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AGM100
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 187):
especially those in the Sheehan or Kucinich vein

Exactly who I had in mind.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 187):
Do you deny that the comments about the van sound unprofessional for the American military, much less make us look bad?

The guys sounded a little loose to me .... I agree . But I have never been hovering over a combat zone with my adrenaline pumping ...waiting to feel 7.62 rounds cutting though my ship. It may be a human reaction of stress relief ..... who knows. Its not the movies .... its loud , smoky violent dangerous work.. if thats what they do then who am I to judge.

Here is the the truth and most people have heard it from veterans ... you dont think of them as humans . When you raise your rifle to shoot you dont see Harry whoever...you see the enemy . And when you kill him you feel good. These pilots saw the enemy ..they are targets to be destroyed ... and they feel good doing it. I will go as far to say this ..if these guys knew a kid was in the car they most likly would have held up . If CH reported a child in the van .. I have no doubt that B4 would have held fire.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:34 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 201):
Its not the movies .... its loud , smoky violent dangerous work.. if thats what they do then who am I to judge.

I don't think my cockpit conversations, made over ICS, are for public dissemination. Quite honestly, how can you ever expect someone who has never been there, to be able to relate to what you do & say? Why not put a microphone on every infantryman, and record what he is saying during a firefight?

And when people with no clue, act as though they're self-appointed experts, all it does is inflame the situation.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:05 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 194):

What they did fire at was the van attempting to extract him. As I explained earlier, in 2007 it was permitted to fire on insurgents attempting to extract their wounded and their weapons.

Back to basics: these people were not insurgents, but a camera crew, and some bystanders who tried to help.

A bard and some noble sonnets for the brave soldiers would now be in place as this incidence will be remembered even generations away.

Quoting mayor (Reply 185):

If it has already been reported, how is it a cover up? Doesn't matter when the video was released. The Pentagon aren't exactly in a position to cover something up that has already made the news.

They tried to suppress this video on the shooting of the cameramen. It's still officially "lost" at the moment, but a military bellwhistler leaked it from the inside for the public to see.

The U.S. military said Tuesday it can't find its copy of a video that shows two employees of the Reuters news agency being killed by Army helicopters in 2007, after a leaked version circulated the Internet and renewed questions about the attack.


http://www.salon.com/news/iraq_war/i.../opinion/greenwald/2010/04/06/iraq

[Edited 2010-04-07 13:29:15]
 
AGM100
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:21 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 202):
I don't think my cockpit conversations, made over ICS, are for public dissemination

You may want to rethink that UH .... nowadays you never know who is recording... take good care.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 203):
A bard and some noble sonnets for the brave soldiers would now be in place as this incidence will be remembered even generations away.

Ooooo ... doubt it. They already forgot Saddam..and the Iranians...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:24 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 205):

You may want to rethink that UH .... nowadays you never know who is recording... take good care.

No trust me, I fully realize that many people do not agree. And I fully understand that there are plenty of people who think they know better than me, and are plenty qualified to judge what I say on ICS.

Still doesn't change my opinion that it is wrong, and insulting.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:29 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 202):
Quite honestly, how can you ever expect someone who has never been there, to be able to relate to what you do & say?

It's a very interesting question. And honestly, I think you're asking it rhetorically, as if there's only one answer: that no one can know unless they've "been there" under the same circumstances.

But it isn't the only point of view. And one can argue - quite successfully in fact - that actually being there in person creates a certain distortion ("fog of war" anyone?). Perhaps a much broader, more tempered and more accurate assessment of actions and procedures can be made from afar where emotions and other intervening variables can be minimized in favor of rationality.

None of us can really relate, precisely, to something that happens to somebody else without being in their shoes - that's a given in all aspects of life. And yet there are situations where it is appropriate to judge situations.

I certainly think American citizens have the right to fully understand the costs and consequences of war. As Americans exposed to such scenes more and more, they will become much more sophisticated in assessing them.

But I think Americans have every right to witness this particular incident and many others like it. And if they say "no more", then so be it. We live in a democracy after all.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:31 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 201):
These pilots saw the enemy

Well, no, they saw men who they decided - possibly just assumed - were the enemy. Then they decided

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 201):
they are targets to be destroyed

without it ever being clear that they had good reason to be sure this was the case.

Obviously the US forces are quite content with the events as they suppressed the video in spite of Reuters trying to gain access.

Now they are so confident of what is there that Wiki is accused of editing it. OK, not happy show us what really happened.

As for the ROE, if they really permit that, then the RsOE really do need revising. With the coalition of the willing being the friends of the Iraqis, they would not be in much need of enemies.

Arresting Al Jazeera journos and attacking their offices was one thing, but blasting Reuters journos was not so clever. So what does Al J say (by and large it is far less surprised than "the west")

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...as/2010/04/201045123449200569.html

Video shows 'US attack' on Iraqis

One of the internet's biggest sources of classified government information has released video of what it says is a US helicopter firing at civilians in Iraq.

WikiLeaks, a website that publishes anonymously sourced documents,released what it called previously unseen footage on Monday.

It said the footage filmed from a helicopter cockpit shows a missile strike and shooting on a crowded square in a Baghdad neighbourhood in July 2007.

The website said 12 civilians were killed in the attack, including two journalists, Namir Nour El Deen and Saeed Chmagh, who worked for the Reuters news agency.

The two men appear to survive the first strike and attempt to get away, but the helicopter returns a second and third time.

Probes clear soldiers

The Pentagon has not officially commented on the video and Al Jazeera's Patty Culhane, reporting from Washington, said military officials seemed "completely surprised" when informed of the release of the tape, and appeared not to have heard about the footage beforehand.

But she said Pentagon officials indicated to Al Jazeera that there was no reason to doubt the authenticity of the tape.

She added that the results of two Pentagon investigations given to her cleared the air crew of any wrongdoing.

A statement from the two probes said the air crew had acted appropriately and followed the rules of engagement.

According to the probes, the air crew had reason to believe the people seen in the video were fighters before opening fire, she said.

They added that it was not until after the fact that the soldiers knew there were reporters at the scene and could have even guessed that the people were carrying cameras and not weapons.

Ivan Eland, a defence analyst who has advised US congressmen on military and national security policy, told Al Jazeera that anyone who appeared to be helping hostile targets in a war zone can technically be considered a fair target.

"I don't think anybody tried to purposely kill anybody here but I think in this type of warfare it's not like in a conventional battle, you're not really sure who is in the insurgency and who is not ... and the real problem is in identifying the players and what they are doing in the war," he said.


Oh Ivan, do you know what you were recorded as saying? "anybody tried to purposely kill anybody here"
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:36 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 208):

Well why don't champions of morality such as yourself join the military? Or why don't you throw some fool into that position so you can complain about him following ROE when you aren't man enough to do the job yourself... Once again bud, go complain to the people that make the ROE, not the soldiers that are over there RIGHT NOW doing the exact same thing.
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 195):
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 160):
Quoting mayor (Reply 159):

I'm surprised even you don't get the error in that statement. An ambulance would be properly marked as an emergency vehicle.

A simply good samritan in a regular car is a better analogy. But why would you shoot at someone trying to help a wounded individual out, irregardless of what kind of vehicle it is.


Insensitive beyond belief, where they hell were they to get an ambulance?

Do try to keep up with the rest of us. I was referring to this.............................

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 129):
So I guess when a police officer shoots a suspect and an ambulance picks up the wounded person, the medics should be shot at too right?

And not the actually situation we've been discussing.  

[Edited 2010-04-07 13:46:26]
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 204):
...Says the armchair quarterback.

So you're one of the guys up high at that press the buttons -- pleased to meet you. Sitting in your high-tech 10,000,000+ USD gear, are you pleased with the overall result the U.S. military was to accomplish in this incident -- which will receive worldwide interest? Mistaking a civilian with a camera for an insurgent with an AK-47 -- not even worth saying we're sorry, right?

[Edited 2010-04-07 13:50:47]
 
mandala499
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:04 pm

I don't agree with the US invading Iraq in the first place, but that's for a separate topic... and it's not directly relevant to this unfortunate event (but indirectly, it's probably obvious that it is).

Take the disagreement of the reasons causing this stupid theatre-wide situation out of it, and what do we have? We have insurgents, civilians, and the US soldiers. The latter, are there, to do a job, which is to protect the civilians and their own comrades.

War being war, sometimes, the 2 jobs don't exactly go hand in hand. That doesn't make the soldiers' life any easier (and I'm sure UH60FtRucker knows what I mean). This case, is one of those situations. So here goes... I had not kept track on the war in Iraq much in terms of the incidents of civilians being killed or friendly fire, or whatever, I only kept track of the general situation... so I had the benefit of not having any hindsight benefits prior to seeing the first post on this topic (the words that came to mind was... "incident", and "civilians/reporters killed", to which, I immediately clicked the video link and started watching it.

Here goes:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
I saw three AKs, and only after I paused and re-watched the video, was when I could see that it wasn't an RPG, but rather a camera. But nonetheless he was in the same pose that one fires an RPG.

I saw 3, max 4 AKs. The body language, does not show them to be a potential threat. HOWEVER, the "RPG", was the main problem. It looked like an RPG tube was wielded around the corner. Where's the RPG warhead then? Was it pointed backwards in a taunting game to a ground unit? I actually expected them to do that a few times in agitate the soldiers in the "let's screw your mind up on ROE" game (which is an OLD OLD OLD tactic)... only to suddenly come up with the projectile pointing the right way, and the RPG beginning it's trajectory of death towards the soldiers... it was at that point that the whole "RPG", disappeared from view, and not to be seen. This automatically brand that group, as a threat.

It does appear to me, prior to van arriving, that there was a little fog in the situational awareness as to whether or not the group in the courtyard was the group firing at the ground unit. That to me, appears to be where the mishap originated. Crazyhorse whichever number, Hotel 16, or Bushmaster whichever number, missed at that point.

Again, there's an old old old insurgency tactic of "lure and misdirect". Which is to cause confusion and effect an error by the opposite side. The units involved in this, may have fallen into such a trap. The insurgents were fortunate, that at the time gun fire against the ground unit, the wall corner in question was out of view, otherwise, this video would not have caused such a stirr except to the very determined regardless of the facts facing them.

There are dumb insurgents, and there are smart insurgents. Smart insurgents, know and learn these things and use it to good effect. Again, they were lucky that there were these group of men who in the end, turned out to be journalists with a bloody long lens, and several contracted personnel to provide armed security support. Had it been a large video camera, this would not have happened. Again, smart insurgents know, that >90% of the world, if such a thing like this incident was exposed or claimed, there'll be a lot of talk, like what we see in this topic. Insurgents and terrorists are first and foremost, attention whores and pot-stirrers... their guns and number of people killed, second.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
You don't just dismiss 15 civilian deaths as "It happens".

It' happens... it's war... BUT....

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 24):
That's unacceptable.

Yes...

As clear as the ROEs are written (or how poorly), war is war, and sh1t happens... you can't do a war without mishaps like these... all you can do is mitigate such a risk and hope an incident realizing that risk happen.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 26):
If you're going to properly judge these men, at least have the willingness to properly understand the situation, and rules.

I find it sad that many "anti-war commentators" don't bother to think about how these insurgents go about fulfilling their attention whore desires, and causing death of whoever (they always prefer their you killing civilians first before they do, even if the latter is imminent within the next 5 mins)... There are some insurgency school of thought (the ones bordering on chaos and reverse-terror methodology) that prefer you kill civilians when trying to hit them back, rather than them making a headshot on you. These are the ugly insurgency methods used a lot back many years ago.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 28):
sing everyone's favorite Geneva Convention, extraction of wounded personnel by unmarked other personnel/vehicles does not afford them exemption status.
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 28):
n both Iraq and Afghanistan, insurgents typically make an effort to extract their wounded in order to prevent them from being questioned/interrogated by Coalition forces. And in some cases, if they cannot be extracted, they are shot, to prevent them from revealing the locations of safe houses, cell leaders, weapons caches, etc.

Again, this is an old method. If there's a standard operating procedure in insurgency warfare, this is a global standard for insurgents when the opposition has general control over the area. Extract the wounded, if unable, "silence them"... unacceptable for "civilized" and "conventional warfare" standards, but in an insurgency, a wounded man you cannot extract is as useless as a dead man... and in a lot of cases, more dangerous to you than the soldiers you're shooting at.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 33):
They did not fire on the wounded individual. They engaged the vehicle that was attempting to extract him, and there was no possible way to know there was child in the van.

Yes, as much as the gunner want to kill him, he stuck to the ROE and did not fire on him.

Those of you who think the gunner's attitude is "gung-ho trigger happy and out of this world", need to be reminded, one of the dangers in a war is "prolonged desensitization of war", which does tend to make the enemy look like game... this is very bad in urban insurgency for obvious reasons. There are generally 2 reasons for "treating the enemy like game"... One is pure immaturity, two is the desensitization effect. Put yourselves in a war zone for a long time, and you can suffer from this. That's why there are countries that adopt tour/deployment rotation even at the peak of battle, that is to reduce such a risk. Whether the gunner here suffer from "gung-ho let's treat the enemy like game" syndrome due to pure immaturity or desensitization, it's not for me to decide.

Quoting lewis (Reply 31):
Quote: "Come on, let us shoot!"

Contextually, it is something I don't like hearing, but can comprehend.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 39):
YOU WEREN'T THERE.

Were you? Have you been in a "heat of combat" or been involved in "direct support role for a unit in an engagement" ?

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 39):
You can't see what they are holding and neither could the pilots. In a situation like this, where there is no real danger to anyone, it is criminal to do what was done.

Really? at least 3 AK type were visible from the gun camera, and what looked like to be an RPG tube. On the AKs, now, whether they were AK-47, AKMs, AK-74s or any other type of AK looking weapons with a curved magazine, doesn't really matter, does it?

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 41):
There were no troops there (i.e. close by) and the helicopter was a mile away. This is just pathetic. They were not a threat to anyone. If they thought there was something going on then they have to have someone on the ground to confirm it. They should have sent troops to check this out.

Did you miss out the parts where the pilot said "I can see the dismounted unit"?????? The gun camera is just ONE view of it. Get to the part where the pilot says "I'm gonna get lower", and see the difference in elevation view of the gun camera and realize that they were not very high up nor too far to begin with.

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 45):
I just wonder if any of those that criticize these men have every actually been in a war zone.

Forget warzone... have they been involved in training scenarios involving "the heat and confusion of war", especially scenarios designed specifically to compromise one's situational awareness? My guess is... a big November Oscar.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 47):
Hate the ROE, not the pilots. They were just doing their jobs according to ROE

Spot on!

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 50):
In other words they fired on him...after all he had been loaded into the vehicle.

That is a consequence of being extracted. Hence the Geneva Conventions covering what you can or cannot fire on regarding extraction of the wounded.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 52):
I think I've already covered this a few times. Extraction of wounded by non-medical personnel, does not make that vehicle exempt by default.

And, being a vehicle not marked as a "protected from being engaged" vehicle, how does one not know there are or are not weapons inside it?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 68):
Anyone want to donate to my legal fund?

Ask eaa3 for that!   

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 86):
"On several occasions, the soldiers in the Apache seem to regard the conditions on the ground in the most threatening terms, even when there is limited evidence that this is so. “Have five to six individuals with AK-47s,” they tell the on-scene commander, after identifying only one or two armed people on the street. When the Apache is flying over Saeed Chmargh, while he is wounded and struggling on the pavement, the crew expresses hope that he’ll find a weapon so that they can kill him legally under the Rules of Engagement. But when the van arrives, the Apache crew reports to the commander, “We have individuals going to the scene, looks like possibly uh picking up bodies and weapons.” This is later amended to, simply, “picking up the bodies.” (There are important legal distinctions between the two scenarios.)"

You see a wounded enemy, suffering... no medical help is available to him... there's no way for you to assist him... would you rather just see that person suffer to death or just make it quicker for him? Some will choose the latter... but guess what, you're not allowed to reduce his suffering due to the ROEs. You can always look at it both ways.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 91):
There was just an aircraft flying overhead with trigger happy (killing happy) pilots.

And someone's just a keyboard happy (hate happy) person... what's the difference? They have the ROEs, we have the A.net rules !   

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 92):
...We know NOW that it wasn't an RPG, but like I've said, anyone watching that who did not have prior knowledge, would have never guessed it was a huge camera.

See what I said above after deliberately not giving myself hindsight benefit.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 105):
and the entire Muslim world sees how "evil" Americans are. This video can be spun very negatively and unfortunately, it doesn't take much to see the negative aspects of it. The next thing you know, moderate Muslims who don't know which side to trust, look at this video and it shows that the Americans are persecuting their people. hmmm    I wonder what side they'll choose to support?

Well, I'm not planning on switching sides to the crazy attention whores or change my faith...   

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 198):
You've never been in that seat.

Just saw the vid again... pity it didn't start earlier... would have been able to pick how this mess came to being:
"Let whoever was talking about rooftops know that we engaged personnel on ground level..."
Coz the conversation between CH18 and H26 (or whoever else) would reveal how the mistake occurred.

It was only clear after seeing the video again, that it was a camera! There was only 1 second or less where it was visible that what the guy was holding was a camera with a long lens...

The permission to fire by H26 was given before someone mentioned that (if I understood correctly), the proper target was identified as somewhere else.

grid 5458 8616 or grid 5458 8617?
I don't know how far off that 1 grid is (may have used a different system)

War sucks... coz mistakes happens... this is one of them... sad day it was  
Men eager to fight and shoot is normal in a war... that's why there are ROEs... even with that, things screw up in war.
No matter how good you are, no matter how good the C3 and technology you have, no matter how good the training is, in a war, mistakes happen. The problem is, once you're in it, you got the responsibility to restore law and order before you leave... and that means longer wars and more mistakes. Just pulling out tomorrow means you're just walking away from your responsibility. This is why I don't like war.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:10 pm

I encourage people to read this bit -- quite illuminating.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/04...mage-spinning-away-murder-in-iraq/
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:15 pm

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 206):
But it isn't the only point of view. And one can argue - quite successfully in fact - that actually being there in person creates a certain distortion ("fog of war" anyone?). Perhaps a much broader, more tempered and more accurate assessment of actions and procedures can be made from afar where emotions and other intervening variables can be minimized in favor of rationality.

I agree that people removed from the fight can bring a "clearer" perspective. That's why civilians at the top ultimately frame the rules of engagement.

What I was taking issue with specifically were people getting hysterical over the remarks of the pilot. Does it sound harsh, crude, and insensitive? Sure does. But they've never been there, they have no possible frame of reference... but yet they feel perfectly comfortable asserting their moral superiority. Who the f*ck are they? I mean really... it's bullshit. What I say in the cockpit on ICS should not be for the public's consumption. If they want to keep showing the public the videos, then keep the radio chatter, but not ICS. Personal opinion, of course.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 206):
But I think Americans have every right to witness this particular incident and many others like it. And if they say "no more", then so be it. We live in a democracy after all.

I agree. Earlier I said that I wish more Americans actually gave two shits about what happens over there. It's pretty obvious from the remarks in this thread that way too many of them are completely obvious to the ugly realities.

And as I said earlier - I was very surprised this video created such an uproar. I saw things that were far more bloodly and heartbreaking. Imagine if the public saw them also, they'd be shitting bricks.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 210):
Sitting in your high-tech 10,000,000+ USD gear

Actually it's more like 13million.  
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:23 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 214):
And as I said earlier - I was very surprised this video created such an uproar. I saw things that were far more bloodly and heartbreaking. Imagine if the public saw them also, they'd be shitting bricks.

Naturally this is just the tip of the iceberg -- every thinking person should be able to figure that out!

Of course the people should be given the right to see where they tax money has gone. With the right tone, editing, and the right newscaster, these tapes could potentially become a very entertaining late night show. Some people might have been harmed though.

[Edited 2010-04-07 14:35:25]
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:28 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 211):
And, being a vehicle not marked as a "protected from being engaged" vehicle, how does one not know there are or are not weapons inside it?

That was my point earlier in reference to the bongo truck.

A lot of people were flipping out that he engaged a civilian van. Well as I said, those vans are also the same ones used to plant IEDs, stake ambushes, and basically run around and cause chaos, with.

So putting yourself in the position of that crew, there was no reason to see that van as a civilian entering the battlefield. To them, it was the insurgents coming to collect their buddies and weapons.... just as they had seen done numerous times prior to this engagement.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 211):
See what I said above after deliberately not giving myself hindsight benefit.

Thank you. I did the same. The first time I saw that video, was my first. I had never heard of the video, nor of the specific engagement. When I first saw it, you could only see it for a few seconds, but I truly thought it was an RPG. It wasn't until I read the reports, went back and re-watched it, was when I could discern the shape of a camera. But that was only because I was specifically looking for it.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 211):
rid 5458 8616 or grid 5458 8617?
I don't know how far off that 1 grid is (may have used a different system)

10 meters off. Specifically 10 meters off to the north.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 214):
What I was taking issue with specifically were people getting hysterical over the remarks of the pilot.

I agree; I take no issue with the pilot's comments. It's normal and human to objectify and use words that sound cavalier in a situation like that.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 214):
And as I said earlier - I was very surprised this video created such an uproar.

And I think it is due to the fact so many Americans have been cut off from the realities of the war. It's an abstract thing for most of us. In the long run I think the more people are exposed to the realities of war the less they are manipulated and swayed by the extremes.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:34 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 214):
Naturally this is just the tip of the iceberg -- every thinking person should be able to figure that out!

Point being: I don't see you throwing the same hysterical fit over the videos of insurgents sniping, or detonating IED/VBIEDs, etc. It's not really about wanting to see the truth, it's about wanting to see what fits your preconceived ideas.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 208):

Well why don't champions of morality such as yourself join the military? Or why don't you throw some fool into that position so you can complain about him following ROE when you aren't man enough to do the job yourself... Once again bud, go complain to the people that make the ROE, not the soldiers that are over there RIGHT NOW doing the exact same thing.

You're not insulting me by saying i'm not "man enough" to do the job. If a terrorist is a coward for a driving a van full of explosives into a crowded market filled with innocent civilians, then these soldiers are cowards for shooting and killing good Samaritans while they were trying to help a wounded man nuff said. I could give a shit about the ROE because it still gives soldiers the right to kill anyone they want without getting in trouble. What i'm annoyed by is the fact that these soldiers could have at least shown a little respect while they mercilessly cut down 12 people without hard evidence that they were militants. You can take your ROE and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 211):
It' happens... it's war... BUT....

I understand that. But i'm upset by the fact that people are dismissing it as a none issue. As I said, this is not a conventional war. If it was, I wouldn't be having this conversation because I wouldn't care what happens to civilians. But in this case, Muslim militants are gonna have a field day with this video, showing how merciless and arrogant U.S. military members can be and that does not have a good outcome for the members of our military. It's cause more bloodshed and drag this battle out for longer than we anticipated. Do you think the kids of the guy that was killed will ever forget this? Look how young they are.
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:42 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 217):
Point being: I don't see you throwing the same hysterical fit over the videos of insurgents sniping, or detonating IED/VBIEDs, etc.

I see none of these in this video. No insurgents are pictured here. It's sad when/if your mental health in a war deteriorates to a state where everyone is understood to be an enemy. I predict the "long shadow" of this war will be severe in the institutions providing psychological care in the U.S.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:00 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 218):
As I said, this is not a conventional war. If it was, I wouldn't be having this conversation because I wouldn't care what happens to civilians.

I am just absolutely amazed that you just said that. You don't care about civilians on the battlefield, as long as it is a "real war."

How can you possibly criticize these pilots, but also say something so blatantly heartless.

At least the people, including me, who have defended the crew in the video have remarked that we find it regretful that civilians had to get caught up in this mess... but for you to say something like that goes beyond any level of comprehension.

...You don't care about civilians in real wars... wow...
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Flighty
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:07 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 47):
Hate the ROE, not the pilots. They were just doing their jobs according to ROE

The civilians also have ROE.

Defending oneself from a wrongful strike is the right of the civilian. They had the legal right to bring that Apache down. If we're being legalistic.
 
futurepilot16
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 220):
am just absolutely amazed that you just said that. You don't care about civilians on the battlefield, as long as it is a "real war."

How can you possibly criticize these pilots, but also say something so blatantly heartless.

At least the people, including me, who have defended the crew in the video have remarked that we find it regretful that civilians had to get caught up in this mess... but for you to say something like that goes beyond any level of comprehension.

...You don't care about civilians in real wars... wow...

You seem to not understand what I mean. If this was a COUNTRY that attacked our country and killed our civilians, then I could care less what happens to their civilians because at that point it is tit for tat. We saw it in WW2, when the gov't kidnapped thousands of Japanese Americans and locked them in prison camps in Cali, and when they dropped Atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so don't try to make me seem like some evil person. In this case, it was group, an insurgency, NOT a country that attacked us. Therefore, it is imperative that we try to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. My credibility is fine, maybe we should question your credibility and you views towards the Iraqi people. You have shown that you absolutely lack any feelings for Iraqi civilian
"The brave don't live forever, but the cautious don't live at all."
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:03 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 222):
You seem to not understand what I mean. If this was a COUNTRY that attacked our country and killed our civilians, then I could care less what happens to their civilians because at that point it is tit for tat.

Comments like that are just completely unnecessary. You cannot run to the moral high ground, and criticize these pilots... but then also say that you wouldn't care about civilian deaths in a "real war" (whatever that means)... and then expect anyone to take you seriously. The two do not compute.

Not to mention it looks self-serving to act all offended by the deaths of two innocent reports, and two children... but to then go and post such cavalier and heartless comments. Either way, it's woefully naive to say such things, and makes people tune you out.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:09 pm

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 222):
You have shown that you absolutely lack any feelings for Iraqi civilian

And comments like that only highlight how little you know.

I encourage you to go back and reread many of my posts, made during my deployments. I've remained fairly consistent, when it comes to the Iraqi people. As I've said here, it was very unfortunate that civilians died in this mess, but that it was the nature of war, and not an act of malice or negligence.

And as for not caring for civilians, comments like that are utter garbage. I have placed myself and my crew in between insurgents and civilians (in case you didn't know, the majority of insurgent attacks were not against US forces, rather against other Iraqis), and I've taken plenty of risks on the behalf of Iraqi civilians.

I think the largest difference between the two of us, is that I'm not just sitting in a dorm room, talking about how much I care, I'm actually out there doing something.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:33 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 211):
Whether the gunner here suffer from "gung-ho let's treat the enemy like game" syndrome due to pure immaturity or desensitization, it's not for me to decide.

Fair enough point when all is said and done - but for untrained observers, the fact that it sounds bad is enough. And that category fits 90% of the people in the world who will see the video.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 213):
Does it sound harsh, crude, and insensitive? Sure does. But they've never been there, they have no possible frame of reference... but yet they feel perfectly comfortable asserting their moral superiority. Who the f*ck are they?

In fairness, we are paying your salaries and equipment costs. Boards of directors criticize management all the time despite never working a day in the organization on the ground, so to speak. Same deal. Anyone footing the bill for something periodically asserts their right to complain about what they see.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 222):

You seem to not understand what I mean. If this was a COUNTRY that attacked our country and killed our civilians, then I could care less what happens to their civilians because at that point it is tit for tat.

That's plainly idiotic. Civilians are civilians, period. Your logic fails the reason test.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:47 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 225):
In fairness, we are paying your salaries and equipment costs.

Do you forget that I pay taxes just as every other citizen. (Although on a random side note: the news this morning was that the Tax Policy Center is reporting that this year 47% of US citizens will not pay income tax! So apparently only 53% of us have that right, lol).

But anyway, yes we do pay taxes. But the military does not answer to the public. They answer to the private citizens that the public elects (or those elected officials appoint). I'm sorry, but I just don't think the public ought to be privy to my ICS communications.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 225):

That's plainly idiotic. Civilians are civilians, period. Your logic fails the reason test.

Thank you! I'm glad I wasn't the only one completely baffled by such callous and uniformed remarks!
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:54 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 193):
The ground element was holding position at a road intersection 2 blocks, or approximately 100m, to the west of the courtyard. They received SAF (small arms fire) from the vicinity of the courtyard, and requested air support. Crazy Horse 18 and 19, responded, and were asked to report any activity from where they received the SAF. **The video starts when they arrived on scene.**

I'd a appreciate a link to that because my take on it, given the radio chatter, was that they had taken small arms and RPG fire from south of that position earlier but have never been near that particular courtyard. From the radio it appears as if Crazy Horse lead is reporting the individuals to Bushmaster two six who gives the ok to engage.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 193):
As for why it took 9 minutes for them to come on scene... you apparently did not listen to what was happening? They had to first receive permission to break station, and once they got it, they hooked to the south and pushed north, to prevent anyone from escaping to the south. They did not drive direct from their location to the scene of the

My impression from the the radio traffic was that they were ordered to the position by Bushmaster 7 and to make sure they had a camera to document what they found. I did not hear them say they were hooking south but that one element was asking permission to head south to cut off any avenue of escape.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 193):
Bushmaster or Crazy Horse? When was this, can you provide a time stamp?
Quoting DXing (Reply 191):
The first American vehicle doesn't enter the actual courtyard until 6:31:00 by the sound of the radio traffic. One of the bushmaster elements says that he has movement in the van, possibly a kid.
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 194):
That's not entirely accurate. They observed the wounded man and remarked, "we're done shooting". No matter what their personal conversation entailed, they did not fire at him, as that would be a ROE violation

That's not accurate by what I see either. I am not in position to access the video at this time but my recollection, and I will check it later, is that after they discuss on the IC the wounded man crawling the second AH-64 opens up again.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 194):
What they did fire at was the van attempting to extract him. As I explained earlier, in 2007 it was permitted to fire on insurgents attempting to extract their wounded and their weapons.

I understand that and if no American ground units had been in the area I would agree with it. But in this case units were nearby, the air unit had them under observation, there were no weapons visible and the pilot was in error in reporting that the people in the van were retreiving both wounded and weapons. Obviously they were picking up the wounded man, none of them were scouting around for weapons.

I don't have a problem with their language, or their actions up to the point they fired at the wounded man. The two reporters should have known the risks of hanging around with armed individuals when a flight of attack helicopters were nearby and one of the camera men definitely knew they were there as he peeked around the corner at them just before the shooting started. Firing at the wounded guy was not smart. Firing at the van was also not smart when ground units in armored vehicles were close by and could be in a position to intercept. Running over the dead guy doesn't look real good either given the amount of room in the courtyard. I understand what the ROE were but again, just because it is OK to fire on the van does not mean it is necessarily the smart thing to do.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 199):
Where ARE the AK47s on the video, not the reports about them, where are the identifiable images to show this is an armed band?

Look at 06:00:00 to 06:00:05 on the helicopter video time stamp. The RPG is clearly visible as is the AK-47 the man to his right is holding. The two guys with cameras are out of frame at that time.

I don't doubt there were armed people there or do I disagree that the Crazy Horse unit had the right to open up on them. Nothing about the engagement is illegal but there are elements to it where a little more intelligence could have been applied.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 213):
What I say in the cockpit on ICS should not be for the public's consumption. If they want to keep showing the public the videos, then keep the radio chatter, but not ICS. Personal opinion, of course.

Agree 100%.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 219):
No insurgents are pictured here.

Look again. Walking around that city with an AK47 and and RPG in 2007 would most likely put you in that catagory.
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:08 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 226):
But the military does not answer to the public.

Officially, they don't. That applies to just about all government institutions - but unofficially and in a very practical sense they are all affected by the public's mindset as you well know. Less support for what the military does only results in greater difficulty for them to get their jobs done.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 226):
Do you forget that I pay taxes just as every other citizen

Well I don't forget that, no, but that wasn't the point. If I sit on the board somewhere I have no idea what the rank and file are really doing but that doesn't mean I sit back and stay quiet as the pursestrings are mine. Members of the military indeed pay taxes but their numbers are not nearly enough to foot the bill - the pursestrings lie elsewhere and as the officials who direct the military depend on funds from taxes to deliver their directives, that's ultimately where the buck stops, no?

Look, I'm not saying it's a good thing that ICS conversations be made public - it obviously isn't - especially when foreigners are going to see this however they will. But anyway the ones from this particular case are out, for better or worse, and they don't sound good. The DoD may want to have a word with Congress as to whether or not this kind of information can be subject to FOIA requests - and they damn well better find whoever leaked this video footage. Still concerned about the professionalism though.

My grandfather did three years in the back of a B-24 in the Pacific and once had to help knock out a member of his crew on Captain's orders - the guy thought it was OK to drop bombs on non-target areas in the Philippines since "Japs are everywhere down there". Can only imagine what his reaction would be here. Different war, sure, but the risk to them with flak all over the place was little different.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:00 am

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 219):
No insurgents are pictured here.

How do you know that? Do the insurgents have a special uniform so they're recognizable? Anybody, not in uniform, could be an insurgent.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 218):
Muslim militants are gonna have a field day with this video, showing how merciless and arrogant U.S. military members can be and that does not have a good outcome for the members of our military

All of a sudden you have empathy for the members of our military? What brought that on? All I've seen from you, so far, is branding them, in general, as murderers, coward and trigger happy.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 218):
You're not insulting me by saying i'm not "man enough" to do the job. If a terrorist is a coward for a driving a van full of explosives into a crowded market filled with innocent civilians, then these soldiers are cowards for shooting and killing good Samaritans while they were trying to help a wounded man nuff said. I could give a shit about the ROE because it still gives soldiers the right to kill anyone they want without getting in trouble. What i'm annoyed by is the fact that these soldiers could have at least shown a little respect while they mercilessly cut down 12 people without hard evidence that they were militants. You can take your ROE and shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

With this attitude, it's probably a good thing you aren't in the military. You might make a good candidate for a blanket party.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:05 am

I offer to close this discussion on the following.

It is sad that civilians lost there lives.
An incident happens where maybe with better info things could have resulted differentely
Hope that lessons were learned from this.
We have all the respect to the American Army
War is not a way to solve any conflict.
DOD should have better communication with media so things are clearer..
Soldiers should be more careful what they say during a battle in case they are recorded so they do not give a wrong impression

Don't know if we can all agree on the above. But i do not see this discussion going anywhere.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:20 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 227):
I'd a appreciate a link to that

Honestly... and this really isn't a hit against you, but no. After both eea3 and futurepilot refusing to do any of their own leg-work, I'm simply tired of doing it for other people. The information is out there and very accessible.

Quoting DXing (Reply 227):
From the radio it appears as if Crazy Horse lead is reporting the individuals to Bushmaster two six who gives the ok to engage.

Real quick rundown: Bushmaster was the company command, led by Bushmaster 6. The company was split in platoons over different locations in the area. Bushmaster was located to the north of the courtyard. Hotel platoon was the one at the near by corner to the west, led by the platoon LT Hotel 26.

Hotel 26 reported the SAF from the vicinity of the courtyard, and asked that the AH-64s recon that location for possible enemy. Bushmaster popped white smoke at the OP to the north of the courtyard. I understand there is a lot of radio chatter, but I listen to 8 radios at the same time when I fly... so it's an acquired skill! But if you listen to the FM radio, at the 05:55 mark, you will hear Bushmaster 7 say that he had popped smoke at the OP to the north.

Tracking so far?

Ok so next, Crazy Horse 18 says there is a wounded person there, Bushmaster 7 says he is going to move down there. (06:12) Hotel asks "do you have my turf" you're prior military, right? He's asking if Bushmaster is providing security while he moves to join. While they are engaging the van, Hotel element is moving to Bushmaster. When they link up, they report that they cannot flex south until Bushmaster mounts up (they were dismounted at a road intersection).

Once they're ready, they move south together. Does that clear up the confusion as to why "it took so long for them to arrive on scene" ?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ual777
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:48 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 129):

Cry me a river, please. We know what the enemy does, we see it all the time in the western media. I don't know about you, but I hold American soldiers to a higher standard that I hold Al Quaeda militants. We can't stoop to their level because they'll only turn around and use it againts us.

We don't stoop to their level.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 129):

Will you people please stop using that damn statement. This isn't just a "war zone". This is unlike any other war that any one has ever fought in history. We are fighting a group, not a country, so it's not perfectly acceptable to kill 12 civilians and dismiss it as getting caught in the crossfire. When we invaded Iraq for their oil.

Its still a war zone. There is an enemy, and they need to be killed.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 137):

I told ual777 to cry me a river. His opinion is clearly skewed because he is vengeful for what he saw, therefore, he doesn't mind whichever Iraqi is killed, as long as they're killed.

Your opinion is skewed because you are ignorant to military realities. Why don't you stop telling people what I think and let me do that for myself.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
hercppmx
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:03 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 231):
I said what THESE particular pilots did was "involuntary manslaughter"

Quit trying to judge the situation by civilian law and terms, without any experience with War or the rules of engagement during that specific time in that specific place. Under basic ROE it appears to be a clean shoot, with a very sad out come.

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 231):
the reason why I am so against what these pilots did is because it will come back to haunt out troops in some way.

The Pilots did their job, and your right it they hadn't it could have put the guys of the ground in a bad spot.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 221):
The civilians also have ROE.
Defending oneself from a wrongful strike is the right of the civilian. They had the legal right to bring that Apache down. If we're being legalistic.

"Legalistic" speaking once they aim in on the helo under ROE they are no longer "Civilians", They'd become a target for the apache engage.
C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:41 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 227):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 199):
Where ARE the AK47s on the video, not the reports about them, where are the identifiable images to show this is an armed band?

Look at 06:00:00 to 06:00:05 on the helicopter video time stamp. The RPG is clearly visible as is the AK-47 the man to his right is holding. The two guys with cameras are out of frame at that time.

Thanks for the inf, but I presume that was a Utube link and now I cannot get back into them. But last time I certainly could not see either and I could see a camera and a possible tripod. And certainly I did not see any AK47s in anything remotely like a firing position. Unless they fire them underneath their T-shirts.

Basically the film shows the success of AlQ tactics. They produced - for whatever reason - unacceptable behaviour on the part of an invading force. Every time a helicopter did/does that, AlQ win. Have you read Al J and the interviews with the relatives of the journos?

Or would the defenders of the actions put themselves in the position of the relatives, would you be OK with say a Russian helicopter that had just done a similar shoot up on them? Fine for me to say, well just following ROE?

It might have been normal practice, but might it not show that it is foolish to take on unwinnable wars. And before telling me those two were winnable, let me remind that Afghanistan is now more than 50% as long and the British fought Hitler's Germany, and if you were assessing progress in WWII terms, you might put it at early 1942, though some would settle for mid 1941.

And Karzai and Maliki show just how difficult it is to get good Quislings these days.
 
mandala499
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:23 am

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 218):
What i'm annoyed by is the fact that these soldiers could have at least shown a little respect while they mercilessly cut down 12 people without hard evidence that they were militants.

I shake my head. Spend a month down a hot zone in an insurgency scenario, you'd probably show less mercy... especially after reading:

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 218):
If it was, I wouldn't be having this conversation because I wouldn't care what happens to civilians.

Mirror mirror on the wall, who's the butcher now?

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 218):
But in this case, Muslim militants are gonna have a field day with this video, showing how merciless and arrogant U.S. military members can be and that does not have a good outcome for the members of our military.

It hasn't ended up as a field day for militants so far.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 215):
10 meters off. Specifically 10 meters off to the north.

Cheers for that. Last time I used ops grids, they were 100x100... *so that was a while back*
I am still curious as to where/how the mistake originated... "rooftops" vs "ground level"... how was this missed? Without that, this so called incident, is nothing more than slapping the military for PR gains by whoever... doesn't do anything to reduce risk of repetition without additional casualty risk to the soldiers.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 221):
They had the legal right to bring that Apache down. If we're being legalistic.

Had they survived, yes... whether such an action was wise for any surviving members of the group... No... *sigh*

Quoting futurepilot16 (Reply 222):
In this case, it was group, an insurgency, NOT a country that attacked us. Therefore, it is imperative that we try to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. My credibility is fine, maybe we should question your credibility and you views towards the Iraqi people. You have shown that you absolutely lack any feelings for Iraqi civilian

In any war, be it conventional or not, the conventional force's objective should be achieved whilst always trying to minimize loss of civilian life (as the risk can never be eliminated for sure).
Your comments towards UH60FtRucker is now looking to be a typical "I'm less evil than you"... guess what, that's another classical insurgency PR tactic!   

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 225):
Fair enough point when all is said and done - but for untrained observers, the fact that it sounds bad is enough. And that category fits 90% of the people in the world who will see the video.

That's why, footage such as this, should, remain classified until (and only until) the side undertaking the act is actively involved.

Quoting DXing (Reply 227):
The two reporters should have known the risks of hanging around with armed individuals when a flight of attack helicopters were nearby and one of the camera men definitely knew they were there as he peeked around the corner at them just before the shooting started.

This is a major problem in an insurgency situation. In a conventional war situation, the press, would, go and mark themselves clearly as the press. Even in Bosnia, that's what they did, mind you, some didn't like what the press was doing and ended up shooting them... But this is Iraq, a place where the badboys couldn't careless who to shoot as long as the target isn't "on their side". Had the press been marking themselves clearly as press, they'd end up being targets.. of not for the badboys' bullets, then as kidnapping targets... (and yes, a friend of mine was kidnapped by insurgents along with her crewmember in Iraq... I think it was near Basra... at least she lived to tell the tale, and is back on the anchor desk... no more hotzone deployments for her).

For the benefit of others... An insurgency situation is a no-win situation for anyone except for the insurgents. Ask any civilians, journo, or soldier that has been stuck in such a situation before...

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 230):
Hope that lessons were learned from this.
DOD should have better communication with media so things are clearer..

Spot On!

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 231):
Does that clear up the confusion as to why "it took so long for them to arrive on scene" ?

I guess some doesn't understand classical insurgency tactics... "Baiting for Ambush"... preventing that is why it took a long time... The first time around, I actually thought, Hmm... if someone shot down the Crazyhorse assets, it would have been a perfect classical set up for "Bait Ambush"... courtyard, bodies to the side, rubble and light obstacles in the courtyard, myriad of houses surrounding the courtyard... cumbersome tanks and humvees, with groundtroops entering the courtyard dismounted... Perfect set up for "Bait Ambush" phase 2... (entering the courtyard mounted, would have been an easy massacre). Lucky that was not the case that day, but still, a tragic day...

I never agreed to this war (this is probably where me and UH60FtRucker differ), but, the US is there, and it's their responsibility to formulate a safe outcome for Iraq in the end. This is what people need to remember, it is the moral obligation of the "invading victor" to ensure law and order is maintained/restored, regardless on whether the invasion was justified or not in the beginning. Now, whether one likes it or not, those who want law and order restored, must understand the difficult situation the US troops in Iraq are in. Incidents such as this, is a risk the conventional force trying to (re-)establish law and order must undertake. (This is one of the many reasons why, in many wars, soldiers of equal professional conduct on both sides of the front line, have respect for the other side).

I do wonder whether futurepilot16 really, genuinely care about the civilian plight over there... or whether the posts here are just simply "we are evil therefore we should pull out and let them kill each other".

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:45 am

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 233):
"Legalistic" speaking once they aim in on the helo under ROE they are no longer "Civilians", They'd become a target for the apache engage.

No longer. Think about that. Steady there, you just admitted they WERE civilians, and in case you did not notice, the Apache attacked them anyway without their even being aware of its presence.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:00 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 226):
But the military does not answer to the public.

My main fear confirmed here. As I said in the beginning, the U.S. military lives in its own sick bubble, pretending to be a private army responsible to noone.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):

It might have been normal practice, but might it not show that it is foolish to take on unwinnable wars.

Where are we now in Iraq on the Vietnam scale? 1968-9?

Finally here, a comment from the Guardian newspaper in Britain:

Regardless of how many pundits attempt to frame this tragedy within the vagaries of a "war is hell" narrative, Collateral Murder will prove to be a landmark event in the reportage of the Iraq war, as it forces the viewer, in the most visceral way possible, to simultaneously confront both the deplorable unreality of American aggression and the grim fate of those caught within its scope


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...leaks-collateral-murder-iraq-video
(See the Comments section as well)

[Edited 2010-04-08 06:19:00]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:38 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 237):
in the most visceral way possible, to simultaneously confront both the deplorable unreality of American aggression

It's simply poor writing when platitudes like this are used for their intended audience. It's worth pointing out that compared to US military capability, the "aggression" on display here is highly restrained, if anything. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen - but suffice to say it could be a hell of a lot worse. And that's understating a lot.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:31 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 237):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 226):
But the military does not answer to the public.

My main fear confirmed here. As I said in the beginning, the U.S. military lives in its own sick bubble, pretending to be a private army responsible to noone.

UH60FtRucker is exactly right. The military doesn't answer to the public......not directly at least. They are there to follow the orders of their Commander In Chief, the President. You want to see chaos and confusion? Think of the public running the show, everyone with different ideas of how it should be run and practically no one with the experience to pull it off.

This is why we elect our Representatives and Senators..........THEY answer to us (or are supposed to, anyway) and have oversight of the military and how our tax money is spent (again, SUPPOSED to).

This was a tragic accident, nothing more. To label them as murderers and cowardly is, in itself a cowardly act by people that haven't been there or in that situation. I don't consider defending the Finland-Sweden border against the hoards of Swedes the same situation, do you?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:58 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 238):
The military doesn't answer to the public......not directly at least.

It does. The U.S. military acts in the name of the U.S. government, which is elected by the voting public in the U.S. If it does not, we're talking about a military junta.

Quoting mayor (Reply 238):
This was a tragic accident, nothing more.

Dare you ever remove your "U.S. Army" specs?

When do you reckon the military will finally "find" the video in its archives?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:08 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 239):
It does. The U.S. military acts in the name of the U.S. government, which is elected by the voting public in the U.S. If it does not, we're talking about a military junta.

Well I appreciate you telling the US how their own chain of command works, but you might want to stick to matter's regarding Finland?

Company --> Battalion --> Brigade --> Division --> Corps --> Unified Combatant Command --> Secretary of Defense --> President.

That is the official chain for the majority of units, obviously there are some differences with specialized units, etc. But no where does "John Q. Public" fall in that chain. THAT was my point.

Of course the military ultimately answers to the public... like I said... the public is the one who elects our civilian leadership. The public will always ultimately have the final "say". But we do not answer directly to them, that would be chaos.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:30 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 193):
Come'on, don't go and take same lazy attitude as Futurepilot and eea3... there is plenty of documented reports out that, there is even cute little drawings for those too lazy to read...
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 231):
Honestly... and this really isn't a hit against you, but no. After both eea3 and futurepilot refusing to do any of their own leg-work, I'm simply tired of doing it for other people. The information is out there and very accessible.

Number one, I'm not lazy as it should be apparent from previous threads that I go to lengths to document things I post as fact. Secondly, if this is so well documented then I must be losing my skill as a searcher because I'm not finding them. Third, I asked politely, I did not accuse you of being wrong and demand proof to the opposite.

Quoting DXing (Reply 227):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 194):
That's not entirely accurate. They observed the wounded man and remarked, "we're done shooting". No matter what their personal conversation entailed, they did not fire at him, as that would be a ROE violation

That's not accurate by what I see either. I am not in position to access the video at this time but my recollection, and I will check it later, is that after they discuss on the IC the wounded man crawling the second AH-64 opens up again

And now I am. At 06:22:08 on the helicopter video stamp the initial firing is done. Just before that at 06:22:01 one of the crazy horse units says "Yeah we got one guy crawling around down there but, uh, you know, we got, definitely got something." Right after that you can see the dust kicked up by a new round firing and the second unit says "We're shooting some more". The rounds impact all along the wall of the houses where the wounded person was. Whether they hit him or not is not clear because the buildings block the shot but they definitely fired after commenting on the guy crawling around. Maybe they thought they missed him on the first burst but common sense would tell you if he was on the ground crawling in the open that he was probably hit. Just not a smart move to open up on him again without reassessing his situation. No ground units were in danger at the time.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 231):
Real quick rundown: Bushmaster was the company command, led by Bushmaster 6. The company was split in platoons over different locations in the area. Bushmaster was located to the north of the courtyard. Hotel platoon was the one at the near by corner to the west, led by the platoon LT Hotel 26

This we can generaly agree on although my impression is that Bushmaster 7 is in charge since the crazy horse unit ask him for permission to engage the van. My impression is also that the Bushmaster main element is located to the west of the engagement area as at the beginning he confirms with crazy horse that they have no units east of their described position.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 231):
I understand there is a lot of radio chatter, but I listen to 8 radios at the same time when I fly... so it's an acquired skill!

Save it. I've had jobs with the airline where I had to listen to 4-5 freqs and talk on the phone and type at the same time so let's just assume we both know what we're doing.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 231):
Once they're ready, they move south together. Does that clear up the confusion as to why "it took so long for them to arrive on scene" ?

No, I don't hear them talk about a coordinated move at all. Copperhead seems to be the bradley element which is stopped east of the engagement area. Hotel 4 announces that he has his dismounted elements moving in between the bradleys. Bush master 2-6 requests permission to swing to the south to establish a blocking position which is a change from his original order by Bush master 6 to head immediately to the engagement area and take a camera to record what he finds. Bush master 2-4 reports he is headed to the location and is not heard from again. Copperhead and Hotel 4 appear to be the first units to reach the engagement area and Copperhead reports the kids in the van. That is at the 06:31:00 mark and right after that Bush master 7 rogers that and reports he is right behind the Copperhead element. At 06:32:00 the first bradley comes into view, I assume that is the copperhead element. A call goes out just after that asking if bush master 2-6 is at the scene and his response is that he is not, they moved to the south to set up a blocking position. They are then ordered (again) to get to the courtyard and help set up a cordon. At that same time you can see the first dismounted troops (hotel 4) entering the courtyard which is at just about the 06:33:00 mark. That's 6 minutes after the shooting stopped and those units were only 5 blocks or so away.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):
And certainly I did not see any AK47s in anything remotely like a firing position. Unless they fire them underneath their T-shirts.

They didn't need to be in firing position. In an ambush you don't give the enemy time to bring his weapons to bear. The whole idea is to catch them off guard and it's a completely legitimate tactic of war.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):
Every time a helicopter did/does that, AlQ win.

I'll agree on that.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):
Fine for me to say, well just following ROE?

Yes, it would be. As I said, they didn't do anything illegal that I can see. If they thought the wounded guy was still trying to fight then they were within their rights to open up on him. However, from my view, and granted it's years later and away from the fight, a little selective intelligence would have gone a long way here. No one on the ground was in any danger from this guy, or the people in the van for that matter. They could have held fire and allowed the ground units, which were dragging tail imo to get in there and assess the situation. Perhaps then we wouldn't have produced such a good recruiting tool for AQ.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):
It might have been normal practice, but might it not show that it is foolish to take on unwinnable wars.

Now you're stretching. To take one incident and ascribe it to the actions of all in a difficult conflict?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):
And Karzai and Maliki show just how difficult it is to get good Quislings these days.

Still afraid of the power of the vote eh?

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 237):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 226):
But the military does not answer to the public.

My main fear confirmed here. As I said in the beginning, the U.S. military lives in its own sick bubble, pretending to be a private army responsible to noone.

A fine example of selective quoting. He actually said:

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 226):
But anyway, yes we do pay taxes. But the military does not answer to the public. They answer to the private citizens that the public elects (or those elected officials appoint).

Which is entirely correct and as it should be. Our military does not live in it's own bubble responsible to no one.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:51 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 241):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):
And Karzai and Maliki show just how difficult it is to get good Quislings these days.

Still afraid of the power of the vote eh?

Well indicative of the general level of nightmare, of which this video is but a very tiny part, you now have Karzai accusing the west of faking his election.         So yes, not that keen on chucking voting into such a chaotic situation. Not sure of an alternative, but also not sure that voting is the way out. Ole Karzai he seems to know a thing or two about organizing the results. But when the UN guy swapped accusations of K being a drug addict for whatever it was K thought he had done, I sort of switched off. If Obama sorts out K, he really does deserve a bloody medal.

Quoting DXing (Reply 241):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 234):
And certainly I did not see any AK47s in anything remotely like a firing position. Unless they fire them underneath their T-shirts.

They didn't need to be in firing position. In an ambush you don't give the enemy time to bring his weapons to bear. The whole idea is to catch them off guard and it's a completely legitimate tactic of war.

I have to confess to being too busy to follow up whether the AK47s were real or were the required ones for the action to have been legit. Some of the assertions that there were AK47s seem to be repeats of the original military reports. But I expect I will read appraisals where someone else has done the legwork and found what actually happened. I imagine the Fisks and the McGeoghs of this world will tell us in due course. Not to mention that Reuters have a modest interest in the full story being told . It is possible their guys were messing with insurgents, but if they were, it seems unlikely Reuters would have been ferreting around for this for so many years. The lid is well and truly off the worm can now.
 
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mayor
Posts: 6218
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 239):

Quoting mayor (Reply 238):
The military doesn't answer to the public......not directly at least.

It does. The U.S. military acts in the name of the U.S. government, which is elected by the voting public in the U.S. If it does not, we're talking about a military junta.

Try reading what I said........................"not directly at least" (emphasis mine)
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:55 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 240):
But no where does "John Q. Public" fall in that chain. THAT was my point.

John Q Public foots the bill and the war is waged in his name. Were he to withdraw financing, the hostilities would cease immediately. If poor old John is terminated out of the loop, we have a military junta left.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 240):

Well I appreciate you telling the US how their own chain of command works, but you might want to stick to matter's regarding Finland?

Well sir, your chopper is down, this is an international open forum, and fyi I tend to get worked up on those comments rather than quit, in case that was your intention.

Quoting DXing (Reply 241):
Which is entirely correct and as it should be. Our military does not live in it's own bubble responsible to no one.

Based on this incident yes it does, and is doing their utmost to prevent the public from getting in.

[Edited 2010-04-08 10:00:06]
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:58 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 242):
I have to confess to being too busy to follow up whether the AK47s were real or were the required ones for the action to have been legit.

There is only one, and it is clearly visible on the video. It is a folding stock AK with a 30 round banana clip.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:05 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 245):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 242):
I have to confess to being too busy to follow up whether the AK47s were real or were the required ones for the action to have been legit.

There is only one, and it is clearly visible on the video. It is a folding stock AK with a 30 round banana clip.

???Not much of an ambush with one AK47????? As others have said, standard equipment for pedestrians in Baghdad??
 
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:10 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 244):
Based on this incident yes it does, and is doing their utmost to prevent the public from getting in.

The incident was already reported BY Reuters, in 2007. Why is it necessary to bring this video out, now, unless to just stir the pot some more.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 244):
John Q Public foots the bill and the war is waged in his name. Were he to withdraw financing, the hostilities would cease immediately. If poor old John is terminated out of the loop, we have a military junta left.

Exactly how does John Q. Public withdraw financing? I would really like to know. As I said before, the American citizen does not have DIRECT control over the military...........only thru their Representatives, Senators and the President. The Constitution is specifically set up so we don't have a "military junta".

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 239):
The U.S. military acts in the name of the U.S. government, which is elected by the voting public in the U.S.

This statement of yours just confirms what I said........they have no DIRECT control over the military. We leave that to our elected officials.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:18 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 247):
We leave that to our elected officials.

Oh, you seem to live in a democracy -- was that news to you?

Quoting mayor (Reply 247):
The incident was already reported BY Reuters, in 2007. Why is it necessary to bring this video out, now, unless to just stir the pot some more.

Probably was, as their crew was lost. However, the video we have seen here is officially "lost", and it remains to be seen if it will ever be released. Any explanation on why such a "clean and honest mistake" would need to be covered up?
 
dxing
Posts: 5859
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:34 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 244):
Based on this incident yes it does, and is doing their utmost to prevent the public from getting in.
Quoting mayor (Reply 247):
The incident was already reported BY Reuters, in 2007. Why is it necessary to bring this video out, now, unless to just stir the pot some more.

  

To some (even here on this thread) the video is represenative of every action undertaken by every soldier that ever stepped foot in Iraq or Afghanistan. No reason is too small not to criticize. I agree with UH60 that the pilots IC communications should be kept private. Even so, an FOA request was made and it was granted as the video itself is proof of so your accusation that they went to the utmost to keep the public from seeing it is flat out incorrect.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 246):
???Not much of an ambush with one AK47????? As others have said, standard equipment for pedestrians in Baghdad??.


No, they did not say that AK47's were standard equipment for pedestrians. It was said that Iraqis are allowed to own guns and it was also pointed out at the same time that you do not see them walking around the city with weapons in hand, especially back then. See reply #179.

That being settled. One is enough, especially if the ground units in the area had been engaged by one prior to the helicopters arrival. The RPG would not be legal no matter what and is also good enough reason to engage.
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