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Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:57 pm

This is part of the discussion on Israeli forces storming a Gaza aid ship. Part 1 can be found here:

Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship (by Mortyman May 30 2010 in Non Aviation)

Once again, we would like you to read, understand and respect the guidelines outlined in the following post:

Guidelines: Israeli/Palestinian Related Threads (by moderators May 31 2010 in Non Aviation)

In particular, please adhere to forum rules at all times and do not post in these threads unless you are capable of expressing yourself in a civilized manner. Repeat offenders will be suspended or ultimately be banned from the website.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:07 pm

from the previous thread:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 330):
Yes. Israeli oppression helps keep Hamas in power, and having Hamas in power is the justification for Israeli oppression. It's the perfect symbiotic relationship for two groups of extremist lowlifes.

perfect description!

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 328):

For once, show us a legal document in which the legality of the blockade is questioned

show me one where the opossite is stated. No, I don't have one nor do I have the time to look for it, but it can't be legal, at least morally. I don't care if Israel has one excusing everything, but I will never agree to this kind of oppression disguised as sefl defence, not for Israel or anybody else.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 334):
The Gazans could be educating their children and join with the Israelis in growth and industry ...

right, they choose to not do anything ... seriously, you talk about Gaza as if it were Montecarlo ...
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:24 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 1):
right, they choose to not do anything ... seriously, you talk about Gaza as if it were Montecarlo ...


Gazans depends very much on Israel for jobs specially in labourer such as construction. Of course Israel uses that as a tool to put more pressure on them by closing borders, or delaying by hours any passage, some of the closures can extend to days or weeks. As for education, well if there schools are destroyed during a war well at least allow cement and other construction material so school get rebuilt instead of the young ones joining extremists factions.
 
a380us
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:40 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 2):
Gazans depends very much on Israel for jobs specially in labourer such as construction. Of course Israel uses that as a tool to put more pressure on them by closing borders, or delaying by hours any passage, some of the closures can extend to days or weeks. As for education, well if there schools are destroyed during a war well at least allow cement and other construction material so school get rebuilt instead of the young ones joining extremists factions.

But Hamas knows that and therefore uses these schools to launch rockets thinking they are protected. And thats the problem whats the point of rebuilding them if Hamas will just use them to launch rockets at Israel and take kids as hostage. Its not as black and white as send in cement and the such because most of the time it will end up in the hands of terrorists.
 
racko
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:11 pm

Among the dead is a US citizen, killed by 4 shots into the head, according to Turkish officials.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/ameri...aza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848

Henning Mankell, the Swedish author, seems to be quite a coward by the way. According to Spiegel he was approached by several journalists who wanted to hand him their memory cards with videos and pictures of the Israeli attack when they realized that the IDF was confiscating them, hoping his celebrity status might enable him to smuggle them to a country without military censorship. He refused.

And the Israeli Interior Minister wants to revoke the Israeli citizenship of Hanin Zuabi, the Israeli parliamentarian who was on one of the flottila ships:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national...eli-arab-mk-s-citizenship-1.294091

[Edited 2010-06-03 14:16:22]
 
lxa333
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:34 pm

The best solution for americans here supporting the IDF and Israel is to move to Israel and give up their US citizenship in this case, in all seriousness, there were american citizens on that ship injured and dead, how can you put the interests of other countries ahead of fellow citizens giving aid. You're a tool of US interest groups that divide this country if you do. I dont give 2 sh*** about Israel or Palestine if americans are endangered.
 
jfk69
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:42 pm

Quoting LXA333 (Reply 5):
The best solution for americans here supporting the IDF and Israel is to move to Israel and give up their US citizenship in this case, in all seriousness, there were american citizens on that ship injured and dead, how can you put the interests of other countries ahead of fellow citizens giving aid. You're a tool of US interest groups that divide this country if you do. I dont give 2 sh*** about Israel or Palestine if americans are endangered.

Ever hear of Alisa Flatow?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alisa_Flatow

Ever hear of Shoshana Judy Greenbaum??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_bombing

Where was your uproar when these americans were killed by Arab Terrorists?

Exactly, Jewish Blood is OK to spill.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:54 pm

Quoting LXA333 (Reply 5):
how can you put the interests of other countries ahead of fellow citizens giving aid.

Just because someone has the same passport as you have... does it mean you cut him a blank check for whatever stupid "peace" activist provocation he or she engages in?  
By the logic of your post I assume you also - by default - agree with the actions of people like Faisal Shahzad or Nidal Malik Hasan?
 
lxa333
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:04 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 7):
By the logic of your post I assume you also - by default - agree with the actions of people like Faisal Shahzad or Nidal Malik Hasan?

State to me in my post where you see anything that says i support any of those persons, their doings or anything they support.. RESPOND TO THIS.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 6):
Where was your uproar when these americans were killed by Arab Terrorists?

I am against any country or terrorist killing or injuring innocent americans wothout reasoning. I dont remember seeing any of those posts. Why take the offensive against me?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:30 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 4):
And the Israeli Interior Minister wants to revoke the Israeli citizenship of Hanin Zuabi, the Israeli parliamentarian who was on one of the flottila ships:

That's all right, let them (Israel) do it. They have a nack at getting people off side, even there own !

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 7):
Just because someone has the same passport as you have... does it mean you cut him a blank check for whatever stupid "peace" activist provocation he or she engages in?
By the logic of your post I assume you also - by default - agree with the actions of people like Faisal Shahzad or Nidal Malik Hasan?

Why bring other incidents into this discussion ? Isn't the current topic complicated enough to sort out ?

You cant just say that peace activists are all bad. They have the human rights of 1000's of people in Palestine at heart and generally want to do good, in order to achieve this, sometimes you have do highlight injustices that are occurring. Israel is doing this, one one else.

Israel must learn, that the policy of keeping Palestinians living on a knife edge and in 3rd world conditions will do nothing to solve this problem. Israel should be supporting the every day Palestinians, letting aid/food and building materials in and trying at winning him over to use a term, not alienating them further. Otherwise it will just breed more and more hatred towards the Jewish state, not just from the Gazans, but also from around the entire world, which is what is occurring now.

I really cant understand, and so it seems does millions of others, why this is so hard for Israel to comprehend.   
 
AGM100
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:38 pm

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 1):
right, they choose to not do anything ... seriously, you talk about Gaza as if it were Montecarlo ...



You ever been their ? ... I have ..been in Ramala too. Without the violent anti Israeli operators who have hijacked their entire lives the real Palestinian people would probably be doing fine. Farming on their land and living in peace .... that is the truth.

They have been screwed over in big way by the world wide anti semite's who fund the Jihad and prop up the corrupt leadership of the WB and Gaza... all too fight Israel.
 
aviationmaster
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:55 pm

Quoting ramzi (Reply 332):
If there was an army as strong as the IDF then Israel wouldn't exist today. The only thing keeping Israel in existence is its military power.

So you're saying that Israel's enemies are just waiting for Israel to be weakened to the point where they'll stand a chance if they go to war with the IDF? Basically says it all about the intentions in the region. Peace will only prevail if Israel disappears completely.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 1):
No, I don't have one nor do I have the time to look for it, but it can't be legal, at least morally
Quoting ramzi (Reply 332):
I think any sane person can reason that a blockade is not humanely legal. Stop looking for papers to support torture. The blockade is crippling human beings, entire cultures even, nothing justifies that.

I was expecting this very response. Legally and morally are two separate pants. Are we taking about legal or moral terms? I am questioning you solely on legal terms here, not moral ones. Don't go switching back and forth because you cannot answer the legal question.

Therefore my question stays:

Please be so kind to show us a legal document in which the legality of the blockade is questioned.

Quoting LXA333 (Reply 8):

I am against any country or terrorist killing or injuring innocent americans wothout reasoning.

Look at it this way:
Your fellow innocent American activists participated in a media stunt disguised as a humanitarian mission with one sole goal: To instigate an Israeli response which would lead to global uproar and condemnation.
Was this achieved? Yes. Now with the ways turned out and people being p*ssed off on both sides, especially on the anti-Israel front, we might have just seen the creation of another generation of terrorists and Palestinian "freedom" fighters, therefore also endangering American lives and values.
 
AutothrustBlue
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:19 pm

Both sides are at fault.

1.) The activists for sailing straight to Israel in the first place. The IDF is excellently trained, and mean serious business; the activists should have expected sh*t to hit the fan, and decided against providing aid. Additionally, it blows my mind to hear of people bringing their children on board, where they could have been killed in the line of fire. It's great that they want to help others, but providing aid would be safer in the hands of governments. And fighting the IDF by whatever means wasn't the greatest idea either, as it gave the forces a reason to open fire.

2.) IDF could have waited until the flotilla left international waters, and entered their waters; and then proceed searching the boat. Israel has all the right in the world to inspect ships entering their county: what's wrong with searching safely away from land, but within your own waters?

Due to the actions of both sides, 9 people are dead, many more injured, many many more angry, diplomatic ties among several countries are about to go up in flames, and the radicals and politicians of several of the involved countries are exacerbating the situation. What a mess.  
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:35 pm

Quoting AutothrustBlue (Reply 12):
2.) IDF could have waited until the flotilla left international waters, and entered their waters; and then proceed searching the boat. Israel has all the right in the world to inspect ships entering their county: what's wrong with searching safely away from land, but within your own waters?

Isn't part of the problem the fact that it is not Israels waters, but in fact Palestinian Waters (or at least should be)

Look at this map, it shows you in a spectacular way, just how much land has been taken from the Palestinians since 1947.
It's truly shocking that the world has stood by and watched Israel slowly slowly take more and more land away.
Where do they think the Palestinians are going to wined up living ??

The Palestinians will continue to fight back in every way they can. This is a VERY unjust situation and is made VERY clear by the map. This point is indisputable.

It's beyond me, I really can't fathom how the Israeli Government thinks this will all pan out, I really can't  http://www.leedspsc.org.uk/wp-conten...s/2009/11/israel-palestine-map.jpg
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:19 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
You cant just say that peace activists are all bad. They have the human rights of 1000's of people in Palestine at heart and generally want to do good, in order to achieve this, sometimes you have do highlight injustices that are occurring. Israel is doing this, one one else.

Does that come close to justify them beating the crap out of the IDF troops that were already on the ground defenseless? When that happened to Rodney King everyone went ape (rightfully) against the people with the clubs. But if the guy on the ground is an Israeli, it's perfectly fine, is that it?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:43 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Does that come close to justify them beating the crap out of the IDF troops that were already on the ground defenseless? When that happened to Rodney King everyone went ape (rightfully) against the people with the clubs. But if the guy on the ground is an Israeli, it's perfectly fine, is that it?

They should not have been on the ship in the first time
How can an attacking elite force be on the ground defenceless, lack of planning, bad information, or maybe they are vulneble after all?

You give the Israeli the right to defend themselves, that is your justification for the blockade, then you should give the same right to the people on the ship to defend themselves against an air and sea assault.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:02 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 15):
You give the Israeli the right to defend themselves, that is your justification for the blockade, then you should give the same right to the people on the ship to defend themselves against an air and sea assault.

They were attempting to breach a legal blockade. In my opinion, the IDF had the right to torpedo the ships and send them to the bottom. Instead they tried to be civilized. It worked on 5 of the 6 ships which diverted to an Israeli port.

By the way, did you hear that Hamas has rejected the delivery of the "aid" that came in aboard the flotilla? Kinda puts to bed the whole idea that the flotilla was intended simply to help the people of Gaza.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...israel.palestinians.aid/index.html

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 15):
You give the Israeli the right to defend themselves, that is your justification for the blockade, then you should give the same right to the people on the ship to defend themselves against an air and sea assault.

Do you agree or not that when somebody is defenseless, on the ground, and surrounded by a dozen guys with bats and axe handles, you stop beating him?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:09 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Does that come close to justify them beating the crap out of the IDF troops that were already on the ground defenseless? When that happened to Rodney King everyone went ape (rightfully) against the people with the clubs. But if the guy on the ground is an Israeli, it's perfectly fine, is that it?

Nothing justify s violence at all, but you have to admit, that the IDF, boarded these ships in international waters, illegally !

If someone tried to enter your home, car whatever illegally, than you have every right to protect yourself and your property am I correct ? they were just doing what anyone else in that position would do.

The IDF is/was naive in the extreme if they thought they could just board the vessels, then sit down and have a cup of tea with them, what did they think was going to happen, I mean really. And. others in this thread have posted that the IDF is a revered, well trained machine.... I don't think so, well not in the case anyway.

This must be one of the most embarrassing debacles that they IDF, and the world, have ever witnessed !

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
They were attempting to breach a legal blockade.

A blockade that is illegal, pure and simple!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Do you agree or not that when somebody is defenseless, on the ground, and surrounded by a dozen guys with bats and axe handles, you stop beating him?

But they weren't defenseless were they, they were heavily armed with all sorts of weaponry.

Please tell the truth !  

[Edited 2010-06-03 18:18:00]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:18 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):

Nothing justify s violence at all, but you have to admit, that the IDF, boarded these ships in international waters, illegally !

As was repeated in the other thread (and ignored), International law recognizes the legitimate existence of blockades, and allows for their enforcement by boardings and even (as a last resort) attacks, such as by torpedo. Blockades are not illegal.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
If someone tried to enter your home, car whatever illegally, than you have every right to protect yourself and your property am I correct ? they were just doing what anyone else in that position would do.

That's like saying a burglar attempting to break into your house has the right to protect himself by assaulting you when you challenge him.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
A blockade that is illegal, pure and simple!

Based on what law?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
But they weren't defenseless were they, they were heavily armed with all sorts of weaponry.

Sidearms only, which were holstered when they boarded.
 
racko
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:22 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
By the way, did you hear that Hamas has rejected the delivery of the "aid" that came in aboard the flotilla? Kinda puts to bed the whole idea that the flotilla was intended simply to help the people of Gaza.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/....html

This article conveniently leaves out the fact that Israel isn't delivering all the aid that was on the ships but rather cherry-picks what it considers aid and what terrorist equipment.

Here's a partial list of goods banned from entering Gaza, assembled by the Israeli NGO Gisha.

sage
cardamom
cumin
coriander
ginger
jam
halva
vinegar
nutmeg
chocolate
fruit preserves
seeds and nuts
biscuits and sweets
potato chips
gas for soft drinks
dried fruit
fresh meat
plaster
tar
wood for construction
cement
iron
glucose
industrial salt
plastic/glass/metal containers
industrial margarine
tarpaulin sheets for huts
fabric (for clothing)
flavor and smell enhancers
fishing rods
various fishing nets
buoys
ropes for fishing
nylon nets for greenhouses
hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries
spare parts for tractors
dairies for cowsheds
irrigation pipe systems
ropes to tie greenhouses
planters for saplings
heaters for chicken farms
musical instruments
size A4 paper
writing implements
notebooks
newspapers
toys
razors
sewing machines and spare parts
heaters
horses
donkeys
goats
cattle
chicks
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:26 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
As was repeated in the other thread (and ignored), International law recognizes the legitimate existence of blockades, and allows for their enforcement by boardings and even (as a last resort) attacks, such as by torpedo. Blockades are not illegal.

Yes, but NOT in international waters!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
That's like saying a burglar attempting to break into your house has the right to protect himself by assaulting you when you challenge him.

Well he dose and that been proven many times before in the courts, when home owners have been over zealous in the protection of property and pushed it just to far with the perpetrator/burglar. The law is a funny thing, it can turn against you very quickly !!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Based on what law?

International law
Tell me what law you base it's legality on ?



Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Sidearms only, which were holstered when they boarded.

What about the stun granades, tasers etc.... Do I go on?

Quoting racko (Reply 19):
This article conveniently leaves out the fact that Israel isn't delivering all the aid that was on the ships but rather cherry-picks what it considers aid and what terrorist equipment.

Funny how they always manage to leave something out !!
 
racko
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:26 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
But they weren't defenseless were they, they were heavily armed with all sorts of weaponry.

Sidearms only, which were holstered when they boarded.

Says the IDF. The passengers of the ships disagree. There's no chance of proving or disproving their claim because the IDF has seized all electronic devices and refuses to give them back.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:55 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
Yes, but NOT in international waters!
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
International law

Helsinki Accords:

5.2.10 Blockade
Blockade, i.e. the interdiction of all or certain maritime traffic coming from or going to a port or coast of a
belligerent, is a legitimate method of naval warfare. In order to be valid, the blockade must be declared ,
notified to belligerent and neutral States, effective and applied impartially to ships of all States. A blockade
may not bar access to neutral ports or coasts. Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable
grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist
capture, they may be attacked.

And remember, by "Attacked", they mean sunk.

Do you see anything about International waters being a safe haven? If anything it's the opposite.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):

What about the stun granades, tasers etc.... Do I go on?

Non-lethal weapons, which were initially not used.

Quoting racko (Reply 21):
Says the IDF. The passengers of the ships disagree. There's no chance of proving or disproving their claim because the IDF has seized all electronic devices and refuses to give them back.

As if you expect the passengers to be impartial...

Watch the tape. You see no weapons (apart from clubs and chairs), then you seen the IDF using paintguns, and finally after nearly a minute you finally see pistols.
 
BMI727
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:55 am

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 6):
Where was your uproar when these americans were killed by Arab Terrorists?

There are two roars worth of uproar going on right now, if you didn't notice.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 6):
Exactly, Jewish Blood is OK to spill

Nobody ever said that.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
International law

International law is a facade and gentlemen's agreement at best. Final sovereignty will always lie with individual states.
 
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EZEIZA
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:55 am

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 11):
I am questioning you solely on legal terms here, not moral ones. Don't go switching back and forth because you cannot answer the legal question.

can you? what piece of paper legalises all this? honest question ..
 
racko
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:16 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):

As if you expect the passengers to be impartial...

Watch the tape. You see no weapons (apart from clubs and chairs), then you seen the IDF using paintguns, and finally after nearly a minute you finally see pistols.

I expect neither the IDF nor the passengers to be impartial. There were journalists on the ships though.

The video released by the IDF is 1 minute long and even in that minute skips several times, with the timestamps conveniently blurred out. Neither do we know what actually happened before the video starts, nor do we know what happened in the unkown amount time that the videos skip, but I'm guessing the IDF had a reason for skipping those parts.

Again, why have they seized all the videos recorded by journalists and refuse to give them back? Why didn't they at least release an unedited version of their video?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:26 am

Quoting racko (Reply 25):

I expect neither the IDF nor the passengers to be impartial. There were journalists on the ships though.

The only journalists invited or allowed aboard were those who could be counted on to be very one-sided.

Quoting racko (Reply 25):

Again, why have they seized all the videos recorded by journalists and refuse to give them back? Why didn't they at least release an unedited version of their video?

Like you said - editing can say a lot.

I'm pretty sure that the crew did not know that such clear night-vision film was being taken by the Israelis. Had the films not been made, all we would have known was that 'unarmed' crew were shot, and Israel would look really bad - to the point that the pressure to abandon the blockade would have been irresistible. It looks like that was the plan all along according to the crew's declarations before the start of the voyage. They WANTED the Israelis to shoot them, and were willing to do everything possible to encourage them to do it.

But the film speaks for itself. You may complain about the editing, but you cannot deny that it clearly shows a viscous and deadly attack on men who were not threatening them. This is a lesson for the Israelis - have video cameras everywhere when dealing with terrorists and/or their sympathizers.
 
ramzi
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:24 am

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 11):

So you're saying that Israel's enemies are just waiting for Israel to be weakened to the point where they'll stand a chance if they go to war with the IDF? Basically says it all about the intentions in the region. Peace will only prevail if Israel disappears completely.

No. I am saying the reason Israel can do what it does is because there is no one to stand up to it. When someone can they will be forced to sit home. The most pathetic solution to the Middle East issue is the existence of someone who can tell Israel if you kill more people we will hurt you inhumanly. Israel will have to stop. Of course no violence will take place, just threats. And I hate the thought that this seems to be the only solution because Israel has ignored the worlds and their requests, all the way to the US.
 
baroque
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:41 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Quoting racko (Reply 4):
And the Israeli Interior Minister wants to revoke the Israeli citizenship of Hanin Zuabi, the Israeli parliamentarian who was on one of the flottila ships:

That's all right, let them (Israel) do it. They have a nack at getting people off side, even there own !

As it appears that Israel is willing to undertake acts of war on the high seas against Australian citizens maybe it is about time for Gov Aus to insist that folk choose either to be Australian citizens OR Israeli, but not both. This is a privilege that has been sadly abused.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
There are two roars worth of uproar going on right now, if you didn't notice.

Funny he did not list the King David Hotel or the British Sergeants. Wonder why!!!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:15 am

Helsinki Accords:

5.2.10 Blockade
Blockade, i.e. the interdiction of all or certain maritime traffic coming from or going to a port or coast of a
belligerent, is a legitimate method of naval warfare. In order to be valid, the blockade must be declared ,
notified to belligerent and neutral States, effective and applied impartially to ships of all States. A blockade
may not bar access to neutral ports or coasts. Neutral vessels believed on reasonable and probable
grounds to be breaching a blockade may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly resist
capture, they may be attacked.

And remember, by "Attacked", they mean sunk.

Do you see anything about International waters being a safe haven? If anything it's the opposite.
[/quote]

This article makes things somewhat clearer, and asks some very pointed questions about the legitimacy of the "blockade". and the overall effectiveness of this blockade operation itself.
The article appears to be true, apart from the last paragraph, which states that Israel will now let this "Aid" in. latest media reports have since said this is false and NOT TRUE, as stated in reply 19.

http://israelpalestineblogs.com/2010...an-is-israels-gaza-blockade-legal/

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The only journalists invited or allowed aboard were those who could be counted on to be very one-sided.

Sweeping statement afraid !!
You can call the other journos biased, for I don't know them but the Australian one's, happen to be VERY well respected for the fairness in there reporting of articles in the press.

Quoting ramzi (Reply 27):
all the way to the US.

And let's not forget about the UN !

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Quoting racko (Reply 4):
And the Israeli Interior Minister wants to revoke the Israeli citizenship of Hanin Zuabi, the Israeli parliamentarian who was on one of the flottila ships:

That's all right, let them (Israel) do it. They have a nack at getting people off side, even there own !

As it appears that Israel is willing to undertake acts of war on the high seas against Australian citizens maybe it is about time for Gov Aus to insist that folk choose either to be Australian citizens OR Israeli, but not both. This is a privilege that has been sadly abused.

Very good point indeed, Baroque.   

[Edited 2010-06-03 21:17:33]
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:42 am

Theoretically due to the oil spill, but he owes BP a fair bit for saving the embarrassment that the Indonesian part of the leg could have been. I presume the Indonesia part of the trip has gone too but Indonesia has yet to react.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/04/2918578.htm

Obama cancels trip to Australia

By online political correspondent Emma Rodgers

Posted 14 minutes ago
US president Barack Obama

Mr Obama was due to travel to Australia and Indonesia some time this month (White House: Pete Souza, file photo)

US president Barack Obama has formally cancelled his planned visit to Australia.

Mr Obama has spoken to Prime Minister Kevin Rudd to tell him of his decision.

Mr Obama was due to travel to Australia and Indonesia some time this month in his first official visit as president.


Had there not been an oil spill, I think there might have been a need to find something as the US reaction to the massacre does not seem to put Obama in a good light. I gather his statue has had to be removed from public view near his school.

As they say, these things have consequences.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:46 am

Jakarta Post has in the PAPER VERSION - but the link does not work - the following headline

Obama could face Israel heat — if he comes

[Edited 2010-06-03 21:47:17]
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:40 am

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2917661.htm
Gaza: Israel's Vietnam?

[i] listen now | download audio

Israel's raid on the flotilla of ships carrying pro-Palestinian activists, has once again focused global attention on its blockade of Gaza. Has the siege become, as many on both sides of the battle suggest, a liability - unpopular, politically costly and ultimately pointless?

Guests

Dr Hannan Ashrawi
Author and Advocate for Palestinian rights

Gideon Levy
Award winning journalist and columnist with the newspaper, Haaretz


Comment from Ashrawi when asked about Biden's statement about there being no daylight between the US and Israel:

"then they are both in the dark"

Worth listening to for those who have an open mind.
 
TK739ER
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:56 am

RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:55 am

Quote:
The Turkish government playing to the Jihad tune?

No, they don't, they don't need to.

Quote:
is their a election coming up again ? Must be.

No not another 2 years.

Quote:
Let the Islamists take power in Turkey and set them back to the 7th century as well

Isn't that some of our western friends want when they were suggesting a "Soft Islamist" party and regime for Turkey??
To answer your question, don't worry that will never happen. Period.

Quote:
they don't have the money that the gulf oil nations do

You'll never know that 
Quote:
they cant hide behind big shiny buildings and A380 VIP aircraft

Buildings could be torn down and airplanes could be grounded when the right time comes and Turks are smart enough to know that.

Quote:
They will be torn apart by the radical Islamic wing and the country will be devastated.

Wouldn't that make Israelis so happy these days??   

Quote:
they have blood on their hands too

Who doesn't??

Quote:
just like they planned it.

No they did NOT plan it.

Quote:
People seem to have a stereotype of Greek/Turkish relations , yes there are problems with Aegean and Cyprus but I have Turkish/ Turkish Cypriot friends and to be honest I discuss the politics more on here then I do with them, we are good friends and couldnt care when we are together and its rarely mentioned unless there is something in the news. I find that people on here with non Turkish/ non Greek backgrounds make more of a deal about it bar some ex pats who may like to stir the pot but they are easily identified. One of my best friends is from Turkey and even if relations got bad we wouldnt change.

The Greeks and Turks on the flotilla obviously thought the same too

And AMEN to that.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:51 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
But the film speaks for itself. You may complain about the editing, but you cannot deny that it clearly shows a viscous and deadly attack on men who were not threatening them. This is a lesson for the Israelis - have video cameras everywhere when dealing with terrorists and/or their sympathizers


No it does not. for the film to speak for itself it should not be edited. The world wants the truth not the IDF version of it.
They can have hundreds of cameras but if they start editing then what purpose will they serve?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
By the way, did you hear that Hamas has rejected the delivery of the "aid" that came in aboard the flotilla?


Edited again, well we are used to that, the truth here is that Hamas refused to allow the aid in until all activists were released and all the aid that were on the ships to be delivered.
And when does a blockade becomes a way to starve people, honestly Dreadnought to you consider the list in posting 19 to be legal?
 
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afterburner
Posts: 1467
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:54 am

Bülent Yıldırım, chairman of the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief (IHH), the charity organization that organized the flotilla, said that activists on board the ship had rushed some of the Israeli soldiers and snatched their weapons, but had thrown them overboard without using them. He also said an Indonesian doctor was shot in the stomach as he helped a wounded Israeli soldier.

The complete story: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0603/breaking24.html .
 
racko
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:05 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The only journalists invited or allowed aboard were those who could be counted on to be very one-sided.

What do you base this on? There a was journalist of Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung aboard, one of Germany's biggest newspapers, well respected and conservative. He actually wrote very balanced articles about the Flotilla before the attack.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
But the film speaks for itself. You may complain about the editing, but you cannot deny that it clearly shows a viscous and deadly attack on men who were not threatening them.

I disagree. The passengers claim the IDF shot gas and stun grenades from the helicopters onto the ship before the soldier repelled down onto the ship, then the activists to disarm the soldiers and throw their guns off the ship which is supposed to be when the IDF started shooting people.

Now the video doesn't show what happened before the soldiers repelled down, so no way to judge if the grenade attacks are true or false.

When the first soldier comes down he appears to be wrestled to the ground, then a small object is thrown off the ship (0:27). Then soldiers 2 and 3 come down with a 4th appearing on the rope. Then the video skips and suddenly all hell breaks loose. What happened in that skipped part the caused the situation to become so violent all of a sudden? I don't know, but the IDF hiding it could lead to suspicions.
 
tu204
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:39 am

I stayed out long enough.
I am not even touching the whole of the Israel/Palestine dispute here. Just this incident. This is how I see it:
Armed pirates attacked and boarded an unarmed civilian ship carrying non-military cargo in international waters. The civilians, using anything they could get their hands on attacked the pirates that boarded their ship. The pirates respondedwith fire. After a brief struggle, several dead and injured civilians the pirates were in control and sailed the ship to their port
 
aviationmaster
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Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:46 am

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 24):
can you? what piece of paper legalises all this? honest question ..

You're just answering my question with another question because you cannot come up with a legal article which deems the blockade illegal. I already showed you the Helsinki Accords which you refuse to acknowledge.

Quoting racko (Reply 36):
The passengers claim the IDF shot gas and stun grenades from the helicopters onto the ship before the soldier repelled down onto the ship

So it appears that the IDF was indeed implementing riot control measures. Just proves that their intentions wasn't to kill anyone on board. Gas and stun grenades are NOT lethal weapons.

Quoting racko (Reply 36):
then the activists to disarm the soldiers and throw their guns off the ship which is supposed to be when the IDF started shooting people.

Again, that's the outcome if you are stupid enough to pick a fight with an IDF commando. From the way they were attacking the IDF soldiers, the Israeli's wouldn't have left the ship alive if their weapons had been thrown overboard.

Also the way the IDF soldiers proceeded in the operation seems to indicate them following some type of Rules of Engagement.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 17):
If someone tried to enter your home, car whatever illegally, than you have every right to protect yourself and your property am I correct ? they were just doing what anyone else in that position would do.

Anyone, really? That's why five of the six ships cooperated with the IDF instead of trying to pick a fight with them.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:41 am

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 38):
So it appears that the IDF was indeed implementing riot control measures. Just proves that their intentions wasn't to kill anyone on board. Gas and stun grenades are NOT lethal weapons.

Why would they need to do that, riot control measures, sound like they were looking for confrontation?
And as for saying gas and stun grenades are not lethal, that may well be, but they are violent means, and provoking to say the least.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 38):
Again, that's the outcome if you are stupid enough to pick a fight with an IDF commando. From the way they were attacking the IDF soldiers, the Israeli's wouldn't have left the ship alive if their weapons had been thrown overboard.

Same can be said for the IDF, if your stupid enough to board a ship in such a violent manner, expect the consequence, as I said in an earlier post, they didn't just drop in for tea did they !
 
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par13del
Posts: 10993
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:29 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 37):
I am not even touching the whole of the Israel/Palestine dispute here. Just this incident. This is how I see it:

Unfortunately you cannot, the incident could only happen because of an ongoing conflict, it was not a random act of mercy leading to a planned act of violence, it take two hands to clap.

I did not read the earlier versions, emotions usually run high, what I am missing in this whole issue is the failure of the UN and how they have gotton off so lightly and not held accountable, where was their protest before the incident. There is a conflict taking place between Israel and the current leaders of the Gaza Strip, it is a shooting conflict, whatever side of the issue one supports, did anyone expect the flotilla to simply sail into Gaza free and unfettered?

The UN is in Israel, they are monitoring the borders and shipments into Gaza, when did they become agents of Israel that Peace Activist and other UN members cannot trust them to deliver humanitarian aid.

Why did the UN not publicly pressure the Peace Activist to deliver the aid to a UN port for their distribution, why not Egypt, the aid is the issue right?

Why did the UN not ask member nations to intercept the flotilla before the Israelis to prevent an incident?

In my book the UN failed and should be blamed as the legitimate third international party who did not do as much as they could to prevent a conflict, this is what the body was created for, they had the ability to remove the "grandstanding" component and ensure that the humanitarian aid was delivered in short order, we constantly hear how bad the situation is and the vital supplies that are needed, what point was the UN trying to make by not doing more to prevent this confrontation? How about the governments that sanctioned and allowed this flotilla, were they also playing the UN, we have seen governments restrict the movement of their citizens on numerous occasions for whatever reasons they deem important, what did they and the UN expect to happen?
 
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EZEIZA
Posts: 4421
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:42 pm

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 38):
You're just answering my question with another question because you cannot come up with a legal article which deems the blockade illegal. I already showed you the Helsinki Accords which you refuse to acknowledge.

i already told you I don't have a piece of paper, and asked if you had one. the Helisnki Accords are for the maritime blockade, and I consider the entire blockade on Gaza to be morally illegal. Do you hace a piece of paper saying that I am wrong and that Israel has every right to do what they want with Gaza?
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:47 pm

Uhm, how exactly do you expect the UN to do that? How could they force Israel to let the aid through to them? How could they force Hamas to let them distribute the aid?

If you want to give the UN this power, you need a UN resolution sending Peacekeeping forces there.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:14 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Do you agree or not that when somebody is defenseless, on the ground, and surrounded by a dozen guys with bats and axe handles, you stop beating him?

Really can't understand your 'angle' on this, Dreadnought. If you've ever been in any branch of the service, you'll know the 'rules' - that you are entitled to defend yourself, but that any response must be 'proportionate.' In this case that boils down to, if you're being attacked with clubs etc. you're entitled to use your fists or your rifle-butt - but NOT your bayonet, and certainly not live ammunition unless you're actually being shot at.

But there's a further point - the matter of 'unlawful orders.' To put it as simply as I can, if you are ordered to do something that is plainly unlawful - in this case, attacking innocent civilians 85nms. from land, in international waters, with no provocation on their part - it would be your plain duty to refuse to obey any such orders; and take your chances on the inevitable court-martial clearing you.

Sounds hard - but that rule was introduced into the Commonwealth armed forces after WW2. Oddly enough, it was a response to the defence offered by German servicemen in war crimes trials related to concentration camps; namely, 'Befehl ist Befehl!' - "Orders are orders....."

I'm still wryly amused by the fact that present-day Israelis are increasingly acting very much in the way that the Nazis did between 1936 and 1945. Basically lock everyone who presents a problem up in camps (Gaza really being nothing more than a huge concentration camp) and, if even that doesn't stop them 'making trouble,' kill them........

To repeat what I said on the earlier thread - IMO, unprovoked attacks on ships 85nms. from land, in international waters -AND further the use of lethal weapons to kill people who were, as far as anyone knows, unarmed except for 'sticks and stones' - SHOULD, in all justice, lead to the servicemen involved, and especially their commanders, being charged with piracy and murder.

Whether they're found guilty or not is a matter for the relevant courts and juries. But there is no doubt in my mind that charges should be brought - provided, of course, that the individuals concerned have the benefit of a fair trial.

[Edited 2010-06-04 07:25:01]
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:21 pm

The UN has its hands tied on the Palestine question, firmly behind its back by the US that inspects every proposal for action, delouses it, denatures it and usually just rejects it - presumably after consulting Israel to make sure nothing could possibly be done that would disturb the good ship Israel on its merry course of wrecking the ME.
 
ronglimeng
Posts: 562
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:23 pm

I was surprised to see in Post #28, Baroque's reference to the "British Sergeants" (Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sergeants_affair , if you're interested). I remember seeing the photo of the two British sergeant's murdered by the Irgun while leafing through old issues of TIME in our university library back in 1968. At that time my simple-minded sympathetic view of Israel had been shaped by the movie "Exodus" and their then-recent David and Goliath exploits in the 1967 Six-Day's War.

But after seeing the TIME picture and reading the accompanying story, my view of Israel got a little more refined. Sure they made the desert bloom and they were the David in the David and Goliath stories of 1948, 1956, and 1967, but they sure as hell have never been the Boy Scouts in this story of modern nation building.

Why don't the Palestinians and their supporters get this? They're not dealing with the Boy Scouts. Factor that into your policies. Anybody who boarded those ships and thought they were going to brazen their way past the Israeli blockade and be heros, was pretty misguided. I think the only observations we can draw here are the usual.... anti-Israeli team - stupid, Israeli team - nasty.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:26 pm

Here's a journalist's account of what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cQ69oKFtVg&feature=player_embedded#!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16572
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:29 pm

Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 45):
I think the only observations we can draw here are the usual.... anti-Israeli team - stupid, Israeli team - nasty.

Unfortunately that's what we're left with at the end of the day. The real question I have is why anybody outright defends the nastiness and/or stupidity on either end  
 
tu204
Posts: 2277
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:33 pm

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 38):
So it appears that the IDF was indeed implementing riot control measures. Just proves that their intentions wasn't to kill anyone on board. Gas and stun grenades are NOT lethal weapons.

Same as the Somali pirates - they usually try to not kill anyone when they board their targets.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 38):
Again, that's the outcome if you are stupid enough to pick a fight with an IDF commando. From the way they were attacking the IDF soldiers, the Israeli's wouldn't have left the ship alive if their weapons had been thrown overboard.

Piracy is not OK, defending yourself from pirates is. Nobody is stupid. They were acting in self-defence, and unlike the pirates, they were acting legally.

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 38):
Anyone, really? That's why five of the six ships cooperated with the IDF instead of trying to pick a fight with them.

Many vessels that are boarded by Somalian pirates also give up right away and do not put up a fight. Others fight back. Both are right depending on the situation.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Israeli Forces Storm Gaza Aid Ship - Part 2

Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:57 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
Really can't understand your 'angle' on this, Dreadnought. If you've ever been in any branch of the service, you'll know the 'rules' - that you are entitled to defend yourself, but that any response must be 'proportionate.' In this case that boils down to, if you're being attacked with clubs etc. you're entitled to use your fists or your rifle-butt - but NOT your bayonet, and certainly not live ammunition unless you're actually being shot at.

A club or a knife is a deadly weapon. Several of the IDF troops are in hospital and in serious condition, incurred before they started shooting back. I have a concealed carry permit and by law I am allowed to shoot someone in the head if they come at me with a club or a knife.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
But there's a further point - the matter of 'unlawful orders.' To put it as simply as I can, if you are ordered to do something that is plainly unlawful - in this case, attacking innocent civilians 85nms. from land, in international waters, with no provocation on their part - it would be your plain duty to refuse to obey any such orders; and take your chances on the inevitable court-martial clearing you.

They were not attacking them - they were boarding their ship to enforce a legal blockade. Nobody was attacked on the other ships. If they were intent on attacking them the first hint of it to the crew would have been a Harpoon missile on the horizon.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
I'm still wryly amused by the fact that present-day Israelis are increasingly acting very much in the way that the Nazis did between 1936 and 1945. Basically lock everyone who presents a problem up in camps (Gaza really being nothing more than a huge concentration camp) and, if even that doesn't stop them 'making trouble,' kill them........

Show me the gas chambers, the ovens, and the medical experiment laboratories.  
Quoting Tu204 (Reply 48):
Same as the Somali pirates - they usually try to not kill anyone when they board their targets.

But unlike the somalis, the IDF was not trying to steal anything or hold anyone for ransom. They were enforcing a legal blockade.

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