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WarRI1
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:25 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
Yea almost as funny as thinking Obama is president material. I found it staggering the day after a left state has spit in the face of the DNC to tell them they are not on board with the "change" an inexperience junior senator with a terrible voting record promised them. My lord in every thread about politics you have to drag Sarah Palin into it to try to makes yourselves feel better. Well truth is even though Obama can read a teleprompter and has some fancy college piece of paper saying he is real smart the fact is he isn't. He is a utter failure and worse a disigenius politician which is why he will be a one termer. Keep up the good work Falcon.

Now that is a naive statement, in this day and age. anyone who can look at any politician as a hero is missing something. They are all self serving, greedy for power, cut throats, serving the masters of congress, the lobbyists who fill their re-election coffers while currupting our representative government. The last couple of generations of politicians has mastered the art of influence peddling through fundraising. They have become masters of extortion to raise funds for their carreers in government. Nothing matters, but re-election, power and self enrichment. Both sides are ruining our country, throw the bums out, do not support those who screw us over everyday. I am almost glad Martha Coakley lost. I just hope it was for the right reason. Slavish espousal of any party line, shows very little thinking in my opinion.
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:29 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
Yea almost as funny as thinking Obama is president material.

Don't tell me, you thought that GWB was presidential material right?

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 147):
Let me guess: you said the same thing about Bill Clinton in 1994, didn't you?

You know it.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
Well truth is even though Obama can read a teleprompter and has some fancy college piece of paper saying he is real smart the fact is he isn't.

You're now the judge on who is and who is not intelligent?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
He is a utter failure and worse a disigenius politician which is why he will be a one termer.

Let's put aside the fact that you're an ardent defender of a party whose last President lied about the fact that there were WMDs in Iraq in order to wage an unjust war that has brought untold suffering upon the Iraqi people, have you not learned anything from history? Have you already forgotten all of those Democrats who swore up and down that Bush would be a one-termer? Obama is in year 1 of his presidency. Do you not know how much things can change one way or the other in 3 years or how short the American public's political attention span is?

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 148):
Abject fear? Ha! Who said conservatives have no sense of humor...

I know, I laugh every time I see someone claim that all Democrats live in abject fear of Sarah Palin. The only thing I do when Palin speaks is cringe. Just imagine that by some sick twist of fate she does become President (oh the humanity!). We'll all be harking back to the glory days of George W Bush. The humiliation she would bring upon the United States' image abroad would be unparalleled in modern Presidential history.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
Well truth is even though Obama can read a teleprompter

Right because he's the first politician in the history of humankind to use a teleprompter.  Yeah sure
Seriously do you guys have nothing better?
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MoltenRock
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:38 am



Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
Which is why Sen. elect Brown ran against the current plans. For some reason AG Coakley decided to run a campaign based on costing her constituents more money and look where it got her.

She's a toadie that didn't deserve to win. But those people trying to declare this one election and especially "healthcare" as the #1 reason for voting or being indicative that no one wants healthcare reform in the USA is ridiculous. Mass. because of it's universal care already can't be applied globally to the USA and where Americans are at on healthcare.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 135):
Also, Sweden for a long time had one of, if not the highest cancer death rates in the world due to its health care rationing. The UK also features in the same score.

I would be interested in reading / seeing that, link please?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
Everything I've read has indicated that Doctors get paid faster and with less BS from Medicare than they do from private companies.

That's what I've heard from 2 of my friends/college roommates that went on to become doctors, as well as one of my in-laws whom is an MD as a neurologist.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
We can extend that simply by shutting down Medicare Advantage. That was supposed to be cheaper because it was privately run - but it's running about 15% more expensive than plain old Medicare.

Better yet, shut down America's war mongering machine. Bring the troops home from around the world, and have them do what they are supposed to. DEFENSE of the homeland, not war mongering! The USA spends close to $750 billion every year for her war machine of bloated weapon procurements, interjecting our men and women into 3rd world toilets we have no business in being in, but because they have oil become an urgent priority.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 137):
And we need to go back to the traditional filibuster procedures, with Senators actually standing up on the Senate floor and filibustering. The approach today is basically candy ass, be it a Democrat or Republican

Excellent! I couldn't agree more. Make those lazy bastards actually have a camera on them reading "See Dick Say No" repeatedly. Those camera images are very powerful.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 140):
Terror - The playing of the 'terror card',

Hence why I said a few times in the past year, the only thing America seems capable of is cutting taxes, borrowing money, and war mongering. That's it. Nothing else can get done.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:46 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
Well if Canada and other countries around the world has a better health care system, why do so many Canadians, Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, and Aussies who can afford it come to the US for medical care?

Simple it is because the US system can give you the best care in the world if you have the $$$, but not everyone has the $$$ and not everyone in a country will.

Also I'll give the US credit that they will give people experimental procedures if you are willing to pay for it which can and does save lives. Where as in Canada the procedure has to be certified, this may be a form of government intervention but an insurance company does the exact same thing and in fact because it is for profit is encouraged to deny coverage for whatever reason they can.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
How many Americans rush to Canada, Japan, EU, or China for medical care?

More than you think and that tide will turn if your costs continue to explode in the matter that they are and I will agree that this current bill isn't helping matters. Also Americans frequently come north for cheaper prescription drugs and as Arrow already said in reply 133 most medical procedures are 30-60% cheaper.

The main reasons that American's wouldn't come to another country is that its not free for them if they go there and they will have to pay full costs to whatever they would need and we would not prioritize American's over Canadians. However I do have relatives from Jamaica that would much rather come up to Canada than go to the US because the outright costs are a lot less.

Quoting Luckyone (Reply 135):
The people there, however, do amazing things with what little they have, but the limitations win in the end. Also, Sweden for a long time had one of, if not the highest cancer death rates in the world due to its health care rationing. The UK also features in the same score.

You may have better rates for Cancer survival which I think is because of the fact that the US leads the way for the moment in Medical research and capabilities which the rest of the world has to be thankful for.

However the US trails several 3rd world counties in life expectancy and in infant mortality which tell the tale of a health care system a lot more than cancer survival rates.

Lists Below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:47 am

The election of Brown is an absolute good.

Goverment fuctions best when there are checks in place, which hasn't been the case since Obama was elected...next stop November and the republicans taking over congress

I can't think of a better anniversary give for the false president then that.

This is what the 3rd democrat he has backed that has lost....not to mention the Olympics

The sad part is that many of the leadership don't get this, thank god a fair number of them are up for re-election this year.

My only regret is that I went to my rod building class rather then watch Herr Obermanns's show on MSNBC. I really wanted to see his head spin and him spit out split pea soup when he realized that the canidate he backed lost..
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:57 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 154):
I can't think of a better anniversary give for the false president then that.

Now he's a false President? Care to explain this one?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 154):
not to mention the Olympics

Right because, in the grand scheme of things, the fact that Chicago was not awarded the Olympics is what will define Obama's presidency. You guys can try and spin it any way you want for political gain, but Obama didn't lose the Olympic games, Chicago did. Heavy favorites are upset in nearly every Olympic bid yet you don't see people from those countries blaming their head of state.
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:10 am



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 147):
Let me guess: you said the same thing about Bill Clinton in 1994, didn't you?

No I didn't think Bill Clinton was a bad president, until he picked some fat ugly girl to use his cigar on. I would have taken Bubba over this last year any day. When are you elitists going to grasp the concept that Obama is not what you thought he was and when will you start to believe that the people that see this are not just blindly saying it because they are GOP? The sooner you do the better off you will be. As will your party.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 151):
You're now the judge on who is and who is not intelligent?

Oh I get it, if you are saying Palin is stupid. (because Begala does on CNN) your the authority on who is smart and if we don't think so then we aren't? Jeez can you be more pompous?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 151):
untold suffering upon the Iraqi people

Oh yea they enjoyed getting gassed and having no say in their lives much better.  sarcastic 
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MoltenRock
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:11 am



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 147):
Let me guess: you said the same thing about Bill Clinton in 1994, didn't you?

Agreed. It was why I would roll my eyes and have to hold back from biting a friend's head off when they'd say there were going to vote for Obama in the primaries, because Hillary Clinton / Bill Richardson / Chris Dodd / Joe Biden would be too partisan for "moderate Republicans" or independents to vote for them in the general election, but Obama was a clean slate so Republicans could support him.

After picking myself up off the floor from nearly laughing to death, I told them they are smoking dope if they think Republicans will be anything but rabid, partisan, attack dogs the minute it looks like he is the nominee, and won't let up ever, as they did the exact same thing to Clinton back in the fall of 1993 before he too was President. The Republican attack machine incessantly screaming whatever ridiculous b.s. they can dream up hoping something sticks was the same for Clinton (a Washington outsider as well, whom the media said could bring a "new tone to Washington") as I said it would be for Obama, and it has.

Obama wasn't even the President yet, but the radical hate and partisan rape machine of the wingnuts was in full speed overdrive. Wingnut partisans deemed Obama "the worst President ever" within a week of him being sworn in. So it's laughable when I see FOX news spewing, dittoheads, whining about not being invited to the oval office for tea given their behavior which has been the same since 1991.
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:16 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 151):
You're now the judge on who is and who is not intelligent?

After Sarah Palin went to how many colleges and/or universities to get ONE single piece of paper? In "Communications"? Is that how she learned to read the sports on TV in a small Alaskan village?

My money any day of the week is that Obama is smarter than Palin, Bush and even McCain, who finished 5th from the bottom of his graduating class.

Bill Buckley is dead and the Republican's intelligence level dropped significantly when he died.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 154):
I can't think of a better anniversary give for the false president then that.

False President? Why? Because he's black? Got a "funny" name?

Didn't you know that the Birthers have given way to the Tea Baggers? (And it can't be English Breakfast Tea as that is reserved for normal people who actually like tea. Must be some Fruit Of The Month Tea to keep up with changing political fads.  yummy  )
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:27 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 156):


Quoting Cws818 (Reply 147):
Let me guess: you said the same thing about Bill Clinton in 1994, didn't you?

No I didn't think Bill Clinton was a bad president, until he picked some fat ugly girl to use his cigar on. I would have taken Bubba over this last year any day.

I'm with you here - he did a very good job while in office. I think a lot of people remember the mid-to-late 90s as a time when things were going pretty well. The Lewinsky nonsense I don't give a toss about, though.
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:42 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 156):
Oh I get it, if you are saying Palin is stupid. (because Begala does on CNN) your the authority on who is smart and if we don't think so then we aren't? Jeez can you be more pompous?

Nice try but I don't follow Begala. I can't stand the talking heads on TV. They're a bunch of blowhards the lot of them. Anyway, I mentioned the fact that Palin would humiliate the US if elected President but I'm not really sure how that equates to my claiming that she's stupid. However, you did claim that our current president is unintelligent. Do you know a lot of idiots who are elected to Harvard Law Review?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 156):
Oh yea they enjoyed getting gassed and having no say in their lives much better.

Yeah I didn't say that now did I? There had been no chemical attacks against the Iraqi population since the Gulf War and no indication that there would have been one had Saddam not been overthrown. But how exactly is a US occupying force in their country a sign that the Iraqis have a say in their lives? Two wrongs don't make a right. Saddam killed his own people and the war that we waged in Iraq has claimed the lives of countless innocent men, women, and children.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 157):

Careful now, you're in danger of being branded an elitist.  Big grin

[Edited 2010-01-20 20:47:30]
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:47 am



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 75):
No, didn't you love Pelosi's smugness after Brown won as she said they will still pass health care? They just don't get it. Which is why most of them will be out of work this Nov.

Except for Pelosi, she may lose the House Speaker job, but she will keep her seat. Too bad she likely will not get the Massachusetts treatment.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 80):
Now that I've got that out of my system, on to serious things...

Bitch Slap sums up the election results in Massachusetts quite nicely.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 82):
And why does socialism get such a bad rap?

Little apartments, little cars and little appliances but then trying to dictate to the rest of the world how one should live, socialism sucks. 70 or so years of that horrible Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics was not enough to convince liberals that socialism sucks. Go spout this socialist crap in China, 'their' communist leaders told the liberals of the world where they could stick the Copenhagen conference. Hint: It is between one's legs where the sun doesn't shine much. That's where socialism can reside too.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 93):
LMAO! You do realize that Scott Brown voted for universal healthcare in Massachusetts don't you? Or did you pay no attention to issues and voting history and listen to the narrative of someone being paid $400 million to spread their agenda?

Do you realize that Scott Brown is going to vote to kill Obama Care, don't you ? This after the smaller but same universal health care plan in Massachusetts, that Obama wants to burden the rest of the U.S.A. with, has not saved anyone money or improved health care ? Or have you paid no attention to the issues ?

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 97):
Why are Republican's abusing the filibuster process?

The chart is good, except for the part where it doesn't show how democrats filibustered the Civil Rights Act . Neat how it almost makes it look like the party other than the democrat party filibustered the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act . Almost, but not quite. Was attention paid to what the chart was really showing ?
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:51 am



Quoting CALTECH (Reply 161):
Little apartments, little cars and little appliances but then trying to dictate to the rest of the world how one should live, socialism sucks. 70 or so years of that horrible Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics was not enough to convince liberals that socialism sucks. Go spout this socialist crap in China, 'their' communist leaders told the liberals of the world where they could stick the Copenhagen conference. Hint: It is between one's legs where the sun doesn't shine much. That's where socialism can reside too.

You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.
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MoltenRock
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:08 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 162):
You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.

Agreed. But frankly the US is doomed to becoming an also ran, former powerhouse much like the USSR, Britain, Rome, Greece, Persia, and the Egyptians. It's been what? 45 years since the US has done anything large, or politically tough outside of wars? The boldest thing that can get done is a mere rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. But hey, "America rules!"

It's sad to watch my country nosedive into oblivion as she continues on her rapid descent into impotency. At this rate the Senate won't even begin considering the comprehensive energy bill the House passed last year until 2012. Soon the healthcare reform will be nothing more than a $10 fine given out to baby bottle nipple manufacturers who make their nipples pink. I' sure that too will face a Republican filibuster too though, so even that's a toss up. LOL
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:08 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 158):
And it can't be English Breakfast Tea as that is reserved for normal people who actually like tea. Must be some Fruit Of The Month Tea to keep up with changing political fads.

It was actually tea from China that was thrown into the Boston Harbor that day.  wink 

Quoting Cws818 (Reply 159):
I'm with you here - he did a very good job while in office. I think a lot of people remember the mid-to-late 90s as a time when things were going pretty well.

Well, I think we had a Republican-controlled Congress passing balanced budgets to partially thank for that.  yes 

Quoting OA412 (Reply 151):
Let's put aside the fact that you're an ardent defender of a party whose last President lied about the fact that there were WMDs in Iraq in order to wage an unjust war that has brought untold suffering upon the Iraqi people, have you not learned anything from history?

Ah, the lie from the left that NEVER gets old! Quotes from both before and after Bush/Cheney took office.

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." S
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weap ons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003


Once again, I will make note that these quotes are from both before and after Bush and Cheney took office. And look, a few of those Democratic quotes belong to "liars" that the Democrats chose to be their Presidential Candidates in 2000 and 2004. Did you vote for those "liars" in 2000 and 2004 OA412? Or did you vote independent or no-vote those years?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):

I've said before that I felt Afghanistan was "forgotten" when Bush/Cheney went into Iraq

Did the administration forget about it Ken, or did the media choose to focus on Iraq instead of Afghanistan? There is a difference.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 82):
And why does socialism get such a bad rap?

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 158):
In "Communications"? Is that how she learned to read the sports on TV in a small Alaskan village?

Just what is wrong with a degree in communications Ken? Just what are you implying here?



One thing I'm curious about - just what payoffs and buyouts such as the Cornhusker Deal and the Louisiana Purchase will we see from the Democrats to pass a new healthcare bill in the Senate should the House not adopt the Senate version of the bill and the bill in the Senate has to go back to beating the filibuster?
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Falcon84
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:09 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 162):

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 161):
Little apartments, little cars and little appliances but then trying to dictate to the rest of the world how one should live, socialism sucks. 70 or so years of that horrible Union Of Soviet Socialist Republics was not enough to convince liberals that socialism sucks. Go spout this socialist crap in China, 'their' communist leaders told the liberals of the world where they could stick the Copenhagen conference. Hint: It is between one's legs where the sun doesn't shine much. That's where socialism can reside too.

You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.

You know that; I know that; hell, THEY know that, but the truth here isn't what is being pushed-it's another old Republican/conservative scare tactic. We had "the commies", for years; then it was "the liberals", and, now that has worn off in effectiveness, it's now "the socialists". It's all the same old pattern by the conservatives, who just can't sell the idea consistently to the American people that their idea of protecting big business and the wealthy is what is needed. Never mind that conservatism leaves the regular schleps like you and I behind in the economic climb, but that's what they've always advocated. Never mind that their ideology, by itself, is a cold hearted, mean-spirited ideology, that would crush the weakest at the expense of the strongest. They keep pushing it.

What we need isn't straight liberalism, nor straight conservatism. We need the best ideas of both, put together to move the nation forward. Unfortunately, there are enough on both sides of the aisle who simply want to see their ideology win-not the nation win, but the ideology. That's not what we need.

We need the likes of Pelosi and Reed to start including Republicans who have good ideas; we need the Republicans to quit the "socialist" scare tactic bullshit, and get on with trying to make the nation better, not just stand in the way of everything.

We don't need these games any more. We need solutions-from both sides.
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NIKV69
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:23 am



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 159):
I'm with you here - he did a very good job while in office. I think a lot of people remember the mid-to-late 90s as a time when things were going pretty well. The Lewinsky nonsense I don't give a toss about, though.

I agree, I just wish he didn't lie after he got caught though. Lost a little respect for him. Kind of like McGuire. Just say you did roids, we all know you did!

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 161):
Too bad she likely will not get the Massachusetts treatment.

Yea that district is way way far left. No way she is losing.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
TheCol
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:38 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
Well if Canada and other countries around the world has a better health care system

Canada's system is also riddled with problems, which we Canadians need to address. Thankfully, the US isn't even close to copying it.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
You want him? We will gladely send him and you decide.

If that were to happen, Obama would be the savior of the Liberal Party. He's a little too far right for the traditionalists and the French, but It's time for them to shape up or ship out.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
The only embarrassment to the country is the umwavering blind followers of liberalism. Yes, ever conservitive knows the difference, what is embarrassing is no liberal knows thge difference.

Apparently not, since you have absolutely no clue. Do you even know what traditional liberalism and conservatism is?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
Look at international politics? Which country? Pick one that is doing wonderful, gets along with everyone because they are luvy-duvy? What is embarrassing is the stupidity of liberals who think the grass is greener in the EU. Well, if you truely think that is true, why don't you live there?



Ok, let's start over...

America has only had two party's elect for over 100 years, so how the hell can the average American compare with anything else? The only way to understand politics is to study the whole picture.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 133):
If you don't fix your system pronto, it'll be tens of millions.

Which becomes a Canadian problem. Our hospitals are already overcrowded, the last thing we need is sick foreigners coming up in droves.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
all the conservatives

Geez, it didn't take you long to change your tune. Maybe next time, huh?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:56 am



Quoting OA412 (Reply 162):
You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.

Liberals taking over banks, auto industry, and investment firms, telling the GM CEO he must quit, spending other's money in record amounts, raising taxes, wanting to tax everything to pay for one's presidential legacy, liberals running the media just like a state run media, putting leftist ideas and thoughts into the mush minds of students, telling others how to live while maintaining a rich liberal lifestyle, ignoring the people of the nation and then paying for that arrogance in election after election.

Clearly one must be so far to the left when one doesn't think that liberals in America are socialists, or that this Obama is not a socialist. So called socialists are just communists that haven't come out of the closet yet.
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cws818
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:02 am



Quoting CALTECH (Reply 168):
Clearly one must be so far to the left when one doesn't think that liberals in America are socialists, or that this Obama is not a socialist. So called socialists are just communists that haven't come out of the closet yet.

So you say. I find that interpretation rather ignorant.
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TheCol
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:13 am



Quoting CALTECH (Reply 168):

No offense, but that's really surprising coming from somebody who's lived outside the US.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 168):
Clearly one must be so far to the left when one doesn't think that liberals in America are socialists, or that this Obama is not a socialist. So called socialists are just communists that haven't come out of the closet yet.

If you think Obama is a socialist, then the rest of the West is a communist empire just waiting to happen.  Yeah sure

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 168):
spending other's money in record amounts

What about the last President?

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 168):
wanting to tax everything to pay for one's presidential legacy

You're talking about Bush, right?

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 168):
liberals running the media just like a state run media

Like Fox News?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:31 am



Quoting Cws818 (Reply 169):
So you say. I find that interpretation rather ignorant.

To say the least.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 170):

Very well said.
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dxing
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:34 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
The government already invests in R&D

Research grants to Universities are not the same thing as R&D with pharma companies. Universities are usually looking a lot farther down the road than the next best viagra pill.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
Lawsuits will not be that big a deal in costs.

Tell that to the lawyers involved in the Celebrex, Vioxx, or anyone of a number of other prescription drug class action law suits.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
And you'll not get any fair market costs on medications until you (1) allow government negotiations on their purchases and (2) bringing in medications from overseas.

Incorrect as the government can regulate them just like they do any other number of products. It would be much better if they would work with them to help lower the costs to get them on the market then try and fight them once they are already there and the money to get them there spent.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
And why he voted for it at the state level when MA brought in their program?

Again, read what he said. He realizes what the pitfalls of the legislation were now and sees the same pitfalls awaiting Obama care.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
Go figure - that has got to be one of the great mysteries of this country.

Go figure, in a capital murder case one person will pay the ultimate price for taking anothers life. In a malpractice case everyone pays based on the emotionalism that the lawyer can bring to jury too,.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
Who said that all states need to be under the program? Texas already has tort reform (with NO COST REDUCTIONS GAINED) and therefor has no need to be included.

There is always way to better it.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 151):
I know, I laugh every time I see someone claim that all Democrats live in abject fear of Sarah Palin

We laugh every time we see that kind of comment since if she weren't a threat the liberals would not waste so much time on her.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 152):
She's a toadie that didn't deserve to win. But those people trying to declare this one election and especially "healthcare" as the #1 reason for voting or being indicative that no one wants healthcare reform in the USA is ridiculous.

That seems to be todays spin. It's all her fault. Seems if the President was so concerned about getting his health care legislation through without any drama he would have had his behind up there a lot earlier and been supporting her a lot sooner than he did. They figured it was Ted Kennedy's seat, how could the GOP ever take that away? Classic example of counting your chickens before they're hatched. Again, the Rasmussen poll linked and referenced in reply #117 shows that health care played a huge role in who they voted for.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 152):
Mass. because of it's universal care already can't be applied globally to the USA and where Americans are at on healthcare

The citizens of that State have more experience at Obama type care than most of the rest of the States. They have more expertise at what works an what doesn't than the rest of us and they voted accordingly.
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mrocktor
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:05 pm



Quoting OA412 (Reply 162):
You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.

What you call "liberal" (that certainly takes the crown for Orwellian newspeak) is what the world calls "social democratic". Yes, the "social" is for "socialism".

I find it highly entertaining that Democrats are offended by the term - it shows that at a basic level they know that socialism is incompatible with what makes America, well, America. But they still advocate the same policy enacted by Socialist parties all over the world, while at the same time screaming they are not a socialists  Big grin

Clearly doublethink is not fiction.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:30 pm



Quoting Ipodguy7 (Reply 1):

and so it begins....
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:47 pm



Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 173):
Quoting OA412 (Reply 162):
You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.

What you call "liberal" (that certainly takes the crown for Orwellian newspeak) is what the world calls "social democratic". Yes, the "social" is for "socialism".

Especially since the term is more accurate than "Liberal". Until the 1920s, they were known as Progressives, but the people eventually figured out they didn't want progressivism, and they changed their terminology to call themselves Liberal, hijacking a term which since its inception two centuries earlier meant a belief in individual freedoms and minimal government.

If you leave the US and go to other countries, liberals are frequently the complete opposite of what people call liberals over here. The Liberal Party in Switzerland for instance, are more akin to our Libertarians.

So what term to use? Progressive? No, because that was their own self-agrandizing term, assuming that what they are doing is progress. Socialist? Descriptive, but maybe a bit over the top. I think that many aspire to be socialists but can't bring themselves to admit it to themselves or others. Statists? I think that is the most accurate term to use - the belief that the power of the State is a good thing, and the state should be our guide and provider in life.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
baroque
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:09 pm



Quoting OA412 (Reply 162):
You clearly have no idea what socialism is if you believe that American liberals are socialists.

Thanks OA412, saved me the trouble. But it gets better (worse).

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 164):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 82):
And why does socialism get such a bad rap?

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill

WC is one source, but in some ways you appear to be more with Marie Antoinette. I wonder if Mme Defarge is practicing her knitting.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 165):
You know that; I know that; hell, THEY know that, but the truth here isn't what is being pushed-it's another old Republican/conservative scare tactic. We had "the commies", for years; then it was "the liberals", and, now that has worn off in effectiveness, it's now "the socialists". It's all the same old pattern by the conservatives, who just can't sell the idea consistently to the American people that their idea of protecting big business and the wealthy is what is needed. Never mind that conservatism leaves the regular schleps like you and I behind in the economic climb, but that's what they've always advocated. Never mind that their ideology, by itself, is a cold hearted, mean-spirited ideology, that would crush the weakest at the expense of the strongest. They keep pushing it.

What we need isn't straight liberalism, nor straight conservatism. We need the best ideas of both, put together to move the nation forward. Unfortunately, there are enough on both sides of the aisle who simply want to see their ideology win-not the nation win, but the ideology. That's not what we need.

 checkmark   checkmark  For both concepts. Do you suppose they really believe that the USSR had anything to do with Socialism or is it just they need to hang on to the most remote and thinnest of threads?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 170):
If you think Obama is a socialist, then the rest of the West is a communist empire just waiting to happen.

 rotfl  - in agreement. Strange what bedfellows extremists will produce!! Notice that the little grey boxes for houses never gets followed by a survey of how well the average Joe does or does not do in these dreadful Socialist countries. Hey ho, MoltenRocks summarised it very well in another thread where he pointed out it is all the party line talking points. I also note that the song about little boxes, little boxes and they are all made out of ticky tacky and they all look the same, was AFAIK about the US not the USSR. Malvina Reynolds lived in Berkeley not in Leningrad. Yes they varied in colour, but they were all made out of ticky tacky.

What does seem to come over is that scare and terror is the main approach to any problem. Sad. I disagree with MoltenRocks that the US empire is doomed (well in the medium run anyway) but keep up with terror as the main motivation and he could be all too damn right he could.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:22 pm

When i saw this thread i knew it was going to be a bloodbath. Cant all you guys get over your stupid bullshit (NIKV69, DXing and some of you others) and propose something that actually works, instead of bickering over the same old talking points. Seriously, some you guys on here act like you are in Washington DC already! Ok, yeah, Scott Brown won and us Dems need to get over it and work for the future. Who knows, he may not toe the party line and actually be a moderate; we'll have to see. As for this socialist meme, anyone who thinks Obama is socialist or that America is becoming socialist seriously needs to get their head examined. Why is everyone scared of health care reform? Is it because you dont want to spend your money to help others who are less fortunate? Everyone knows the insurance companies are screwing us over but yet they are happy with their current healthcare? But from what i see thats because those people only pay more and they dont care about the rest of the others who have crappy plans, crappy coverage or who cant afford health care. Please, someone give me the answer to that question because it seems pretty cruel to me that most of this country doesnt want to help those who are less fortunate in OUR OWN country. Ok, maybe the current bill sucks, but there is still time to fix it and not ram-rod it through the Senate. Obama just said that today they are gonna go back and revisit it. As for the Economy, i mean what was Obama supposed to do? Let Great Depression II happen? The government HAD TO take control of something but it doesnt mean they are going to control it forever. The Economy is in a mess, it happens every so often, but this time its pretty bad and its gonna take some time to turn the ship around. He has only been in office for 1 year yet the Right/Repubs/Tea Party think the apocolypse is coming tommorow or something...

We should be lucky to be Americans; for most of the year i live/go to school in India; the world's largest democracy, yet seemingly nothing gets done because there are a million political parties and everyone hates each other because of class, state, language, caste and ethnic warfare  Sad. Hell, a group wants their own damn state just because they think the current government "doesnt like them"! The Politicians here who get elected, litterally most of them ARE crooks with actual criminal records and they only get elected because they decieve the population with false promises, giving them money, food, booze, etc, etc.

So, again, we should be lucky to be Americans and we should all stop whining and get to work on fixing whats broke and improving what isnt!
 
baroque
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:41 pm

Socialism in action:

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2667941.htm

Australia has two main classes of superannuation funds.

One is the retail funds, managed mostly by the banks - pillars of the private enterprise system at work.

The second are called industry funds and these are run on a non-profit basis - socialist types of enterprises.

DANIEL WHITELEY, INDUSTRY SUPER NETWORK: When you have a look at the league table what you firstly find is that none of the top 40 performing funds are retail funds and that the industry super funds and other not-for-profits dominate the top half of the league tables, whilst the retail funds dominate the bottom half.

APRA has the legal power to require super funds to provide the data. It of course is an impartial agency and consumers can trust that the methodology that APRA uses will be sound and can also trust the impartiality and the independence of the agency.

GREG HOY: But measuring whole of fund performance APRA's league tables triggered protest from those that represent retail funds, which argue the results are 12 months old, too broad and don't distinguish between different option offered by retail funds.


The Industry funds are way ahead of the retail funds. It would be about the same if they were running a medical system or a chook farm. Enterprises based on socialist types of concepts can be successful and indeed they ARE successful.

The retail funds are most embarrassed by how poorly they do.

So why try to hold up socialism as the great bogey man when clearly it can and IS doing very nicely thank you in some parts of the world? I dare say there are examples of it working in the US too.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:47 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 178):
One is the retail funds, managed mostly by the banks - pillars of the private enterprise system at work.

The second are called industry funds and these are run on a non-profit basis - socialist types of enterprises.

You are implying that these industry funds are "socialist". Can you provide any links as to what is in those funds? A Morningstar report maybe? What companies do they invest in?
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:26 pm



Quoting OA412 (Reply 171):
Very well said.

Just like the quotes from all those "liars" were very well said, and I notice you didn't respond to them. So I'll ask again - Once again, I will make note that these quotes are from both before and after Bush and Cheney took office. And look, a few of those Democratic quotes belong to "liars" that the Democrats chose to be their Presidential Candidates in 2000 and 2004. Did you vote for those "liars" in 2000 and 2004 OA412? Or did you vote independent or no-vote those years?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 176):
WC is one source, but in some ways you appear to be more with Marie Antoinette. I wonder if Mme Defarge is practicing her knitting.

So if you're going to make ridiculous statements, at least back them up. I could make comparisons of how any developed nation on this planet is some ways with Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 175):
If you leave the US and go to other countries, liberals are frequently the complete opposite of what people call liberals over here. The Liberal Party in Switzerland for instance, are more akin to our Libertarians.

I wouldn't say complete opposite but I do agree. "Liberal" in the US is not "identical to liberal" in other countries, just as "conservative" in countries like Saudi Arabia is not the same as "conservatism" in the US, no matter how much Superfly wants it to be.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 177):
When i saw this thread i knew it was going to be a bloodbath. Cant all you guys get over your stupid bullshit (NIKV69, DXing and some of you others)

You knew it was going to be a bloodbath, but then you only mention conservatives, so does that make it a one-sided blood bath? Why not add Falcon and the usual liberals to the list as well? Falcon started out very well in this thread but it didn't take long for him to return to his usual ways.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:33 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 126):
why were Mass. people against this? Because they already have a much, much better healthcare plan in place, right there, right now, than the bill under consideration. Additionally, that bill would cost them more as taxpayers even though they would opt out of the healthcare reform bill. It's a no brainer why a Mass. citizen would be against it. Get nothing, pay more. Sound good to you? No? Exactly, me neither.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 138):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):

I agree with that. But there are also many INFORMED people in America that vote.

Yeah, that explains all the conservatives on here who think Sarah Palin is POTUS material.



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 143):
Why keep bringing Palin into this?

Because that is all they can?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 142):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 72):
Why was the 10 year point picked? Because in year 11 and every year after that, it costs huge amounts of money. That costs is going to be paid by my grandchildren, as well as yours.

I agree, the current plan is horrible and way too expensive. It should be a *lot* cheaper. Which is within the power of the US congress, if they wish it.

No one in the democrat party has looked and, wants to look at, or even wants published the CBO costs numbers of either the House or Senate versions of "health reform" after year #10. Why? Because the true costs are reflected there. In both current versions, they are front loaded so taxes are collected in years 1 through 4 and benefits do not begin until at least year #4. So the the current CBO numbers only show a debt nuteral costs for 6 of the 10 years, that right there shows the first 10 years of "health reform" costs are really 40%, or more higher than what Washington is telling us. The Democrats know this and are trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
Enjoy yourself, then as the "Big O" is driving us into a depression.

We were in our Great Recession when the Big O took the oath of office.

Were we? Unemployment was 7.7%, inflation was less than 1% on 20 Jan. 2009, the national debt was $11T. What are those numbers on 20 Jan. 2010? In Feb. 2009 Obama promised unemployment would not go above 8%, today it is 10% officially and when you count those who gave up looking for a job, it is a staggering 17.3%, and the national debt is over $13T, and the dems want to increase the national debt by another $1.9T as of today.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100120/...on_bi_ge/us_congress_debt_limit_11

Another 36,000 Americans lost their jobs last week.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Initia...laims-apf-3027105474.html?x=0&.v=5

Bush has been out of office for a year now, and yet you libs/sociallists still want to blame him for the current problems we have.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 149):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
I would rather have a war in Iraq than here.

Saddam wasn't going to invade the US.

No, but the terrorists were. Remember the Buffelo four in 2002, the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, and half a dozen others? Fighting the terrorists in their countries kept us from fighting them here.
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:47 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 181):

No, but the terrorists were. Remember the Buffelo four in 2002, the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, and half a dozen others? Fighting the terrorists in their countries kept us from fighting them here.

But Iraq didnt have any terrorists or at least Saddam wasnt harbouring any that we knew of. In fact, we should have invaded Saudia Arabia because thats where most of the terrorists came from.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 180):

You knew it was going to be a bloodbath, but then you only mention conservatives, so does that make it a one-sided blood bath? Why not add Falcon and the usual liberals to the list as well? Falcon started out very well in this thread but it didn't take long for him to return to his usual ways.

I dont think Falcon is a liberal, he seems more of a centrist to me. NIKV and DXing and some of those guys are so far right that they dont know what conservative is. Hell im not a liberal either and i would vote for a decent Republican; the problem is there havent been any decent Repubs in a long long time. I thought Eisenhower and Gerald Ford were pretty good Republican presidents though.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 181):


Bush has been out of office for a year now, and yet you libs/sociallists still want to blame him for the current problems we have.

Well the problems did start under him and they have gotten worse unfortunetly.
 
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:04 pm



Quoting Texan (Reply 42):
Health care: we need reform. Have it run by non profits with government support. That way we don't have government bureaucracy or private, for-profit businesses holding up the treatment of people who desperately need treatment. And it should be used for regular visits and doctor approved, necessary procedures only. Happy?

Isn't that what was done in previous "health reform" efforts by your Federal government? Doesn't seem to be working out too well.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
NIKV69
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:11 pm



Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 182):
NIKV and DXing and some of those guys are so far right that they dont know what conservative is.

Do you read anything before you type? How can I be far right? Sure I support low taxes and guns but I also support abortion, gay rights and the legalization of prostitution, gambling and drugs. Get your facts straight oh wait that's right you don't need any. The voters that began this taking back of our country in MA weren't far right either. Maybe you would do yourself some good to accept this and stop with the elitism that only the far right opposes you and your poor excuse for a president. It's leading to your demise.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:36 pm



Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 182):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 181):


Bush has been out of office for a year now, and yet you libs/sociallists still want to blame him for the current problems we have.

Well the problems did start under him and they have gotten worse unfortunetly.

The problems we currently have actually go back to Clinton, but Bush never tried to use President Clinton as an excuse. Clinton had a offer to get bin Laden from Sudan in 1998. Had he done that would attacks like the USS Cole, 9/11, the Sapin train bombings, the London bus and airport bombings have happened? I don't know, but maybe, just maybe one or more of those attacks would have never taken place. Also in 1998, many House Democrats, lead by Barnie Frank, began to make Fannie and Freddie approve home mortgages for those who could not really afford them, based on the dot com economy that burst in 1999.

Did those problems get worse under Bush? yes, they did, but Bush accepted that. Today, a year after Bush left office, Obama and his cronies are still blaming Bush even though histroy shows it all really began under another democrat.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 183):
Quoting Texan (Reply 42):
Health care: we need reform. Have it run by non profits with government support. That way we don't have government bureaucracy or private, for-profit businesses holding up the treatment of people who desperately need treatment. And it should be used for regular visits and doctor approved, necessary procedures only. Happy?

Isn't that what was done in previous "health reform" efforts by your Federal government? Doesn't seem to be working out too well.

Are there problems with the current American health care? Yes there are. Are those problems really as bad as Dems make them out to be? No.

There are worse problems with government health care programs run in other countries? Yes, some people wait years for treatment in the UK, Canada, and several other countries, some die awaiting their turn in line. Others are fully denied the health care benefits they pay for through their taxes by bearucrates running the programs because of projected costs, their age, or their life styles. But those same beaurucrates still want to collect the taxes and preimums these same people pay.

I do not want such a system here in the US. Here if you get an expensive disease, you still get treatment, even if you cannot pay for it. Are you a smoker with lung cancer? You get life saving treatments without judgement on your life style. Are you a gay man with AIDS/HIV? You still get your treatment without judgement on your life style.
 
AGM100
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:57 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 127):
How can you say that with a straight face? You can't believe that. It's trash talk and nothing more. What's next? "Your mama..." insults?

Simple...if you believe that the current administration is ran by leftist "socialists" it makes sense. They have proven that they want the government to run our major systems in this country and control our economy to the nails.

In order to achieve the goals ...they have two ways to get there . 1. The people willingly go along and do not oppose it ( remove tea party) or ... 2. The economy gets so bad that they have to do it in the name of saving us .

Obviously they have crashed into the mountain of popular opinion....so how dedicated are they to their agenda?. If they stay on course too raise taxes , increase regulatory burdens and spend trillions they will kill small business ...along with it 60million jobs over time. They simply will blame capitalism , previous administrations and and of course operate in the name of social equality. ...its perfect cover.

It is a huge agenda , and I will be honest I don't believe the theory completely nor do I believe the current administration is intelligent enough to see it though. But it is certainly a theory of some. And it can not be denied that the US is sliding into a form of socialism .. we openly speak now of increasing medicare roles and increasing entitlement budgets beyond reality. These ideas would have been crazy thinking for our grandparents.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
baroque
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:07 pm



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 179):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 178):
One is the retail funds, managed mostly by the banks - pillars of the private enterprise system at work.

The second are called industry funds and these are run on a non-profit basis - socialist types of enterprises.

You are implying that these industry funds are "socialist". Can you provide any links as to what is in those funds? A Morningstar report maybe? What companies do they invest in?

I am not in one (though I wish I was) so I will have to scrape up what I can.

Their own site is:
http://www.industryfunds.org.au/iff/index.cfm?contentid=494
Administration is under ASIC rules. Non profit. Most are associated with Unions. I do not know how they pay their boards of trustees, but I assume they are paid something - but not millions I will bet. The staff too will be well paid but not on the scale of the banks.

They can invest in anything they chose within the ASIC limits. Most have most of their money in the Aus stock market.

http://www.super-funds.com.au/industryfunds.html

Advantages
The main advantage of investing in an industry fund is the low fees which includes the fact that you can be comfortable in the knowledge that there are no commissions (hidden or otherwise) going out to a financial adviser. Of course low price is not the only reason for buying something but it is important to be aware that buying (or investing in) a super fund is not like buying a car. Imagine if you were buying a car and for every extra thousand dollars you spent they were going to add an extra 10 kilos of weight to the back seat. This is what happens when you pay more for your investments. Every extra dollar that you have to pay in fees is a dollar that comes of your investment returns. There are some funds that can probably justify the additional costs (but they tend to be few and far between) and there may be some features and benefits which are important to you which cost extra. Ultimately however, every dollar you pay is a dollar less in returns. For more information on this topic you should read the article, "It's all about fees" on the Superblog.


This bit strikes me as quite funny. I would have thought simplicity was a bit of an advantage!!
Disadvantages
Although the lower fees generally charged by industry funds have a lot to do with the fact that they are not for profit and they do not pay commissions to financial advisers, the industry funds also tend to keep the service they provide quite simple in comparison to retail funds. For example, most industry funds have about 10 investment options while most retail master trusts offer somewhere between 50 to 100 options or more. Many retail funds allow investors to purchase direct shares within their fund, while very few industry funds offer this functionality and only with limited functionality. Another feature that financial advisers often point out as lacking in industry funds is what's referred to as "daily unit pricing". This means that your investment is value daily accounting for market movements. Industry funds are often only value weekly or even less frequently with the application of a "crediting rate".

It's important to note that many industry funds have a long history and began in the days when investors had little say in what happened to their super. Initially many funds had only one investment option, effectively the investor (or the investor's employer) gave the money to the fund and the fund gave it back when the investor retired, plus interest. Now not only can we choose from a range of different investment options but since the introduction of Super Choice in 2005, most investors can now choose between a huge range of funds.


I think some have played around with infrastructure investment, but I don't think this is a major line. But you can make a choice from Capital stable (mostly bonds and other interest bearing investment) to sharemarket and if you want to be more risky overseas stock markets where you get exchange as well as index risk.

Most of the retail funds in Aus shares have trailed the index in recent years, so Christ knows where their expertise is focused!!
 
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seb146
Posts: 23605
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:22 pm



Quoting DXing (Reply 128):
The President made it crystal clear in his speech on health care before the joint session of Congress that he wasn't interested in seeing tort reform included in the legislation.

Where, exactly did he say he is not interested in tort reform? Why is that the only thing you righties claim will fix absolutly everything about health care? What about us working folk who can not afford any type of insurance? WIll tort reform fix that? Will tort reform stop insurance companies from denying people affordable insurance because of pre-existing conditions?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 130):
How many Americans rush to Canada, Japan, EU, or China for medical care?

Because, generally, we can not afford to go rushing off to Canada, Japan or anywhere else for care. If anyone can, they do go to Thailand or India because it is just as quality but less expensive. Also, there are still many, many Americans who go to Canada and Mexico for their prescrption drugs that Republicans claimed was such a great reform. And, it was great reform. For the pharmacutical companies.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:30 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 186):
Simple...if you believe that the current administration is ran by leftist "socialists" it makes sense. They have proven that they want the government to run our major systems in this country and control our economy to the nails.

Sure, for a whole swath of people that have no clue as to what history or geography lessons from 5 years ago, much less 50 years ago, it's easy to believe in the Tooth Fairy, Young Earth Creationism, Unicorns, or Saddam was responsible for the 9/11 attacks as 41% of American's still believe/d some 6 years afterwards.

What specific things (laws, regulations, restrictions) are you opposed to or in favor of vs. what you claim the Democrats don't or want to "run our systems"?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 186):
...nor do I believe the current administration is intelligent enough

I think this administration is intelligent, but the most impotent, weak knee pussies, I've ever seen. Carter had more spirit and force of will than Obama. Maybe the Democrats ought to prop up a week old corpse in-situ since it would have more backbone due to rigor mortis. Obama and family could go to Hawaii and leave a more effective replacement.

Better yet, they should send Hillary Clinton to the Senate floor with a Louisville Slugger to crack a few heads open. Nickname her the Enforcer. LOL
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:30 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 184):

Do you read anything before you type? How can I be far right? Sure I support low taxes and guns but I also support abortion, gay rights and the legalization of prostitution, gambling and drugs. Get your facts straight oh wait that's right you don't need any. The voters that began this taking back of our country in MA weren't far right either. Maybe you would do yourself some good to accept this and stop with the elitism that only the far right opposes you and your poor excuse for a president. It's leading to your demise.

First off he is your President too, like it or not. If you dont respect him as a person at least respect the office. Ok then remind me where you have supported those things. I dunno it just seems that every time we have a political thread all everyone does, but more so you conservatives/righties/whatever it is, is just yell, name call, bicker, etc, etc and then it just degenerates into a useless exercise. All you can say is "I hate Obama", "he is an idiot", "he is a socialist, communist, whatever" , blah blah blah. Im not saying the liberals on here arent gulity as well, but its mainly the other side that puts blinders on and goes whole hog. For petes sakes he has been in office for 1 YEAR...and you are calling him a "poor excuse". He still has 3 years to change whatever it is he is doing wrong and i think he's gonna do that. He's not stupid..you cant be stupid and achieved what he has in his life so far.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 185):

I do not want such a system here in the US. Here if you get an expensive disease, you still get treatment, even if you cannot pay for it. Are you a smoker with lung cancer? You get life saving treatments without judgement on your life style. Are you a gay man with AIDS/HIV? You still get your treatment without judgement on your life style.

Then what system should we have when we have a significant amount of the population either cant get health insurance because of pre-exsisting conditions or because they cant plain afford it? Should we all leave those people by the wayside? I know we have the best medical care in the world...but its only for those who can afford it. You and me are lucky, we can afford it, but i think we should help everyone else afford it too. Whats wrong with a government option? If it helps those who cant afford private insurance then whats wrong with that? The only reason you get treated at the ER, even if you dont have insurance, is because its the Law. Then the taxpayer has to pick up the tab...the system should be that EVERYONE should be able to access the same healthcare without any extra burden on the taxpayer. I still fail to understand why everyone is so scared to death about health care reform...
 
luckyone
Posts: 3878
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:34 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 189):
Carter had more spirit and force of will than Obama.

If that's the case and history's any indication then Obama's in for a HORRIBLE next two years and doesn't stand a chance in 2012.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:41 pm



Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 189):
Sure, for a whole swath of people that have no clue as to what history or geography lessons from 5 years ago

Ok so they are stupid .... end the argument.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 189):
What specific things (laws, regulations, restrictions) are you opposed to or in favor of vs. what you claim the Democrats don't or want to "run our systems"?

Specific ? Just narrow is down to entitlement spending ..and its not democrats ..its politicians. Its politicians making promises with your money ,handing it to someone else. They take 35%-45% of your earnings ...for the greater good...and are still trillions in debt. But , the more they do the greater the populace relies on them and it just goes around and around .... the drain that is. But the well is poisoned so your side wins in the end anyways.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
NIKV69
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Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:44 pm



Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 190):
Ok then remind me where you have supported those things. I dunno it just seems that every time we have a political thread all everyone does, but more so you conservatives/righties/whatever it is, is just yell, name call, bicker, etc, etc and then it just degenerates into a useless exercise. All you can say is "I hate Obama", "he is an idiot", "he is a socialist, communist, whatever" , blah blah blah

I would suggest you use the search feature and show me where I have said these things.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:47 pm



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 193):

I would suggest you use the search feature and show me where I have said these things.

Im paraphrasing, sue me. But bassically you've called him an idiot, a "sorry excuse", etc, etc. The others on here keep whining on about communism, socialism, etc, etc..why i still dont know.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 4019
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:00 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 185):
There are worse problems with government health care programs run in other countries? Yes, some people wait years for treatment in the UK, Canada, and several other countries, some die awaiting their turn in line.

 redflag  No one has died that I can recall in Canada in the time that I have been alive waiting for urgent health care procedures, if they have it would be a huge media story and the government would damn well have to answer for it. If you have a critical illness you get the treatment right away and the stories you hear of people waiting are the exception and not the rule. Our system is not perfect and there is a debate for us shifting to a public/private system like that of the UK but no one is suggesting abandoning our single payer system.

What people have to wait for here are non life threatening procedures which can be an inconvenience but people are not going to die and yes this has to be addressed.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 185):
Others are fully denied the health care benefits they pay for through their taxes by bearucrates running the programs because of projected costs, their age, or their life styles. But those same beaurucrates still want to collect the taxes and preimums these same people pay.

Also complete  redflag . Never have I been told what doctor I have to see and what hospital I have to go to, all the government does here is pay the bill to the doctor, also never have I heard of people been denied care.

Also all the things you mention about projected costs, age, and lifestyle are things that insurance companies do to determine your premium whether or not to drop you (which is the same bureaucratic nonsense) and what makes that worse is that these companies are out to make money and have to answer to only their shareholders and the government has to answer to the people.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14262
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:13 pm



Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 194):
But bassically you've called him an idiot, a "sorry excuse", etc, etc. The others on here keep whining on about communism, socialism, etc, etc..why i still dont know.

Oh I get it guilt by association? Sad, that you can't debate the topic without grasping at the perverbial propaganda straws. It's fine the events of the last few days must have you a tad out of sorts. Again if you want to actually discuss what I have said by using actual posts I have made let me know but since you want to just blurt out soundbytes and spew the hatred like the Ed Schultz show we are done here.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
MoltenRock
Posts: 1030
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:15 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 192):
Specific ? Just narrow is down to entitlement spending ..and its not democrats ..its politicians. Its politicians making promises with your money ,handing it to someone else. They take 35%-45% of your earnings ...for the greater good...and are still trillions in debt. But , the more they do the greater the populace relies on them and it just goes around and around .... the drain that is. But the well is poisoned so your side wins in the end anyways.

Ok, so you want to cut entitlement programs. Which ones should be cut or eliminated?

Social Security?
Medicare?
Medicaid?
Food stamps?
Paying the interest on the debt?
Veterans disability or healthcare?
Others?
 
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OA412
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Posts: 4853
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:23 pm



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 180):
Just like the quotes from all those "liars" were very well said, and I notice you didn't respond to them. So I'll ask again - Once again, I will make note that these quotes are from both before and after Bush and Cheney took office. And look, a few of those Democratic quotes belong to "liars" that the Democrats chose to be their Presidential Candidates in 2000 and 2004. Did you vote for those "liars" in 2000 and 2004 OA412? Or did you vote independent or no-vote those years?

Was Bush or was Bush not the Commander in Chief who ultimately chose to fight a war with Iraq. The lies by both those on both sides of the aisle are despicable and heinous but, in the end, Bush holds the greatest degree of responsibility, IMHO, because he's the one who actually signed off on the war. Clinton talked about WMDs, but he certainly didn't fight a war with Iraq during his presidency. Likewise, I believe that Tony Blair holds the greatest degree of responsibility in the UK even if others in his government perpetuated the WMD myth.

And, as to your other question, I voted against both Gore and Kerry (and GWB for that matter) so no, I'm not some hypocrite who bitches then votes for a candidate out of blind party loyalty.
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Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Now That Brown Has Won The MA Senate Seat...

Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:23 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 185):
There are worse problems with government health care programs run in other countries? Yes, some people wait years for treatment in the UK, Canada, and several other countries, some die awaiting their turn in line. Others are fully denied the health care benefits they pay for through their taxes by bearucrates running the programs because of projected costs, their age, or their life styles. But those same beaurucrates still want to collect the taxes and preimums these same people pay.

One of the things that infuriates us is comments like this, made over and over again, that grossly misrepresent what goes on up here. No one "dies awaiting their turn in line" and no one is denied care by a bureaucrat. Do you not have access to a search engine on your computer? If you do, why don't you take a look at all the independent studies done over the years that explode these myths. and consistently rate the average outcomes of our system higher than yours (and at half the cost).

We have problems in our system that need addressing, most of them revolving around adequate funding. I think we need to make more and better use of the private sector to deliver some services. But no one wants to get rid of the single-payer insurance system because that's what makes it twice as efficient as yours. And until you bite that bullet, you'll be condemned to survive with band-aid fixes (like Obamacare) that don't deal with the fundamental problems inherent in your system.

Does it ever register with you anti-public folks that one of the things that makes your system so pricey is the inordinate amount of money poured into administration because of an amorphous polyglot of systems, many of which don't talk to each other very well. Yet you slag public systems for being inefficient and costly, despite overwhelming evidence that the opposite is true.

That's why I think the cause is beyond hope down there. Too many of you are so obsessed with keeping out any universal public system that you can't see the forest for the trees.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

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