill as passed is could be taken up tomorrow by the House, passed with a simple majority vote and then sent to the President for his signature. Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong.

Look up the status of HR 3590.
 
Ken777
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:03 am



Quoting Arrow (Reply 112):

Funny, there's a good piece in the Wall Street Journal today about how the US has slipped to #8 on the world's list of countries with the highest level of economic freedom. Particularly interesting is that the countries in front of you (e.g. Canada is #7) all have "socialized" health care systems, and ran their finances much better than the US did.
So much for liberty and freedom.

Now that is funny, in a rather sad way. #8! At least we're ahead of Cuba. Aren't we?

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
What flavor is the koolaid today?

The one that was put out when Brown voted for the mandatory health care in MA. Remember that one?

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
They don't have to end it. It is on track to be bankrupt all by itself in about 7 years.

We can extend that simply by shutting down Medicare Advantage. That was supposed to be cheaper because it was privately run - but it's running about 15% more expensive than plain old Medicare.

Get rid of that insurance hand out and Medicare lasts longer. Then start looking at other areas where the government can do it for less. Add more years.

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
I'd be willing to bet that same person is also submitting paperwork to Medicare for re-imbursement and that the paperwork for that is just as complicated as any of the private insurance companies.

Everything I've read has indicated that Doctors get paid faster and with less BS from Medicare than they do from private companies.

So let's pass laws requiring insurance companies to use the same procedures, codes and formats for filing claims with private companies as doctors do with Medicare. Then let's start requiring insurance companies to start paying interest on claims when their payment exceeds the standard times doctors experience with Medicare.

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
I'd much prefer that so my information remains with, and in control by, me.

I much prefer my information be available anywhere a doctor treating me might be - especially in emergencies.

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
That could be done via regulation, no need for an expensive government program.

Except that the Republican Congress made it illegal for the government to negotiate discounts on government purchases. Could that be why people believe that the Pharma industry wrote the bill for the Republicans?

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
Yes. No longer does the democratic majority have a fillibuster proof majority in the Senate.

And we need to go back to the traditional filibuster procedures, with Senators actually standing up on the Senate floor and filibustering. The approach today is basically candy ass, be it a Democrat or Republican that is holding up the Senate. We also need to be able to have our Senator stand up and vote to end or continue the filibuster. Put his or her name on the process so we can clearly see it.

Quoting DXing (Reply 117):
Remember, Medicare is the biggest payment denier of the bunch.

Not when compared to how our health insurance denied payment of chemo treatments for my wife's acute leukemia.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 118):
It is the poor who habitually elect Democrats---yet they are still poor

Look at the states, not cities. Normally the states handle things that have to do with poverty. Food stamps, Medicaid, etc.

Quoting Texan (Reply 120):
So the government should either regulate how much private companies pay for drugs or purchase drugs from the manufacturer and resell them to companies at a reduced rate? And you would be in favor of that?

Wouldn't bother me, but Republicans ensured that wouldn't happen - no negotiated discounts under the Pharma written/Republican Rx Bill.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 124):
Since I paid more attention to his political beliefs vs. persona of self I had no idea.

I just saw the bit about the truck last night. Brownie even mentioned taking his truck to DC. Being from OK we tend to see a lot of trucks so I put him in the "good old boy" group.  Smile

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 124):
He posed naked in a Cosmo centerfold.

So we know how he got the Gay vote.  cheerful 

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 125):
Wow the libs are in a foul mood today

Not in a foul mood at all. My (most enjoyable) years in Australia taught me that political parties in the US are closer to each other than most Yanks believe.

I think Brown will present some interesting challenges to watch between his swearing in an when he goes up for election again.

Will he pass the Republican purity test? That is going to be most interesting.

WIll he work hard to keep the independent voters in MA? Becoming a moderate that will generate the ire of the hard line conservatives?

Will Rush tell him what to do and will he follow orders?

What does irritate me is this belief some have that, since Bush/Cheney are no longer in office the Republicans are not purified of all the problems that they caused. Look how Cheney comes out flapping his lips and the conservatives are floating with joy.

And I think it's funny that you can still call a guy who voted Republican as often as Democrat a "liberal". Must be because I don't pass the Purity Test. Thought I was a moderate, but I know I'll never give a rat's ass about taking a purity test from either end of the political spectrum
 
Falcon84
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:12 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):

I agree with that. But there are also many INFORMED people in America that vote.

Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.  rotfl 
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
luckyone
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:15 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.

I wouldn't worry too much. At the very least she'll have a year on FoxNews to open her trap and give plenty of evidence to the contrary. Unless she winks...

[Edited 2010-01-20 17:31:22 by luckyone]
 
ltbewr
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:26 am

I have seen a number of views here and elsewhere (political websites, opinion programs) as to why Brown won and Cokaley lost. One simple and important set of points as to why he won was stated by Brown himself very well - 'Terror, Taxes and Health Care'. Some commentators notes this simple 'sound bite' phrase probably caught a lot of independent voters and even some borderline Democrats.

Terror - The playing of the 'terror card', as almost all Republicans have done since 9/11 may be a point underestimated by many commentators. Brown took advantage of the questions raised as to the handling of the 'underpants bomber' (not placing into the military tribual process, failing to have terrorist specialist FBI interregators involved instead of general ones as discussed in a Congressional hearing today) the planned NYC Federal Court trials of some major terror suspects and the attempts to shut down Gitmo and transfer detainees there to within the USA proper in Illinois. This is especially effective with women and many who vote believe that any anti-American terrorist does not deserve any human or civil rights in our law or international agreement. Brown then is against the Obama policies that man see as wrong.

Taxes - MA is one of the highest taxing states in the USA overall and one of the worst after New Jersey as to property taxes. People want anything that can be done to cut their taxes just as their houses dropped off the cliff in values, they pay goes down, yet their taxes keep going up. Republicans are more seen as willing to cut taxes or least hold them down, cut spending vs the Democrats who won't.

Health Care - Many don't like MA's plan, it's costs and it's mandates and don't want it for the national level.

There are of course other factors in his win. A weak Demo canidate and her campaign, the desire to 'change horses' after many years of a Democratic lock on both US Senate seats in MA and Browns ads that protrayed him as a 'middle class' (yet still very right wing on many issues).

It will be interesting to see how Brown will work out. He will have to face election again in 2012 for a full term. Maybe he will have to be balanced as he is from a somewhat left of center state. Maybe the Democrats will figure out a better canidate and campaign by then.
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:29 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.

 rotfl  I'm pretty sure that her little stint on Fox will be the final nail in her political coffin.
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Flighty
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:40 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
Why was the 10 year point picked? Because in year 11 and every year after that, it costs huge amounts of money. That costs is going to be paid by my grandchildren, as well as yours.

I agree, the current plan is horrible and way too expensive. It should be a *lot* cheaper. Which is within the power of the US congress, if they wish it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 80):
Do it step by step. This whale of a bill was to much, too fast.

But the American people are probably not powerful enough to take those steps. Even if they might want to, the power holders in the sickness industry and pill industries will not allow changes. We are already seeing how the pill industry can replace national leaders at will. Or, they can publish some "medical findings" in a "science journal" funded by big pharma, while the sickness industry fails to raise Americans' life expectancy over that of Cuba, while vacuuming up cubic miles of money for their own lifestyle. It's just business, baby.
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:45 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 115):
Quoting AirStairs (Reply 92):
If the House passes the Senate bill, Brown will have a say on every procedural vote during the reconciliation process.

If the House passes the Senate version unchanged then the bill goes directly to Obama for signature. The only way the Senate gets involved is if the House makes changes to the Senate version.

Yes, I know, but there is no way the House is going to pass it unless the prez and leadership outright promise the opportunity to make modifications through reconciliation.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.

Why keep bringing Palin into this? Are there really that many people that think she is President material? I certainly don't. I get the sense that this is a straw man (in the same way as attacking GWB is). I/We are not promoting or arguing for either, but you are attacking them as if I/we are.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:07 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.

Yea almost as funny as thinking Obama is president material. I found it staggering the day after a left state has spit in the face of the DNC to tell them they are not on board with the "change" an inexperience junior senator with a terrible voting record promised them. My lord in every thread about politics you have to drag Sarah Palin into it to try to makes yourselves feel better. Well truth is even though Obama can read a teleprompter and has some fancy college piece of paper saying he is real smart the fact is he isn't. He is a utter failure and worse a disigenius politician which is why he will be a one termer. Keep up the good work Falcon.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3877
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:20 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
He is a utter failure and worse a disigenius politician which is why he will be a one termer

It is indeed my opinion (and preference) that Obama become the next Jimmy Carter. Elected on the heels of a massively unpopular administration only to turn out to be more disastrous then his predecessor could dream to be.

It's quite funny that Carter is viewed by a great many Georgians as an epic disappointment, and most of us just close our eyes and shake our heads whenever his name is mentioned. Perhaps Illinois natives will do the same in twenty years time? The crazy grandfather you can't shut up...

[Edited 2010-01-20 18:24:13 by luckyone]
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:38 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
The one that was put out when Brown voted for the mandatory health care in MA. Remember that one?

And he realizes now how Obama care will repeat the worst of the mistakes his State made.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/01/20/sco...s-david-gratzer.html?feed=rss_home

What makes Senator-elect Brown different is that his mandate isn't just a partisan protest. Brown has articulated his own pro-market views on health reform. In 2006 Gov. Mitt Romney brought universal health coverage to Massachusetts with a health insurance exchange, a legal requirement to buy insurance and subsidies for lower-income families. Brown supported those reforms as a state senator. But as a U.S. senate candidate, Brown also acknowledged RomneyCare's worst flaw: Politically motivated insurance regulations had driven health insurance prices far higher than the national average. ObamaCare, for the record, has plagiarized the worst of Massachusetts' reforms, setting the stage for a future in which everyone's insurance will be hyper-regulated.

I'd rather work with someone who has been there and done that then someone who just wants to make "history" and doesn't care how much it hurts the majority of citizens.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
We can extend that simply by shutting down Medicare Advantage.

And the net result is exactly the same, Medicare is going broke and already has a huge unfunded liability in IOU's that the government has no way to pay for.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
Then start looking at other areas where the government can do it for less. Add more years.

So far this administration has only talked about taking away from medicare, not a word about doing it with less.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
Everything I've read has indicated that Doctors get paid faster and with less BS from Medicare than they do from private companies

So you're are going to deny what's been proven already? Just like to throw the crap against the wall and hope it will stick don't you? Looks like you don't read much. Care to provide a link to dispute the following which has been posted before and acknowledged by you????

http://healthcare-economist.com/2008...s-than-commerical-health-insurers/

“Medicare was the most likely to deny any part of a claim, with a 6.9 percent rate. Aetna was a close second at 6.8 percent while the others ranged from 2.7 percent to 4.6 percent.


Coventry Health had the fastest median turnaround between receiving a claim and responding, at four days, according to the AMA. Medicare and CIGNA took a median 14 days; Humana and Aetna, 13 days; Health Net, 11; United Healthcare, 10 and Anthem, seven.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
I much prefer my information be available anywhere a doctor treating me might be - especially in emergencies.

Can't get much closer than a braclet or dog tag. Don't even have to be in a hospital to access it then. An ems tech with a lap top could forward everything from the scene. Treatment could begin even sooner.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
Except that the Republican Congress made it illegal for the government to negotiate discounts on government purchases. Could that be why people believe that the Pharma industry wrote the bill for the Republicans?

Perhaps you need to check whose bed the pharma corps are sleeping in today. Besides that , what I posted had nothing to do with negotiating price but rather setting price levels backed by government insurance against outrageous lawsuits on drugs that the FDA approves.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
And we need to go back to the traditional filibuster procedures, with Senators actually standing up on the Senate floor and filibustering.

Fine by me. Under those rules the Senate majority leader, or whomever is acting as Senate pro tempore couldn't gavel down a Senator trying to make a point the way that clown from Minnesota did. Perhaps then the GOP could actually have a chance to make their case for reasonable health care reform on the Senate floor. It may be the only way.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
Not when compared to how our health insurance denied payment of chemo treatments for my wife's acute leukemia.

Here we go again, of course your wife's experience is the sum total and exact same experience as every other citizen has had with their insurance company.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.

And it explains how informed the liberal members are that they still live in abject fear of her speaking in public.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:49 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
He is a utter failure and worse a disigenius politician which is why he will be a one termer.

Let me guess: you said the same thing about Bill Clinton in 1994, didn't you?
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
cws818
Posts: 824
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:42 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:51 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 146):

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.

And it explains how informed the liberal members are that they still live in abject fear of her speaking in public.

Abject fear? Ha! Who said conservatives have no sense of humor...

[Edited 2010-01-20 18:51:22 by cws818]
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
Ken777
Posts: 10153
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:14 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
The government could either pick up part of the cost of R&D which drives up the price, insure the pharma's against outrageous lawsuits when the FDA has approved a drug for use, or place fair market values on the price the pharma can charge.

The government already invests in R&D, with a lot of Doctors and Medical Clinics using the money for effective research. Unfortunately when the research is completed the papers are sent to private publications/journals and, after they are published, you and I cannot get access to that information unless we pay for the article. Bunch of crap and one reason why I'm against tax funded R&D in the Pharma industry unless there is a major reduction in costs to the patient.

Lawsuits will not be that big a deal in costs. Take Viagra. (As an example, not a suggestion  Smile ) Some dude has a problem and sues. If the jury goes with the dude who can't get it up then the wilted willie gets some cash. But compare that money to the billions that the company will bring in through sales. Jury judgements are probably a fraction of the advertising budget. Watch TV for a while and you'll see sufficient drug ads to get a clear understanding of what outrageous costs are driving up drug costs.

And you'll not get any fair market costs on medications until you (1) allow government negotiations on their purchases and (2) bringing in medications from overseas.

Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
Which is why Sen. elect Brown ran against the current plans

And why he voted for it at the state level when MA brought in their program?

Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
The President made it crystal clear in his speech on health care before the joint session of Congress that he wasn't interested in seeing tort reform included in the legislation.

Tort reform seems to come ahead of helping people who need care.

It's amazing that we can TRUST a jury in a capital punishment case to send someone to Death Row, but we fear these same people when it comes to a civil trial.

Death sentence -v- judging a malpractice case, or some other civil case.

Go figure - that has got to be one of the great mysteries of this country.

Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
BTW, how are those demonstration projects going? Bet their right there on the front burner right?

Got slowed down, just as health reform got slowed down. After Obama signs some health care reform it will be possible to develop a program that works under health care reform. Until then it is a waste of time and money to consider it.

Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
Wow, $500,000 to each State if broken down equally.

Who said that all states need to be under the program? Texas already has tort reform (with NO COST REDUCTIONS GAINED) and therefor has no need to be included.

Best to look at one or two small states with moderate malpractice litigation and trial something there.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
Aussies who can afford it come to the US for medical care?

Won't cover all the countries you mentioned, but I can tell you that if you needed treatment for obstructive sleep apnea before it was approved in the US you'd be heading to Australia, where the treatment was discovered and developed. Need orthoscopic surgery before the FDA blessed it? Head to Australia. Asthma? The Aussies were ahead when I married my wife - a local Dr. went off his face when he learned how long the Aussies had a certain medication that was just being released in the US.

How about a total hip replacement? My Aussie trained physical therapist wife was selected over the US trained therapists to watch the first one performed in this city, to develop the rehab program after talking with the surgeon and to treat all the patients having the surgery. When I say "the first one performed in this city" it's because the top bone doc in the city went to the UK to learn how to do it. Seems total hip replacement was developed there.

Heart transplants? Started in South Africa by Christian Barnard, an exceptional heart surgeon.

It's fine to be proud of some of the medical care available here, but there is also a need to understand and recognize that there is also excellence in other countries.

People with a lot of money can travel anywhere to get treated by the top people in the field. And it won't always be to the US.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
So you would rather fight the GWOT here than in Iraq and Afghanistan? The economy decline began with Barny Frank playing with his Freddie and his Fanny back in 1998. The financial failures began in the EU, not the US.

I've said before that I felt Afghanistan was "forgotten" when Bush/Cheney went into Iraq. I do believe it was for oil and to soothe over the Cheney/Fumsfeld hurt feelings from Bush I not going "all the way". WHile Bush turned his back on Afghanistan Obama has put that as a higher priority than Iraq (finally). He ordered more troops there within a month of taking office, and more are to follow. More drone based missiles have been fired at the enemy in Afghanistan in Obama's first year than in all of Bush's years. Afghanistan is finally getting the attention it has long needed.

As far as the Great Recession goes, it started on Bush's watch. When I was in the Navy my Commanding Officers not only enjoyed teh privileges of Command they took full responsibility for their Command. No passing the buck, but then I had exceptional COs on both ships I served on.

Bush/Cheney, on the other hand, haven't really accepted responsibility for the problems the grew into record intensity during their watch. Forget Truman's "The Buck Stops Here" stance - it was pass the buck for 8 years.

Maybe if I hadn't served, or served under men who never passed the buck, I would be a bit more lax in judging Bush & Cheney.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
The Senate bill has already changed.

There are discussions on bringing the House and Senate bills together. No new bills have been passed so the House can still vote on the passed Senate Bill.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
I would rather have someone out there doing the people's work,

Something Cheney never did in my opinion.

I believe that the most important job of the VP is to maintain knowledge of the Administration so they won't be "surprised" if they have to take over the office. My thinking in that area stems from the surprise that Truman got when FDR died.

I also believe that the VP should be a sounding board for the President, and provide different points of view when needed.

And let's nor forget the funerals and other international tasks.

The prime job, then, should be preparation in the event that they need to take over the Presidency. The on-going education and updating understanding of the various Departments should be a full time job at a minimum.

Being CEO in the White House was simply a very bad idea in my mind.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
Enjoy yourself, then as the "Big O" is driving us into a depression.

We were in our Great Recession when the Big O took the oath of office. I shudder tho think of how bad things would have fallen to if the Republicans had been in power and let top companies in the financial sector as well as GM & Chrysler totally fail. CH 11 or liquidation.

But I am of the strong belief that we would have seen a true depression, starting last spring.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
I would rather have a war in Iraq than here.

Saddam wasn't going to invade the US. Look at the number of Purple Hearts that have been awarded because of the Iraq Invasion and it's hard to accept that Bush (or Cheney & Rumsfeld) did the right thing. You and I both served in the WestPac during the Vietnam War, we both know some of the names on the Wall. How can we accept what our troops are going through because of such a horridly bad decision.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
The only embarrassment to the country is the umwavering blind followers of liberalism.

"Liberalism" in today's America means anyone who does not pass the Conservatives Purity Test. I'm considered a "Liberal" because I believe that the conservatives in the last Administration totally failed this country and I believe we are truly suffering because of that failure.

By the way, Top, I owe you a PM on the VA situation.

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