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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:40 am

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 150):
The military in the U.S. is out of control in its own sick bubble and nobody cares.

I would not go that far. Those people are in harm way, they are there for one reason or another, for sure they are not all bad maybe just a small few. Sometimes The Adrealine is pumping very fast and wrong decision are taken. What i don't agree with is that even as clear as it is showing some people do not accept that mistakes were done.

Was meeting a lot of friends yesterday, surprising all of them saw the video (power of the internet) the majority of them including me are very pro Americans, but they all agree that at least part of the shooting was uncalled for. If this is the conclusion of the Pro Americans i dont know how the others will spin this incident.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:04 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 151):
The Adrealine is pumping very fast and wrong decision are taken.

That's what the people are (or should be) trained for to handle. Ok, I've only carried an AK-47 for a year in peacetime, but even I could tell that's not even remotely what an AK-47 fighting unit would look and act like.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 151):
I would not go that far.

There's never going to be a trial into this callous murder of civilians, if you mean that.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:12 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 152):
There's never going to be a trial into this callous murder of civilians, if you mean that.

No i do not agree with

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 150):
The military in the U.S. is out of control in its own sick bubble and nobody cares.
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 152):
an AK-47 fighting unit would look and act like

But they are not regular unit. So you can not predict how they act.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:41 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 153):
No i do not agree with

With there not being a trial ever?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 153):

But they are not regular unit. So you can not predict how they act.

If you are a reinforcement force (which apparently they were in the minds of the U.S. based on the transcript), I'd expect a reinforcement force to be fully equipped with AK-47s, and everyone be carrying an AK-47, and perhaps be in some haste to reach their target. These objects that were carried by some in the film were not even remotely AK-47-like. May I remind that killing unarmed civilians still is an offense.
 
sudden
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:05 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 1):
This thread is going to turn into a real shitstorm...real fast.

And this is just what happened.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:07 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 154):
With there not being a trial ever?

I do not agree with this

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 150):
The military in the U.S. is out of control in its own sick bubble and nobody cares
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:17 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 156):
I do not agree with this

I'm glad to be proven wrong -- but in the current climate in the U.S. I don't think we will ever see a trial into this. There'll only be a deeper spiralling into coverup and lies.
 
Elite
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:18 pm

Did anyone hear what one of the soldiers said towards the end of the video? (Not sure which version has been / hasn't been posted), but it was, "It was their fault for bringing children to the battlefield" after children were gunned down. I still have the utmost respect for the US military, but these things certainly don't help their image in a time where their image is already being damaged!
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:23 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 149):
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 129):
So I guess when a police officer shoots a suspect and an ambulance picks up the wounded person, the medics should be shot at too right?

Not an unreasonable analogy, but one which I am sure will produce some fury from the shoot em up they might be carrying guns and anyways they are Iraqis group.

I'm surprised even you don't get the error in that statement. An ambulance would be properly marked as an emergency vehicle.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 152):
Ok, I've only carried an AK-47 for a year in peacetime, but even I could tell that's not even remotely what an AK-47 fighting unit would look and act like.

And this, in a nutshell, explains why the rest of your arguments don't hold water. Are ANY of the insurgents fighting as a "fighting unit" or is this a different kind of war? They are hardly a "formal" army and do not use normal tactics, so, you can hardly compare them to a normal fighting unit.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 145):
We are not at war.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck...................
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:37 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 159):

I'm surprised even you don't get the error in that statement. An ambulance would be properly marked as an emergency vehicle.

A simply good samritan in a regular car is a better analogy. But why would you shoot at someone trying to help a wounded individual out, irregardless of what kind of vehicle it is.

Shooting at people who are simply trying to help out is just wrong irregardless of who those people are.

A better anology is that a police sniper shoots some people far away that he thinks are holding guns. Then when good samaritans come to help him out the sniper shoots those people to.

If police ever did something like that then there wouldn´t be a question that the office would be punished. Funny thing is that that is basically excactly what happened. They shot the people who came to help the wounded out.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:39 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 159):
They are hardly a "formal" army and do not use normal tactics, so, you can hardly compare them to a normal fighting unit.

Yep, they're engaged in some highly unusual mode of warfare, where the operations are carried out in broad daylight without any firearms, and by walking about in an evidently relaxed fashion. Was this or was it not a camera crew?
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:41 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 161):

Wow. You seem to be such an expert on military tactics and how insurgents work too!
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
Flighty
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:51 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 162):
Wow. You seem to be such an expert on military tactics and how insurgents work too!

It's "well known" that when Muslims walk around talking, or (especially) when they go into a "hideout" to talk, they are plotting the next attack against the USA. Or sometimes Al Qaida (oops I mean Muslims) just drives around in their vehicles, menacingly! And God forbid they should ever touch a weapon.

Quoting Elite (Reply 158):
"It was their fault for bringing children to the battlefield"

Who brought whom to the battlefield? I don't recall Americans being invited there.

OK, time to be productive... bye bye to this thread.
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:59 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 160):
I'm surprised even you don't get the error in that statement. An ambulance would be properly marked as an emergency vehicle.


A simply good samritan in a regular car is a better analogy. But why would you shoot at someone trying to help a wounded individual out, irregardless of what kind of vehicle it is.

I don't think you understand what my statement was about. I was replying to this:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 149):
Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 129):
So I guess when a police officer shoots a suspect and an ambulance picks up the wounded person, the medics should be shot at too right?

Not an unreasonable analogy, but one which I am sure will produce some fury from the shoot em up they might be carrying guns and anyways they are Iraqis group.

I was referring to the error in futurepilot16's statement. His was the wrong analogy because they weren't dealing with a marked ambulance or any other kind of emergency vehicle.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 157):
I'm glad to be proven wrong -- but in the current climate in the U.S. I don't think we will ever see a trial into this. There'll only be a deeper spiralling into coverup and lies.

Since Reuters reported this in 2007, how has it been covered up?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:04 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 164):
Since Reuters reported this in 2007, how has it been covered up?
Quoting Flighty (Reply 163):
bye bye to this thread.

Probably a good idea seeing as you did not actually know what you were talking about the entire time...
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:07 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 164):
I was referring to the error in futurepilot16's statement. His was the wrong analogy because they weren't dealing with a marked ambulance or any other kind of emergency vehicle.

I realize that. My point is that that shouldn´t matter. The end result in this case was that a person driving by with his 2 kids tries to help and gets shot at from an Apache.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:10 pm

Look - I wasn't there and I can't pass judgment on the engagement based on one video without knowing what the scene was for the grunts on the ground - but they obviously had air support for a reason and I see no evidence ROE were breached in any way shape or form before the arrival of the van. The talk about AKs and RPGs if and or but is all garbage.

All that said...

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 108):
Honestly I am sorry for the pilots .... I know a few of them and they do not like having to kill people like this.

Maybe the pilots don't like it but like NIK, as an American I'm truly embarrassed by the gunner's comments with regard to the van. There was obviously a rush to eliminate the wounded man and comments like "come on buddy get up...just pick up a weapon" and "haha right through the windshield" sound like kids with BB guns shooting at rodents rather than professional soldiers. No, I haven't been there, and no, I don't know what it's like - but I know what I heard and it's ugly. These guys by and large volunteered for this job, but it's a job, not an opportunity to play out hot-blooded fantasies on taxpayers' dime. Unfortunately that's exactly what the last few minutes sounded like.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:11 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 167):
Look - I wasn't there and I can't pass judgment on the engagement based on one video without

Isn't that kinda what you just did here:

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 167):
but I know what I heard and it's ugly. These guys by and large volunteered for this job, but it's a job, not an opportunity to play out hot-blooded fantasies on taxpayers' dime. Unfortunately that's exactly what the last few minutes sounded like.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:19 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 168):
Isn't that kinda what you just did here

Um, I clearly stated that there was no issue with the engagement prior to the van. My second comment was clearly about the van. What's the problem?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:23 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 169):
What's the problem?

Not sure... maybe it was how I read it. Idk, the way I take the whole thing is that from the pilots perspective that van could have very well been more insurgents. Color commentary aside from the pilots, I don't see any issue with them having fired on the van. Yes, I realize a child was killed and that is tragic, but the fact remains is that the driver should not have stopped where an Apache just mowed down several people.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:27 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 170):
Idk, the way I take the whole thing is that from the pilots perspective that van could have very well been more insurgents.

Could have been but from the imagery I saw they had a good bead on them - and until weapons come out it's just people helping a wounded guy. There wasn't even any discussion of their threat or situation - prior to the van's arrival someone was clearly cheerleading for an opportunity to take out the wounded man.

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 170):
Color commentary aside from the pilots, I don't see any issue with them having fired on the van

That's obviously where we differ - the commentary says a lot about who's head was where in the game. It sounded unprofessional and I stand by that. I don't like hearing personnel who represent the red white and blue sound like a bunch of cowboys counting Indian feathers.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 171):
the commentary says a lot about who's head was where in the game. It sounded unprofessional and I stand by that. I don't like hearing personnel who represent the red white and blue sound like a bunch of cowboys counting Indian feathers.

Agreed. However, like I eluded to, the crew has no idea who or what is in that van. So I guess the whole point is we cannot pass judgement on what happened based on a couple minuets of video as we'll never have the whole picture.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:35 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 172):
So I guess the whole point is we cannot pass judgement on what happened based on a couple minuets of video as we'll never have the whole picture.

Where the van is concerned, I believe that we have enough to judge. It doesn't look good. The gunner's scope provides pretty damn good imagery if that video is any indication - though I can't say whether what the camera sees is the same as what the gunner sees. If so though, there's nothing threatening about the van in that no weapons or people acting suspiciously are in sight.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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keesje
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:40 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 170):
Yes, I realize a child was killed and that is tragic, but the fact remains is that the driver should not have stopped where an Apache just mowed down several people.

Are you blaming a civilian helping another wounded civilian?

What about some civilization.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:41 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 162):
Wow. You seem to be such an expert on military tactics and how insurgents work too!

DId you notice that none of these people were insurgents?

Quoting mayor (Reply 164):

Since Reuters reported this in 2007, how has it been covered up?

And the military released the video exactly when?
 
Cadet57
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:44 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 174):
Are you blaming a civilian helping another wounded civilian?

In a place where an Apache helicopter just killed some people? Yes. Perhaps if the van driver had some more brains or common sense him and his child would not have been killed.

Quoting keesje (Reply 174):
What about some civilization.

Spare me the lecture. I help people on a daily basis. So don't get holier than thou.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 175):
DId you notice that none of these people were insurgents?

Did you notice that they're in a war zone with people armed with Ak-47's?
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:49 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 176):
Did you notice that they're in a war zone with people armed with Ak-47's?

These people that they aimed at and killed were not insurgents neither was anyone nearby.
 
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KPDX
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:50 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 176):
In a place where an Apache helicopter just killed some people? Yes. Perhaps if the van driver had some more brains or common sense him and his child would not have been killed.


  

That was the point I was trying to make earlier. Are the freshly dead smoking bodies not enough for you to realize that some type of firefight just happened? This is on the father. A sad, sad mistake by the US pilots.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:25 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 176):
In a place where an Apache helicopter just killed some people? Yes. Perhaps if the van driver had some more brains or common sense him and his child would not have been killed.

Or maybe they thought that the heli pilot will not shoot at unarmmed civilians.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 178):
A sad, sad mistake by the US pilots

At last you agreed on this.

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 176):
Perhaps if the van driver had some more brains

Or the gunman on the heli was not itching to fire and kill innocent people.

[Edited 2010-04-07 09:26:37]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:37 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 131):
I won't bullshit you - I thought ROE meant ROE, regardless of whether the engagement was on the ground or from the air. So please, enlighten us.

Well the way it works is that there is basic frame work for what the rules are, and they are determined by the ISAF commander, or CENTCOM, or even at the pentagon. From those basic guidelines, the theater command tailors more specific rules to the different branches. And then of course, of different missions, rules may be restricted or relaxed depending on the nature of the mission.

I guess it's a little confusing, huh? Ok well think of it like this: for an infantryman to be legally permitted to shoot an individual, the target has to either fired at you, or present a credible threat to your, or other's, safety.

But if you took those same rules, and applied them to aerial platform - like helicopters or UASs - you'll see that they really wouldn't work. If you can only fire, if fired upon, well how can you possibly provide air support? So the way it works is that the aerial platform becomes an extension of the ground commander... as long as he was fired upon, he can authorize you to engage the target... even though that target never fired on you, directly.

You can also play out the scenario where you're flying down a route, you see a group planting an IED on the side of the road... and in this scenario the crew is required to report what they're seeing to their own higher command, and they will pass down your next instructions, IE: keep moving, continue to observe, or engage.

...So it can get pretty complex. But the most important thing to remember in the case of this video, the AH-64s did not have to witness the group firing on the Bushmaster ground element. Bushmaster came under fire, they requested aerial support, and the reported to the AH-64s where they came underfire from. Low and behold, at that location was a group of men, some of whom were armed.

Under the standing ROE in 2007, that was sufficient.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 133):
And in an environment like Iraq, where a large portion of the populace is armed and open carry is acceptable,

Well no offense... and I realize you have never been there... but that's not really true. I don't know where this belief started at, but Iraqis are not all running around with guns. While they are all authorized to own a weapon, they certainly are not walking around with them on their shoulders. Believe it or not, Iraq is not Somalia!

So please believe me when I say that a group of guys with guns walking around is not a normal thing, or something to be confused as a group of buddies walking to the corner store.


Quoting AverageUser (Reply 161):
where the operations are carried out in broad daylight without any firearms

You do realize that both sides admit that some of the men in the group were carrying weapons. The only place where people fail to recognize that fact, is here in this discussion.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AGM100
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:41 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 138):
We killed a civilian and his daughter who were driving by and tried to help a guy lying in the gutter. If you are going to tell me our troops can't tell the difference then I will say it again they should get out of the military.

They are all civilians NIK ,all they have to do is hide their weapon.... and representing the van operators as unassociated is a stretch. The driver of the van moved into a obvious combat zone in order to extract wounded ... and did it with his kid in the car ! . If I was the Helo pilot I would have assumed they were insurgents who were aware of the operation and were acting in conjunction. Crazy Horse requests permission to take out the van... and gets it from I assume the on sight commander in Bushmaster. H6 I believe reconfirms that the request came in and that B4 gave the clear to fire to CH ...at that point the chain of command was confirmed...

NIK we disagree on this ...

America put our young men in this situation ... condeming and crying about it now is a nonstarter for me. We dont know the larger picture of the day's up to and the days action these men were involved in ... we have only a snap shot of this incident. Dont give the libs a chance to brand everyone of our soldiers as murderers in a murderers cause.... they will ; they will take every chance they get... f**ck that.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:42 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 180):
You do realize that both sides admit that some of the men in the group were carrying weapons.

I did not see any weapons in or out of the van.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:47 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 182):
I did not see any weapons in or out of the van.

Well you gotta pay closer attention to the conversation... we're talking about the group of men walking in the street, not the van.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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KPDX
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 179):
At last you agreed on this.

Oh, I always agreed with this. It is indeed a sad mistake NOW that we know what happened. I am sure the Apache pilots feel guilty (one would hope). Like I said, it was the heat of the moment, before what we know now.

[Edited 2010-04-07 09:56:32]
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:04 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 175):
Since Reuters reported this in 2007, how has it been covered up?

And the military released the video exactly when?

If it has already been reported, how is it a cover up? Doesn't matter when the video was released. The Pentagon aren't exactly in a position to cover something up that has already made the news.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Acheron
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:04 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 170):
but the fact remains is that the driver should not have stopped where an Apache just mowed down several people.

Even the people who got shot didn't know where the fire was coming from. So, how exactly do you expect a guy who just got to the place, to know there is a gunship with a trigger-happy gunner, circling around?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:07 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 181):
Dont give the libs a chance to brand everyone of our soldiers as murderers in a murderers cause.... they will ; they will take every chance they get... f**ck that.

That's a pretty crass political character attack, no? Some liberals might, especially those in the Sheehan or Kucinich vein, but you won't find Hillary Clinton or other mainstream liberals calling soldiers murderers carte blanche. Try to strive for a little balance, no? This is the same kind of crap as calling all conservatives xenophobes or racists. A spade is a spade.

Now that the video is out, what's done is done. Do you deny that the comments about the van sound unprofessional for the American military, much less make us look bad?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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KPDX
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:09 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 193):
So, how exactly do you expect a guy who just got to the place, to know there is a gunship with a trigger-happy gunner, circling around?

Thats not the point... Obviously people are strewn out dead from some type of firefight, so why would you get out? Especially when it appears they are freshly dead. This is common sense.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:16 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 194):
Do you deny that the comments about the van sound unprofessional for the American military, much less make us look bad?

I don't. I think it's exactly why the policy of keeping gun footage classified, is a good idea. A lot of the gun footage that can be found on the internet was leaked against regulations, and I personally disagree with those soldiers who do it.

This isn't a popular argument, but you have no idea what it's like. You've never been in that seat. What I say in that cockpit is not for public dissemination. And I simply don't think that people who haven't been there, are adequately capable of judging private comments made in the heat of the engagement. And in regards to this video, I didn't hear anything abnormal or inappropriate, the comments were made on ICS, and were private. And no matter how eager he was, he only engaged when the ROE permitted him. There's no war crime in that.

[Edited 2010-04-07 10:21:12]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:38 pm

Sheesh guys, this is ROE. It has been much worse too (from all nations.) Ask a combat vet. Write to the theater commander, they set the ROE you hate so much.
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:53 pm

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):
So people with AK-47s and an RPG are shot at by a US helicopter that was protecting a column of Humvees?

What column of humvees? The only humvees reported on the radio traffic were well to the east of this location. The helicopter engages at 06:22:22 on the helicopter video stamp. The first American vehicle doesn't enter the actual courtyard until 6:31:00 by the sound of the radio traffic. One of the bushmaster elements says that he has movement in the van, possibly a kid. That's a full 9 minutes after they opened up and even longer from the time the indivuduals were spotted by the crazy horse gunships.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):
It's easy for all your armchair quarterbacks to second guess American soldiers, but it's not your life on the line. It's theirs.

It also doesn't do a whole lot of good to knock off a couple of reporters even if they were someplace they shouldn't have been. Witness the new ROE in Afghanistan.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 8):
You're so quick to judge, but you weren't there, and you clearly don't recall the lessons of Somalia.

We didn't have armor in Somalia remember? It was requested and turned down due to "political reasons".

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
No RPG - what the pilot was claiming was an RPG was a camera with a telephoto lens

Negative. At 06:00:00-06:00:05 you can clearly see the man with the RPG and the man with the automatic weapon to his right. Before that, my eyes are bad, but those helicopter pilots must be worse because those are unmistakably cameras.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
In other words - the van driver was a Good Samaritan. Showing absolutely no signs that he was going to engage the US forces. And they still killed him. Nice job, that.

I have to agree with that. The van is first reported at 06:28:30 which is a full 6 minutes after the initial shooting, and shooting at an identified wounded individual at that, ended. So saying this van drove into a hot battle zone is a little disingenious. One of the crazy horse elements reports they have a van picking up the wonded and weapons. Picking up the wounded yes, but no sign they were after weapons.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
This is going to sound callous, but I don't really care all that much: so what's the big deal, here?

Yeah, that does sound kind of callous and I can probably remotely understand your line of thinking but you're paid to be smarter than that.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
That engagement was completely legitimate, and the crew went through the proper steps and procedures.

Going through the proper steps and procedures doesn't mean you shouldn't stop and continually reassess the situation. Sounds like getting the kill was more important to these particular pilots, even to the point of shooting at an obviously wounded individual.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
Honestly, I've engaged on less, and I don't regret any of those engagements.

I hope that's not true.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
but I can say that idiots walking around with AKs and RPGs - especially those taking pop shots - had it coming. That's just the way it went.

When did they even point their weapons at the helicopters? When was the bushmaster element even in the area when they were still able too? It takes almost 9 minutes from the time the bushmaster element says they are mobile, 06:21:27 on the video, to the time they start to report about the possibility of a kid in the van. So who were they shooting at? This wasn't air support, they weren't supporting any units under fire, it was an aerial ambush. And that's OK since it's part of war. Shooting at an obviously wounded individual though is pretty poor sporting.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
And as for the little girl... well the the hell were those people doing, bringing a child into a hot engagement?

Again, it is almost 5 minutes between the time the initial shooting stops and the van shows up. I think if nothing more this video shows the absolute importance of having eyes on the ground whenever possible. What they did wasn't illegal nor I gather against the ROE in force at the time, but it wasn't very smart either. This is the kind of thing that AQ and others pick up on to use as recruiting tools, especially the firing on the wounded guy, that was just dumb.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:57 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 195):
Especially when it appears they are freshly dead. This is common sense.

So he can help the wounded.
I do not know the answer here, but how much danger is a guy after he is shot by few rounds of a 30mlm gun?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:09 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 211):
What column of humvees? The only humvees reported on the radio traffic were well to the east of this location. The helicopter engages at 06:22:22 on the helicopter video stamp

Come'on, don't go and take same lazy attitude as Futurepilot and eea3... there is plenty of documented reports out that, there is even cute little drawings for those too lazy to read...

But here, since you missed it in all of the reports, and in numerous posts in this thread:

The ground element was holding position at a road intersection 2 blocks, or approximately 100m, to the west of the courtyard. They received SAF (small arms fire) from the vicinity of the courtyard, and requested air support. Crazy Horse 18 and 19, responded, and were asked to report any activity from where they received the SAF. **The video starts when they arrived on scene.**

As for why it took 9 minutes for them to come on scene... you apparently did not listen to what was happening? They had to first receive permission to break station, and once they got it, they hooked to the south and pushed north, to prevent anyone from escaping to the south. They did not drive direct from their location to the scene of the engagement, hence why it took the extra time.

Why is this so hard for people to follow?

Quoting DXing (Reply 211):
One of the bushmaster elements says that he has movement in the van, possibly a kid.

Bushmaster or Crazy Horse? When was this, can you provide a time stamp?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:18 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 211):
even to the point of shooting at an obviously wounded individual.

That's not entirely accurate. They observed the wounded man and remarked, "we're done shooting". No matter what their personal conversation entailed, they did not fire at him, as that would be a ROE violation.

What they did fire at was the van attempting to extract him. As I explained earlier, in 2007 it was permitted to fire on insurgents attempting to extract their wounded and their weapons. The entire point of war is to deny the enemy safe haven, materiel, and man power. ...The vehicle was not a marked medical vehicle. Insurgents often tried to extract their wounded, because they did not want them divulging the location of safe-houses, caches, or names of leaders. They were fair game, in 2007.

If you don't like it, take it up with the people who wrote the ROE for 2007, the height of the violence.

Quoting DXing (Reply 211):
I hope that's not true.

Absolutely. Sometimes the threat appeared, and there was no time to go through the radio chit-chat of reporting, requesting permission, and waiting for that go-ahead.

Whether it was crew served M240s or firing M4s from the cockpit, there is not a single time where my crew or I engaged someone that I regret.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:19 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 160):
Quoting mayor (Reply 159):

I'm surprised even you don't get the error in that statement. An ambulance would be properly marked as an emergency vehicle.

A simply good samritan in a regular car is a better analogy. But why would you shoot at someone trying to help a wounded individual out, irregardless of what kind of vehicle it is.

Insensitive beyond belief, where they hell were they to get an ambulance?

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 176):

Did you notice that they're in a war zone with people armed with Ak-47's?

Standing around yacking like that looks just the way AQ training sets them up to be slaughtered?

Quoting DXing (Reply 211):
I think if nothing more this video shows the absolute importance of having eyes on the ground whenever possible. What they did wasn't illegal nor I gather against the ROE in force at the time, but it wasn't very smart either. This is the kind of thing that AQ and others pick up on to use as recruiting tools, especially the firing on the wounded guy, that was just dumb.

Correct, maybe, maybe, certainly not smart, indeed it does and yes it was dumb.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:26 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 214):
They observed the wounded man and remarked, "we're done shooting". No matter what their personal conversation entailed,

I disagree this shows in what mentalty they were before the van arrived. looking for a reason to shoot a wounded guy, as you are an expert, can you say how much damage can few rounds of a 30mlm gun to a human body, also if the heli was waiting for the wounded to pick up gun to shoot him why did he shoot at the van when no guns were in sight?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:28 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 215):
Insensitive beyond belief, where they hell were they to get an ambulance?

Well believe it or not, ambulance drivers were a booming business during those days. They were fairly ubiquitous.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:35 pm



Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 209):
can you say how much damage can few rounds of a 30mlm gun to a human body,

Well a 30mm round is pretty freakin' powerful, it pretty much obliterates the human body. I guess one positive is that you're dead before you know it, unlike the pitiful 5.56.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 209):
lso if the heli was waiting for the wounded to pick up gun to shoot him why did he shoot at the van when no guns were in sight?

As for why they engaged the van... well earlier I explained that these vans (broadly referred to as bongo trucks) were the war chariots of the insurgents. The same bongo that is used to bring Sally to band practice, is the same bongo that is used to plant IEDs, or stage hasty ambushes. With that being said, it was permissible under 07 ROE, that insurgents attempting to remove wounded/weapons from the battlefield, were "fair game" because they were actively entering an engagement. Like I said: the goal of war was to deny shelter, materiel, and man power. As long as it was not a marked medical vehicle, or medical personnel, (which are protected under the Geneva Convention) they were not exempt.

[Edited 2010-04-07 11:37:15]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:40 pm

Quoting cadet57 (Reply 216):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 215):
Standing around yacking like that looks just the way AQ training sets them up to be slaughtered?

Oh for gods sake....

Do you seriously think the original eight should be mistaken for insurgents fighting a battle with US troops? Where ARE the AK47s on the video, not the reports about them, where are the identifiable images to show this is an armed band?
 
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fxramper
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:14 pm

Got to love that selective media coverage of a war.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...bility-leaked-iraq-shooting-video/

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