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futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:56 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 42):
Tens of millions? The best number is 8-14 million from the Kaiser Family Institute which is hardly a conservative mouthpiece. And those "millions" you speak of will be put on Medicaid and THAT is why the States are pissed. Good luck with funding that.

Dude you're out of your mind. Are you telling me that out of 300 millions Americans, only 8-14 million people can't afford healthcare? That number is closer to 40 million, based on the shear amount of people that are living below the poverty line

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 42):
You can blame insurance companies all you want, but they aren't making huge sums of money. (Do some research, their gross profit margin is a few percent). And CEO's of most large corporations make millions of dollars


Really could care less about insurance companies profits. I care more about the fact that people won't go broke when a family member gets a terminal illness.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:13 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:57 am

Quoting National757 (Reply 48):
Libs and Dems...Celebrate tonight... it's all down hill from here.

Include Republicans too. They had the opportunity to do something about it when they were in power and yet did nothing. That makes them garbage in my book as well. We need a Washington right now, he didn't believe in the party system knowing it would divide the country, and look what happened.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9298
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:57 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 15):
The U.S, now joins other highly developed nations with a healthcare plan that will allow for coverage of ALL of it's citizens, despite their pre-existing conditions and makes coverage available based on their ability to pay - sounds alot like a 40 year old program called Medi-Care, doesn't it. Now the fools in Washington can focus on getting the US economy moving again.... oh wait, its an election year.... nevermind!

It's interesting that Democrats put the creation of a massive new spending program ahead of the recovery of our economic vitality and job markets. Really shows the priorities of liberals. You are interested in the well-being of the American public insofar as it makes them dependent on government institutions.

Those "highly developed nations" like Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Spain, etc are second rate nations. The United States is an exceptional institution. We should be the nation that doesn't need to collect revenue at gun-point to provide for the needs of our poor. We should be the nation where the middle class isn't subsidized on a daily basis. We should strive to be a republic with the smallest government possible, which is hard work.

Democrats took the lazy step of just expanding the authoritarian powers of government. I don't see that as anything to be proud of, regardless of the outcome or intentions.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
If you cannot live with being the opposition every once in a while, your only choice will be a dictatorship of your liking. Is that what you're advocating?

The tyranny of bureaucracy is just as frightful, and that's what an unwilling American public was served tonight.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
Yes what a sad day indeed when people in this country don't have to worry about whether or not they will have health insurance.

And obviously, spending a trillion dollars we don't have is the only way to achieve that outcome.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
texan
Posts: 4070
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:58 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 35):
Kinda of agree there. I'd say he's more of a communist.

Ok, so you don't know what Communism and Socialism are. No biggie. This bill is conservative by any means. It increases the number of people who have to pay for insurance, which is a boon to the insurance companies. Very communistic.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 39):
Why the hell should I leave, Obama is the one that sucks.

You don't agree with the President, so the President should leave. Ok, that makes sense . . .

Quoting L-188 (Reply 39):
He needs to go back to his native-born Kenya and stop trying to destroy this country with his left wing stagger.

I bet that someone once asked you, "Son, what is it with you: ignorance or apathy?" and you responded, "Sir, I don't know and I don't care."

Quoting L-188 (Reply 39):
I kind of insult socialist when I compare Obama to them. He is an ultra left nut who is attempting to combine the most dispictable aspects of Communisim, Marxism and Leninism, while useing them to destroy the foundation of democracy and freedom in this country. All the well he is dening that he is trying to rule by decree, like a Chavez, Mao or Hitler.

You obviously have no concept of what liberalism, communism (which is the correct spelling, by the way), Marxism and Leninism are. Moreover, you can't even realize that this bill helps private insurers. And you think he is ruling by decree? Comparing Obama to Chavez, Mao, and Hitler is ridiculous -- even more ridiculous than comparing former President Bush to those three. The Republicans and Democrats who voted against this bill used or succumbed to lies and scare tactics. The current bill is a weak bill that will not do much and certainly won't change your standard of living. You will have to -- wait for it -- be covered by health insurance by 2014!!! The horror! Please. This bill is a cave in to the right wing and they won't even support it. Start examining history and you will see that your accusations are so far off base they could be picked off by a blind pitcher.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
texan
Posts: 4070
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:59 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 41):
I too live in MA and the year this passed my copay for going to the doctor went from $10 to $25.

I had private insurance and my copay went from $20 to $40. But then I couldn't afford my insurance any more. So now I'm on the Republican health care plan: Just say NO to sickness.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Klaus
Posts: 21538
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:01 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 35):
Quoting texan (Reply 18):
Obama is not a socialist.

Kinda of agree there. I'd say he's more of a communist.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
I kind of insult socialist when I compare Obama to them. He is an ultra left nut who is attempting to combine the most dispictable aspects of Communisim, Marxism and Leninism, while useing them to destroy the foundation of democracy and freedom in this country. All the well he is dening that he is trying to rule by decree, like a Chavez, Mao or Hitler.

You both appear to be entirely oblivious to the actual meaning of your statements. "Socialism" and "communism" actually aren't empty shell words symbolizing anything that's anathema to you, in reality they have an actual, substantial meaning which actually has nothing to do with this health reform.

If your heads are already exploding over a relatively conservative healthcare reform, you will be completely blinded to an actual threats your country may be exposed to.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
That's incorrect. He's not my president, as he is ineligible to be in that position.

You are wrong. The colour of his skin actually doesn't disqualify him in the USA of 2010 any more.
 
CometII
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 6:02 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:01 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 44):
Only works if the opposition has the power to stop up the works. Unfortunately so many stupid people voted democrat in the last election just to spite Bush we don't have that right now

Could that be because after 8 years of Republican stewardship the United States was left on it's economic knees in the fall of 2008 around election time?
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:03 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 50):
Dude you're out of your mind. Are you telling me that out of 300 millions Americans, only 8-14 million people can't afford healthcare? That number is closer to 40 million, based on the shear amount of people that are living below the poverty line

Even Obama doesn't claim 45Million because of the 20% of the uninsured who are well above the Poverty line and choose not to have it. And no, I'm not out of my mind, I can read. Look at the links below:

Read the facts from your own Government:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

and the Kaiser Family Institute:
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=18125

and of course the breakdown of the Uninsured in the USA:

http://www.american.com/archive/2008...hat-do-we-know-about-the-uninsured
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 13733
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:06 am

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 45):
Conservatives eliminated all of the well paying manufacturing jobs in the US that these tens of millions of people used to have to get health care.

No doubt about that. Does this mean Walmart will have to pay out money for their servants healthcare? Wondeful!
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:07 am

Quoting texan (Reply 53):
ou will have to -- wait for it -- be covered by health insurance by 2014!!! The horror! Please. This bill is a cave in to the right wing and they won't even support it. Start examining history and you will see that your accusations are so far off base they could be picked off by a blind pitcher.

No, but they start collecting the taxes immediately to pay for it. Not to mention the sweetheart deal the unions got on their Cadillac Health Plans. And the CBO has ruled it will result in higher premiums for everyone...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
And obviously, spending a trillion dollars we don't have is the only way to achieve that outcome.

Yup, it's easier to bribe the public with promises of a paradise safety net when we are up to our necks in debt already..
Anyone see this in the news today?

"Obama Pays More Than Buffett as U.S. Risks AAA Rating (Update1)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aYUeBnitz7nU


Also forgot to add:

"Caterpillar: Health care bill would cost it $100M"

"The Peoria-based company said these provisions would increase its insurance costs by at least 20 percent, or more than $100 million, just in the first year of the health-care overhaul program.

"We can ill-afford cost increases that place us at a disadvantage versus our global competitors," said the letter signed by Gregory Folley, vice president and chief human resources officer of Caterpillar. "We are disappointed that efforts at reform have not addressed the cost concerns we've raised throughout the year"

"A letter Thursday to President Barack Obama and members of Congress signed by more than 130 economists predicted the legislation would discourage companies from hiring more workers and would cause reduced hours and wages for those already employed."

http://www.chicagobreakingbusiness.c...-care-bill-would-cost-it-100m.html

[Edited 2010-03-21 21:10:03]
 
andaman
Posts: 2271
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:29 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:09 am

Congratulations!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
Those "highly developed nations" like Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Spain, etc are second rate nations

 
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:10 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):

 

As far as the rest of it, just put it on our tab.

Signed,
People born after 1980
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21538
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:13 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 44):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 28):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 13):
Obama is not my president, he is a socialist piece of scum and an parriah on the nation. I will hate him untill he dying day.

If you cannot live with being the opposition every once in a while,

Only works if the opposition has the power to stop up the works.

No. Being in the opposition sucks, but it means living with not being able to block anything if the voters have chosen it that way.

I am currently in the opposition in my country – the parties I have voted for have practically no decision power on the national level; But it still remains my civic duty to recognize the chancellor and the government I had voted against as the representatives of my country.

And I do recognize them as my legitimate government and wish them the best of luck, however little satisfaction it may provide to me.

This is exactly where democracy happens. Democracy doesn't happen when you're in the winning party and you're getting your way — it happens when you've lost all power and you still acknowledge that the process and the winners of the last contest are in fact legitimate and things are as they should be.

It is the difference between a kid in a candy store — and a grownup owning up to his obligations.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
If you cannot live with being the opposition every once in a while, your only choice will be a dictatorship of your liking. Is that what you're advocating?

The tyranny of bureaucracy is just as frightful, and that's what an unwilling American public was served tonight.
First you save the lives of those who had been uninsured, then you make your bureaucracy more effective without crippling it. And yes, it can be done!
 
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WarRI1
Posts: 13733
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:16 am

Quoting Andaman (Reply 60):
Congratulations!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
Those "highly developed nations" like Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Spain, etc are second rate nations



Thank you, now you see what we are up against sometimes. Just a little bit harsh to me, the second rate nation bit.  
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21538
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
Those "highly developed nations" like Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Spain, etc are second rate nations.

We don't let our lower-income or even poor remain uninsured and have their health in free fall until only emergency care can prevent the ultimate worst.

We also have a much healthier economy while we're doing that, just recently being out-exported by China for the first time after holding the world record for many years.

You are simply wrong.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
The United States is an exceptional institution.

Indeed. It was high time you finally caught up.

[Edited 2010-03-21 21:21:32]
 
wolbo
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:09 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:19 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
I kind of insult socialist when I compare Obama to them. He is an ultra left nut who is attempting to combine the most dispictable aspects of Communisim, Marxism and Leninism, while useing them to destroy the foundation of democracy and freedom in this country. All the well he is dening that he is trying to rule by decree, like a Chavez, Mao or Hitler.

Clearly you are just spewing out terms without having the faintest clue what they actually mean.

Why is it that members of extreme political right wing in the US so often parade their ignorance and stupidity as if it were a badge of honor?
 
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stasisLAX
Posts: 2965
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:22 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 61):
As far as the rest of it, just put it on our tab.

Signed,
People born after 1980

You're welcome from the people that won the war against fascism and the Cold War against the Soviets so you folks born after 1980 could live in freedom.   
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4744
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:23 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 35):
Kinda of agree there. I'd say he's more of a communist.

So you don't understand communism...

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 36):
No, but they'll have to worry about rising premiums

My premiums have gone up every year for the last 3 years, as have my copays, and my deductibles. They are quickly rising to unsustainable levels for many of the people with whom I work. Remind me again why private insurance is so much better?

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 36):
and of course the national debt rising to unsustainable levels.

We have a large standing army that we don't need and are fighting 2 wars that are costing us billions and trillions of dollars. Imagine what we could do without these three things. I'd much rather see our national debt rise as a result of healthcare than an overbloated military and unnecessary wars.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 35):
Yeah, instead they will worry about getting fined if they desire freedom.

From from health insurance? Freedom indeed...

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
He is an ultra left nut who is attempting to combine the most dispictable aspects of Communisim, Marxism and Leninism, while useing them to destroy the foundation of democracy and freedom in this country.

You clearly do not understand any of those 3 theories if you believe that Obama is an adherent of any one of those.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
All the well he is dening that he is trying to rule by decree, like a Chavez, Mao or Hitler.

Chavez, Mao, and Hitler? Do you honestly believe what you just wrote?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 41):
BINGO. I too live in MA and the year this passed my copay for going to the doctor went from $10 to $25. Can't wait to see this on a national level

See above. Under private insurance, my copays have gone up repeatedly, as have my deductibles and my premiums.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
That's incorrect. He's not my president, as he is ineligible to be in that position. To be truthful everything he has signed is invalid. I don't have to give up my citizenship for that fact.

Why is that? Because he wasn't born in this country? Do you honestly believe the conspiracy theories? If so, I have nothing left to say...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
And obviously, spending a trillion dollars we don't have is the only way to achieve that outcome.

Let's see, spend a trillion we don't have on a bloated military and an unnecessary war in Iraq or spend a trillion we don't have on health care? I know which one I'd rather have.

Quoting texan (Reply 53):
You obviously have no concept of what liberalism, communism (which is the correct spelling, by the way), Marxism and Leninism are. Moreover, you can't even realize that this bill helps private insurers. And you think he is ruling by decree? Comparing Obama to Chavez, Mao, and Hitler is ridiculous -- even more ridiculous than comparing former President Bush to those three. The Republicans and Democrats who voted against this bill used or succumbed to lies and scare tactics. The current bill is a weak bill that will not do much and certainly won't change your standard of living. You will have to -- wait for it -- be covered by health insurance by 2014!!! The horror! Please. This bill is a cave in to the right wing and they won't even support it. Start examining history and you will see that your accusations are so far off base they could be picked off by a blind pitcher.

     

Quoting Klaus (Reply 55):
You are wrong. The colour of his skin actually doesn't disqualify him in the USA of 2010 any more.

You went where I didn't want to go, but I do agree that for certain people in this country, their hatred of Obama and their claims of his ineligibility are both directly related to the color of his skin...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
Those "highly developed nations" like Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Spain, etc are second rate nations.

And you base your completely false categorization of these nations on which criteria?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
The United States is an exceptional institution. We should be the nation that doesn't need to collect revenue at gun-point to provide for the needs of our poor. We should be the nation where the middle class isn't subsidized on a daily basis. We should strive to be a republic with the smallest government possible, which is hard work.

And what exactly should we do? Leave the poor to die in the street? Make is so the middle class is squeezed out of the equation? What civilized nation believes in doing these things to its citizens? Certainly not any nation I want to live in.

[Edited 2010-03-21 21:26:30]
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
futurepilot16
Posts: 1756
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:20 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:23 am

Quoting wolbo (Reply 65):
Why is it that members of extreme political right wing in the US so often parade their ignorance and stupidity as if it were a badge of honor?

They just don't know because they're that ignorant.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
ipodguy7
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:25 am

If Obama's government taking away 40% of my fathers hard earned salary away for the "sake of the people" isn't MARXISM than I don't know that is? Adolf Hitler and Vladimir Lenin both promised bread, water, and equality but only brought death, destruction, and a dystopia.
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:26 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 64):
We don't let our lower-income or even poor remain uninsured and have their health in free fall until only emergency care can prevent the ultimate worst.

Neither do we...It's called Medicaid, and 15 million of those uninsured are about to be put on it.

And you're wrong about about them being in poor health:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/42xx/doc4210/05-12-Uninsured.pdf
Read Page 24.

And more here:

"Most of the uninsured (88 percent) are in good to excellent health. The likelihood of being insured rises with income and full-time work status, although nearly half (47 percent) of the uninsured are full-time workers. Hispanics are considerably more likely than those in any other ethnic category to be uninsured (over 30 percent). More than a quarter of the uninsured are foreign-born. By Census Bureau estimates, about 10 million uninsured are not citizens and half of them are illegal immigrants."

http://www.american.com/archive/2008...hat-do-we-know-about-the-uninsured
 
Klaus
Posts: 21538
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:28 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 70):
Most of the uninsured (88 percent) are in good to excellent health.

Sure. Meaning 12% are already in free fall, the remaining 88% one unforeseen serious health problem away from ruin.
 
Speedbird741
Posts: 404
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:13 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:28 am

My God....The great USA took yet another step in looking like europe, all I can say is GOOD LUCK to you all. As far as healthcare goes....just wait till you see hospitals close to you closing down because of a "cost cutting plan", or until you can't get surgery that you need for years, then you will see how bad what has happened really is. You can't work miracles, you can't insure more people whilst lowering the deficit....IT DOES NOT HAPPEN. The only way to do that is lowering the quality, close down hospitals, ultra rationalize care, etc etc etc...This is not the way to go. I know it all sounds very good "nobody left uninsured"...well here's what's going to happen, no one will be left uninsured but many many more will be left without care. Don't tell me I am wrong, because I am living it in my country. If not Portugal....look at the UK...or for that matter...any other country with a similar healthcare system....


Good luck America, hope the republicans come back, its time for America to STOP FOLLOWING EUROPE and to start leading the way once again. I think we all need to take a good look back at people like Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, we are taking steps back people....
Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:31 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 67):
We have a large standing army that we don't need and are fighting 2 wars that are costing us billions and trillions of dollars. Imagine what we could do without these three things. I'd much rather see our national debt rise as a result of healthcare than an overbloated military and unnecessary wars.

Trillions? You'll have a hard time proving that figure. And our entitlement programs make up more than FIFTY percent of the US budget..

The Military makes up 20'ish percent. And if you're so anti military tell Obama to stop the surge in Afghanistan and escalating our involvement in Pakistan...Then convince Bin Laden to stop trying to kill Americans...

Quoting OA412 (Reply 67):
My premiums have gone up every year for the last 3 years, as have my copays, and my deductibles. They are quickly rising to unsustainable levels for many of the people with whom I work. Remind me again why private insurance is so much better?

You do realize Obamacare doesn't create a public option right? And does NOTHING to stop rising costs? All it does is pass the buck to the states in the case of Medicaid expansion (15 million people) and the other 15 will be forced to buy insurance.

And the CBO has said it will make premiums rise even more.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9298
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:31 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 62):
First you save the lives of those who had been uninsured

Can certainly be achieved without the means used in this health care bill....

Quoting Klaus (Reply 62):
then you make your bureaucracy more effective without crippling it. And yes, it can be done!

In other words: rush something out the door and fix it later. That is never a recipe for success.

If it can be done, why wasn't it a priority to streamline our existing programs before creating new ones? Would that not strike you as the more responsible course of action?

Apparently the plight of the uninsured was so great that we couldn't the spare time to clean-up Social Security and Medicare, but we could spare 15 months to arrange all the kickbacks necessary to get the Democratic majorities in both the House and Senate to pass a Democratic bill.  
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2596
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:32 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
It's interesting that Democrats put the creation of a massive new spending program ahead of the recovery of our economic vitality and job markets. Really shows the priorities of liberals.

Your complaint is that they put health care reform before economic reform. So you are saying that liberals prioritized preserving life over preserving jobs, and that's a bad thing?

Quoting texan (Reply 53):
This bill is a cave in to the right wing and they won't even support it.

This bill is a mere shell of what it should have been. Democrats were elected to get big changes done, and all they did was this Republican-lite, watered down legislation. At least it has the reforms for pre-existing conditions and preventing you from getting kicked off your health coverage when you get sick. That's a step in the right direction.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
That's incorrect. He's not my president, as he is ineligible to be in that position. To be truthful everything he has signed is invalid.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
He needs to go back to his native-born Kenya and stop trying to destroy this country with his left wing stagger.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21538
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:32 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 69):
If Obama's government taking away 40% of my fathers hard earned salary away for the "sake of the people" isn't MARXISM than I don't know that is? Adolf Hitler and Vladimir Lenin both promised bread, water, and equality but only brought death, destruction, and a dystopia.

And you should draw consolation from the fact that providing proper healthcare actually wasn't the reason why their names are mentioned with terror and revulsion to this day.

I will wholeheartedly join you in your resistance against Obama as soon as he starts advocating the mass-murdering of people he did not happen to like. But where in the bill that passed today is a provision to that effect? Please specify page and paragraph.
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:13 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:35 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 75):
Your complaint is that they put health care reform before economic reform. So you are saying that liberals prioritized preserving life over preserving jobs, and that's a bad thing?

Question; with no economy to pay for it, wouldn't it mean more eventual deaths due to the lack of funding?
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
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OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4744
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:37 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 73):
Trillions? You'll have a hard time proving that figure. And our entitlement programs make up more than FIFTY percent of the US budget..

Then please, provide us all with the correct number.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 73):
And if you're so anti military

No, I'm against a large army that we don't need, not against us having an appropriately sized military.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 73):
You do realize Obamacare doesn't create a public option right?

Yes and that's why this isn't the Socialist, Communist, Leninist, Maoist, Marxist, Trostkyist bill that the right is making it out to be. It should have included a public option, but those in power caved to Republican demands in order to get this passed and now the Republicans won't even support it.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 75):
This bill is a mere shell of what it should have been. Democrats were elected to get big changes done, and all they did was this Republican-lite, watered down legislation.

  

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 75):
At least it has the reforms for pre-existing conditions and preventing you from getting kicked off your health coverage when you get sick.

Both extremely important reforms that should have happened years ago.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:37 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 71):
Sure. Meaning 12% are already in free fall, the remaining 88% one unforeseen serious health problem away from ruin.

That's quite a leap of logic on your part and conveniently forgets about Medicaid and the numerous state programs as a safety net. Of course Medicare exists for the elderly. Do the math and consult the actuary tables in terms of percentages of predominately the young (who make up the largest portion of the uninsured) getting gravely ill.

I also see you didn't bother to read the CBO link that confirms the majority of the uninsured are in good health.
 
andaman
Posts: 2271
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:38 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 63):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
Those "highly developed nations" like Canada, the UK, Germany, France, Spain, etc are second rate nations
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 63):
Thank you, now you see what we are up against sometimes. Just a little bit harsh to me, the second rate nation bit.

I think that bitter guy ranks my country even lower...  
Anyway, I don't get how it would had been better to leave millions of citizens without a health insurance, in a wealthy Western nation like US. Doesn't sound very democratic.
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
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OA412
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:38 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 79):
That's quite a leap of logic on your part and conveniently forgets about Medicaid and the numerous state programs as a safety net. Of course Medicare exists for the elderly. Do the math and consult the actuary tables in terms of percentages of predominately the young (who make up the largest portion of the uninsured) getting gravely ill.

What do you do about those who cannot afford private health insurance, yet don't qualify for Medicaid?
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2596
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:40 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 77):
Question; with no economy to pay for it, wouldn't it mean more eventual deaths due to the lack of funding?

So your argument is that without government intervention, the economy of the United States will collapse?
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:41 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 74):
In other words: rush something out the door and fix it later. That is never a recipe for success.

Improving the efficiency of bureaucracies can be very complex and time-consuming if you don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Given the urgency of getting people insured at all, I doubt that there would have been any chance at all if this would have been a precondition.

Besides: Private bureaucracies very often are just as inefficient and brutal as public ones, if not more so. The currently existing insurance industry in the USA is a case in point.

Given that US citizens get on average the same level of care as citizens in Europe (or less) but at massively higher cost only underscores that point further: The US system is massively inefficient from the point of view of the insured.

If you are really wealthy and can afford everything, you can in various cases get better care in the US, but if you aren't, you'd often be better off in many other countries.
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:41 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 78):
Then please, provide us all with the correct number

On this train of thought, I find it very ironic how I cannot find any government sources of various countries health care yet find only a vast wealth related to the US.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 78):
No, I'm against a large army that we don't need, not against us having an appropriately sized military.

I walk away laughing. Please stop talking about the military as you have no clue as is right now about it.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:44 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 82):
So your argument is that without government intervention, the economy of the United States will collapse?

It's already collapsing WITH government intervention, so I'll ask again; if nobody is making money, how is the government going to afford this health care plan? If you respond with another question, then I know where your stance is; you have no answer.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:45 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 79):
Do the math and consult the actuary tables in terms of percentages of predominately the young (who make up the largest portion of the uninsured) getting gravely ill.

What do you think health insurance is for?

If people knew for sure that they or their children(!) could never get sick, there would be no need for regular health insurance at all. But that's just the point: Anybody can develop a serious illness at any point in their lives – it is merely a matter of probabilities.

In the USA, for many people this meant they could not afford to take precautions and had no other choice but to take a gamble with an unknown probability - and possibly unrecoverable risks.
 
sv7887
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:46 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 83):
If you are really wealthy and can afford everything, you can in various cases get better care in the US, but if you aren't, you'd often be better off in many other countries.

That is patently not true. If that were the case, only the "wealthy" would be able to go to top Hospitals like Mass General or Johns Hopkins in the United States. Spend a day at one of those institutions and you'll see that's not the case.

My late father was an Engineer and received world class care for his cancer. The US for all its faults provides an excellent level of critical care, and its no wonder we have the highest cancer survival rates in the world. Yes there are many things we must do better: Preventive care, access, bureaucracy, etc, but to toss about such a statement "Only the rich in America" can afford medical care is just blatantly inaccurate.
 
Mir
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Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:47 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 73):
You do realize Obamacare doesn't create a public option right?

One of its larger failings.

Overall, I'm glad this got done, though it could have, and should have, been a lot better.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:52 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 86):
If people knew for sure that they or their children(!) could never get sick, there would be no need for regular health insurance at all. But that's just the point: Anybody can develop a serious illness at any point in their lives – it is merely a matter of probabilities.

And you continue to ignore the probabilities. Yes insurance exists for the reasons you state. But what is the percentage of my getting seriously ill at age 27 versus my mother at age 60? Drastically lower, hence the reason why I pay HALF what she does for insurance.

The actuaries aren't wrong, and that's why my premiums are lower than even what my company has to pay for their policy (300 vs 570 a month). And the facts show the majority of the uninsured are between 19-30's range and are relatively healthy. You can postulate what you want, but insurance for the relatively young wouldn't be so inexpensive (compared to middle age persons) if what you said was true.
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:54 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 87):
Yes there are many things we must do better: Preventive care, access, bureaucracy, etc, but to toss about such a statement "Only the rich in America" can afford medical care is just blatantly inaccurate.

The average of all healthcare is not favourable for the USA right now – neither the effective quality of care nor the exorbitant cost which is a multiple of the one of the other developed countries.

Yes, you can get lucky for a variety of reasons, but you can also get very unlucky as well.

But with today's decision you have a chance of improving your baseline and your cost-efficiency simultaneously — it is quite possible that you will indeed be able to improve the total quality of healthcare faster than the other countries can (many if not most of which have been in a near-constant reform process through the past decades as well).
 
texan
Posts: 4070
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:55 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 69):
If Obama's government taking away 40% of my fathers hard earned salary away for the "sake of the people" isn't MARXISM than I don't know that is?

I think it is a case where your father should recalculate his income tax since the maximum tax bracket is 35%, and that is for those earning over $373,650 per year. And the 35% number is the highest it reaches, not the baseline for that group.

And it sure as hell is not Marxism. If you don't know history, you probably shouldn't use historical terms to label current events. It portrays you as an ultracrepidarian, or someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Once you are no longer covered by daddy's insurance policy and have to pay for your own, hopefully you won't have to work under the current system. To give you an idea of how the system works: I paid for my own health insurance. My premiums increased over 20% year over year for three straight years, which took away my disposable income. In the bad economy, I lost my job. I could no longer pay for health insurance. So I was put on the Republican plan of "Just say NO to illness." But before I lost my insurance, I needed a CT Scan to check for lung malfunctions. After reading my insurance plan and consulting with the insurance company, we went ahead with the scan since it was going to be covered. But apparently the insurance company and I BOTH misread my plan -- I am a lawyer, by the way, and used to reading and interpreting fine print, of which there was plenty in the insurance terms. After fighting with them for seven months, I couldn't afford to fight them anymore. They covered $38 of my CT Scan, doctor visits, and blood tests. I covered over $3,000. And I still had to pay them over $2,000 per year for the "privilege" to have to pay all this crap out of pocket.

So quit your damn bitching. I played by the rules and got screwed over. Thousands of others are in the same damn position I am or worse. If you ever got out of your estate you might have noticed the rest of us who work damn hard and still can't afford to get sick. So you want to call that Marxian? I call what the insurance companies are doing RICO with the complicity of the U.S. government and lackadaisical ingrates like yourself. Grow up and start paying your own way and see how fairly you get treated. Until that time, shut up and be thankful that you can't get kicked off your plan for having a "pre-existing condition" like bronchitis. By the way, did you know that having bronchitis for multiple years precludes you from receiving treatment for almost all pulmonary problems? And that isn't a racket? Buzz off.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Klaus
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:58 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 89):
And you continue to ignore the probabilities. Yes insurance exists for the reasons you state. But what is the percentage of my getting seriously ill at age 27 versus my mother at age 60? Drastically lower, hence the reason why I pay HALF what she does for insurance.

Which is a stupid system because it almost automatically bankrupts non-wealthy pensioners (the same applies to private insurance in Germany – which is why it had to be modified recently), being made completely criminal if you can get kicked out or otherwise harrassed in case you actually got sick. But that's apparently getting improved now.
 
sv7887
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:05 am

Quoting texan (Reply 91):
To give you an idea of how the system works: I paid for my own health insurance. My premiums increased over 20% year over year for three straight years, which took away my disposable income. In the bad economy, I lost my job. I could no longer pay for health insurance. So I was put on the Republican plan of "Just say NO to illness." But before I lost my insurance, I needed a CT Scan to check for lung malfunctions. After reading my insurance plan and consulting with the insurance company, we went ahead with the scan since it was going to be covered. But apparently the insurance company and I BOTH misread my plan -- I am a lawyer, by the way, and used to reading and interpreting fine print, of which there was plenty in the insurance terms. After fighting with them for seven months, I couldn't afford to fight them anymore. They covered $38 of my CT Scan, doctor visits, and blood tests. I covered over $3,000. And I still had to pay them over $2,000 per year for the "privilege" to have to pay all this crap out of pocket

I'm very sorry to hear this, and I hope things work out for you. I went through a nasty unemployment spell of 13 months myself and it was extremely painful getting back on my feet. I'm glad that at least this Reform will help you.

It's cases like these that make Reform a needed thing, so I certainly can empathize with you. My only concern is paying for it. I would be OK with this plan if the government were more honest about what it's really going to cost and not cut sweetheart deals with the Unions.

I would have less pissed off about this if they simply had said, "Listen we need to do this, so we need to raise taxes x%" One can live with that.
 
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johnboy
Posts: 3094
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:06 am

To me it's a win-win situation......we provide healthcare to the great majority of citizens of this great country AND i get to witness the usual suspects' heads exploding.

A great, great night......!!!!

  
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13339
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:08 am

America lost today. A out of control inept congress put chest thumping and political posturing ahead of the people and a president that will do anything for a win went along. Well we will see what happens when the people in power get to the voting booths In the meantime maybe this empty suit can actually begin being a leader and try to handle the mess Biden has created in Israel?
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 7:31 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:10 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 92):
Which is a stupid system because it almost automatically bankrupts non-wealthy pensioners (the same applies to private insurance in Germany – which is why it had to be modified recently), being made completely criminal if you can get kicked out or otherwise harrassed in case you actually got sick. But that's apparently getting improved now.

This is very similar to what happened in Massachusetts. I don't have a problem with what you're saying at all. No one who pays their premiums should be kicked off or deliberately hassled in order to deny the claim. And sadly this happens all the time, whether it be Private Insurance or even Medicaid.

I am hoping we simply find a way to pay for it. I'm a Fiscal Conservative, but most of my leanings are pretty moderate. I believe in the essence of what this health bill is pushing for, I simply don't like the way they went out about half assing the cost estimates and pushing the Medicaid expansion onto the states.

I would have liked to have seen Tort Reform, more competition across state lines, and increased investigation of existing Medicare fraud to have been included in the bill.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4379
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:13 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 11):
Yippee. More of my freedom taken away. I can't wait to get to the hospital.
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 33):
I really don't understand the resistance to this bill or other healthcare reform.

What, specifically, is scaring people?

I read, and have been told that if you do not accept this plan, you can be jailed for up to 5 years? For the first time in my life, I feel like I am being forced to do something I am not too sure of. In fact, I almost feel like I am not free to choose. Please correct me if I am wrong!!!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
AirlineBrat
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:40 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:14 am

I no longer feel nervous about treating my 225/125 blood pressure. I was afraid that if I went to the doctor to treat my illness, it would put me in the pre-existing conditions column rendering me uninsurable. So I blew the doctor off for over 10 years. Now I feel safe enough to get healthy. My life is more important that corporate profit.
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4379
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:17 am

Hey, if they legalize marijuana, maybe the proceeds can pay for health care? Half of the nation would be too high to realize they are sick...      

And now the drug dealers have options when they get shot. Gang bangers too! Wow, I guess all my hard work to pay for my own insurance was a waste?

[Edited 2010-03-21 22:20:11]
I Am A Different Animal!!

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