|Quoting itsjustme (Reply 131):|
I won't bullshit you - I thought ROE meant ROE, regardless of whether the engagement was on the ground or from the air. So please, enlighten us.
Well the way it works is that there is basic frame work for what the rules are, and they are determined by the ISAF commander, or CENTCOM, or even at the pentagon. From those basic guidelines, the theater command tailors more specific rules to the different branches. And then of course, of different missions, rules may be restricted or relaxed depending on the nature of the mission.
I guess it's a little confusing, huh? Ok well think of it like this: for an infantryman to be legally permitted to shoot an individual, the target has to either fired at you, or present a credible threat to your, or other's, safety.
But if you took those same rules, and applied them to aerial platform - like helicopters or UASs - you'll see that they really wouldn't work. If you can only fire, if fired upon, well how can you possibly provide air support? So the way it works is that the aerial platform becomes an extension of the ground commander... as long as he was fired upon, he can authorize you to engage the target... even though that target never fired on you, directly.
You can also play out the scenario where you're flying down a route, you see a group planting an IED on the side of the road... and in this scenario the crew is required to report what they're seeing to their own higher command, and they will pass down your next instructions, IE
: keep moving, continue to observe, or engage.
...So it can get pretty complex. But the most important thing to remember in the case of this video, the AH
-64s did not have to witness the group firing on the Bushmaster
ground element. Bushmaster
came under fire, they requested aerial support, and the reported to the AH
-64s where they came underfire from. Low and behold, at that location was a group of men, some of whom were armed.
Under the standing ROE in 2007, that was sufficient.
|Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 133):|
And in an environment like Iraq, where a large portion of the populace is armed and open carry is acceptable,
Well no offense... and I realize you have never been there... but that's not really true. I don't know where this belief started at, but Iraqis are not all running around with guns. While they are all authorized to own
a weapon, they certainly are not walking around with them on their shoulders. Believe it or not, Iraq is not Somalia!
So please believe me when I say that a group of guys with guns walking around is not
a normal thing, or something to be confused as a group of buddies walking to the corner store.
|Quoting AverageUser (Reply 161):|
where the operations are carried out in broad daylight without any firearms
You do realize that both sides admit that some of the men in the group were carrying weapons. The only place where people fail to recognize that fact, is here in this discussion.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.