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boeingfever777
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Greatest Presidents/Leaders.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:28 am

I'm merely looking for who you might think was a great president/leader past or present.

My top pics.

Winston Churchill
Franklin Roosevelt
Nelson Mandela
Abraham Lincoln
Bill Clinton
Ronald Reagen

I do not wish to start debate or force politics on this thread. Please post nicely.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
varigb707
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:55 am

First, I said 'hey' and then I said 'now'. "Hey Now!" - Hank K.
 
PacNWjet
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:07 am

"Leader" is a somewhat vague term, so I will take liberties with it and nominate a head of state who, while lacking the same powers of governance as a head of government, is one of the great leaders of the contemporary era:

King Juan Carlos I of Spain
 
AF340
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:16 am

Eisenhower and Reagan.


Not only was the Highway System a tremendous achievement, but the Eisenhower Doctrine was crucial to securing world peace.

Reagan really doesn't need an explanation.
 
kiwiinoz
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:49 am

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
I do not wish to start debate or force politics on this thread

Good luck
 
DC10extender
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:03 am

Teddy Roosevelt
Winston Churchill
Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
 
Airstud
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:45 am

George H.W. Bush - he led the country and the free world through a very troubling global security crisis and succeeded in getting done what needed to be done, without letting it become the huge catastrophe, um, that his son turned it into....
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mNeo
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:32 am

Hitler.


Even though he is one of the most evil people in the 20th century, Hitler has to be one of the greatest leaders. To do what he did, in a such a short span, while avoiding everyone, is a show of great leadership.

PS: Im not in any way supporting him, just stating that a series of events occured that he was able to radically transform a country within a very short time.
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MIAspotter
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:17 am

Quoting mNeo (Reply 7):


My pick is quite similar to the others.

Churchill.
Mandela.
Marcos Perez Jimenez (Venezuelan Dictator from 1952 to 1958)
Clinton.
Alvaro Uribe.
Sarkozy.
Obama.

MIAspotter.
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kiwiinoz
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:59 am

Quoting mNeo (Reply 7):
Even though he is one of the most evil people in the 20th century, Hitler has to be one of the greatest leaders. To do what he did, in a such a short span, while avoiding everyone, is a show of great leadership.

I think, putting aside the moral component and just focussing on leadership, I can see your point. However, I still think it's wrong.

What Hitler actually did was not difficult. Just opportunistic. Fear is an easy manipulator as long as you have a few people around you with equally empty morality. Throw in a mildly ethno-centric population, some well managed propoganda, and you get the result you got.

No matter what, his model of leadership was never sustainable. Leading by fear, as opposed to inpiration and "nationhood" eventually runs out of steam and gets overthrown by someone who no longer wants to sit back.

As a military strategist, he was OK, but allowed the hunger for domination to occasionally lead him to irrational strategic decisions.

Throw in the fact that he had no real accountability to the people he was leading, and it's pretty hard to say that he was a strong leader.

There is no doubting that he had more impact than most leaders, but this was not a result of effective leadership alone.
 
Rj111
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:50 am

Is this greatest leaders or leaders who have a good image?
 
EL-AL
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:08 am

Quoting mNeo (Reply 7):
Hitler.

Come on! Hitler as "Great leader"? Not only 55 millions were killed because of this policy, but this guy is responsible for the destruction of his own country! Most of his country people consider him as a disgrace for Germany, how the hell can you say that in any way he is a great leader?

Back the the topic: Last year the most popular newspaper in Israel (Yediot Aaronot) asked the Israelis who they think is Israel greatest leader, and the winner was Manachem Begin (Prime minister 1977-1983). David Ben Gurion was number 2, and Yitzhak Rabin came 3rd.
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Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:18 am

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
I'm merely looking for who you might think was a great president/leader past or present.
Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
I do not wish to start debate or force politics on this thread. Please post nicely.

Automatic self-contradiction.
 
RussianJet
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:32 am

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
I do not wish to start debate or force politics on this thread.

So what you're basically saying is that we are to choose the greatest Presidents and leaders without being able to discuss why? Sorry, but in guaging how great a politician someone was, it's kind of necessary to discuss their politics and achievements. It is nonsensical to suggest otherwise.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
I do not wish to start debate or force politics on this thread. Please post nicely.

Automatic self-contradiction.

  

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 11):
Come on! Hitler as "Great leader"? Not only 55 millions were killed because of this policy, but this guy is responsible for the destruction of his own country! Most of his country people consider him as a disgrace for Germany, how the hell can you say that in any way he is a great leader?

Well said indeed. One can of course point to the fact that he successfully built up Germany's economy, industry and military in a relatively short timespan, but these things do nothing to negate the fact that he cost the world, and Germany, so much death, destruction and pain There is no way on earth he can be considered a great leader The same goes for Stalin - an iron grip on power, successful domination of peoples for a long time - at massive human cost that any material achievements are meaningless.
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Rj111
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:52 am

Hitler had incredibly strong leadership skills. But that is not necessarily the same as being a good president - which obviously he ultimately wasn't.
 
RussianJet
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:04 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 14):
Hitler had incredibly strong leadership skills.

Is that really true given that he led Germany to destruction?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Rj111
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:21 pm

That's the point though, he managed to whip the country into a frenzy and lead them onto that road to destruction.

There have been good presidents/PMs in the world who aren't necessarily incredibly strong natural leaders. So i think you can uncouple the two terms.

[Edited 2010-03-08 04:21:36]
 
Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:25 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 13):
One can of course point to the fact that he successfully built up Germany's economy,

No, he didn't. He was merely completely unscrupulous about robbing jews of their possessions and running up massive amounts of debt which would only ever have been resolvable with the loot from his planned occupations.

Nothing positive or constructive about that at all.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 14):
Hitler had incredibly strong leadership skills

Instigating destructive fanaticism is much easier and much less impressive than inspiring enthusiasm for a lasting, constructive effort.
 
RussianJet
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:30 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 13):
One can of course point to the fact that he successfully built up Germany's economy,

No, he didn't. He was merely completely unscrupulous about robbing jews of their possessions and running up massive amounts of debt which would only ever have been resolvable with the loot from his planned occupations.

Nothing positive or constructive about that at all.

You are of course right, I merely intended to say that this is the sort of thing that people will cite in support of their position in arguing that h was a good leader.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:39 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
You are of course right, I merely intended to say that this is the sort of thing that people will cite in support of their position in arguing that h was a good leader.

No problem. My response was just to the statement as such without looking much at the context of your post.  
 
Airstud
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:02 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
No, he didn't. He was merely completely unscrupulous about robbing jews of their possessions and running up massive amounts of debt which would only ever have been resolvable with the loot from his planned occupations

Which, is very similar to the reasons why I, a Republican, think Reagan was actually an awful president: He created "wealth" in the private sector only by raking up nine million billion jillion fillion dollars of government yes GOVERNMENT debt, with absolutely no provisions for the debt to be amortized by the private sector's new "wealth."

Unless the pro-Reagan posters are talking about his hardline anti-Communist stance. He did get that part right...
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futurepilot16
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:43 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 14):
Hitler had incredibly strong leadership skills. But that is not necessarily the same as being a good president - which obviously he ultimately wasn't

I agree. Hitler was swayed by his absolutely ridiculous policies. But, if you read up on his history before WW2 and before his persecution of Jews, people will see that he was able to help Germany recover from one of the worst financial crisis' in World history. Inflation was so rampant in Germany in the years following WW1 that 1 U.S. dollar would equal 1 billion German Marks, even more than that at some points. He used his military Industrial complex to rebuild his country, which some can argue that we did the same thing to help recover our economy after the great depression. But Again, the guy was a nut job, in the worst ways. A tyrant who let personal affiliation and feelings get in the way of his job, which skewed his ability to lead.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Is that really true given that he led Germany to destruction?

Well he said Hitler had strong leadership skills, he never said he used it correctly.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
ALexeu
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Haile Selassie
Nelson Mandela
Nicholas Romanov
Chiang Kai-shek
Theodore Roosvelt
Mohandas Gandhi
Winston Churchill
 
Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:03 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 20):
Which, is very similar to the reasons why I, a Republican, think Reagan was actually an awful president: He created "wealth" in the private sector only by raking up nine million billion jillion fillion dollars of government yes GOVERNMENT debt, with absolutely no provisions for the debt to be amortized by the private sector's new "wealth."

In this particular respect I think there is indeed a parallel – except just that Reagan probably believed in the private sector magically compensating for the public debt, which may have been delusional but at least not quite as vicious...

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 21):
Hitler was swayed by his absolutely ridiculous policies. But, if you read up on his history before WW2 and before his persecution of Jews, people will see that he was able to help Germany recover from one of the worst financial crisis' in World history. Inflation was so rampant in Germany in the years following WW1 that 1 U.S. dollar would equal 1 billion German Marks, even more than that at some points.

No, Hitler merely reaped the fruits of the tireless work of his predecessor governments during the Weimar Republic he despised so much but who actually did almost all the heavy lifting (including planning the Autobahn system, just to shoot that down as well while we're at it!).
 
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Kiwirob
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:11 pm

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
Nelson Mandela

Was Mandela ever really a leader, as President of SA he didn't accomplish much, he was a great symbol and rallying point, no doubt about that, but a leader I'm not so sure he ever really was one.
 
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LTU932
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:23 pm

For Germany, Willy Brandt and Helmut Schmidt. Too bad one of them fell because of an East German spy, and the other was basically forced out of power by his coalition partner (though the internal problems in the SPD didn't help either).
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EA772LR
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:00 pm

Best:
George Washington by far
Abraham Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
Eisenhower
Ronald Reagan

Worst:
Carter
Johnson
Bush Jr.
Obama
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
EMBQA
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:47 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 21):
Well he said Hitler had strong leadership skills, he never said he used it correctly

Spot on...!!!! I've been watching a series on the Military Channel that has covered Hitler's rise to power starting back in the early 1930's. Very interesting... So many people freak out when people comment like we have here, but don't comprehend that you can use great leadership for evil too......
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N104UA
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:06 pm

My List is
------------------------------------
-Thomas Jefferson (even though he hated being president)
-Teddy Roosevelt (first environmentalist president and wanted Universal Health Care)
-Woodrow Wilson (League of Nations and if congress would have approved the Treaty of Versailles we might not have had WWII)
-FDR (New Deal)
-Clinton (Centrist Democrat who balanced the budget and if we would not have had the Bush Tax Cuts and deficit spending we would be out of the deficit in about 5 more years)
-Obama (he is the first president in many years that really wants to be bipartisan and looks at the other sides ideas)
-Queen Elizabeth I (she was a person who kept a country together when it was about to fall apart from war and religious ideologies)
-Ted Kennedy (He is someone who worked for the people his entire life and he believed that everyone in America deserves a fighting chance to have the American dream)

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
Ronald Reagen
Quoting AF340 (Reply 3):
Reagan.
Quoting EA772LR (Reply 26):
Ronald Reagan

If you like someone who grew the size of the Government more than any other president in modern history, he grew it by 90%, if you like a president who grew the deficit from $90 Billion at the start of his term to $2.6 Trillion in 1988, someone who cut social programs that had been in place since the 1930s and if you want a president who illegally sold weapons to a country that we do not even recognize (technically treason) then yes he was a pretty good president.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 26):
Best:
George Washington by far
Abraham Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt

Washington I think is a little over rated but who is to say history really only remembers the good things after about 100 years, but he did declare that America is not a Christian nation, so I like that.

Lincoln is someone that had to fix many things that Buchanan messed up and if we would have the 24 news media on Lincoln, like we have today I think that we would not like him that much.

Teddy Roosevelt, I agree with he was the first person to want universal health coverage for all Americans.
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LTU932
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:10 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 27):
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 21):
Well he said Hitler had strong leadership skills, he never said he used it correctly

Spot on...!!!! I've been watching a series on the Military Channel that has covered Hitler's rise to power starting back in the early 1930's. Very interesting... So many people freak out when people comment like we have here, but don't comprehend that you can use great leadership for evil too......

He was never a good leader in any way you want to look. Hitler was a great speaker, who could electrify his audience with his passion, his gestures and the way he tries to convey his message (though the speeches themselves are said to be very bland). He was also someone, who knew that once he got to power, he'd need to do everything and anything to consolidate all power under himself and the party (e.g. the Enabling Act, banning the SPD and KPD, the Gleichschaltung). But a great leader? Absolutely not. He was just a despot, who consolidated all powers under himself and immediately went to crush all dissent, but he was no leader. Sure, he did everything right as far as getting to power and establish his regime, but in the long run, it was his hunger for power, genocide and world domination that became his undoing. Bottom line: He found the perfect formula as far as grabbing power for himself is concerned, and he was successful with that; but that doesn't make him a good leader, it only made him somewhat smart as a politician.
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Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:10 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-Woodrow Wilson (League of Nations and if congress would have approved the Treaty of Versailles we might not have had WWII)

I'm not sure what you're getting at... the horribly misconceived Treaty of Versailles was in fact put into effect and it was probably the main reason why Hitler could seize power eventually, leading to WWII.
 
EA772LR
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:15 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-FDR (New Deal)

Over rated. WW2 got us out of the Great Depression, not FDR's big government policies.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-Clinton (Centrist Democrat who balanced the budget and if we would not have had the Bush Tax Cuts and deficit spending we would be out of the deficit in about 5 more years)

Something to do with that whole 'checks and balances' thing with having a Republican House/Senate with a Democrat as Pres. It worked under Reagan as well.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-Obama (he is the first president in many years that really wants to be bipartisan and looks at the other sides ideas)

   Good grief. You're joking right. He's been the most divisive non-bipartisan presidents I can remember. He and his troops Pelosi/Reid pretty much try to ramrod everything though...screw the Republicans.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-Ted Kennedy (He is someone who worked for the people his entire life and he believed that everyone in America deserves a fighting chance to have the American dream)

Oh the drunken hypocrite that left Mary Jo Kopechne to die. He believed everyone is 'entitled' to the American Dream, even the ones who have never contributed...please.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-Thomas Jefferson (even though he hated being president)

This one I can agree with. I forgot about him the first go around! Brilliant mind!   
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:20 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
the horribly misconceived Treaty of Versailles was in fact put into effect and it was probably the main reason why Hitler could seize power eventually, leading to WWII.

Yes, Hitler used the Versailles Treaty to appeal to the nationalistic side of the people. He basically promissed to restore German pride, but as we all know, all he did was grab power for himself to leave the country in ashes just 12 years later. Part of the blame should also go to Emperor Wilhelm II. (who managed to destroy the very monarchy Bismarck and his Grandfather had established), because after Austria's war declaration, he seized the moment to make the war even bigger than it was supposed to be. However, there were lessons learned from the Versailles Treaty. Let's remember that after WWII, the focus wasn't even on punishing Germany, or else the Western sectors wouldn't have had the benefit of the Marshall Plan.
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:40 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
Over rated. WW2 got us out of the Great Depression, not FDR's big government policies.

Incorrect. We had already been working our way out of the Great Depression prior to our entry into WW2 as a direct result of the New Deal. WW2 allowed us to fully emerge from the depression, but to suggest that the New Deal had no effect is simply incorrect.
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futurepilot16
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:50 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
He was never a good leader in any way you want to look. Hitler was a great speaker, who could electrify his audience with his passion, his gestures and the way he tries to convey his message (though the speeches themselves are said to be very bland). He was also someone, who knew that once he got to power, he'd need to do everything and anything to consolidate all power under himself and the party (e.g. the Enabling Act, banning the SPD and KPD, the Gleichschaltung). But a great leader? Absolutely not. He was just a despot, who consolidated all powers under himself and immediately went to crush all dissent, but he was no leader. Sure, he did everything right as far as getting to power and establish his regime, but in the long run, it was his hunger for power, genocide and world domination that became his undoing. Bottom line: He found the perfect formula as far as grabbing power for himself is concerned, and he was successful with that; but that doesn't make him a good leader, it only made him somewhat smart as a politician.

Here's the thing. I don't look at what Hitler did per se, I look at what he managed to do in terms of uniting a country through Nationalism. Now in the end it had vast consequences, and I don't think he ever meant well, but what he managed to do through just his oratorical skills, is amazing. Again, i'm not a fan. I'm not justifying what he did, i'm just saying.
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Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:14 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 32):
Yes, Hitler used the Versailles Treaty to appeal to the nationalistic side of the people. He basically promissed to restore German pride, but as we all know, all he did was grab power for himself to leave the country in ashes just 12 years later. Part of the blame should also go to Emperor Wilhelm II. (who managed to destroy the very monarchy Bismarck and his Grandfather had established), because after Austria's war declaration, he seized the moment to make the war even bigger than it was supposed to be. However, there were lessons learned from the Versailles Treaty. Let's remember that after WWII, the focus wasn't even on punishing Germany, or else the Western sectors wouldn't have had the benefit of the Marshall Plan.

The Treaty of Versailles was so punishing (and intended to be), that most germans perceived it as foreign injustice and oppression – without it Hitler wouldn't have had enough support to seize power.

Even with all the stupid mistakes made by Wilhelm II and his generals before, the singular crucial mistake was the Treaty of Versailles that turned a bad situation into an all-out disaster.
 
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LTU932
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:18 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 34):
Here's the thing. I don't look at what Hitler did per se, I look at what he managed to do in terms of uniting a country through Nationalism. Now in the end it had vast consequences, and I don't think he ever meant well, but what he managed to do through just his oratorical skills, is amazing.

Now that you're elaborating further, you confirm what I said. We're in agreement, Hitler's rule was devastating for all, but he did sucessfully unite the German people in the midst of the Great Depression, and the Versailles Treaty, so that they could support him in some way.
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MadameConcorde
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:33 pm

Not Hitler or Mussolini. Not Chavez or Ahmadinejad.

My list in no particular order for each time period

Historic Leaders:

Alexander the Great
Joan of Arc
King Louis IX
Emperor Napeoleon Bonaparte
Queen Victoria

Past/retired leaders:

Mohandas Gandhi
Mustafa Kemal Ataturk
Charles de Gaulle (thank you for liberating France and making Concorde possible)
President John F. Kennedy
Margaret Thatcher
Prince Rainier III of Monaco and Princess Grace
Tun Mahathir bin Mohamad (former PM of Malaysia)

Present leaders:

Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum
H.M. King Bhumibol Adulyadej Rama IX
H.I.M. Akihito Emperor of Japan

     
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:35 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 35):
Even with all the stupid mistakes made by Wilhelm II and his generals before, the singular crucial mistake was the Treaty of Versailles that turned a bad situation into an all-out disaster.

Agreed. In fact, I also think that it was wrong to blame solely Germany for the war. We didn't start it, the Austro-Hungarians did, Germany probably just made it worse (thanks to the powerhunger of Wilhelm II and his generals), and yet all the blame went to what was left of the German Empire while Wilhelm, who abdicated in shame, was allowed to go into exile.
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Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:14 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
I also think that it was wrong to blame solely Germany for the war. We didn't start it, the Austro-Hungarians did, Germany probably just made it worse (thanks to the powerhunger of Wilhelm II and his generals), and yet all the blame went to what was left of the German Empire while Wilhelm, who abdicated in shame, was allowed to go into exile.

But it is of course always easier to assign all the blame to the party which happened to be the loser of the war anyway...   
 
PSA53
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:21 pm

U.S. Presidents/Leaders

Lincoln
T.R.
James Polk
MLK
JFK
Reagan
LBJ
Eisenhower

Infamous:
Hitler
Nixon(in US terms of criteria and standards)

International:

Churchill
Golda Meir
Gandhi
Jesus Christ
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
MadameConcorde
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Greatest Presidents/Leaders.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:23 pm

One great leader I forgot to mention on my list of historic leaders

Emperor Charlemagne

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
sw733
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Greatest Presidents/Leaders.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:38 pm

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
Nelson Mandela

I'm curious about all the Mandela citings. As mentioned earlier, he didn't do a whole lot. He got out of jail, he became President, he looked good in a suit, he was a Black guy ruling a largely Black country, and he said some memorable quotes. Sorry, but anyone can do that...doesn't make them a leader, especially not a good one; nor do the awards that were (largely) symbolic rather than substantive. If anything, he did more for the ANC than for the Republic of South Africa.
 
N104UA
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Greatest Presidents/Leaders.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:39 pm

I forgot to mention a few international ones

Nelson Mandela
William Wilberforce (the man who go the British to abolish the slave trade in the early 1800s)

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-Obama (he is the first president in many years that really wants to be bipartisan and looks at the other sides ideas)

Good grief. You're joking right. He's been the most divisive non-bipartisan presidents I can remember. He and his troops Pelosi/Reid pretty much try to ramrod everything though...screw the Republicans

The reason he can not bi-partisan legislation through is because the republicans are being the party of No now.

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 31):
He believed everyone is 'entitled' to the American Dream, even the ones who have never contributed...please.

I believe that every American citizen is entitled to the American Dream

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 28):
-Woodrow Wilson (League of Nations and if congress would have approved the Treaty of Versailles we might not have had WWII)

I'm not sure what you're getting at... the horribly misconceived Treaty of Versailles was in fact put into effect and it was probably the main reason why Hitler could seize power eventually, leading to WWII.

What I am saying that he is a good leader for having the idea for the League of Nations, yes the Treaty of Versailles was not a good treaty because the French wanted the Germans to suffer, but I am saying if the Senate would have approved the league of nations I think the league would have been stronger with the support of the USA.
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LTU932
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Greatest Presidents/Leaders.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:53 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
But it is of course always easier to assign all the blame to the party which happened to be the loser of the war anyway...

Indeed.   
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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bwest
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:12 pm

Historically:

Emperor Constantine the Great

By drastically reforming the Roman Empire and founding a new capital that was eventually named after him, Constantinople, he laid the foundation for the survival of the (eastern) Roman Empire for another 1000 years. Not many leaders can say that they founded a 1000 year empire, even though the silly German wanted too  
 
Klaus
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:40 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 43):
What I am saying that he is a good leader for having the idea for the League of Nations, yes the Treaty of Versailles was not a good treaty because the French wanted the Germans to suffer, but I am saying if the Senate would have approved the league of nations I think the league would have been stronger with the support of the USA.

Ah, okay. I agree.
 
EA772LR
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 43):
The reason he can not bi-partisan legislation through is because the republicans are being the party of No now.

My my my...how things have changed. I distinctly recall the Democrats being the party of 'no' just 2 short years ago...how times have changed.   

Quoting N104UA (Reply 43):
I believe that every American citizen is entitled to the American Dream

Yeah but the key word is citizen, and old hypocrite Teddy wanted to give away the American Dream to anyone, whether they're a citizen or not. How anyone can respect a man like Ted Kennedy I'll never know.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
Danfearn77
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Greatest Presidents/Leaders.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:06 pm

Its seems odd to me that no one has mentioned Gordon Brown.... 
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WrenchBender
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Greatest Presidents/Leaders.

Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:17 pm

As the thread title suggests

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
Greastest Presidents/Leaders.

If we are talking about the worlds GREASIEST leaders we can include....

Quoting danfearn77 (Reply 48):
Gordon Brown....

and Mulroney, Chretien, Blair, and a few others  
If we are talking the GREATEST, Winston Churchill, Julius Ceasar, Gandhi,

WrenchBender
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