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Yellowstone
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Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:49 pm

From Wikileaks today, gun camera footage of an attack by US forces in 2007 that resulted in the deaths of several Iraqi civilians, and two Reuters reporters. Several of the Iraqi casualties, including a young Iraqi girl, occurred when the US forces opened fire on a van that had stopped to assist the wounded from the initial attack. The footage was being kept classified by the US government, which had denied any wrongdoing in the incident.

Raw video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik

Annotated video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0&feature=youtu.be

Wikileaks:
http://wikileaks.org/

Initial Reuters report on the attack, from 2007:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL...:a49:g43:r1:c0.333333:b31590548:z0
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KPDX
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:01 pm

Very sad and horrendous.... but what good does it do to post it here? This thread is going to turn into a real shitstorm...real fast.

[Edited 2010-04-05 11:05:05]
 
ajd1992
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:04 pm

Maybe but the world needs to see - the image of war that CNN and Fox present is far different and less gruesome than the real thing.
 
JRadier
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:13 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 1):
Very sad and horrendous.... but what good does it do to post it here? This thread is going to turn into a real shitstorm...real fast.

Sounds like austridge tactics to me..... put your head in the sand and pretend there isn't a shitstorm...
 
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LTU932
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:15 pm

I'm not sure whether to trust the source, or just dismiss this as a conspiracy and fabrication, so no judgement from me. That being said, if this is true, and the DoD did indeed try to hide this video in order to avoid an admission of murder, then this will grow into one of the biggest political and military scandals in US history, even worse than Vietnam and Watergate combined.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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KPDX
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:16 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 3):
Sounds like austridge tactics to me..... put your head in the sand and pretend there isn't a shitstorm...

My point is, it's going to turn into "EVIL AMERICANS!!!111" even though most of us disagree with this, and you know something about Bush is going to pop-up somewhere.

[Edited 2010-04-05 11:19:17]
 
racko
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:28 pm

This wasn't murder. A terrible mistake and a lack of due diligence, yes, but they probably genuinely believed they were attacking insurgents.

The intercom transmissions from the gunner make terrible PR though. He sounds really trigger-happy, even if it's just the way you talk when you're in their situation.
 
flanker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:41 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 6):
This wasn't murder. A terrible mistake and a lack of due diligence, yes, but they probably genuinely believed they were attacking insurgents

No gunner in their right mind would engage known civilians or reporters.
 
sv7887
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:47 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Thread starter):
Several of the Iraqi casualties, including a young Iraqi girl, occurred when the US forces opened fire on a van that had stopped to assist the wounded from the initial attack

So people with AK-47s and an RPG are shot at by a US helicopter that was protecting a column of Humvees? And then a van with no markings whatsoever to denote it was an emergency vehicle tries to help them.....

Given the state of Iraq in 2007 I don't blame the US soldiers for being worried for their safety. It's easy for all your armchair quarterbacks to second guess American soldiers, but it's not your life on the line. It's theirs.

You're so quick to judge, but you weren't there, and you clearly don't recall the lessons of Somalia.

War is an ugly thing.
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 5):
My point is, it's going to turn into "EVIL AMERICANS!!!111" even though most of us disagree with this, and you know something about Bush is going to pop-up somewhere.

Maybe but this is important.

Quoting racko (Reply 6):
This wasn't murder. A terrible mistake and a lack of due diligence, yes, but they probably genuinely believed they were attacking insurgents.

The intercom transmissions from the gunner make terrible PR though. He sounds really trigger-happy, even if it's just the way you talk when you're in their situation.

Are you kidding me. Why would you simply fire on a group of people because you think they may be carrying guns. Without actually checking. They identified cameras as guns. And why would you fire on a van that comes to help the wounded?

The right thing to do would have been to have a ground unit intercept them to see if they actually had guns. If the US fires indiscriminately on random people they think might have guns then they are murdering a hell of a a lot of people.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):
So people with AK-47s and an RPG are shot at by a US helicopter that was protecting a column of Humvees?

No RPG - what the pilot was claiming was an RPG was a camera with a telephoto lens. And the AK-47s - this is Iraq! It's not exactly uncommon for people to carry those around.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):
And then a van with no markings whatsoever to denote it was an emergency vehicle tries to help them.....

In other words - the van driver was a Good Samaritan. Showing absolutely no signs that he was going to engage the US forces. And they still killed him. Nice job, that.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:57 pm

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):
So people with AK-47s and an RPG are shot at by a US helicopter that was protecting a column of Humvees? And then a van with no markings whatsoever to denote it was an emergency vehicle tries to help them.....

You're right... except of course for that minor detail that the people shot at had neither AK47s nor RPGs. And nowhere in the video does it show any weaponry.

I will agree with you though that it's easy to second guess soldiers from behind our computers.
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sv7887
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
No RPG - what the pilot was claiming was an RPG was a camera with a telephoto lens. And the AK-47s - this is Iraq! It's not exactly uncommon for people to carry those around.


And regarding the RPG....The pilot knew this how? Like I said, easy to judge as a Monday Morning Quarterback.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
In other words - the van driver was a Good Samaritan. Showing absolutely no signs that he was going to engage the US forces. And they still killed him. Nice job, that.

Like they knew that? They DID radio back to get permission and clearly explained what was going on. You are acting so holier than thou from the comforts of your college lifestyle. Give me a break.

Iraq in 2007 was a bloodbath. You make it sound like some gung ho Helipcopter pilots flew in and just opened up for no reason. That's a heck of a lot different than Insurgents blowing up their own people.

[Edited 2010-04-05 12:03:02]
 
PPVRA
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:01 pm

Even more disturbing:

Quote:
Pentagon deems Wikileaks a national security threat

The Pentagon has decided a website that allows the public to leak sensitive information is a threat to national security after it posted a string of US army intelligence secrets.

. . .

Its authors warned that the lack of editorial oversight over what could be posted could lead to it being used to spread lies and propaganda.

. . .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...ks-a-national-security-threat.html

Editorial oversight? Sounds like the Army has been engaging in a bit more than "editorial oversight" from the story told!!! Censorship is more like it.

Quote:
Their report also revealed that the army had tried to discover the identity of a possible mole leaking information to the site.

And apparently release it to the public, which would have constituted an attack on wikileaks:

Quote:
"Wikileaks.org uses trust as a center of gravity by assuring insiders, leakers, and whistleblowers who pass information to Wikileaks.org personnel or who post information to the Web site that they will remain anonymous," the report said.

"The identification, exposure, or termination of employment of or legal actions against current or former insiders, leakers, or whistleblowers could damage or destroy this center of gravity and deter others from using Wikileaks.org to make such information public."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/16/army_wikileaks/

[Edited 2010-04-05 12:06:54]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:21 pm

Turns out that the van that arrives to help the wounded was a family father driving his two daughters to a private tutor when he saw a wounded individual at the side of the road and stopped to help them out. He also had some of his neighbors in the car who had asked him for a ride somewhere.

So a family father trying to help a wounded journalist was shot by american helicopters.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:40 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Thread starter):
The footage was being kept classified by the US government, which had denied any wrongdoing in the incident.

Sorry, but these U.S. soldiers did their jobs wrong, and whoever gave the go to kill those men on the ground, as well as those who carried out the attack, should all be court martialed. They could not confirm clearly whether or not there were weapons and to me, it looks like involuntary manslaughter. Shame on them for not taking the time to confirm their suspicions and shame on the U.S. military for not properly training these guys to perform their duties... We all expect the best from our men and women in uniform, but this is ridiculous.   
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:48 pm

This is going to sound callous, but I don't really care all that much: so what's the big deal, here?

What exactly is was so horrendous? Honestly, I feel like I just wasted those 30 minutes, because I kept waiting for something to actually happen, to warrant all this attention. That engagement was completely legitimate, and the crew went through the proper steps and procedures. I don't see what the big commotion is all about. Honestly, I've engaged on less, and I don't regret any of those engagements. I was there in July '07 (oddly enough I checked my log book and I was flying that day) but I can say that idiots walking around with AKs and RPGs - especially those taking pop shots - had it coming. That's just the way it went.

And as for the little girl... well the the hell were those people doing, bringing a child into a hot engagement? I'm sorry her parents were dumbf*cks, and got her killed.

[Edited 2010-04-05 12:49:40]
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Yellowstone
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:54 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
but I can say that idiots walking around with AKs and RPGs - especially those taking pop shots - had it coming. That's just the way it went.

Did you happen to notice in the video that no one in that group fired a single shot? Not only that, but the "RPG" was camera equipment.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
well the the hell were those people doing, bringing a child into a hot engagement?

Trying to aid wounded civilians.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
That engagement was completely legitimate, and the crew went through the proper steps and procedures.

So the US Army is okay with attacking people providing medical assistance to the wounded?
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
PDXBJV
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:54 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
And as for the little girl... well the the hell were those people doing, bringing a child into a hot engagement? I'm sorry her parents were dumbf*cks, and got her killed.

So you just expect everyone to keep inside during this time of war?? Like someone said, he was taking them for TUTORING. Kind of sounds like he was being a good father to me.........
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futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:55 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
This is going to sound callous, but I don't really care all that much: so what's the big deal, here?

What exactly is was so horrendous? Honestly, I feel like I just wasted those 30 minutes, because I kept waiting for something to actually happen, to warrant all this attention. That engagement was completely legitimate, and the crew went through the proper steps and procedures. I don't see what the big commotion is all about. Honestly, I've engaged on less, and I don't regret any of those engagements. I was there in July '07 (oddly enough I checked my log book and I was flying that day) but I can say that idiots walking around with AKs and RPGs - especially those taking pop shots - had it coming. That's just the way it went.

And as for the little girl... well the the hell were those people doing, bringing a child into a hot engagement? I'm sorry her parents were dumbf*cks, and got her killed.

Do you not realize that those were civilians WITHOUT weapons who were murdered? Or is it that you just didn't bother to read that. Do you not realize that two Reuters reporters were MURDERED and the U.S. military (like they always do) covered it up, in order to avoid embarrassment. So i'm pretty sure you're ok with killing civilians as long as you THINK they have a weapon. Am I right? You don't mind if it's a kid with a piece of stick playing around with his friends?
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
PPVRA
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:00 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):

Even if they were carrying weapons, does the military just assume they are enemies?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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casinterest
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:07 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Even if they were carrying weapons, does the military just assume they are enemies?

It's called war. Go read about it. It is quite opposite from peace.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 19):
you not realize that those were civilians WITHOUT weapons who were murdered? Or is it that you just didn't bother to read that. Do you not realize that two Reuters reporters were MURDERED and the U.S. military (like they always do) covered it up, in order to avoid embarrassment. So i'm pretty sure you're ok with killing civilians as long as you THINK they have a weapon. Am I right? You don't mind if it's a kid with a piece of stick playing around with his friends?

Once again it is called War. No one is safe in a war zone, especially when everyone has a chance to be killed by ignoring a potential threat.
When you go to serve in the war, you can walk door to door and ask if they are a good guy bad guy, but if you have been fired upon and your buddies are in danger on team blue, then to hell with anyone around team red. It's sad. it's tragic. but once agian, it's war.

Quoting PDXBJV (Reply 18):
So you just expect everyone to keep inside during this time of war?? Like someone said, he was taking them for TUTORING. Kind of sounds like he was being a good father to me.........

It's War,they endangered themselves in a war zone.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 17):
So the US Army is okay with attacking people providing medical assistance to the wounded?

When did God give you the omipotent power of 20/20 foresight?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:12 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 17):
Did you happen to notice in the video that no one in that group fired a single shot? Not only that, but the "RPG" was camera equipment.

Ok, let me step back. Perhaps my first reply was a bit to raw. But honestly, I have no issue with this engagement, and I will try to explain so in a more measured and professional manner.

With that being said, let me explain - as someone who's been there - how this works. The criteria for aerial engagement does not stipulate that the aircraft (in this case Crazy Horse 18) needs to be fired upon, in order to engage. In the role of aerial support to the on-scene ground commander (in this case Hotel 6), the aircraft receives clearance of fires from that ground commander. Which means the ground element can identify the threat, relate that threat to the aerial support, and the ground commander can then authorize the strike. ...Which is what the case was, for this engagement.

They were responding to the threat related via the ground element. I've seen engagements go down like this countless times. A group of men, with weapons cooregating in a known area of recent activity... one will quickly step out from behind the corner and fire a few rounds. This engagement looked no different.

I saw three AKs, and only after I paused and re-watched the video, was when I could see that it wasn't an RPG, but rather a camera. But nonetheless he was in the same pose that one fires an RPG.

Did it end poorly? Obviously. But there was nothing malicious or negligent in the lead-up. For the reporters, I chalk their death up to being with the wrong crowd, at the wrong time. And as for the little girl, I still maintain that her father - no matter how noble his intent - was a fool to rush into a hot engagement.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 19):

Well first, there's no reason that you need to become unhinged. I'll gladly discuss this, but you're going to have to at least try to remain calm about this. When you're ready to knock it down a few notches, and approach this without the hysteria, let me know.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:18 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Even if they were carrying weapons, does the military just assume they are enemies?

No. The presence of a weapon does not constitute grounds for immediate engagement. However, individuals with weapons, in the vicinity of reported received SAF, can constitute grounds for engagement. The PIC has the responsibility to properly identify and target the individuals that the ground element is reporting. Once he does so, he cannot fire unless the 6 element authorizes it.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:25 pm

Quoting casInterest (Reply 21):

Once again it is called War. No one is safe in a war zone, especially when everyone has a chance to be killed by ignoring a potential threat.
When you go to serve in the war, you can walk door to door and ask if they are a good guy bad guy, but if you have been fired upon and your buddies are in danger on team blue, then to hell with anyone around team red. It's sad. it's tragic. but once agian, it's war.

I came off a little callous, but i'm really angry that people don't see how big of an issue this. You don't just dismiss 15 civilian deaths as "It happens". That's unacceptable. If Marines and Soldiers on the ground can't handle making the right decisions to avert as little civilian casualties as possible, then their superiors need to get them out of there and put someone in that situation who can make the decision. If this was a case where one or two civilians or reporters were caught in the middle while interviewing insurgents, fine I understand. But with no probable cause, mistaking a camera for an RPG, you fire on numerous people?

If the Iraqis had fired on a U.S. patrol by mistake, killing U.S. soldiers, it would be hell to pay. However, the glorious U.S. military is able to cover up an appalling incident for almost three years, in order to save face. At least insurgents admit to going out there to commit murder, our cowardice military just hides it under a dark cloud lead by media.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
Well first, there's no reason that you need to become unhinged. I'll gladly discuss this, but you're going to have to at least try to remain calm about this. When you're ready to knock it down a few notches, and approach this without the hysteria, let me know.

Look, I understand the need to make decisions under pressure, but IMHO, it was unacceptable. I'm sure if I told you that the 3000+ American that died on 9/11 were just "caught in the middle of war", you'd be angry. Well, I am telling you this because what these soldiers did to the 12 people that were killed, is on the same path of what happened to civilians on 9/11.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
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casinterest
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:34 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
However, the glorious U.S. military is able to cover up an appalling incident for almost three years, in order to save face.

Did you read the Reuters article?
This wasn't covered up. Everyone knew what happened.

This video doesn't change anything other than to give it context.
The gunner did his job. And he made it in the heat of engagement.
I can't speak for his feelings on the issue, but I would imagine he felt bad about this, but he still had no other choice in the split decision he had to make.

It's tragic. It's war.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
But with no probable cause, mistaking a camera for an RPG, you fire on numerous people?

It should not be overlooked that it's very easy for you to sit in your dorm room, and enjoy the luxury of 20/20 knowledge. It's very easy for all of us to intently look at the shape of the object he was holding, and discern that it was a camera. Especially since now, we know it wasn't an RPG. But how can you claim the moral high ground, when you're not even willing to take the larger situation into consideration?

It's just amazing how hysterical some people on here, and on youtube, are getting. When I first watched this video, judging from people's reactions, I honestly expected to see some blatantly out of control pilots. ...And yet that engagement was properly executed, albeit with an unfortunate outcome.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
Look, I understand the need to make decisions under pressure, but IMHO, it was unacceptable.

Quite honestly, I don't think you do. And as evidence for that, all I need to do is point towards your snide remarks.

It's certainly not like these guys were flying down the route, saw the group and wildly engaged them. Anyone who thinks that, is intellectually dishonest. The AH-64 - Crazy Horse 18 - arrived on station due to the request of the on-scene ground element - Hotel Platoon - who was reporting SAF in the direction of that courtyard. Those individuals were observed at that location, with weapons. Crazy Horse 18 received proper clearance, and engaged as cleanly as one can do with 30mikemike.

If you're going to properly judge these men, at least have the willingness to properly understand the situation, and rules.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 8:57 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 26):
It's just amazing how hysterical some people on here, and on youtube, are getting. When I first watched this video, judging from people's reactions, I honestly expected to see some blatantly out of control pilots. ...And yet that engagement was properly executed, albeit with an unfortunate outcome.

c'mon let us shoot...that's the quote from one of the pilots who wanted to shoot up the van, a van that the same pilot said is "picking up the wounded'...sounds like someone was eager to shoot.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:11 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 17):
So the US Army is okay with attacking people providing medical assistance to the wounded?

There are rules and guidelines that dictate what constitutes medical care - and thus protected individuals on the battlefield. Using everyone's favorite Geneva Convention, extraction of wounded personnel by unmarked other personnel/vehicles does not afford them exemption status.

In both Iraq and Afghanistan, insurgents typically make an effort to extract their wounded in order to prevent them from being questioned/interrogated by Coalition forces. And in some cases, if they cannot be extracted, they are shot, to prevent them from revealing the locations of safe houses, cell leaders, weapons caches, etc.

The vehicle was not a medical vehicle, and gave every appearance of doing exactly what I outlined above. The crew was not prohibited from engaging that vehicle, by the ROE.

I still stand by what I've said all along, there was no negligent or malicious actions on the behalf of the crew. It was all properly executed, but even when every step is followed, there is no guarantee that it will be a clean engagement. Those reporters were with the wrong group, in the wrong location. And that girl simply had an idiot for a father.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 27):
c'mon let us shoot...that's the quote from one of the pilots who wanted to shoot up the van, a van that the same pilot said is "picking up the wounded'...sounds like someone was eager to shoot.

Well if that is grounds for indictment of war crimes, well throw me in the cell along side of them, because there have been plenty of times I was eager to bring the fight.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:21 pm

Quoting casInterest (Reply 25):

This video doesn't change anything other than to give it context.
The gunner did his job. And he made it in the heat of engagement.
I can't speak for his feelings on the issue, but I would imagine he felt bad about this, but he still had no other choice in the split decision he had to make.

Heat of engagement? Are you nuts? They were a few thousand feet in the air probably a mile away and the so called "insurgents" didn't even know they were there. You call that "heat of engagement". I call it the willingness of U.S. soldiers to shoot and kill ANY Iraqis based on revenge for their fallen friends, rather than actually trying to win a war. But according to UH60, the "proper" rules were followed, so no harm no foul.  
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
whappeh
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:21 pm

cliffs:
1. group of guys walking casually around Iraqi streets spotted by Apache. 2 clearly have AK47s and 2 have cameras that look like guns or RPGs or something weird
2. Apache asks for permission to engage
3. Idiot Reuters cameraman sneakily peaks camera around the corner of a building pointed directly at helicopter - crew mistakes it for RPG
4. Apache kills everyone
5. Bunch of unarmed Iraqis come soon after the fight in a van and start trying to haul away bodies
6. Apache lights up Van
7. Apparently there was a kid in the van.
8. US Gov't covers it up
9. Wikileaks gets video
10. Reddit goes nuts.
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
lewis
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:27 pm

Quoting casInterest (Reply 25):
but I would imagine he felt bad about this, but he still had no other choice in the split decision he had to make.

He sure sounds trigger happy. Whether they were right or wrong to engage the first time I don't know, what really bothers me is that the shooter seems to be having a lot of fun doing this.

Quote: "Come on, let us shoot!"

Quoting casInterest (Reply 21):

When did God give you the omipotent power of 20/20 foresight?

In the video I saw, there was a van stopping, people getting out and carrying a wounded civilian, you know, one from the group that was not carrying a weapon. The poor guy (journalist) was probably calling for help. Why start shooting like that? Oh wait, they are reporting that the people from the van are picking up bodies and weapons, not even close to an accurate description of what is happening. I can't blame the others for giving orders to shoot based on such inaccurate information.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:30 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 29):
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 30):

What exactly did you expect the pilots' to do? Touch down, walk over, ask if they could check out the suspect equipment, and if it was indeed an RPG, have them casually walk back to the chopper and fly back to their original position before engaging?

This is some serious monday morning quarterbacking, you have all the undisputed facts at your disposal, and have all the time in the world to go through that video, rewinding and freezing frames as necessary. The pilots in question did not have that.

It's just a shame the Army tried to cover it up, since things like this have a habit of becoming quite a bit more explosive if uncovered by others.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:35 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 29):
You can't just see someone walking on the ground with something that you think is a weapon but could in reality be anything and fire on them. If you are worried about these people then you have to send ground troops to see whether they have weapons or not. They shouldn't just kill 15 people because they "think" they are holding weapons.

Again, I think people - including you - need to first step back, calm down, and understand the whole lead-up to this video. There is no reason to get unhinged and start throwing wild accusations around, especially when they're based on an inadequate understanding of what's happening.

As I explained earlier, the two Crazy Horse elements arrived on station due to the request of Hotel platoon, relayed via their higher, Bushmaster. They had received SAF from the direction of that courtyard, and requested aerial reconnaissance. Crazy Horse arrived on station, reported the presence of the 8 individuals... and that they had weapons.

(When I first watched it, I identified 3 AKs and 1 RPG. After rewatching it 2 times, I still clearly see the AKs, but the RPG is definitely a large photo lens camera.)

They reported what they saw, requested permission to engage from the appropriate authority, received the go-ahead, and engaged. They followed the ROE and engaged with short controlled bursts. They did not fire on the wounded individual. They engaged the vehicle that was attempting to extract him, and there was no possible way to know there was child in the van. (As explained earlier, insurgents often attempted to extract their guys to prevent them from being questioned, and giving up sensitive information. Under the ROE and Geneva Convention, that vehicle was not a desginated medical vehicle, willingly entered the engagement zone, and was thus fair game).

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 29):
Does anyone need to be fired upon at all or does there actually need to be any proof at all that there is anything illicit going on

Well obviously it depends for different scenarios. But more often than not, the ROE stipulated that you needed to be fired at, in order to fire back. For this incident, that event occurred when then ground element received SAF from the direction of the courtyard. So that allows the ground commander to utilize the aerial asset as an extension of his own force. He can authorize the engagement, even though the aerial platform was not directly fired upon.

[Edited 2010-04-05 14:39:06]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:36 pm

Sorry, I guess I should make it known that SAF = small arms fire, and ROE = rules of engagement
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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keesje
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:11 pm

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):
So people with AK-47s and an RPG are shot at by a US helicopter that was protecting a column of Humvees? And then a van with no markings whatsoever to denote it was an emergency vehicle tries to help them.....

Given the state of Iraq in 2007 I don't blame the US soldiers for being worried for their safety. It's easy for all your armchair quarterbacks to second guess American soldiers, but it's not your life on the line. It's theirs.

They were unarmed.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
The Pentagon has decided a website that allows the public to leak sensitive information is a threat to national security after it posted a string of US army intelligence secrets.

Kill the messenger.

War is cruel and yes our guys kill innocent people too. Unfortunately it's events like these and the reactions and denials that inspire moderate intelligent Arabs to draw a line in the sand & pick up arms to "set things straight". Often family members defending family honour..

I think the basic problem is ofen the cultural differences leading to a total disrespects for the other guys and the feeling you have the "right to defend yourself" and the wildly broad interpretations you can give that thousands of miles away from your safe home, shooting at unclear people that don't shoot back.

And no, of course this is not an isolated incident, wake up.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AGM100
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 33):
It's just a shame the Army tried to cover it up, since things like this have a habit of becoming quite a bit more explosive if uncovered by others.

I guess ,,, but the enemy uses these scenarios as psyops against us...so in some way it is better not to respond and try to explain what happened.

Case in point .....

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
In other words - the van driver was a Good Samaritan. Showing absolutely no signs that he was going to engage the US forces. And they still killed him. Nice job, that.

I will say it for 10,000th time ... US Forces do not target civilians ... that is the tactic of the other side . Victory for us is a peaceul stable Iraq ... victory for the bad guys is death , destruction and terror of the civilian population.

DOD should never release gun footage like this ... it is a military tool ..not for civilian use. Save for a very few ...can any of us understand what happened here in context ? No .

For me ... Im glad none of our guys got hurt... that is how I feel. Imagine if dismounted troops from "Bushmaster 4" had walked around the corner and jumped these guys ... they would have been fired on immediatly and probably hurt or killed. That is why we pay for Apaches .... and that is how they should be used.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:29 pm

Just to make it perfectly clear - just because the AH-64 was not fired upon directly, is irrelevant. In this role, he was acting as an extension of the ground element... who had come under direct fire, thus by this event he was cleared to engage without having been fired at.

Just as the artilleryman in the FOB, 10clicks away, does not need to come under direct fire in order to provide artillery support to the troops beyond the wire. When the ground element comes under fire, the supporting elements can seek permission to engage to help neutralize the threat. That is the case, here.

Quoting keesje (Reply 36):
They were unarmed.

The two journalists, yes. But the AAR report noted that the ground element recovered several AK-47s from the scene. How many "several" are, is not made clear, but I counted at least 3.

-----------------------------------------------------

Look, in these cases, all we have to go by is rules and procedures. We take classes all the time, teaching us ROE, and how to properly apply them. That's why I don't think it's particularly fair for someone with no knowledge or experience, to interject their opinion, and claim it to be supreme. This stuff is complicated and not always crystal clear.

If these guys had acted wildly, or without respect for the set procedures, I would not be here defending them. But they followed the ROE, they applied them appropriately, and they did nothing negligent. There is simply no way you will ever make war a cut&dry, clean affair.

No one here has yet to provide any evidence these guys violated the ROE, or circumvented standard operating procedure. Using 20/20 knowledge is all well and great, but that camera looked like an RPG, and that guy was crouched exactly like someone about to fire an RPG. I'm sorry he chose to be in a hot area, with guys holding guns... because those decisions cost him his life.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:40 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 38):
The two journalists, yes. But the AAR report noted that the ground element recovered several AK-47s from the scene. How many "several" are, is not made clear, but I counted at least 3.

How very convenient. The military already covered this story up. You expect me to believe that they recovered weapons from the scene? You're funny man.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
eaa3
Posts: 945
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:52 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 34):


They reported what they saw, requested permission to engage from the appropriate authority, received the go-ahead, and engaged. They followed the ROE and engaged with short controlled bursts. They did not fire on the wounded individual. They engaged the vehicle that was attempting to extract him, and there was no possible way to know there was child in the van. (As explained earlier, insurgents often attempted to extract their guys to prevent them from being questioned, and giving up sensitive information. Under the ROE and Geneva Convention, that vehicle was not a desginated medical vehicle, willingly entered the engagement zone, and was thus fair game).

But why would you ever fire on someone trying to help a wounded person out.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 34):
(When I first watched it, I identified 3 AKs and 1 RPG. After rewatching it 2 times, I still clearly see the AKs, but the RPG is definitely a large photo lens camera.)
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 38):

The two journalists, yes. But the AAR report noted that the ground element recovered several AK-47s from the scene. How many "several" are, is not made clear, but I counted at least 3.

YOU WEREN'T THERE. If these were indeed weapons then the US military has documentation of that as they arrived on scene 8 minutes after and if there were weapons then they would be able to find them and prove their case. The fact that they have not done that does not point to you being correct. As a matter of fact the fact that you claim to be able to see a gun from that grainy video basically is just a testiment to your own prejudice. You can't see what they are holding and neither could the pilots. In a situation like this, where there is no real danger to anyone, it is criminal to do what was done.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:01 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 40):
In a situation like this, where there is no real danger to anyone, it is criminal to do what was done.

Excuse me, but what the fuck are you babbling on about?

This video wasn't shot in downtown Smalltown, USA. Baghdad, Iraq in July 2007 was not a cozy place to be. Troops on the ground had encountered gunfire, and chopper crew mistakenly identified an RPG. How on earth is that equal to 'no real danger to anyone'?
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:05 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 41):

Excuse me, but what the f**k are you babbling on about?

This video wasn't shot in downtown Smalltown, USA. Baghdad, Iraq in July 2007 was not a cozy place to be. Troops on the ground had encountered gunfire, and chopper crew mistakenly identified an RPG. How on earth is that equal to 'no real danger to anyone'?

There were no troops there (i.e. close by) and the helicopter was a mile away. This is just pathetic. They were not a threat to anyone. If they thought there was something going on then they have to have someone on the ground to confirm it. They should have sent troops to check this out.

You may want to edit your post so that the admins don't delete it.

15 innocent people were arbitrarily killed. Why is that not a big deal for you.

[Edited 2010-04-05 16:07:12]
 
drgreen757
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:50 am

RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:22 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 37):
I will say it for 10,000th time ... US Forces do not target civilians ... that is the tactic of the other side . Victory for us is a peaceul stable Iraq ... victory for the bad guys is death , destruction and terror of the civilian population.

DOD should never release gun footage like this ... it is a military tool ..not for civilian use. Save for a very few ...can any of us understand what happened here in context ? No .

For me ... Im glad none of our guys got hurt... that is how I feel. Imagine if dismounted troops from "Bushmaster 4" had walked around the corner and jumped these guys ... they would have been fired on immediatly and probably hurt or killed. That is why we pay for Apaches .... and that is how they should be used.

And that's all I feel that needs to be said.
Save the grey ghosts.
 
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KPDX
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:25 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 29):
No it was a family father trying to help a person that had been shot. End of story.

Tell me. If you lived in a brutal war-zone, and had kids in the back of your car, and came upon a large amount of freshly dead, bullet-riddled bodies, would you stop and get out and help an injured adult with your young kids in the back?

[Edited 2010-04-05 16:26:59]
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:01 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 1):
Very sad and horrendous.... but what good does it do to post it here? This thread is going to turn into a real shitstorm...real fast.

You were obviously right, sir! I'm afraid this thread serves no useful purpose...

I will say that in war rules we take for granted do not apply any more. Which is why I don't think we should start wars on a whim (and the fault of the US government is definitely visible here). However, given the state of war in Iraq, the action itself, while certainly reprehensible ethically upon reflection, was the proper course of action, without necessary information. It would have been so no matter the nationality of the soldiers and victims.

A shame it happened...
 
NW747400
Posts: 322
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:30 am

I just wonder if any of those that criticize these men have every actually been in a war zone. I know UHF has so I'm inclined to trust his opinion and not a bunch of cowardly monday morning quaterbacks.
NW747400
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:47 am

I'll be making a donation to Wikileaks. I've read some other good things about them. They seem like an intrepid organization.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:33 am

Hate the ROE, not the pilots. They were just doing their jobs according to ROE
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:07 am

Obviously none of you understand the reason why certain information is disseminated on a need-to-know basis. Nobody here is qualified, or is privy to all the available information, to pass judgment on the personnel involved in this particular incident. That being said, since the DOD explanation isn't adding up, there should be an inquiry into this. Until then, those of you on a witch hunt aren't accomplishing anything by playing armchair generals. There is a reason why the JAG's office exists, and they are the only qualified people that can lay the blame in this case.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 43):

Obviously they would get the hell out of there and call the proper authorities.

[Edited 2010-04-05 21:10:32]
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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mayor
Posts: 6218
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:54 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
our cowardice military

I'm thinking that it might be a good idea for you to retract this statement.




You can probably chalk this incident up to a "fog of war" scenario.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen

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