Quoting OA412 (Reply 20): Protect liberty? Please. What liberty have we lost?

The liberty to decide whether or not I want to buy health insurance. It is more significant to some than others, but the precedent is problematic no matter where you stand on insurance itself.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22): Let's see what the majority says in November.

I am so curious about this blind trust in majoritarianism. Do you think there is really any correlation between what the majority thinks or wants and what is good health, economic, or fiscal policy? Given that most people know woefully little about any of the 3, why do you place so much trust in them?

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 28): Do you think there is really any correlation between what the majority thinks or wants and what is good health, economic, or fiscal policy? Given that most people know woefully little about any of the 3, why do you place so much trust in them?

A majority is never fully trustworthy, and completely guilty of "group think." That is the danger of the majority. 1 or 2 leaders, and a bunch of sheep. "I am your Shepherd and you are my Sheep." - or something like that. I think I heard that in a fairytale once.

UAL

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 29): That is the danger of the majority

If that is a danger, then what the hell is democracy all about? Maybe Americans deserve to have a Joe McCarthy or a Timothy McVeigh or a Osama Bin :Laden type of personality show up once or twice every generation to remind us what is truly important in this country - authentic leadership put in place by the people and not put into power by special interest groups, lobbyists, the military-industrial complex, and all of the damn bankers on freaking Wall Street!

And this is coming from a registered LIbertarian, I am not a sheep of either political party!

[Edited 2010-03-24 22:49:35]

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 9): The Republicans are being a bunch of sore and angry losers playing to their base. The Democrats just have to let the Republicans play this out for a while, let the Republicans themselves look bad to the public and use the media to make Republicans themselves realize they need to participate normaly to get their needed input to deal with our many issues and problems.

   Being obstructionist on matters completely unrelated to health care is silly, childish, and isn't going to look good for the Republicans if they keep it up. If they want to make that bed, the Democrats need to make sure that they lie in it.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 28): The liberty to decide whether or not I want to buy health insurance. It is more significant to some than others, but the precedent is problematic no matter where you stand on insurance itself.

I don't have the choice of whether I want police protection or not - I've got to pay for it, because it's a public service. The decision to treat health care the same way rather than as a private commodity is significant, but not without precedent.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 28): I am so curious about this blind trust in majoritarianism. Do you think there is really any correlation between what the majority thinks or wants and what is good health, economic, or fiscal policy? Given that most people know woefully little about any of the 3, why do you place so much trust in them?

That's a fair point, but remember also that one of the talking points of those against the health care bill is that a majority of the people don't want it. By your logic, why should we place so much faith in that? It is a two-way street.

-Mir

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30): If that is a danger, then what the hell is democracy all about?

Sorry, perhaps I should have prefaced by saying that I'm a jaded bitter queer who sees the "majority" enjoying rights of which they deem me "unfit" for, and spend millions and millions of dollars to make sure I never see those rights based on a 2000 year old text. Sorry for not clarifying that statement. And I'm also sorry that I see those people, the majority, affiliated with the GOP. But, this isn't about gay rights, is it?

So excuse my stupid invalid comment, and continue...

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 28): Quoting OA412 (Reply 20): Protect liberty? Please. What liberty have we lost? The liberty to decide whether or not I want to buy health insurance. It is more significant to some than others, but the precedent is problematic no matter where you stand on insurance itself.

And AirStairs introduces OA412 to the mat...

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 33): And AirStairs introduces OA412 to the mat...

That was KO-worthy? Wow, how standards have fallen.  

-Mir

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): This immature, irresponsible and enormously costly stunt of shutting down all senate business simply because they can is the Republican senators' equivalent of their followers' bricks through windows. Does anyone remember when Newt Gingrich tried to shut down the government during the Clinton administration? It reflected very poorly on the Republican Party then and this will reflect poorly on the GOP today. Is this the GOP's way of cutting gas lines and throwing rocks through congressional offiice's windows?

Amen! The GOP has been stoking this fear and violence 24/7. I had to laugh my arse off when Glenn Beck refused to admit facts, which is no surprise given his cultic beliefs, and saying he was "done" talking about healthcare and started to demonize all the other legislation coming down the path. He refused to even mention what items actually were in the historic bill just passed. FAUX news pretended that nothing of import was going to help well over 150 million Americans in the coming 1/2 decade.

Quoting Mir (Reply 34): That was KO-worthy? Wow, how standards have fallen.

Yeah, totally. Historically KO's were awarded for factual information, not opinions. Or, they were issued for a hilarious comeback. But, what I never noticed before, was that the guy making the punch has "Sugar" on his waist. 

Quoting 474218 (Reply 13): Lets see where to begin...didn't the Democrats just ram through a health care bill that the majority of the people did not want? Next they plan to take on immigration reform again something the majority of the people are against and if thats not enough they want to pass Cap and Trade, which is based on junk science. Those are just a few threats the Democrats pose.

Who says the majority doesn't want it?! There's a few angry folks out there who are screaming the loudest. Americans by and large want health care reform. Obama had a resounding victory over McCain, and a big part of his agenda was reforming health care. He never hid this fact once during the election, and neither did many of the democrats in the house and senate. How can you say people don't want our elected officials to do this, when they voted them in on a platform of change?

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 14): Erm, the republicans didn't just ram a trillion dollars of unwanted "help" down our throats. I doubt they have much to worry about wrt looking bad compared to the other party here. . .

But they did ram trillions of dollars of debt down our throats by blowing up half the Middle East in endless wars while at the same time cutting taxes in a way that disproportionately favored the rich. Why is this any better than providing health care to all American citizens?

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 9): The Republicans are being a bunch of sore and angry losers playing to their base. The Democrats just have to let the Republicans play this out for a while, let the Republicans themselves look bad to the public and use the media to make Republicans themselves realize they need to participate normaly to get their needed input to deal with our many issues and problems. Democrats too must also move more to the center as well and not just listen to their base.

  

You know, more and more I think that health care supporters should be thanking Republicans for giving them the opportunity to pass these reforms. Republicans were in charge of the government for 8 years and what do we have? Two endless wars, trillions in debt, near double-digit unemployment, a global financial crisis, hatred from the rest of the world, increasing crime, more government control over our personal lives, and the list goes on and on. Had Republicans not screwed the country up so badly, Americans wouldn't have voted them out en masse in the way that they did, thus creating an opening for Democrats to take a majority and pass health care legislation. Thanks GOP!

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 33): And AirStairs introduces OA412 to the mat...

Yeah not so much. People keep talking about the loss of freedom and liberty as if not having health insurance is some important freedom. It's not, and frankly those claiming that we've lost liberty because we must all be insured (by 2014 no less) ought to be ashamed of themselves. Additionally, this claim assumes that all of the uninsured in this country are that way by choice. Do you honestly and truly believe that?

When Thomas Jefferson drafted the Declaration of Independence, he spoke of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness yet so many of you are hell-bent on focusing on liberty while completely ignoring the other two. The right to Life and the right to the Pursuit of Happiness are both intrinsically tied to good health.

There are currently about 46.3 million people in this country without health insurance. The vast majority of these people did not choose to go uninsured because they were given the freedom of choice and arguing otherwise is disingenuous. So explain to me how those whose "health plan" involves only going to the ER for the most serious ailments and avoiding all routine (possibly lifesaving) procedures because they simply can't afford them are truly fulfilling all three of the basic human rights put forth by Jefferson? What's that, they're not? Didn't think so. Not so much of a KO now is it?

Quoting Mir (Reply 34): That was KO-worthy? Wow, how standards have fallen.

Indeed.

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 37): But they did ram trillions of dollars of debt down our throats by blowing up half the Middle East in endless wars while at the same time cutting taxes in a way that disproportionately favored the rich. Why is this any better than providing health care to all American citizens?

Frankly, anyone who argues that the wars and tax cuts for the rich are better than healthcare ought to be ashamed of themselves. I've said it before and I'll say it again, imagine what we could do in this country with all the money being spent on those wars.

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 37): Who says the majority doesn't want it?! There's a few angry folks out there who are screaming the loudest. Americans by and large want health care reform. Obama had a resounding victory over McCain, and a big part of his agenda was reforming health care. He never hid this fact once during the election, and neither did many of the democrats in the house and senate. How can you say people don't want our elected officials to do this, when they voted them in on a platform of change?

That's the thing that makes me laugh every time I hear a conservative say "wait til December". People voted for Obama and those in the Senate knowing full well that health care reform was going to be one of his top priorities, yet there are those in the GOP now claiming that independents were duped into voting for him. Seriously? Do you really believe that independents in this country are idiots, because I certainly don't? Just more misinformation from some of the usual suspects.

[Edited 2010-03-25 11:32:21]

Quoting OA412 (Reply 38): this claim assumes that all of the uninsured in this country are that way by choice. Do you honestly and truly believe that?

Of course not. However, I have a huge issue with forcing change upon those who do choose to be uninsured - and there are plenty of them out there.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 38): explain to me how those whose "health plan" involves only going to the ER for the most serious ailments and avoiding all routine (possibly lifesaving) procedures because they simply can't afford them are truly fulfilling all three of the basic human rights put forth by Jefferson?

And that's the basic difference between your way of thinking and my way of thinking - Jefferson didn't believe the government's role is to ensure you fulfill those basic human rights, but rather to ensure that government doesn't actively deny you from trying to fulfill them. He wanted and believed in LESS government, not more.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39): Of course not. However, I have a huge issue with forcing change upon those who do choose to be uninsured - and there are plenty of them out there.

Then how do we ensure they don't take advantage of the system? Do we put them on a blacklist where they are to be denied any treatment (or at least, the government won't reimburse emergency rooms that treat them)? I have a huge issue with people who refuse to take responsibility for their own health. Up until now, some people couldn't afford it, but under this bill there will be no excuse for not having health care.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39): And that's the basic difference between your way of thinking and my way of thinking - Jefferson didn't believe the government's role is to ensure you fulfill those basic human rights, but rather to ensure that government doesn't actively deny you from trying to fulfill them. He wanted and believed in LESS government, not more.

I think a lot of people prefer less regulation to more regulation. But there are times throughout our history when we as a society decided that government regulation was necessary. Several reforms were created out of the great depression, including SEC regulation of securities and eventually social security, for example. From the standpoint of a greater society, it is unacceptable that health care is out of reach to a large segment of the population for financial reasons alone. I don't see this as government being involved in personal lives; I see it as a collective decision that all in our country deserve and should have access to health care.

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 40): But there are times throughout our history when we as a society decided that government regulation was necessary. Several reforms were created out of the great depression, including SEC regulation of securities

And the fundamental difference is that the regulations you speak of all pertain to optional, voluntary businesses, industries or facets of life.

Regarding healthcare, will my taxes go up? Absolutely. Does that make me happy? Not in the least. But I can learn to live with it. The problem I absolutely refuse to learn to live with is the government making something mandatory for all citizens to purchase, because it leads to a slippery slope where anything else is possible as well.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 41): And the fundamental difference is that the regulations you speak of all pertain to optional, voluntary businesses, industries or facets of life. Regarding healthcare, will my taxes go up? Absolutely. Does that make me happy? Not in the least. But I can learn to live with it. The problem I absolutely refuse to learn to live with is the government making something mandatory for all citizens to purchase, because it leads to a slippery slope where anything else is possible as well.

The government already makes it mandatory for you to pay for medicare and to pay for social security. This really isn't any different. Regarding increased taxes, it's something that has to happen healthcare or no. You can't cut taxes and simultaneously start two wars and expect budget sustainability. The only difference with this tax increase is that it would provide a tangible benefit to all Americans.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 30): If that is a danger, then what the hell is democracy all about?

Democracy is about governance by the consent of the people, it is not about majority rule. The defenders of California's Prop 8 routinely use majority rule to legitimize the measure, which is meaningless because the majority cannot (or at least should not) be able to allocate and dispose of rights on a whim. If the majority is in favor of resegregating schools and restaurants, does that make it a good or appropriate policy?

Quoting Mir (Reply 31): That's a fair point, but remember also that one of the talking points of those against the health care bill is that a majority of the people don't want it. By your logic, why should we place so much faith in that? It is a two-way street.

I don't think we should place much faith in that fact that many people are for or against it because many people for it have only their most myopic self-interest in mind and many people against it have no idea what is even in it.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 38): Additionally, this claim assumes that all of the uninsured in this country are that way by choice. Do you honestly and truly believe that?

Of course I don't but my claim does not assume that at all. It assumes that the ideas of this country are grounded not in government, but the limitation of government. Insurance mandates present an unwarranted expansion of government.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 38): The right to Life and the right to the Pursuit of Happiness are both intrinsically tied to good health.

The right to life does not mean the right to the Mayo Clinic.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15): They did pass healthcare, and we shall see shortly what the people think of it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22): Starting to look like the majority are happy with the reform. Maybe it's because they slowly learned about the good parts, even with the Republicans trying to make it look bad.

New CBS opinion poll does not seem to show that the majority are happy with it. Two in three Americans still want Republicans to fight it even after Obama signed it. Seems politically expedient for the Republicans to still try and stop it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001117-503544.html?tag=pop

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 10):

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 42): The only difference with this tax increase is that it would provide a tangible benefit to all Americans

What tangible benefit will it provide to us Americans who work hard and already have great heath insurance?

I do not consider higher taxes, more bureaucracy, and sky rocketing debt and government instability to be a tangible benefit for this American.

As far as the GOP acting like idiots...they are politicians, they do not know how to behave otherwise. I do not see why your expectations of them are higher.

Quoting pgh234 (Reply 45): What tangible benefit will it provide to us Americans who work hard and already have great heath insurance?

It will benefit you when you lose your job through no fault of your own, and have no other means to afford health insurance. This has happened to a LOT of people over the last couple of years. It isn't bad to have a safety net.

Quoting AirStairs (Reply 43): The right to life does not mean the right to the Mayo Clinic.

That's fine, but shouldn't it mean the right to see a local oncologist, gynecologist or any-ologist? You don't have to go to the Mayo Clinic to receive high quality health care.

Hazmat now at Rep. Anthony Wiener's office in DC due to a threatening letter concerning Health Care which contained white powder...

Quoting rwSEA (Reply 46): It will benefit you when you lose your job through no fault of your own, and have no other means to afford health insurance. This has happened to a LOT of people over the last couple of years. It isn't bad to have a safety net.

It is not your responsibility to pay for my health care! I may lose my job if a "big evil corporation" shuts down...but guess what...I can go out and get another one! When you actually produce something or have useful skills and knowledge, it is not difficult to get jobs!...that is how capitalism works! Sometimes you hit rough patches...but if you have enough common sense to make a savings account and you have family and friends to help you...you can get through anything. Hell, even the Amish understand this. If your current skill set causes you to leech of off society...then you need to go out and get new skill sets!

If you are my friend/family/neighbor and I desire to help you in rough times...I can do it a TON more efficiently and more quickly than some government bureaucracy. Net money is saved in the process because we didn't need to hire another 16,000 people on my tax dollar.