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dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:36 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 248):
Oh, you seem to live in a democracy -- was that news to you?

Yes it would be. That's because we live in a represenative democracy, or is the distinction lost on you?
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 248):
Oh, you seem to live in a democracy -- was that news to you?

No, but apparently, it was news to you. I have stated, time and again, that the U.S. taxpayer have no direct control over the U.S. military and I have explained how it works, not because I don't know, but, because you apparently do not know what the word "direct" means.

I would doubt if the citizens in Finland have direct, day to day, control over their military, do they?

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 248):
Any explanation on why such a "clean and honest mistake" would need to be covered up?

Look, I'll try ask this again, so even you can figure it out. WHY, if this has already been reported in the press, do you consider it a "cover up"? I don't understand the logic, here.....if there is any.  
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 239):

Dare you ever remove your "U.S. Army" specs?

I don't have any......I was in the USAF
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:19 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 249):
Even so, an FOA request was made and it was granted as the video itself is proof of so your accusation that they went to the utmost to keep the public from seeing it is flat out incorrect.

No this video is leaked, it has never been officially released. Did you really miss this crucial fact?

Reuters had tried for two and a half years through the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the Iraq video, to no avail. WikiLeaks, as always, refuses to say how it obtained the video, and credits only “our courageous source.”
www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/world/07wikileaks.html

The White House on Tuesday described leaked and graphic video of a US helicopter strike in Baghdad three years ago which killed two Reuters employees and others as "tragic."But President Barack Obama's spokesman Robert Gibbs stressed after the previously classified video was released by whistleblower website WikiLeaks that US forces in war zones take pains to avoid civilian casualties.
(bullfax.com)


Perhaps you could, just once, say you were wrong?

Quoting mayor (Reply 251):

Look, I'll try ask this again, so even you can figure it out. WHY, if this has already been reported in the press, do you consider it a "cover up"? I don't understand the logic, here.....if there is any.

Kindly see above what I wrote to DX for a better understanding of the facts.

Quoting mayor (Reply 251):
I would doubt if the citizens in Finland have direct, day to day, control over their military, do they?

We have the President who is the formal head of command, and the Parliament with the Cabinet that will handle the decisions of going to war and funding it in a democratic way. Just like you in fact.
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:43 pm

I had a look on ARSSE, the discussion forum related to the British Army to see what military people there were posting on this incident. There was a lot of "if you haven't been there..." and "shit happens" posts just like here but many were more critical of what apparently took place.

One of the members "PoisonDwarf" posted this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovRTt0hAPk as a satire of how American forces are in danger of being regarded.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:17 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 241):
"Yeah we got one guy crawling around down there but, uh, you know, we got, definitely got something." Right after that you can see the dust kicked up by a new round firing and the second unit says "We're shooting some more"

Without Crazy Horse 19 gun video, it's impossible to know what he was looking at. But all of his rounds fired land north of the electrical pole, while the injured man is 10m south of the electrical pole. So whether he was shooting at that guy, I don't know. But if he was, then I'll agree that if he was, he was in the wrong.

Quoting DXing (Reply 241):
No, I don't hear them talk about a coordinated move at all.

At 03:30 Bushmaster tells Hotel that they need to move, now. At 03:41, Hotel tells Bushmaster that he's moving.

...And then as I explained earlier, they go on to link up with Bushmaster, who mounts up, and then moves south from the OP.

Quoting DXing (Reply 241):
Save it. I've had jobs with the airline where I had to listen to 4-5 freqs and talk on the phone and type at the same time so let's just assume we both know what we're doing.

lol well how was I suppose to know? I knew you had served years ago, and that you're a pretty old guy... I just assumed they still used signal flags when you were in. lol
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:24 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 246):
???Not much of an ambush with one AK47????? As others have said, standard equipment for pedestrians in Baghdad??

Well as I explained earlier... as someone who's been there... I don't know where this misconception started from, that everyone running around Baghdad has an AK47! It's Iraq, not Somalia.

The law provided them the right to own a weapon... but that does not mean they were all walking around with them slung over their shoulders. I don't know where that belief stems from, but it's flat out wrong.

In 2007, even though it was the height of the violence, it was not - I repeat was not common for groups to walk around with RPGs, let alone AK-47s. When you saw this, it was something to take immediate alarm towards. Now you can believe me or not, but there you have it.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Acheron
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:55 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 233):
Or would the defenders of the actions put themselves in the position of the relatives, would you be OK with say a Russian helicopter that had just done a similar shoot up on them? Fine for me to say, well just following ROE?

Considering the amount of weapons in civilian possession in the US, in case of the unlikely invasion by a foreign force on US soil, I think everyone would pretty much be a fair target of gunships, under the US' ROE.
But then again, Russian's ROE are far less forgiving.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:58 pm

For an example of "spin", have a look how the entry is written in Wikipedia:

Quote:
On the morning of July 12, 2007, two[3] United States Army AH-64 Apache helicopters observed a gathering of men near an open air section of Baghdad. The group included two members of staff from the Reuters news service, Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh[4][5][6][7][8] The helicopter crews reported seeing two individuals with weapons, one carrying an AK-47, and another carrying a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG).[9] The crewmen misidentified the cameras carried by Namir and Saeed as weapons,[9] and believing that the group were Iraqi insurgents requested authorization to engage. Approval was granted and the helicopters fired on the group. Several men were killed, and others wounded.[3]

Notice the subtleties. Reading just this paragraph you would think that the helicopters shot up a completely innocent bunch of journalists.

Quote:
The group included two members of staff from the Reuters news service, Namir Noor-Eldeen and Saeed Chmagh

Who were the others?

Quote:
The helicopter crews reported seeing two individuals with weapons, one carrying an AK-47, and another carrying a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG).

Confirmed true.

Quote:
The crewmen misidentified the cameras carried by Namir and Saeed as weapons,[9] and believing that the group were Iraqi insurgents requested authorization to engage.

Also true. But left unsaid is that you had several men, two of which were carrying cameras misidentified as weapons, PLUS you had a bunch of guys carrying AKs and at least one RPG. The way it's written it sounds like there were no weapons at all.

Let's remember that we had troops in the area, and if an Apache pilot sees people looking round corners and carrying what looks to be weapons and RPGs, I sure hope he wastes them. Innocent people would not be acting like that.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:59 am

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 252):
Perhaps you could, just once, say you were wrong?

I've done it more than once and have no problem with it now. Of course that works both ways, are you ready to admit you don't understand how our government works as you've made hash out of it several threads in a row now?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 254):
Without Crazy Horse 19 gun video, it's impossible to know what he was looking at.

Which is why I maintain I don't think he did anything wrong. I don't think it was the smart play given the man was on the ground and crawling but it's not happening in front of me and years have gone by. Still, it would not have turned into the recruiting tool it will be used for.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 254):
At 03:30 Bushmaster tells Hotel that they need to move, now. At 03:41, Hotel tells Bushmaster that he's moving.

Hotel is with Copperhead (the bradleys) just east of the engagement area the whole time. Bushmaster 7 mounts up and catches up to them as they approach the courtyard. Bushmaster 2-4 departs for places unkown. Bushmaster 2-6 ignores his original orders and took up a blocking position south of the engagement area only to be ordered a second time into the courtyard to help cordon it off. That's the way I hear it on the radios. Not a whole lot of coordination. But again, I'm not there, it was a long time ago, in the end it didn't make any difference as the crazy horse units had settled matters before any of the ground units could get in place to observe. In the aftermath if I would put out one piece of advice to them that would be it. Sometimes it's better to check your fire and reassess with eyes on the ground.
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:48 am

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 252):
We have the President who is the formal head of command, and the Parliament with the Cabinet that will handle the decisions of going to war and funding it in a democratic way. Just like you in fact.

Which is what I'VE been saying all along. U.S. citizens have NO direct control over the U.S. military. They do NOT decide how the money is spent on the military.......that is left up to the individual commands, the Sec of Def, the President and the elected representatives.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:48 am

Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 253):
One of the members "PoisonDwarf" posted this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VovRTt0hAPk as a satire of how American forces are in danger of being regarded.

Put that alongside the book "The good soldiers" then "It's all good".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 257):

Quote:
The helicopter crews reported seeing two individuals with weapons, one carrying an AK-47, and another carrying a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG).

Confirmed true.

Confirmed by whom, on what evidence and from were did you obtain this information. Really, I do not think Mr Dreadnought is a sufficient authority on these matters. A simple affirmation will not suffice.
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:53 am

From
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...1102405_2.html?sid=ST2009091202525

"We're spending $9 billion a month to stay in Iraq, of U.S. dollars," Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) said to Petraeus at one point in the hearings. "My question for you: Is it worth it to us?"

"Well, the national interests that we have in Iraq are substantial," Petraeus said. "An Iraq that is stable and secure, that is not an al-Qaeda sanctuary, is not in the grip of Iranian-supported Shia militia, that is not a bigger humanitarian disaster, that is connected to the global economy, all of these are very important national interests."


Those admirable aims were hardly being furthered by the action shown. It was however entirely consistent with a comment made at about the same time by another less considered person.

Because while the news in Rustamiyah on Sept. 4 was all about three dead soldiers and a fourth who had lost both legs and a fifth who had lost both legs and an arm and most of his other arm, that wasn't the news in the United States. It was about President George W. Bush arriving in Australia, where the deputy prime minister asked him how the war was going and he answered, "We're kicking ass." It was about a Government Accountability Office report that noted the Iraqi government's lack of progress toward self-sustainability, which Democrats seized on as one more reason to get out of Iraq, which Republicans seized on as one more reason Democrats were unpatriotic, which pundits seized on as a chance to go on television and do some screaming.

The Iraqis might never have deserved Saddam but they hardly deserved THAT invasion.
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:06 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 260):
A simple affirmation will not suffice.

I'll back him up on that. You say you cannot access youtube. How convenient since the evidence is plain on the tape.
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baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:48 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 262):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 260):
A simple affirmation will not suffice.

I'll back him up on that. You say you cannot access youtube. How convenient since the evidence is plain on the tape.

There is nothing on my system preventing you from telling me where it is on the Wikileaks video which I can access. And the sountrack of ?5 or 6 individuals with AK47s does not cut it. They are the well known Nikkon AK47s loaded with CCDs.

No wonder there is such a mess, it seems to be impossible to get simple verified information with a proper track on the source.
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:35 am

Quoting DXing (Reply 258):



I've done it more than once and have no problem with it now.

Ok, we're standing by for that "I was wrong regarding the release of said video" transmission from you ... over but not out.

[Edited 2010-04-09 03:47:06]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:53 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 260):
Confirmed by whom, on what evidence and from were did you obtain this information. Really, I do not think Mr Dreadnought is a sufficient authority on these matters. A simple affirmation will not suffice.

You can see it on the tape, and the military reported picking up an RPG from one of the bodies plus other weapons.

Even assuming that they could have recognized the cameras, terrorists have been videotaping their attacks for years for propaganda purposes, and some journalists have managed to meet up and interview them. Just because journalists or cameras were there does not mean that you can't shoot them.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
eaa3
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:56 pm

I think that what we should learn from this is that the ROE needs to changed. There needs to be some sort of positive identification of enemies from the ground. Also it should be made clear that you can not attack people who come to the scene to help out the victims.
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:47 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 263):
There is nothing on my system preventing you from telling me where it is on the Wikileaks video which I can access.

Already done long ago.

Quoting DXing (Reply 190):
Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 10):
No RPG - what the pilot was claiming was an RPG was a camera with a telephoto lens

Negative. At 06:00:00-06:00:05 you can clearly see the man with the RPG and the man with the automatic weapon to his right. Before that, my eyes are bad, but those helicopter pilots must be worse because those are unmistakably cameras.
You replied in post #199 and I responded in #226:

Quoting DXing (Reply 226):
Where ARE the AK47s on the video, not the reports about them, where are the identifiable images to show this is an armed band?

Look at 06:00:00 to 06:00:05 on the helicopter video time stamp. The RPG is clearly visible as is the AK-47 the man to his right is holding. The two guys with cameras are out of frame at that time.

Then you said:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 233):
Thanks for the inf, but I presume that was a Utube link and now I cannot get back into them.

On the Wikileaks video in the OP's link you can clearly see a man in a striped shirt with an autmatic weapon in his hand at the 3:40 mark of the youtube video. At 3:44 the man to his left silhouettes the RPG. The two identified news cameramen are not in those frames or near those men at that time.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 263):
No wonder there is such a mess, it seems to be impossible to get simple verified information with a proper track on the source.

Actually it's extremely easy when you just watch the video. But when you first say you can't and then claim that you have heard the soundtrack, well that is a bit confusing.
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dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:49 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 264):
Ok, we're standing by for that "I was wrong regarding the release of said video" transmission from you ... over but not out.

As you noted I already said I was wrong....now, we're waiting for you to admit you don't know how our government really works and have botched trying to explain to it's own citizens several times now.
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baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:51 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 265):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 260):
Confirmed by whom, on what evidence and from were did you obtain this information. Really, I do not think Mr Dreadnought is a sufficient authority on these matters. A simple affirmation will not suffice.

You can see it on the tape, and the military reported picking up an RPG from one of the bodies plus other weapons.

In view of the fact that the incident was hushed up to put it politely, how would you classify the reliability of that as evidence on a scale of 1 (not bloody likely) to 10 (there it is)?

I can see cameras - or maybe one camera and one tripod - on the tape, but so far I have not seen either an AK47 or an RPG. I am not saying they are not there, just I have not seen them.
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:04 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 269):
In view of the fact that the incident was hushed up to put it politely, how would you classify the reliability of that as evidence on a scale of 1 (not bloody likely) to 10 (there it is)?

10 because they are right there and completely visible on the tape, or do you think the Army somehow doctored the tape to put the weapons in their hands?  

Quoting Baroque (Reply 269):
I can see cameras - or maybe one camera and one tripod - on the tape, but so far I have not seen either an AK47 or an RPG. I am not saying they are not there, just I have not seen them.

Only through the eyes of a Utopian.    The two cameramen are identified by name. If it was a camera and tripod in the hands of the other two individuals don't you think Wikileaks would have identified that the same way? Why wouldn't they to prove their accusation that this was just downright murder? Even the title should tell you something on how they view those two items.
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mayor
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:54 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 266):
There needs to be some sort of positive identification of enemies from the ground.

And, oh great one, just how would you do that in a war where the enemy doesn't wear any sort of discernible uniform?  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:59 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 268):
As you noted I already said I was wrong

You said you had been wrong earlier, but specifically not this time. So, when you wrote:

Quoting DXing (Reply 249):
Even so, an FOA request was made and it was granted as the video itself is proof of so your accusation that they went to the utmost to keep the public from seeing it is flat out incorrect

.. then what you call "a flat out incorrect accusation" from my side was is fact correct -- is that your final message here?
 
baroque
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:10 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 270):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 269):
In view of the fact that the incident was hushed up to put it politely, how would you classify the reliability of that as evidence on a scale of 1 (not bloody likely) to 10 (there it is)?

10 because they are right there and completely visible on the tape, or do you think the Army somehow doctored the tape to put the weapons in their hands?

Well while you are rolling around on the floor here are the frames you listed. That might be a bit more definitive than saying what you can see on a recording that you failed to define. (BTW I always said I could see the WIkileaks and it appears you fail to notice it has a sound track, but hey, a minor matter.)

First the frame with the automatic. The man on the left is associated with a dark patch about where the middle of an automatic might be. However, it is scant evidence upon which to base an attack.


Now the "RPG". The man on the left of the group appears to be holding something that could be an automatic. Where is the RPG?



A curious thing about the automatic is that it does not seem to leave a shadow, whereas other items leave clear shadows.

If you spent less time mocking those who are trying to follow your arguments and more on writing clearly we might all be further on.

What is clear is that the voice reporting a number of automatics is wrong.

And nobody has answered the question about "is standing around in the road a usual method for insurgents mounting an ambush"?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:23 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 273):
And nobody has answered the question about "is standing around in the road a usual method for insurgents mounting an ambush"?

Well that's not quite the issue if ground units called in air support having already been attacked.

In any case this posting of still images is positively pointless to the discussion - the van attack is one thing most reasonable minds can agree on but nobody could possible expect gunners in a moving helicopter to ID makes/models of weapons from afar, much less identities of civilian reporters caught in the mix.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NAV20
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:59 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 271):
And, oh great one, just how would you do that in a war where the enemy doesn't wear any sort of discernible uniform?

Hesitated to get involved with this thread. The whole thing, to me, just seems to have been one of those ''tragedies' that most of us know will always occur in wars.

But your post 'rang a bell' with me, mayor. My own military experience was limited to the British 'Territorial Army' - specifically, the Royal Artillery. On our occasional trips to 'face' the Russians on the Fulda Gap, I found that my only talent in the military field - that, due to my civilian occupation, I knew more about trigonometry and triangulation than anyone bar the battery commander (and very probably more than HE did) - had value, in the sense that I didn't have to do as much digging as the other guys.

So I found myself doing duty in places called 'Forward Observation Posts.' What bothered me was that, the country being hilly, the infantry had had the sense to establish THEIR positions in places where they had good fields of fire; but the artillery had gone for 'good observation.' The net result being that each of our three 'Observation Posts' (the one we knew that the Russians knew about, the one that we hoped they didn't know about, and the one that most of US didn't know about - the one you weren't allowed to drive up to in a vehicle, or even WALK to - you had to crawl, for fear of leavng tracks).- were up to 300 yards in FRONT of the infantry positions....

I was lucky - I never had to fire (or even 'direct') a shot in anger. And I can look back in 'good humour' on the fact that we did all that we could to 'zero' targets - bridges, river crossings, crossroads etc. - and even, off-duty, shared a cab to go down to drink in the pubs that marked all such places, and be thanked and bought drinks by the Germans who thought that we were there to 'protect' them.......

But I have to think that the Iraq thing was (is?) different. At least, if we'd had to take on the Warsaw Pact lot, both sides would have been wearing uniforms and driving marked vehicles. We''d at least have known for certain that we were shooting at the 'other side.'

My impression - watchmg that utterly sad video - is that, from the point of view of US forces in Iraq, it 'came to pass' that there were only two kinds of Iraqis.

'Terrorists' - or 'Suspected Terrorists'.......

Thankfully, we never needed to get quite THAT desperate in my day........

[Edited 2010-04-09 09:41:50]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
AverageUser
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:01 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 274):
nobody could possible expect gunners in a moving helicopter to ID makes/models of weapons from afar,

You will have a near-perfect ability to stop the motion of the chopper if you want to. Here we have a case where top people with top equipment fail to assess correctly the number of everyday small arms and the number of people carrying them under conditions which were as close to perfect as I could see. But hey, even 747s go down sometimes -- only there'll be an inquiry into the accident and nobody's trying to act as if there were nothing to see.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:08 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 276):
You will have a near-perfect ability to stop the motion of the chopper if you want to.

Find a chopper pilot who will put their crew at risk in that manner for the sake of determining whether a suspected RPG is a camera tripod.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 276):
Here we have a case where top people with top equipment fail to assess correctly the number of everyday small arms and the number of people carrying them under conditions which were as close to perfect as I could see.

Um, not to put too fine a point on it, but this "top equipment" wasn't exactly designed for this type of warfare.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 276):
But hey, even 747s go down sometimes -- only there'll be an inquiry into the accident and nobody's trying to act as if there were nothing to see.

In fairness, can a Finnish citizen acquire any information from the military they wish? Just asking.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dxing
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:19 pm

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 272):
.. then what you call "a flat out incorrect accusation" from my side was is fact correct -- is that your final message here?

Nope, becaue you still have not addressed your complete failure at understanding the relationship of our military to our government, and our type of government and how it represents the people.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 273):
Now the "RPG". The man on the left of the group appears to be holding something that could be an automatic. Where is the RPG?

The man in the striped shirt on the left has an automatic rifle with a folding stock and sling in his right hand. The man on his left has the RPG. It is not loaded and one end is resting on the ground.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 273):
A curious thing about the automatic is that it does not seem to leave a shadow, whereas other items leave clear shadows.

The automatic rifle in striped shirts hand would not cast a shadow as it is pretty evident that he is a big guy and his body shadow blocks the weapons. The RPG is leaning against the man and so is subject to the same effect. The cameras in the identifed camera men/reporters do not cast shadows either for the very same reason.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 273):
If you spent less time mocking those who are trying to follow your arguments and more on writing clearly we might all be further on.

If you spent less time trying to deny the obvious there'd be much less to laugh about.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 273):
And nobody has answered the question about "is standing around in the road a usual method for insurgents mounting an ambush"?

What difference does it make? The Bush master element had reported taking small arms fire and RPG rounds from the general area. Here you have two individuals with the exact weapons the air support was called in to find. The cameramen/reporters picked the wrong day to hang out with the insurgents. The attack on the two individuals with the clearly identifiable weapons was completely justified and within the laws of war.
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AverageUser
Posts: 1824
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:53 pm

Quoting DXing (Reply 278):
Nope,

I ALMOST thought you would have been decent enough -- but in the end you failed to overcome the obstacle called yourself.

So although you said you were were wrong, you were right nevertheless, the reason being that I'm just a Finn and therefore what I say is of a lesser value?

In case you want to clarify something for me -- feel free to do so.

[Edited 2010-04-09 09:56:37]
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:08 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 277):
Find a chopper pilot who will put their crew at risk in that manner for the sake of determining whether a suspected RPG is a camera tripod.

Picture of the suspected RPG:

source

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 277):
In fairness, can a Finnish citizen acquire any information from the military they wish? Just asking.

In fairness as well, can you return to the Freedom of Information requests: "sorry, but we seem to have lost the tape"?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 277):

Um, not to put too fine a point on it, but this "top equipment" wasn't exactly designed for this type of warfare.

Seems neither were the drivers...
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:43 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 275):
'Terrorists' - or 'Suspected Terrorists'.......

Absolutely. After hearing many official policy speeches by the last Admin, Iraq is full of suspected terrorists. Just listen to their strange language. Look at the skin color and religion of the people. Their strange and foreign ways, visible on grainy videotapes such as this, or during our 1991 bombings. Finally, look at Saddam's fashion sense with his military fatigues. This was clear (if amateurish) evidence that Iraq is a terrorist country.

Perhaps I am sounding ridiculous here. But I am only a careful listener and watcher, I did not think of these ideas myself. I did not create the idea that Iraq is terrorist. Somebody else created that idea; I am just highlighting it.
 
AGM100
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:50 pm

Well one thing for sure...the troopers in bushmaster did not need to find out if they were civilians or not. These guys were definatly up to no good ... in the middle of a combat zone with US forces moving into the area they chose to stand around with weapons and peer around a corner obviously looking for US elements?. Put youself into a US ground soldiers position ... you had been fired up recently and you walk around the corner and see 7 or 8 dudes their carrying weapons ?? You pretty much could make the assumption that they were involved and rightly so.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 273):
And nobody has answered the question about "is standing around in the road a usual method for insurgents mounting an ambush"?

No one ever said they were the best trained individuals ......obviously a AH-64 was circling them and I dont see one of them even look up. What do you think a ambush is in Iraq ? Alot of them have been just a guy holding a AK over a wall or out of a window squeezing the trigger. When that happens it is a 4 alarm fire at the squad level .... it is a good tactic for the "insurgence" ... it scares the hell out of guys and usualy slows or stops the patrol . The patrol is vulnerable then to attacks while stopped.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 280):
Picture of the suspected RPG:

Nice Camera !   
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
AverageUser
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Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:23 pm

Stock picture of the smallest (?) member of the RPG family:
Quite discernible even from a distance, I'd think.

 
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keesje
Posts: 13799
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:14 pm

The inhuman muscle talk used by some brainless patriots here is a little disturbing IMO. Imagine if being in the neighborhood of a gun would give a license to kill..

IMO it was mostly an accident. The crew talk / thinking is worrying and firing on civilians helping other wounded civilians is in violation with all TOR's, ROEs, LAWS and decent behavior.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
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RE: Video Leaked Of US Killing 2 Reporters In Iraq

Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:39 am

This thread will be locked for further comments as it has been hijacked by a select few members, who choose to use the forums for off-topic personal messages and insults. Please note that all posts made in this thread, after the thread lock, will be removed for housekeeping purposes only.


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