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QANTAS077
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:20 pm

Quoting kevinl1011 (Reply 74):
Step back from your internet connection and see that the rest of the world is living in fear of terrorism.

bwahahahaha...biggest bunch of horsecrap ever posted in this forum!

I'd never have caught a train, plane or boat in the past 10 years if that was the case...my only fear is not being able to provide for those I care about.

[Edited 2010-04-06 12:28:05]
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 99):
I would never thought I would see the day I would agree with Monty.

worst thing about this video is that it should never have seen the light of day, just puts more troops and more innocent civilians in harms way...but it should never have been hushed up either, its a difficult situation and I can understand the ramifications and why it shouldn't be aired, but for the shooting up of the van there needs to be some kind of enquiry and punishment handed down.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:38 pm

The idiocy here is stunning. Some of you people need to get a clue.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
iliribdl
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:42 pm

So can those soldiers doing the killing of civilians (reporters) be put up in jail for this or does having the status of 'solider' protect them?

And I'm sure this is one of the many times this has happened, not just in Iraq (other countries as well), where civilians are killed for no damn reason.  
delta.com
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:43 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 99):
I would never thought I would see the day I would agree with Monty. After watching the video twice and listening to all that was said the initial engagment could probably pass muster though I feel they weren't in danger but firing on the good samartin was a complete disgrace and really makes me embarrassed. You have just unleased hell and shot the hell out of the place. A person with no weapon is carrying a dying man into a van. Why in the name of God do you have to fire? Your in no danger whatsoever. Also listening to the demeanor and words of the people involved also points to the fact they were looking for a reason to kill someone which is also a total disgrace. I am one of the biggest supporters of our military but we are there to protect people's freedom and fight the bad guys. Not just fire at targets first and ask questions later. I am sorry but nothing can explain this away. We were wrong.

   Never thought I'd see the day when I agree with you. Their demeaner reminds me of when i'm playing Call of Duty Modern warfare online. It seems as though their objective is gain as many kills as possible, treating it as though it's a video game.

The worst part is, those who are vehemently defending the actions of the two pilots don't realize how much this hurts our troops as well as coalition partners. Al Jazeera gets this video, and plays it over and over again on their news cast, Muslim extremists put it up on their websites, and the entire Muslim world sees how "evil" Americans are. This video can be spun very negatively and unfortunately, it doesn't take much to see the negative aspects of it. The next thing you know, moderate Muslims who don't know which side to trust, look at this video and it shows that the Americans are persecuting their people. hmmm    I wonder what side they'll choose to support?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 97):

...You keep acting like there were not AKs, why??? I mean... even Reuters has reported it. The Iraqi witness said that then men were carrying guns, "but that they were slung on their shoulders." And several AKs were recovered after the engagement. Why are you not bothering to get educated?

What Iraqi witnesses? You mean the two kids who were shot up because their father tried to help a wounded man? Far as I can tell, they killed all the witnesses. The only other witnesses there are U.S. soldiers, which is about as reliable as asking a piece of rock if it saw the shooting.

It never ceases to amaze me when people sit back and get's spoon-fed these garbage reports released by the Pentagon.

[Edited 2010-04-06 12:51:48]
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:47 pm

Quoting iliribdl (Reply 104):
So can those soldiers doing the killing of civilians (reporters) be put up in jail for this or does having the status of 'solider' protect them?

And I'm sure this is one of the many times this has happened, not just in Iraq (other countries as well), where civilians are killed for no damn reason.

Unfortunately no. The pentagon has decided since "ROE" (rules of engagement) was followed, there's no point in investigating the matter further. I guess, under these "ROE", any Apache or Cobra pilot can go around looking for Muslims who are walking with a shovel or a tiller, mistake it for an AK-47 or an RPG, shoot and kill them, and everything will be hunky dory because they followed the "ROE".  
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:54 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 76):
The trurth is that acts like these create terrorists. Supporting Israel unconditionally creates terrorists and makes the US less safe. You are simply not protecting America from terrorists by killing a dozen innocent people and then not being at least humble about it.
Quoting Acheron (Reply 80):
Or are you so self-centered to think that the only victims of terrorism out there are the americans?
And last time I checked, Iraqis didn't have anything to do with 9/11.

Thanks eea3 and Acheron there is still sanity

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 84):
....Ignoring those anetters who can only base their arguments on irrational emotional hysteria... please, someone make a calm and rational argument of where the ROE and procedures were violated. If that cannot be proven, then it seems to me that people are barking up the wrong tree.

The action seems at best doubtful and I have yet to work out your explanation of why the van was blasted to kingdom come. I would have thought the ROE that eea3 cited would have prevented that set of acts. If you argue not, then the ROEs need to be changed so that a bunch of folk who were not a danger were not blasted from this earth.

No I wont step back from my internet. This war is supposed to be being fought to benefit us. As eea3 ably points out, fighting it like that makes the problem worse not better.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 101):
Quoting kevinl1011 (Reply 74):
Step back from your internet connection and see that the rest of the world is living in fear of terrorism.

bwahahahaha...biggest bunch of horsecrap ever posted in this forum!

I'd never have caught a train, plane or boat in the past 10 years if that was the case...my only fear is not being able to provide for those I care about.

The only thing I can add is that it all compares very poorly with the record of Detachment 88 in Indonesia and its near demolition of Jemaah Islamiyah. But they are police.

Footnote: recent bombs in Iraq suggest that the poor bloody Iraqis have been left with a far bigger problem than they started wtih.

The real revelations will come when the story of the failure to remove Saddam by political means is revealed. Then there might have been sweets and flowers although the Shia were always going to fight the Sunni in a post Saddam Iraq.
 
AGM100
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:21 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 99):
We were wrong.

In your opinion NIK .... and speaking on a emotional level I agree its a horrible situation for our troops to be in. But , the enemy chose to fight a irregular battle with us ... and this is what happens . Honestly I am sorry for the pilots .... I know a few of them and they do not like having to kill people like this. They would prefer uniformed regular troops and armour over this shit . But that is the cost of "guerrilla " warfare and we put our guys in the worst possible situation.

Quoting iliribdl (Reply 104):
So can those soldiers doing the killing of civilians (reporters) be put up in jail for this or does having the status of 'solider' protect them?

Yes ... if thier Superior's deem that it was a intentional act of targeting civilians then they can be brought up on charges. Problem is that these "civilians" were carrying AK-47's peering around corners ... and our troops were being fired at from the area. Case dismissed IMO. But then again ... the current administration is charging Navy Seals for giveing a terrorist a bloody lip ...so we will see.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:24 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 108):
Problem is that these "civilians" were carrying AK-47's peering around corners

Correction:Problem is that these "civilians" were carrying cameras peering around corners
 
NIKV69
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:52 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 108):
In your opinion NIK .... and speaking on a emotional level I agree its a horrible situation for our troops to be in. But , the enemy chose to fight a irregular battle with us ... and this is what happens . Honestly I am sorry for the pilots .... I know a few of them and they do not like having to kill people like this. They would prefer uniformed regular troops and armour over this shit . But that is the cost of "guerrilla " warfare and we put our guys in the worst possible situation

Oh Bullshit, that was totally a disgrace. What enemy was that guy in the van? You kidding? I gave them a pass on the initial engagement. Those guys had guns that guy with the camera poking his head around the corner probably wasn't doing the smartest thing. Once the smoke clears and you have destroyed everything it's time to cease fire and wait for ground forces. They went after that van for no reason and if your telling me they couldn't decipher between a threat and some civilian trying to save a guys life he found lying in the street then they don't deserve to wear a uniform and you can tell them I said that. You also have no idea what "guerilla warwfare" means. It doesn't mean civilians disguising themelves as the enemy. Give me a break. This was disgusting.
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BMI727
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:01 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
This is going to sound callous, but I don't really care all that much: so what's the big deal, here?

Exactly it is a war. During a war, innocent people suffer. People do all they can to avoid it but it is a fact: there is no war without suffering.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 17):
So the US Army is okay with attacking people providing medical assistance to the wounded?

No but we can't sit here and armchair QB this or any other engagement. Accidents happen, and during a war there is always too much danger and not enough information.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 19):
Do you not realize that those were civilians WITHOUT weapons who were murdered?

Actually, it would probably be manslaughter, since there was no intent.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
You don't just dismiss 15 civilian deaths as "It happens". That's unacceptable.

Not during a war. This is a sad incident, but it would also be a sad incident if the Army threw the book at these guys (for what appears to be an honest mistake) and the next guy remembers it, doesn't shoot, and gets blown away.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:40 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 105):
What Iraqi witnesses?

Are you freakin' kidding? I'm just amazed that both you and EEA3 are too lazy to go out and actually educate yourselves. If you distrust the DoD reports, that's perfectly well and good. But at least read the official reports by Reuters, or by other nongovernment sources, that remark that some of the men in the group had AK47s. How can you expect us to take you seriously, if you're not even on the same page as reality?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 107):
The action seems at best doubtful and I have yet to work out your explanation of why the van was blasted to kingdom come. I would have thought the ROE that eea3 cited would have prevented that set of acts.

Well unfortunately, as I explained earlier: the ROE he cited (or more appropriately, the author of the article cited the ROE, EEA3 was quoting him), was valid for ground engagement, not aerial engagements. There were/are differences.

As for engaging the the van... well the technical answer you seek is beyond the ROE, and in the Geneva Convention rules regarding medical personnel, and medical evacuation for the battlefield. If you want me to provide quotes, I will, but for the sake of brevity I'll leave it up too you.

...But basically as I explained earlier: frequently the insurgents would attempt to extract their wounded from the battlefield, to prevent them from revealing highly sensitive information to US forces. They would also collect weapons, and if they could not extract the wounded, sometimes they would shoot them to silence them. The G.Convention spells out what constitutes medical personnel, and medical evacuation vehicles. Simply pulling a wounded person off the battlefield does not make you, or your vehicle exempt.

Like I said earlier, if I am shot on the battlefield, and I am loaded into a M2 Bradley... that Bradley does not then assume a protected status on the battlefield, nor do the soldiers carrying me to that Bradley become protected. Does that make any sense? I can try and explain it further, if it's confusing.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 107):
If you argue not, then the ROEs need to be changed so that a bunch of folk who were not a danger were not blasted from this earth.

By all means, change the ROE and procedures. But the way they read in 2007, this was legal and proper. **shrugs** We can all make up our own minds as to whether they were just, but that crew followed them as they read, and they're not "war criminals."

Quoting Baroque (Reply 107):
No I wont step back from my internet.

Ummm...I don't think I ever said you should, where did I say that???
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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OA260
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:47 pm

Sad to see such war crimes were carried out and the USA must pay the price in the International criminal courts if they commit war crimes.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:50 pm

Quoting oa260 (Reply 113):
Sad to see such war crimes were carried out and the USA must pay the price in the International criminal courts if they commit war crimes.

Why bother putting them on trial when the a.net legal/military/warcrimes experts have already proven guilt....
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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OA260
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:57 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 114):
Why bother putting them on trial when the a.net legal/military/warcrimes experts have already proven guilt....

I think the news report I saw sumed it up well. ''American troops who think they are playing an Xbox war game''. Just listening to the comments and laughing made me sick !! Maybe its acceptable in American society I dont know.
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:09 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 105):
Their demeaner reminds me of when i'm playing Call of Duty Modern warfare online. It seems as though their objective is gain as many kills as possible, treating it as though it's a video game.

Well, this explains alot. I'm thinking this is where you gain all your "expertise" in battlefield tactics and warfare. Poor substitute for actually being in combat, I think.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:19 pm

Quoting oa260 (Reply 115):
I think the news report I saw sumed it up well. ''American troops who think they are playing an Xbox war game''.

You think that summed it up.... well?   
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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OA260
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:24 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 117):
You think that summed it up.... well?   

Yep we have seen it all before all the way back to Iran Air flight 655
 
Airport
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:28 pm

I am another one of the many "college students living comfortably in the dorm", so take what I say simply for what it's worth.

I don't feel like I'm in the position of commenting whether it's the pilot's fault or who's fault it is. There are too many unknowns. We don't know the past experiences of the pilot that lead him to decide to shoot. We don't know the past experiences of the family that lead them to help the wounded. We don't know all the true motives, and we certainly weren't there.

So, I just feel it's futile to comment on who's to blame for the tragic deaths.

That being said, I wish more Americans could actually get easy access and would actually watch raw footage of stuff like this happening. I don't feel very many of us seem to appreciate the gravity of war, sans the men who serve in it. But, I guess I understand why we don't. It's too depressing. But I think it would be better if we were enlightened and depressed versus ignorant of what happens 8,000 miles away. Why? Because we vote. We shape what we do, by electing our leaders who decide it. Go to war with this country, invade that country. To us, events like these are nothing more than a tuned-out news headline. Maybe we need something graphic. Something brutal. Something to shake us out of our ignorance, so more Americans who rather blindly sit back in their dorms, or apartments or homes tuning out the news can wake up and realize what war is all about.

Just my two cents, take it for what it's worth.

Cheers!
Anthony/Airport
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:40 pm

Quoting Airport (Reply 119):

Anthony, thanks for that well thought-out, sensible post.

Personally, I wish more Americans had a better understanding of what goes on in theater. Just judging from a few who posted here, it's obvious that many people are blissfully unaware of the raw brutality that occurs on a daily basis. As I said in the beginning, the fact that this video has caused such an uproar was initially very surprising to me... since I have seen so much worse. Whether it's our own gun camera videos, or insurgents' IED videos... it's amazing that so many people act so shocked, as though they are just waking up to how brutal the ongoing wars are.

But thanks again for probably one of the best posts, thus far.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:52 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 112):
Like I said earlier, if I am shot on the battlefield, and I am loaded into a M2 Bradley... that Bradley does not then assume a protected status on the battlefield, nor do the soldiers carrying me to that Bradley become protected. Does that make any sense? I can try and explain it further, if it's confusing.

No but the enemy wouldn´t fire at a Bradley becauase it is doing a medial extraction. It would fire at it because it was a Bradley. Again why would you shoot at someone trying to extract the wounded. A regular minivan. It´s just plain wrong.

Quoting Airport (Reply 119):


That being said, I wish more Americans could actually get easy access and would actually watch raw footage of stuff like this happening. I don't feel very many of us seem to appreciate the gravity of war, sans the men who serve in it. But, I guess I understand why we don't. It's too depressing. But I think it would be better if we were enlightened and depressed versus ignorant of what happens 8,000 miles away. Why? Because we vote. We shape what we do, by electing our leaders who decide it. Go to war with this country, invade that country. To us, events like these are nothing more than a tuned-out news headline. Maybe we need something graphic. Something brutal. Something to shake us out of our ignorance, so more Americans who rather blindly sit back in their dorms, or apartments or homes tuning out the news can wake up and realize what war is all about.

I absolutely aggree. Those who supported the Iraq war should have to watch uncensored war videos like this. If your going to support war then you shouldn´t be shielded from the reality of it. It´s kind of like smokers in many places. If your gonna smoke then you will be required to have a black cancer infected lung on the box. This may be unreasonable but I nonetheless think people are way to shielded from the realities of war and hence their decisions to support war.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:13 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 121):
A regular minivan.

It's rather ironic that you're advocating that Americans need to become educated on what goes on over there... yet in the same breath you manage to show you're own massive lack of education.   

I encourage you to learn what a Bongo truck is. Some have utility beds, some have passenger cabins, some have both. But I think if you take your own advice, and bother to read-up and take notice... you'll see that the Bongo truck is insurgents war chariot... it's their "Bradley". Hell you don't even need to the library, you can stay in your dorm room... just youtube videos of Bongo trucks laying IEDs, or staging hasty ambushes, etc. Point being, you cannot exempt all bongos, because their ubiquitous use on the battlefield as the insurgents ride-of-choice.

Although, regardless of whether you chose to stop being ignorant of what's going on over there, bongo truck or not: it was not a marked medical vehicle. Are you suggesting that we do not apply the rules of the Geneva Convention?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:14 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 112):
Like I said earlier, if I am shot on the battlefield, and I am loaded into a M2 Bradley... that Bradley does not then assume a protected status on the battlefield, nor do the soldiers carrying me to that Bradley become protected. Does that make any sense? I can try and explain it further, if it's confusing.

The analogy doesn't quite work, though. You are a soldier wearing a uniform, and hence a clearly identifiable target to an enemy force. The same goes for the soldiers that would be extracting you via the Bradley, and the Bradley itself - they are all military targets. If the wounded individuals and their rescuers had been positively identified as insurgents - fine, engage them. But they weren't insurgents, they were civilians, and hence not legitimate targets. And because the Apache pilots failed to exercise due diligence in properly identifying their targets, they are at fault for the attack. I probably wouldn't call it murder, but it's certainly negligent homicide.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111):
This is a sad incident, but it would also be a sad incident if the Army threw the book at these guys (for what appears to be an honest mistake) and the next guy remembers it, doesn't shoot, and gets blown away.

That's the cost of being the "good guys" in a war - you've got to be willing to accept that extra bit of risk to ensure that you do things properly. Plus, we need to remember that soldiers willingly accept this risk by virtue of joining the armed forces. The death of an Iraqi innocent and an American soldier are both tragic, but at least the soldier chose his course of action knowing about the risks involved.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
AGM100
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:21 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 110):
What enemy was that guy in the van? You kidding?

NIK ...If the dudes carrying guns were the enemy .... and a van comes up in support dont you think that they are somehow connected ? The enemy there operates just like that .,..unconventionaly. They drive vans and they look like civs.

In this war collecting the dead is important..... its about intelligence gathering and it is key to success . We need to know who we killed.

Now... I will say I wish the guys handeled the commentary a little less exuberantly .... but its a stressful situation and not my place to call that shot. And you are right its a fucking horrible situation and a look into modern abstract warfare ...not pretty.

So what do you say ? Charge them with crimes ?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:01 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 123):
The analogy doesn't quite work, though. You are a soldier wearing a uniform, and hence a clearly identifiable target to an enemy force. The same goes for the soldiers that would be extracting you via the Bradley, and the Bradley itself - they are all military targets.

Well that would be all well and good, if those pesky insurgents would help us out and start wearing uniforms, and identifying themselves as combatants. I really hope we see that.

But until they stop dressing like COBs (civilians on the battlefield), my argument certainly works. They just make it much harder for us to identify them. Not to mention being in the location of reported SAF, having numerous AK47s, and using a camera just like they use RPGs, certainly did not help.

Unfortunately I can't take my uniform off and try and blend with COBs, it's prohibited by the Geneva Convention. Perhaps you're saying we should scrap the use of the convention in theaters such as Iraq and Afghanistan?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Stratofish
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:06 am

Phew, took a long time to watch the video(s) and then read most of what's been posted here.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 84):
No one has given any evidence that the ROE in place were violated, or that the crew broke standard operating procedure.

IF that's the case then the ROE must be changed!
I think it shall be the ground element's duty to verify that they actually ARE being attacked and have that verified by at least one other ground element (which could also assist in locating it), before air assistance of that magnitude can be called in. Could be one possible way to prevent such tragedies.

"Bushmaster" and the PIC did a poor job (to say the least) and they (along with everyone senior involved) shall be tried for murder in a US mlitary court! Did "Bushmaster" actually say anything factual? There was only one hostile element present at the scene, and we know who it was.

The rest of the (VERY trigger happy) aircrew should face dishonorable discharge, if not for violating ROEs then for their misconduct. The "it was 2007" is no excuse, neither for their actions and even less for their behavior and foul language.

I really do hope the this tragic event (or it becoming public) will lead to a change in the ROE.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
Honestly, I've engaged on less

I will just try and ignore that... uhm I know, I failed to do so.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:06 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 125):
But until they stop dressing like COBs (civilians on the battlefield), my argument certainly works. They just make it much harder for us to identify them. Not to mention being in the location of reported SAF, having numerous AK47s, and using a camera just like they use RPGs, certainly did not help.

Correction: using a camera like they use a camera, certainly didn´t help.

The fact that insurgents don´t wear uniforms doesn´t excuse attacks on civilians.
 
ual777
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:49 am

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 126):


"Bushmaster" and the PIC did a poor job (to say the least) and they (along with everyone senior involved) shall be tried for murder in a US mlitary court! Did "Bushmaster" actually say anything factual? There was only one hostile element present at the scene, and we know who it was.

The rest of the (VERY trigger happy) aircrew should face dishonorable discharge, if not for violating ROEs then for their misconduct. The "it was 2007" is no excuse, neither for their actions and even less for their behavior and foul language.

Oh get real. Its so easy to sit in your computer chair and play "Monday Morning Quarterback". Tried for murder? For what? Its a war zone and newsflash, the enemy is trying to kill you.

I spent time in the Corps and I had two friends killed in Iraq. I have also heard stories of our wounded being decapitated next to their vehicles. Funny how Wikileaks can't find something about that can they?

This wasn't murder nor should anyone face a dishonorable discharge. The guys were clearly walking around with AK-47s in a group. Standard Sunday stroll? I think not.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:14 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111):
Not during a war. This is a sad incident, but it would also be a sad incident if the Army threw the book at these guys (for what appears to be an honest mistake) and the next guy remembers it, doesn't shoot, and gets blown away.

No. Not enough. In WW2, if we dropped a bomb on a school in a small Japanese village, that's a mistake we can live with, we weren't trying to make friends. In 2010, the war against terrorism, we CANNOT have mistakes, when we're trying to convince Muslims all over the world that we want to be their allies. Every mistake, no matter how minute, will be magnified to the highest degree. As I said, if our men and women in uniform think it's acceptable to have an "honest mistake" in battle, then the military needs some serious work.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 124):
NIK ...If the dudes carrying guns were the enemy .... and a van comes up in support dont you think that they are somehow connected ? The enemy there operates just like that .,..unconventionaly. They drive vans and they look like civs.

So I guess when a police officer shoots a suspect and an ambulance picks up the wounded person, the medics should be shot at too right?

Quoting ual777 (Reply 128):

I spent time in the Corps and I had two friends killed in Iraq. I have also heard stories of our wounded being decapitated next to their vehicles. Funny how Wikileaks can't find something about that can they?

   Cry me a river, please. We know what the enemy does, we see it all the time in the western media. I don't know about you, but I hold American soldiers to a higher standard that I hold Al Quaeda militants. We can't stoop to their level because they'll only turn around and use it againts us.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 128):

Oh get real. Its so easy to sit in your computer chair and play "Monday Morning Quarterback". Tried for murder? For what? Its a war zone and newsflash, the enemy is trying to kill you.

Will you people please stop using that damn statement. This isn't just a "war zone". This is unlike any other war that any one has ever fought in history. We are fighting a group, not a country, so it's not perfectly acceptable to kill 12 civilians and dismiss it as getting caught in the crossfire. When we invaded Iraq for their oil.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 129):
Cry me a river, please.

And what little credibility and respect you had just left.    Those people you told to cry you a river are the same people who protect your freedoms.

[Edited 2010-04-06 20:44:30]
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:43 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 112):

Well unfortunately, as I explained earlier: the ROE he cited (or more appropriately, the author of the article cited the ROE, EEA3 was quoting him), was valid for ground engagement, not aerial engagements. There were/are differences.

I won't pretend to know much about the Military Rules of Engagement. I watched the movie that starred Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L Jackson which I guess, after reading some of the posts thus far, could qualify me as an expert. In my world, there has to be a known threat to my life or the life of another in order for me to use lethal force. That being said, perhaps you can enlighten us as to what the Rules of Engagement are for aerial assaults. I won't bullshit you - I thought ROE meant ROE, regardless of whether the engagement was on the ground or from the air. So please, enlighten us.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:46 am

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 131):
I watched the movie that starred Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L Jackson which I guess, after reading some of the posts thus far, could qualify me as an expert

Don't worry. You have better qualifications than most of the more vocal posters here. They seem to be military law experts, pilots, ROE experts, not to mention they hold vast knowledge of the Geneva Convention as well as possessing US Army training.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Yellowstone
Topic Author
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:52 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 125):
Well that would be all well and good, if those pesky insurgents would help us out and start wearing uniforms, and identifying themselves as combatants. I really hope we see that.

But until they stop dressing like COBs (civilians on the battlefield), my argument certainly works. They just make it much harder for us to identify them. Not to mention being in the location of reported SAF, having numerous AK47s, and using a camera just like they use RPGs, certainly did not help.

I agree that the insurgents' violations of the rules of war make it more difficult for us to follow the rules of war. I'm sure you would agree, however, that just because the enemy wears civilian clothing does not mean that we can attack anyone wearing similar clothing. You have to use other factors to determine whether an individual is or is not an insurgent. And in an environment like Iraq, where a large portion of the populace is armed and open carry is acceptable, the mere fact that a man is armed does not establish that he is an insurgent. Nor does the fact that he is a few hundred yards from prior SAF - it's an urban warfare environment, there are probably dozens of people within that range. In fact, if I'm a civilian who hears SAF in that situation, I'm probably more likely to go grab my AK, just in case anything starts happening in which I need to protect myself.

I guess my main point is this - yes, in an environment like Iraq, it's hard to tell the enemy from the general public, and waiting for the enemy to identify themselves as such puts yourself at risk by taking away your ability to strike first. But if we want to a) convince the Iraqis that we care about their welfare and b) maintain the moral high ground, that's a risk we have to be willing to take.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:54 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 133):
You have to use other factors to determine whether an individual is or is not an insurgent.

How about being armed with AK-47's?
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Yellowstone
Topic Author
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:57 am

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 134):
How about being armed with AK-47's?

In a place like Iraq, where open carry of AKs is a fairly common occurrence?
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Flighty
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 128):
This wasn't murder nor should anyone face a dishonorable discharge. The guys were clearly walking around with AK-47s in a group. Standard Sunday stroll? I think not.

Fail. They were unarmed. By your logic we could blow anyone away just because they are "walking around."

We shouldn't even be in their country.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:33 am

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 130):

And what little credibility and respect you had just left. Those people you told to cry you a river are the same people who protect your freedoms.

I told ual777 to cry me a river. His opinion is clearly skewed because he is vengeful for what he saw, therefore, he doesn't mind whichever Iraqi is killed, as long as they're killed.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
NIKV69
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:38 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 124):
In this war collecting the dead is important..... its about intelligence gathering and it is key to success . We need to know who we killed.

We killed a civilian and his daughter who were driving by and tried to help a guy lying in the gutter. If you are going to tell me our troops can't tell the difference then I will say it again they should get out of the military.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 136):
Fail. They were unarmed.

No, some in the group had AK's you can see it in the video. I don't have an issue with the inital assault but the van is where they crossed the line.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
ACFA
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:16 am

I find it extremely disturbing that the deaths of civilians is brushed off as "shit happens". This is a crime that should be avenged. But you can't expect justice from the US military.
 
Flighty
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:32 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 138):
No, some in the group had AK's you can see it in the video.

The video shows men carrying some rather large camera equipment. (They are reporters). I don't see any guns.
 
Flighty
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:37 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 111):
Exactly it is a war. During a war, innocent people suffer. People do all they can to avoid it but it is a fact: there is no war without suffering.

It's not a war. No war has been declared and Iraq did not (still has not) attacked the United States.

Has there been an "insurgency," yes but I find that to be the wrong word. I would say "native Iraqi defense," with all due respect to US forces. General Washington was an insurgent. Iraq was defending an actual country. Neither is necessarily dishonorable.

People do all they can do avoid war? They (= we) should do much more.

[Edited 2010-04-07 00:05:03]
 
BMI727
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:00 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 141):

Bend it around all you want, but that is a war. You are right though that the only difference between freedom fighters and terrorists is persppective.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:05 am

The Reuters reporters knowingly and intentionally put them selves in dangerous situations in order to secure a story and photos. That's what they do - they knew that it was a dangerous job and decided to take the risk.

The shooting of the van was clearly a bad call in hind sight. But you also have to take into account the fact that one of the terrorists tactics is to engage the military in plain clothes, and after people are killed, gather and/or hide the weapons that were used by the deceased, so that they can then call it the "murder of innocent civilians".

Kids injured or not, would you feel the same outrage if they found a cache of weapons in the van? We obviously know now the facts of the scenario, but it could have been just as likely that the van was there to hide weapons, and make sure anyone left alive wasn’t captured to divulge information to the US military.

War is hell. If you expect anything more than that, you’re in for a grave disappointment. And for those that state that a war was never formally declared, tell that to the families of the 9/11 victims.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
NIKV69
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:07 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 141):
It's not a war. No war has been declared

So your telling me that AQ conforms to the Geneva convention? AQ plays by their own rules. They decapitate people, blow people up and fly planes into buildings. Trust me we are at war.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
MSPNWA
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:28 am

I watched some of the videos today, and it disgusted me. And sadly I wasn't surprised either. There are sadistic soldiers from any nation all over the world. The initial engagement was bad enough, even if it was a "mistake" (I don't believe it was). But then to gun down innocent civilians trying to help the wounded is so terrible that I can't put it into words. They even engaged the van while knowing that children were inside. Throw the book at these scum bags. I don't ever again want to them wearing the flag of the United States of America.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
So your telling me that AQ conforms to the Geneva convention? AQ plays by their own rules. They decapitate people, blow people up and fly planes into buildings. Trust me we are at war.

We attacked Iraq, a sovereign nation (not a group of people), without Congress declaring war. We are not at war. We are in a conflict.
 
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keesje
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:37 am

What worries me most is the language of the Apache crew. I've seen more of the video and they are hoping a wounded man laying on the ground reaches out for a gun so they can finish him of. When the children appear they laugh and say the terrorist brought children with them. When a wounded man is carried into a van they a begging for permission to open fire again. When they look over the ripped apart bodies they are proud. etc etc.

They act like monsters. What will the crew's families think if they see these videos?

Bringing me back to my believe the real problem is a total disrespect and generalization of in this case the people of Iraq. The crew clearly have the feeling they have the right to shoot everybody / can get away with everything.

I believe the men and women send out to places like Iraq in general are idealistic good people who believe they have a duty to serve their country and can help improve a situation somewhere in the world for the local folks. They are not out to slaughter innocent / barely guilty (being in the neighbourhood of a weapon) people. Somehow the system, situation, doctrine, tasks can turn folks like you and me into mercyless killers. It's the press / politics that has to prevent wars like these. Both lack IMO, they stand firm behind the flag & stop looking / thinking / telling the truth until 10 yrs after.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Flighty
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:38 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 144):
AQ plays by their own rules. They decapitate people, blow people up and fly planes into buildings.

Yes, and Germany did a lot of bad things in WWII. Neither was Iraq's fault

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 143):
And for those that state that a war was never formally declared, tell that to the families of the 9/11 victims.

And... what does 9/11 have to do with this?

Quoting keesje (Reply 146):
What worries me most is the language of the Apache crew

It is pretty clear that they were in "killer" mode. There's no reasoning with battle fogged killers. Not having been a soldier I don't know from experience. But from observation it is normal for poorly managed soldiers to revert to killer mode, meaning, killing civilians. It is something we assign to "monsters" but it's actually predictable.

Lord of the Flies comes up pretty fast. The veneer of civilization is thin. That is ok in a genuine hot war. Iraq was hardly ever that. Considering our entry story, our need for pulling triggers is painfully weak. IMO this limp moral background is the source of the bloggy outrage.

Given that we sent our boys in, a whole lot of killing was going to be on the menu. They are not all choirboys. I don't blame them for being killers. I blame the brass and the political operator neocons for sending our killers to Iraq without the right framework. Given what we heard in early 2003, I think the mission was to kill Iraqis who possibly looked suspicious, or were potentially conducting invisible "plotting with Al Qaeda."
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:47 am

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 134):
How about being armed with AK-47's?

Correction:How about being armed with cameras?

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 143):
War is hell. If you expect anything more than that, you’re in for a grave disappointment. And for those that state that a war was never formally declared, tell that to the families of the 9/11 victims.

Iraq was not at all involved in 9/11. It was something that the Bush administration tried to make a link between but there is none.

Why would the victims of 9/11 be happy with you and others misusing their grief and tragedy to attack a 3rd country that had nothing to do with their tragedy. They should actually be pretty pissed of that they were misused in this way.
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:39 am

Quoting Airport (Reply 119):
But I think it would be better if we were enlightened and depressed versus ignorant of what happens 8,000 miles away. Why? Because we vote. We shape what we do, by electing our leaders who decide it. Go to war with this country, invade that country. To us, events like these are nothing more than a tuned-out news headline. Maybe we need something graphic. Something brutal. Something to shake us out of our ignorance, so more Americans who rather blindly sit back in their dorms, or apartments or homes tuning out the news can wake up and realize what war is all about.

Well said.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 129):
So I guess when a police officer shoots a suspect and an ambulance picks up the wounded person, the medics should be shot at too right?

Not an unreasonable analogy, but one which I am sure will produce some fury from the shoot em up they might be carrying guns and anyways they are Iraqis group.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 133):
I guess my main point is this - yes, in an environment like Iraq, it's hard to tell the enemy from the general public, and waiting for the enemy to identify themselves as such puts yourself at risk by taking away your ability to strike first. But if we want to a) convince the Iraqis that we care about their welfare and b) maintain the moral high ground, that's a risk we have to be willing to take.

Alas a battle more or less lost back in 2003, but then again you would not expect that detail to be important bearing in mind this one:

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 148):
Why would the victims of 9/11 be happy with you and others misusing their grief and tragedy to attack a 3rd country that had nothing to do with their tragedy. They should actually be pretty pissed of that they were misused in this way.

Those posts citing the Sept attacks in the US are perhaps even more astonishing than the footage. Then again, with a significant support for the birthers movement we should not be that surprised.

However it is a very important point. Until the sloppy US takeover, there was no Al Qaeda in Iraq outside a small area in Kurdistan. And after it, they were all over the place like a rash.

If we - coalition of the willing, NATO and overly eager friends like Australia - do not figure out a way to do better, we (all) will continue to lose in these asymmetric wars. And this comes in the same week as another "leak" about a killing of women in Afghanistan that appears to have been covered up. What else is being hidden, or perhaps the more appropriate question is what % of what is happening do we get to know about and at what leve of honesty.

Aus troops managed to kill a district governor in Afghanistan and that was supposed to be smoothed over. Was it, and did we get a full story? On the track record of what is around now, it does make you wonder.There are probably reasons why Aus has been unwilling this year to commit more generally to offensives, nothing is being said, and perhaps that speaks louder than words would.

The solution to the insurgencies according to the readings of the ROEs that we have been given here would amount to little short of genocide. In general one can assume that the innocent are going to present easier targets than the actual combatants, and so the general population will be eliminated preferentially. I suppose that would make for a cleaner battlefield. Just as well there is supposed to be civilian control over all this.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:26 am

Quoting keesje (Reply 146):
Bringing me back to my believe the real problem is a total disrespect and generalization of in this case the people of Iraq. The crew clearly have the feeling they have the right to shoot everybody / can get away with everything.

The worst bit of this all is that they do, and they can.

The military in the U.S. is out of control in its own sick bubble and nobody cares.

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