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TLG
Posts: 381
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:41 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:18 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 12):
The funny part will be when 15 or so million people who are forced onto Medicaid because of this bill get a rude introduction to doctors who refuse the insurance and underfunded mandates from the States...

My family has used Medicaid in the past, and we've never seen any difference in the care we received. And I live in the Upper Midwest, which has some of the best health care known to mankind (Mayo Clinic for example)...

-TLG
 
sv7887
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:19 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 97):
I read, and have been told that if you do not accept this plan, you can be jailed for up to 5 years? For the first time in my life, I feel like I am being forced to do something I am not too sure of. In fact, I almost feel like I am not free to choose. Please correct me if I am wrong!!!

They'll just fine you I think, which will be enforceable by the IRS. They're not going to toss you in jail unless you refuse to pay the fine. Basically you'll have to do what we do in MA, and that is submit a 1099-HC that certifies you've been insured for the whole year with your Tax Return.

What will be interesting is how they establish the standards for what meets their minimum requirements for coverage. In MA we're required after age 26 to have Drug Coverage, whether we use it or not. At least in my case, I've found the State Run Insurance Exchange quite helpful in determining what plan was best for me, but the onerous requirements do make it quite expensive.

- Sam
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:13 pm

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:19 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 95):
America lost today. A out of control inept congress put chest thumping and political posturing ahead of the people and a president that will do anything for a win went along. Well we will see what happens when the people in power get to the voting booths In the meantime maybe this empty suit can actually begin being a leader and try to handle the mess Biden has created in Israel?

NIK, if people want to enjoy this moment, let them. They wanted this bad enough, let them (unfortunately along with us) suffer the consequences that will come with it. My only beef is they will not man up to admit they were wrong.

Off topic, from Obama's election thread back in 08', I'm surprisingly still employed as a defense contractor, so I'll eat crow about not losing my job. Apologies to all as my opinion was wrong.

U.S. Election - Obama Wins (by Moderators Nov 4 2008 in Non Aviation)

Quote:
I've effectively lost my job (defense contractor.) So share the wealth my way guys, I'll be jobless in less than two years.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:23 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 69):
If Obama's government taking away 40% of my fathers hard earned salary away for the "sake of the people" isn't MARXISM than I don't know that is? Adolf Hitler and Vladimir Lenin both promised bread, water, and equality but only brought death, destruction, and a dystopia.

Well said!

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 97):
I read, and have been told that if you do not accept this plan, you can be jailed for up to 5 years?

Yup, either except the federal rationing of your health care or go to prison.

Quoting AirlineBrat (Reply 98):
Now I feel safe enough to get healthy.

IF you had just chosen to go for a walk once in a while you would have lowered the cost for free.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
sv7887
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:24 am

Quoting TLG (Reply 100):
My family has used Medicaid in the past, and we've never seen any difference in the care we received. And I live in the Upper Midwest, which has some of the best health care known to mankind (Mayo Clinic for example)...

It depends on how well your particular State has funded their Medicaid programs. It would be interesting to see the numbers for your particular state. Also, I have seen numerous articles on the Mayo Clinic doing a much better job of containing costs than their Boston counterparts.

In Boston, the story is quite different unfortunately. The local hospitals here and elsewhere are starting to refuse to see patients or stall on their care because of the low reimbursement rates.

Some Info Here:
http://www.healthleadersmedia.com/co...ads-Nation-in-Physician-Wait-Times

"The survey of 1,162 medical offices also found that only 55% of physicians, on average, accept Medicaid patients because of the low reimbursements and filing hassles."

Then you see headlines like these:

"http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011367936_walgreens18m.html"

Walgreens: no new Medicaid patients as of April 16
 
texan
Posts: 4070
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:26 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 102):
My only beef is they will not man up to admit they were wrong.

As one who promoted a more effective plan -- either public option or, preferably, single payer -- this plan does nearly nothing I want it to. If it fails to deliver on even its modest promises, however, and I am still around, I sure as hell will say so and admit I shouldn't have been in favor of it. As long as you promise to do the same if it is effective.

Texan

edit: Took out a superfluous clause

[Edited 2010-03-21 22:30:00]
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Mir
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:27 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 102):
Off topic, from Obama's election thread back in 08', I'm surprisingly still employed as a defense contractor, so I'll eat crow about not losing my job. Apologies to all as my opinion was wrong.

Not entirely off topic - just as you were predicting gloom and doom back then and it didn't pan out that badly, those who are predicting gloom and doom about this would do well to wait and bit and see how things play out.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Alias1024
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:30 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 85):
It's already collapsing WITH government intervention

Not according to the economic indications that show the economy is GROWING.
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 85):
if nobody is making money, how is the government going to afford this health care plan?

In the long run it wouldn't. I won't argue that.

The problem is the premise that nobody is making money. It simply isn't true. Although things are not improving as quickly as I or anyone else would like, economic collapse appears to have been averted. A big, big economic bubble popped, and there's no way it wasn't going to be a long and painful recovery, regardless of which party was in power. Now that the train doesn't appear to be flying off the rails, it makes sense to prioritize keeping people alive over further economic meddling, unrealistically looking for some holy grail that will immediately restore the economy back to where it was during the bubble.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 85):
If you respond with another question, then I know where your stance is; you have no answer.

Someone is sensitive!

I was just trying to find out if conservatives were calling for government intervention in the economy. Are they? Oh crap, I just asked a question  
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:32 am

Quoting texan (Reply 105):
As long as you promise to do the same if it is effective.

Which, I hoped to have proved just a moment ago with my previous post.

Quoting Mir (Reply 106):
Not entirely off topic - just as you were predicting gloom and doom back then and it didn't pan out that badly, those who are predicting gloom and doom about this would do well to wait and bit and see how things play out.

This one I'll have to give at least two years. I was early for my previous post (by 7 months) because it doesn't look like I'll be going anywhere this year, but we'll see in two years time for this plan.

Anyway, I manned up, will the rest do the same?
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
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OA412
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:34 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 84):
I walk away laughing. Please stop talking about the military as you have no clue as is right now about it.

Oh really? Why don't I have a clue? Because you disagree with me? That doesn't mean that I don't have a clue, it means that our opinions on the matter differ. Or are you suggesting that yours is the only opinion that counts?

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 84):
On this train of thought, I find it very ironic how I cannot find any government sources of various countries health care yet find only a vast wealth related to the US.

What does this have to do with providing the dollar amount for the cost of a bloated military and the two wars we are currently fighting?

Quoting texan (Reply 91):
Once you are no longer covered by daddy's insurance policy and have to pay for your own, hopefully you won't have to work under the current system.

Indeed. Things change mighty quickly when we have to grow up and live in the real world. All of a sudden, things aren't so Marxist anymore.

Quoting texan (Reply 91):
I call what the insurance companies are doing RICO with the complicity of the U.S. government and lackadaisical ingrates like yourself. Grow up and start paying your own way and see how fairly you get treated.

  

Quoting johnboy (Reply 94):
To me it's a win-win situation......we provide healthcare to the great majority of citizens of this great country AND i get to witness the usual suspects' heads exploding.

  

Quoting AirlineBrat (Reply 98):
I no longer feel nervous about treating my 225/125 blood pressure. I was afraid that if I went to the doctor to treat my illness, it would put me in the pre-existing conditions column rendering me uninsurable. So I blew the doctor off for over 10 years. Now I feel safe enough to get healthy.

I sincerely hope you are joking, yet know that you're probably not. If you're serious (and I fear that you are) get to the doctor ASAP and get your blood pressure treated yesterday. That number is incredibly high and needs to be brought down immediately.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:36 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):

Passing off a bill as "Deficit reduction" by using sham accounting

The CBO is a non-partisan entity. There is no agenda there. They see ~200B deficit reduction.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 52):
It's interesting that Democrats put the creation of a massive new spending program ahead of the recovery of our economic vitality and job markets.

I believe the ARRA was passed well before this bill. Or perhaps I was in a time warp.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
Why the hell should I leave,

Because from your vitriol, I believe you would very much like to live in Myanmar. Better weather, no government-mandated healthcare, and a very conservative government. Bit authoritarian, but I think you'd enjoy that.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 34):
1) There is no such thing as a free lunch...does anyone agree with this anymore?

In healthcare there is such a thing. It costs a lot less to keep someone on a bunch of rather inexpensive drugs (hydrochlorothiazide, atorvastatin, benazepril, aspirin) than to have him on none of these medications and then present to the ED, uninsured, having a myocardial infarction (or worse, a stroke) and either 1) require a very expensive procedure for which he cannot pay or 2) need nursing home care for the rest of his life, for which he also cannot pay.

Much like in other things, paying a little now saves you a lot later.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 77):
Question; with no economy to pay for it, wouldn't it mean more eventual deaths due to the lack of funding?

Economy is doing better. People are getting jobs, companies are hiring. Unemployment is now starting to inch downwards. Obama said that it would take a long time for the recovery to hit and this is true. Everyone wanted it all better in six months. Well, with the GOP completely ignoring the situation for a DECADE, it's not going to go away in 12 or even 18 months, is it?

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 87):
That is patently not true. If that were the case, only the "wealthy" would be able to go to top Hospitals like Mass General or Johns Hopkins in the United States. Spend a day at one of those institutions and you'll see that's not the case.

No, but the poor people there without insurance will never be able to pay their bills. You are paying their bills. Either in tax subsidies to MGH/JH or through your health insurance. And, as I explained above, you will wind up paying less now that this bill has passed.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):

That's incorrect. He's not my president, as he is ineligible to be in that position.

Except your opinion doesn't matter. The Supreme Court already decided that. So did the Judge Advocate General when a serviceman decided that he did not need to take orders from an "illegitimate" President. Barak Obama is the President of the United States. And if you are a citizen, then he is YOUR President, whether you like it or not. If you do not like that, then you are free to proceed to any Federal office and renounce your citizenship. Um... I'd recommend that you secure a foreign citizenship first.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 96):
I would have liked to have seen Tort Reform, more competition across state lines, and increased investigation of existing Medicare fraud to have been included in the bill.

We desperately need Tort Reform. Basically, malpractice suits need to be evidence-based.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 72):
or until you can't get surgery that you need for years,

I keep hearing about this, but I have yet to hear of a single case of *needed* surgery being delayed. Now, I've heard about people with psychosomatic complaints not being able to receive adequate and timely care, this is true. But I've never heard of someone in, say, Canada, waiting years for a needed CABG.

I have, however, heard of patients in the "Greatest Healthcare System In The World" dying in the emergency room from neglect.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
sv7887
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:40 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 107):
The problem is the premise that nobody is making money. It simply isn't true. Although things are not improving as quickly as I or anyone else would like, economic collapse appears to have been averted. A big, big economic bubble popped, and there's no way it wasn't going to be a long and painful recovery, regardless of which party was in power. Now that the train doesn't appear to be flying off the rails, it makes sense to prioritize keeping people alive over further economic meddling, unrealistically looking for some holy grail that will immediately restore the economy back to where it was during the bubble.

Problem is nothing has been done to prevent such a thing from happening again. The Investment Banks are doing quite well again (just look at Goldman's stock price) and we haven't done anything to regulate financial derivatives or Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae. Not to mention the mess the housing markets are right now. A good deal of the GDP growth in 4Q 2009 was due to replenishment of inventories, that is companies who held back on expenditures finally had no choice but to spend to do so.

You're correct to say we've bottomed out, but...We lacking in job creation, unloading our Government intervention in the markets (5 more banks have failed last week), and consumers are still delevering from their massive households debt. The bigger problem is our National Debt and our ability to borrow from the Financial Markets. If we don't show the international community that we're serious about reining in our spending, you'll see that we'll have to raise our interest payments sharply on our debt and face ratings downgrades..

[Edited 2010-03-21 22:41:25]
 
JakeOrion
Posts: 1090
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:41 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 107):
ot according to the economic indications that show the economy is GROWING.

When you throw that much cash into it, one would hope it "grow." However, this is a "false" growth, as it is capitalizing on money that is non-existent. Sooner or later China and other countries will want compensation for our debt we continue to shell out on them. With no real money, that is when the system will crash. You continue to print money, sooner or later the inflation alone will begin the cause the real problems.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 107):
I was just trying to find out if conservatives were calling for government intervention in the economy.

We are moving off topic, but in my stance, it should have been better to let the automotive industry, bank industry collapse and lord knows whatever else collapse. It would have been painful yes, but eventually everything would have recovered under the free market.

Going to bed, good night.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
dxing
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:47 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Thread starter):
Woohoo! 219-212 in favor in the House to approve the Senate HCR bill. Vote on reconciliation measures coming up later tonight
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 1):
Great job to our gov't. every republican voted Nay? Didn't see that coming

178 Republicans and 34 Democrats voted against the bill. Guess that makes it a bipartisan opposition.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 104):
It depends on how well your particular State has funded their Medicaid programs.

After 2018, according to the plan, States have to pick up even more of the cost. That's the problem with plans like the Stimulus bill and such. We saw it in the 90's and now again. The Feds make the money available for only a few years so it looks like a really great thing, then the money runs out and it is left up to the local or State government to pick up the tab to continue the program or start handing out pink slips. Remember all those new policemen a few years back?

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 104):
Walgreens: no new Medicaid patients as of April 16

The democrats next target of opportunity.


In a few days we will wake up in a country where in order to be a citizen in good standing and out of legal trouble you will have to purchase something that the government decides. It's the commerce clause run amok.

Now the insurance company with the greatest number of denials of payment gets to set the rules.

Best of all, you get to pay for 4 years before you get the goods. As Yakov Smirnoff used to say "America, What a Country!"
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
sv7887
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
The CBO is a non-partisan entity. There is no agenda there. They see ~200B deficit reduction.

I'm not saying they were partisan, they simply have to take the bill at face value. The bill as structured immediately starts collecting tax revenues, but delays the actual program for 4 yrs. Hence it hides the true 10 yr cost of the measure. They quoted 940 Billion for SIX years of the program in action. It also does not account for restoring the cuts made in the bill (nearly 500 Billion) to Medicare that they used to create the fallacy of this bill being deficit reducing. There are a number of other half assed accounting done in that bill to make the savings of $138 Billion as quoted.

Remember, in order for reconciliation to work, they needed to show this as not increasing the deficit. Read the CBO report if you don't believe me.

Also have a look at the NYT article below:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
No, but the poor people there without insurance will never be able to pay their bills. You are paying their bills. Either in tax subsidies to MGH/JH or through your health insurance. And, as I explained above, you will wind up paying less now that this bill has passed.

This was the principle of RomneyCare in Massachusetts. For whatever reason it hasn't panned out that well. Essentially the state is losing their shirt on the subsidized insurance plans it offers to low income families. And you're right on, we pay for it one way or another, but I don't mind that at all. (Not very Republican of me now is it?)

If this works as written great, but government in general doesn't do a great job of predicting costs well (e.g. Pentagon weapons projects, etc) so I'm pessimistic that they'll get it right this time, especially with such a politicized bill.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:55 am

To quote a Star Wars movie: "So this is how freedom dies - to thunderous applause."

Thank you Congress and Mr. President - I've obviously been keeping ENTIRELY too much of my own money and tonight you solved that pesky problem for me.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:55 am

So glad that I live in the Republic of Texas and that Rick Perry is my President!
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
Speedbird741
Posts: 404
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:02 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
The CBO is a non-partisan entity. There is no agenda there. They see ~200B deficit reduction.

They also see premiums rising. Also, like I said, there is no way you can reduce deficit whilst insuring more people. Only way to do that is lowering the quality.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
Because from your vitriol, I believe you would very much like to live in Myanmar. Better weather, no government-mandated healthcare, and a very conservative government. Bit authoritarian, but I think you'd enjoy that.

He could also move to a country like Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Angola, so on so forth...how do those sound to you ?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
Economy is doing better. People are getting jobs, companies are hiring. Unemployment is now starting to inch downwards.

Lets see what happens when the short term stimulus money runs out. As far as jobs go, don't be fooled by the dimishing unemployment rate. The number of people that have been jobless for six months or more and that have given up looking for a job decreased in January numbers.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
We desperately need Tort Reform. Basically, malpractice suits need to be evidence-based.

100% agree. A good look at this, at contingency practices and MOSTLY at the drug industry would get us on a much better course. Not to mention if we completely opened up state lines for getting insured.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):
I have yet to hear of a single case of *needed* surgery being delayed.
http://diario.iol.pt/noticias/listas...is-saude-consultas/874056-291.html

Sorry its in Portuguese. If you take my word, it says that 600 000 are on a waiting lists for treatments and consultations , 209 000 are surgeries. These are long term waiting lists.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukforgets.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...y-mean-lifetime-agony-victims.html

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-ro...s-inferior-to-american-system.html


Speedbird741
Boa noite Faro, Air Portugal 257 climbing flight level 340
 
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KPDX
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:06 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 55):

You are wrong. The colour of his skin actually doesn't disqualify him in the USA of 2010 any more
Quoting OA412 (Reply 67):
You went where I didn't want to go, but I do agree that for certain people in this country, their hatred of Obama and their claims of his ineligibility are both directly related to the color of his skin...

YOU guys are sounding like the racists, if thats the first thing that came to your head. WOW, someone doesn't agree with a Liberal. Lets freak out and call them racists! How ignorant.   
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:11 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 118):
YOU guys are sounding like the racists, if thats the first thing that came to your head. WOW, someone doesn't agree with a Liberal. Lets freak out and call them racists! How ignorant.
He himself was claiming this:

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 40):
He's not my president, as he is ineligible to be in that position. To be truthful everything he has signed is invalid. I don't have to give up my citizenship for that fact.

The US Supreme Court has explicitly certified Obama's eligibility. What else but open racism is still in play to make a claim like that?

What?

[Edit: Attribution corrected]

[Edited 2010-03-21 23:35:23]
 
kaitak
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:14 am

Quoting GatorFan (Reply 16):
Anyone want to bet that 10 years from today, we'll see that the estimates on the cost of this were wrong by a factor of more than 100%?

Possibly, but by how much were the estimates for the Iraq war out? And at the end of that (which of course we haven't seen yet), how much will have been spent and what is the net effect for the people of the US? Fighting an unnecessary war which served very little purpose, apart from draining the coffers? At least if the healthcare costs go higher than planned, the people - who should be the beneficiaries of govt spending - will benefit. Can't help wondering what could have been spent on health, education etc if the Republicans didn't go hell for leather to invade Iraq.

Just as a historical note, has there ever been a piece of major social legislation which opponents have not labelled "socialist" (or "communistic", by those who don't know the difference)? The New Deal comes to mind. There is actually a word, which the rest of the world uses, for legislation to protect its people and to ensure that they have the basics (at the very least) to ensure that they can enjoy a decent, comfortable life ... it's called "society".

Can I also ask, if the Republicans are so vehemently against this legislation, will they be actively lobbying to reverse it if re-elected and will they be insisting that any 2012 presidential candidate commits to rolling it back?

[Edited 2010-03-21 23:20:46]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:14 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 119):
What else but open racism is still in play to make a claim like yours?

So someone who disagrees with the President is automatically a racist?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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OA412
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:17 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 118):
YOU guys are sounding like the racists, if thats the first thing that came to your head. WOW, someone doesn't agree with a Liberal. Lets freak out and call them racists! How ignorant.  

Run that by me again? How does believing that some opposition to Obama is racist make me a racist? That's right it doesn't, but I suppose you didn't know what else to say, so you chose to call us racists. Do you really believe that there are not people in this country who are opposed to Obama because of the color of his skin? Are they a majority? Doubtful, but let's not pretend that it doesn't exist.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:17 am

Congrats USA, and welcome to the developed world!
 
NIKV69
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:24 am

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 123):
Congrats USA, and welcome to the developed world!

Yea where the government takes 60% what you make and you have little or no chance to get ahead? Real developed.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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OA412
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:25 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 120):
Can I also ask, if the Republicans are so vehemently against this legislation, will they be actively lobbying to reverse it if re-elected and will they be insisting that any 2012 presidential candidate commits to rolling it back?

I would be shocked if both of those do not happen.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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KPDX
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:28 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 122):
Do you really believe that there are not people in this country who are opposed to Obama because of the color of his skin? Are they a majority? Doubtful, but let's not pretend that it doesn't exist.

Ok look, I'll be honest, I should have used a different choice of words.... With that said, I do agree there are SOME wackos like that, but c'mon, you are basically insisting that because someone doesn't agree with Obama, that is just because the color of his skin? That to me just sound so wrong.
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:30 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 121):
So someone who disagrees with the President is automatically a racist?


[Edit: my attribution of the claim had been incorrect by association]

He doesn't merely "disagree" with Obama, he has made the absolute claim that Obama was illegitimate and not his president, which is fundamentally different and severely questionable, if not outright treasonous if one considers such categories relevant.

The legitimacy of the President Of The USA is not a matter of free speech or personal opinion – it is a clear and legal status question with the US Supreme Court as the ultimate arbiter. And the USSC has in fact examined the legitimacy of the candidates during the election campaign and has explicitly confirmed the legitimacy of Obama's candidacy (and thus presidency after the election result has been certified in turn).

So now with all that out of the way:

What are the grounds of the claim that Obama's presidency was illegitimate?

This is rather serious at this point with the way he made his claim, so we definitely need to see the grounds for this claim.

[Edited 2010-03-21 23:33:39]
 
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KPDX
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:31 am

Also I must add, it's pretty sickening to see the true colors of quite a few folks in this thread. The real victory is the war when it comes to "Democrat vs. Republican." Not the bill. It is quite apparent.

It's no longer about whats good for your country, but good for your party....... (That goes for both sides of the political spectrum.)

[Edited 2010-03-21 23:34:36]
 
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OA412
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:34 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 126):
With that said, I do agree there are SOME wackos like that, but c'mon, you are basically insisting that because someone doesn't agree with Obama, that is just because the color of his skin? That to me just sound so wrong.

Again, that's not what I'm suggesting. There are many people who are opposed to Obama and his policies for legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with racism. However, there are people out there who are opposed to him because he is black. Nowhere am I suggesting that disagreeing with him is equivalent to racism.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:44 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 127):
What are the grounds of the claim that Obama's presidency was illegitimate?

While I don't agree with the suggestion that the President's election was somehow illlegitimate, I have an equal - if not greater - disagreement with your knee-jerk reaction to automatically attribute that comment as being the product of racism.

Frankly, it's cheap and cowardly to roll out the race card here.

[Edited 2010-03-21 23:47:52]
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andaman
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:46 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 72):
no one will be left uninsured but many many more will be left without care. Don't tell me I am wrong, because I am living it in my country. If not Portugal....look at the UK...or for that matter...any other country with a similar healthcare system..

I don't know what's wrong in Portugal but the Finnish public system works ok, for me at least... In the past couple of years I have needed health care more than ever before and the experiences have made me a lot happier tax payer. And still the "Nanny State" Finland spends a lot less (as % GDP) to the health care than US, also less than Portugal.

OECD: Healthcare spending as % GDP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:In...Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png
Chinese cookie in SFO: "You're doomed to a life of forever travelling abroad and to be able to afford it!"
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:51 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 130):
While I don't agree with that person's suggestion that the President's election was somehow illlegitimate, I have an equal - if not greater - disagreement with your knee-jerk reaction to automatically attribute that person's comment as the product of racism.

Frankly, it's cheap and cowardly to roll out the race card here.

No, it is not, given recent behaviour of the associates of the new republican mainstream.

The birther theories have been utterly debunked and obliterated by the USSC among others, so what else but open racism remains to support such claims of illegitimacy?

What else?

And why don't you, MSPNWA or his other defenders dare to speak your minds if the reasons are so plausible and innocent? Why?

This is kind of an important issue, and after producing the accusation, substantiation is required.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:57 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 117):
Sorry its in Portuguese. If you take my word, it says that 600 000 are on a waiting lists for treatments and consultations , 209 000 are surgeries. These are long term waiting lists.

It doesn't say what those treatments are or whether they are necessary. Surgery to, say, repair a torn rotator cuff isn't absolutely necessary. One of your articles even pointed out how the 18-month waiting list has disappeared.


Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 124):
Yea where the government takes 60% what you make and you have little or no chance to get ahead? Real developed.

Please cite a tax bracket for 60% in the U.S. tax code.

Oh, you won't. Not only because you can't, but because you are not interested in facts or in learning about them.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Alias1024
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:10 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 111):
Problem is nothing has been done to prevent such a thing from happening again. The Investment Banks are doing quite well again (just look at Goldman's stock price) and we haven't done anything to regulate financial derivatives or Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae.

You will get no argument from me on this point. This is a problem that needs to be fixed. Right now the brakes have been put on this market as banks de-leverage, but in another year or two this could be a big problem. Thankfully, it seems lawmakers on both sides see the need for this. I can't seem to turn on CNBC without seeing a House or Senate committee talking about this. Unfortunately, the lobbyists are doing a great job of keeping the two sides from doing any more than talking.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 112):
We are moving off topic, but in my stance, it should have been better to let the automotive industry, bank industry collapse and lord knows whatever else collapse. It would have been painful yes, but eventually everything would have recovered under the free market.

Fair enough. We disagree on it, but it's a legitimate viewpoint.

This is one of the few things I though President Bush got right. I felt the panic on Wall Street was so bad that they were going to throw the baby out with the bath water. Everything was so interconnected that it seemed to me the good banks would get thrown out with the bad ones out of irrational fear, and we'd all be back to putting our money in coffee cans buried in the back yard.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 119):
The US Supreme Court has explicitly certified Obama's eligibility. What else but open racism is still in play to make a claim like that?

I've got to disagree with you on this one. The hatred begins at anger over policies, but that anger and loathing gets affirmed and amplified by partisan commentators like Limbaugh, Olbermann, Hannity, Maddow and Beck. Once people get caught up in this loop of hatred and affirmation (whether it's the right's hatred of Obama or the left's hatred of Bush) they build a self image based on this far left or far right ideology. As that self image grows, it becomes easy to let go of rationality, both to build that image and to protect it from ideas and arguments that threaten it. It becomes us vs. them. Good vs. evil.

It's like being a sports fan. Rational arguments don't apply.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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propilot83
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:53 am

Thank God, finally after 100 years of worry, concern, and debate, this great country called "America" finally has a health care system in place. Screw the Republicans, all they care about is the rich, I love Obama and the Congress, good job to all of them for making history, health care is a significant priority for everyone, anywhere in this world. If you have cancer, a PhD isnt going to cure it now is it, thats right, we needed this 3,000 page bill baby! I am so happy to finally see this thing through, thank God!  
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:56 am

Congratulation's America !!            
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:36 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 134):
I've got to disagree with you on this one. The hatred begins at anger over policies, but that anger and loathing gets affirmed and amplified by partisan commentators like Limbaugh, Olbermann, Hannity, Maddow and Beck. Once people get caught up in this loop of hatred and affirmation (whether it's the right's hatred of Obama or the left's hatred of Bush) they build a self image based on this far left or far right ideology. As that self image grows, it becomes easy to let go of rationality, both to build that image and to protect it from ideas and arguments that threaten it. It becomes us vs. them. Good vs. evil.

The claim of illegitimacy uses a precise and specific term.

This is not just a matter of diffuse anger. With Bush the doubts about the legitimacy of his presidency were based specifically in the completely botched election, the obvious manipulations in Florida and the entire mess of the vote count which made that possibility plausible.

With Obama there is nothing like that in sight and even the bizarre birther claims have been debunked.

At the same time, racist remarks have been made repeatedly by the same kind of people which have been declared to be the new "mainstream" of the Republican Party by its leaders.

So don't you think someone who makes the specific claim that Obama's presidency was "illegitimate" should simply state the specific reason why he's thinking that?
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:42 am

Any guess as to how long it will be before the government passes laws banning tabacco, alcohol, red meat, donuts, french fries, ect, ect in order to keep Health Care costs down? After all these things have proven to cause ill health.
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:46 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 138):
Any guess as to how long it will be before the government passes laws banning tabacco, alcohol, red meat, donuts, french fries, ect, ect in order to keep Health Care costs down? After all these things have proven to cause ill health.

Well, it hasn't happened in any of the other countries that have universal health care, so it would be surprising if it happened in USA.

Typically, tobacco attracts a very high sales tax to fund the subsequent burden on the healthcare system, (so, it is a bit like "user pays")
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:48 am

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 138):
Any guess as to how long it will be before the government passes laws banning tabacco, alcohol, red meat, donuts, french fries, ect, ect in order to keep Health Care costs down? After all these things have proven to cause ill health.

What about Genes and not the sort you wear !

If your going to be that pedantic then shoot us all now and get it over and down with !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:53 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 132):
Frankly, it's cheap and cowardly to roll out the race card here.

No, it is not

It absolutely is. You're just trying to keep the discussion off-topic by accusing those who disagree of racism.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 132):

The birther theories have been utterly debunked and obliterated by the USSC among others, so what else but open racism remains to support such claims of illegitimacy?

What else?

Many extremists on the left claimed illegitimacy surrounding President Bush's election in 2000. Were they racists too?

Or maybe they were just people desperately grasping at any straws that could potentially undermine or call into question the President's policies because they disagreed with them so vehemently and had no other vehicle left at their disposal?

Hmm?

Nah, it must be racism. Because you said so.   


Again, I don't for a minute dispute the legitimacy of the election or anything surrounding it - Barack Obama is President of the United States, and he's MY President too - even though I wholeheartedly disagree with many of his policies.

However, for you to automatically claim someone who disagrees with him or questions the legitimacy of his election does so only out of racism is absolute hogwash and you know it.

Stop embarrassing yourself by clinging to this insane argument. It's sad.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Daleaholic
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:02 am

I'm not replying to anybody specific but just the American users who seem to think this is a bad thing...

How can something which saves lives be a bad thing?

Seems as though you can't accept people (who may be poor) having access to healthcare.
Yes, you will have to pay more taxes, but so does every other country with great healthcare systems. UK is a perfect example, we pay a shedload of tax... But at least we know when we're injured... We'll be going straight to the hospital and will be treated, without any hassle about 'insurance'. Money isn't an issue when it comes to health... Why should it be any different for the USA?

Like others have said... Welcome to the developed world.
Religion is an illusion of childhood... Outgrown under proper education.
 
slz396
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:03 am

Why keep debating and discussing the matter over and over again??

The law was passed in Congress and will soon be signed into law by the president.

It's a done deal now, so better get over it and start enjoying the benefits from it, either personally (if you haven't got health insurance yet) or in the knowledge that the lesser privileged of your country will no longer be deprived of what you have enjoyed for long.

Welcome to the civilized world, USA.
 
Klaus
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:16 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 141):
It absolutely is. You're just trying to keep the discussion off-topic by accusing those who disagree of racism.

Absolutely not.

The specific claim was made that Obama's presidency was illegitimate and no substantiation given.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 141):
Many extremists on the left claimed illegitimacy surrounding President Bush's election in 2000. Were they racists too?

In 2000 the highly dubious circumstances of the election gave ample reason to have doubts.

Where are the reasons now?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 141):
Again, I don't for a minute dispute the legitimacy of the election or anything surrounding it - Barack Obama is President of the United States, and he's MY President too - even though I wholeheartedly disagree with many of his policies.

I have nothing to criticize about that position, however it has nothing to do with what I was addressing.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 141):
However, for you to automatically claim someone who disagrees with him or questions the legitimacy of his election does so only out of racism is absolute hogwash and you know it.

No. In the obvious absence of any actually legal grounds for calling Obama's presidency illegitimate, racism is the obvious suspicion when the reasoning is apparently withheld.

Why are the reasons not named after the accusation has been made? Even the forum rules demand that!
 
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sebolino
Posts: 3564
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:21 am

Congratulations ! A great move for the American people.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:55 am

Congratulations America. A pity, but no great surprise, that there is so much bitterness flying around
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
na
Posts: 9737
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:32 am

Very good. Its about time as the US was the only major country cultivating third world standards in this respect for much to long. The only ones against it are just egoists.
 
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OA260
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:45 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 146):
Congratulations America. A pity, but no great surprise, that there is so much bitterness flying around

Very true shame that its so bitter. Congratulations to Obama and the Democrats, steering the USA in a more just direction.   
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Health Care Reform Passed!

Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:46 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 144):

Where are the reasons now?

I never said there were any valid reasons to question the President's legitimacy - only that those who do are most likely merely grasping at straws in any attempt to call him or his policies into question.

Now, is there a possibility that some who question his legitimacy do so out of racism? Sure, that's absolutely possible - there are all types of people in this world. But for you to paint with as broad strokes as you do, claiming that any question of the President's legitimacy is racism, is horribly naive and simplistic.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 144):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 141):
However, for you to automatically claim someone who disagrees with him or questions the legitimacy of his election does so only out of racism is absolute hogwash and you know it.

No. In the obvious absence of any actually legal grounds for calling Obama's presidency illegitimate, racism is the obvious suspicion when the reasoning is apparently withheld.

Again, racism is not "obvious" here, and tossing that assertion out in such a careless, cavalier fashion with nothing to substantiate it is crying wolf at its absolute worst. I'm surprised at you, frankly.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 143):
Why keep debating and discussing the matter over and over again??

The law was passed in Congress and will soon be signed into law by the president.

Why keep debating? Because this isn't what the American people wanted, as evidenced by every poll I've seen, not to mention the fact that every Republican and a good number of Democrats voted against it. This was something rammed down the public's throat unlike any law in history.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 143):
It's a done deal now

Not by a long shot. Sure, the President can sign it - but look for immediate injunctions against it, followed by lengthy court battles, where the SCOTUS will ultimately declare it unconstitutional.

Quoting slz396 (Reply 143):
Welcome to the civilized world, USA.

So we've not been 'civilized' until coming around to your way of doing things? How smug and condescending of you...   
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group

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