deltaownsall
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Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:38 am

"Stolen" from some discussions on China Daily's Forum:

--"The USA is a devil ,never despite weaker countries,never give up chances to make betifits and show power~"

--(On PRC denying Robert Gates's visit to China recently) "China is doing the right thing!

Would you play poker with a cheat who has a spare pack of cards on his lap?

Talking to the Americans have been a complete waste of time.

China should have slammed the doors on the cheater, gangster and murderer' smug face long ago."

--"Yes, sticking American's big AIDS infested [expletive] into cesspools, and stirring them to stenchy mess has been a long Yankee policy.
We knows."

--(Topic: Which kind of Europeans is the ugliest?)"The Brits are greedy, but they are very stupid. They are ruled by a German woman, who just changes her surname to decieve the British people."

--"Anyway, I'm glade China don't have your Uncle Sam's upward pointing ideology.

'Stick ya bum up, and pull down your pant' poofy culture that you are so engrossed in, you perve! "

--"1. Brits and the French were robbers, thugs

They colonised almost all over the world. Their nature is greedy, cruel, so they fought with each for 100 hundred years.

Except for sacking and firing Our Yuan Ming Yuan, the two robbers are still refusing the national treasures of Chinese people. British Museum has been proudly displaying them that they robbed from China."

--"If you expect justice from Caucasoids then you are wrong, they are united against the Chinese. We need to achieve justice by our own effort."

--"(on what a realistic movie about an American invasion of China might entail) the story of zombie americans led by the homosexual / liberal party, paratroop in to China's rural areas, take over various key regions with tanks dropped in, heavy artillery, etc..

the amercan go into the schools and rape the kids, like they usually do, a group of black guys gang raping a 7 year old Chinese girl, real american-style warfare

dropping propaganda leaflets of pornography, homosexuality, and black people from airplanes

telling Chinese that in order to be happy, they all need to accept black people, homos, and porn, and turn their lives over to private banking and let private companies control all major resources and utilities, superstructure and infrastructure"

that would be REALLY scary"

There are, of course, countless more where these come from...and China Daily is certainly no rogue outlet, it's state-run. I wouldn't say that I frequent many other Chinese forums/blogs, but you don't have to look hard to find similar sentiments echoed in a number of other "netizen" outlets. Among the most common themes are Anglo-Americans and Europeans being labeled as "barbarians", the imminent destruction of the west at the hands of the PRC, and the demonization of "Western" media, especially the likes of BBC, Daily Telegraph, CNN, Der Spiegel, etc. which are said to be conspiring against China, sometimes at the behest of organizations like the CIA and MI6. The level of outright racism and anger presented by a number of these posters is downright scary, not to mention enraging and sad.* Just out of curiosity, since I haven't spent too much time in China myself, would anyone care to honestly estimate given their experiences in China how popular such xenophobic views really are in today's China? Are such attitudes likely to be a growing concern in respect to social development and stability in China?

*As a disclaimer, I absolutely do not intend to categorize all of China's 400m+ internet users into one group or suggest that all "netizens" are of the same mindset/opinion in any way, shape, or form. It does seem likely, however, given the prominence of posts similar to those above, that such comments may represent a considerable number of internet users in the PRC, especially given the tremendously large gross population of internet users in the country.

[Edited 2010-06-09 03:54:17]
 
GST
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:32 am

I have lived with two Chinese friends for the last two years, and they taken me to a couple of functions put on by a local Chinese society basically to celebrate and share their culture, with people of the city and our university. Fantastic, dragon dances, drummers, music, martial arts demos (with my housemate kicking apples off a sword tip 8 feet in the air, blindfolded). One time however, when they did their presentation on why China is such a wonderful place...it was just after the Tibet protests were all over the news. Screenprints from various world news agencies' websites scrawled over in red with the word "lies" and other annotations. There are significant elements of the Chinese population that is fiercely nationalistic, and in my experience often refuse to accept criticisms. But I have to contrast that with the two I live with, and others I know well who are open, friendly, generous, and willing to debate the merits of our systems and ideologies versus theirs (but these two are not particularly keen on any change from home either). Not clean cut by any means.

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):
would anyone care to honestly estimate given their experiences in China how popular such xenophobic views really are in today's China? Are such attitudes likely to be a growing concern in respect to social development and stability in China?

I have not been to China, but hope my experiences documented above help in your quest.

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):
that such comments may represent a considerable number of internet users in the PRC, especially given the tremendously large gross population of internet users in the country.

Or the considerable number of distributed cyber-attacks tracked to origins within the PRC? Or the high number of hacker websites that openly flaunt china's computer use laws, but avoid the censoring of "coercive" websites from home and abroad as most of their wrath tends to be projected overseas?
 
Doona
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:36 pm

People who comment on newspaper websites are generally nuts. Not just in China. I've stopped reading comments on Swedish papers' websites, because the only people who can be bothered to post there are lunatics, blaming whatever was the problem in any particular article on communists, gays or immigrants, or preferably a mix thereof.

In my own experience, A.net is basically the only large scale forum not dominated by nuts. Other than that, internet forums are for crazies. Say what you will about A.net's non-av forum these days, but at least the default setting is "decent". Hell, look at Youtube (pretty much any video will do), you don't have to scroll down far in order to find a comment containing the word "fag" in capital letters.

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deltaownsall
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:47 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
People who comment on newspaper websites are generally nuts.

Good point. To be fair, though, this is a phenomenon that is most certainly not isolated to the China Daily forums.
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:17 pm

I disagree with Doona's characterisation of newspaper website commenters as being "generally nuts". I occasionally comment on the Toronto Star website and I frequently read the comments on the Globe & Mail website and I find that outside contributors in both places often provide more insight that what was given in the original articles.

As far as ChinaDaily goes, I used to contribute there but it was poorly moderated and a lot of silly material was allowed to stay up on the board as long as it was anti-West, or anti-American in particular. I thought most of it was teen-age in character, hiding behind the anonymity of screen names. It is not all bad though on ChinaDaily. I think in a similar fashion to what the opening poster did, you could cherry-pick comments here on our website that would make Americans all look like red-necks. We know that is not the case.
 
sw733
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:18 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 1):
There are significant elements of the Chinese population that is fiercely nationalistic, and in my experience often refuse to accept criticisms. But I have to contrast that with the two I live with, and others I know well who are open, friendly, generous, and willing to debate the merits of our systems and ideologies versus theirs (but these two are not particularly keen on any change from home either).

Agreed 100%

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
People who comment on newspaper websites are generally nuts

Agreed.



Let me preface this by saying I am a dual citizen of the USA and Namibia, but most people think I am American, so what I have experienced can largely be taken as "What an American experiences in China":

I am in China every few months for work. I have been to many corners of the country, from Hong Kong to Shanghai, Xiamen to Beijing, Kunming to Urumqi. I have met lots of locals from many different provinces of China. They are some of the friendliest, most welcoming people in the world. Indeed, China is my absolutely favorite place to visit, and when take breaks from trips there (for example I have not been since December), I start to get a bit sad.

The biggest part I want you to take away from that paragraph is this: WELCOMING. They welcome me, everywhere I go, as an American. We may barely be able to speak to each other, if at all, and yet they are always willing to help me out, point me in the right direction, and be of assistance if I need them to be. They are mostly honest, hard working people that are just trying to make it through the day and scrape together what they can to feed their families and live as comfortable a life as possible.

I would say that what you have stumbled upon is such an incredibly small portion of the population that it really does not matter what they think. It would be like a European stumbling across an Aryan Nation website and extrapolating those viewpoints across all Americans.

I will defend China's population to no end. Their government...not so much. Their people, yes. Their people are amazing, friendly, and...well I pretty much summed up my views earlier. There are a few bad stones...nutballs, if you will. But, they are in every country. The USA has more than its fair share.

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
A.net is basically the only large scale forum not dominated by nuts

Don't you remember ConcordeBoy?!?!   But actually, yeah, I tend to agree with you there.
 
deltaownsall
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:03 pm

Quoting Ronglimeng (Reply 4):
I think in a similar fashion to what the opening poster did, you could cherry-pick comments here on our website that would make Americans all look like red-necks.

I've been around on airliners.net for some time now, and I'm quite sure that the level of rhetoric/unabashed racism/blatant hatred that can be found on China Daily and elsewhere cannot be found here. Not to mention, it took me about 5-10 min to wrangle up the above comments, all from current popular threads. They're extremely pervasive. As for the cherrypicking, I'm pretty sure I made that obvious from the start. I'm certainly not going to condense an entire forum into one post here, the question was pertaining to the particular type of "netizen" that makes such comments.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 5):

Cool. This is what I'm wondering...if these feelings and sentiments are popular and palpable in China today. I've been living in Singapore a bit over the past couple of years, and given the unparalleled growth in China and parts of E/SE Asia, I'm considering moving over here post-graduation. Naturally I'm very curious about life in China as it could also play a prominent role in my career. Your experiences are heartening.

[Edited 2010-06-09 10:07:26]
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:04 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
People who comment on newspaper websites are generally nuts

Yup...just take a trip down CNN or Yahoo Lanes....nothing but idiocy left and right.

In one article, written about a recent single-engine plane crash in NY, various idiots kept blaming global warming and the Obama administration for the crash...

....??????!
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BMI727
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:10 pm

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 7):
In one article, written about a recent single-engine plane crash in NY, various idiots kept blaming global warming and the Obama administration for the crash...

Blaming Obama and global warming for everything? I wonder where they heard that from?   
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Cerecl
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):
but you don't have to look hard to find similar sentiments echoed in a number of other "netizen" outlets.

Nutters and idiots are everywhere. One only needs to read NY Times or any other major newspaper website that allows readers to post their comments to see some US/UK/AU "netizens" are just as scary. The silliness appears to double whenever the news is about China.

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):
the demonization of "Western" media
Quoting GST (Reply 1):
.it was just after the Tibet protests were all over the news. Screenprints from various world news agencies' websites scrawled over in red with the word "lies" and other annotations

I can only say don't believe everything you read about China in ANY newspaper. The "reporting" by some sections of the "Western" media during the Tibet and Xinjiang unrest was disgraceful and angered A LOT of Chinese. Some reports were inaccurate (of course, the Chinese government closing down Tibet did not help), others were clearly wrong. For example, a newspaper put up a photo of Naplese policemen beating Tibet protesters and labelled it "Chinese policeman". Another newspaper, when reporting the Xinjiang unrest, put up a picture of two bloodied Chinese girls and claimed they were beaten by police while it was obvious that the two girls were of Han origin and were victims of Uighur rioters. In fact, there was (is?) even a dedicated website set up by volunteers that catalogued all the mistakes/inaccuracies made by these media. So the "demonisation" of western media was perhaps a reaction of "demonisation" by western media. Many Chinese living outside China left because they were disillusioned with their lives in China. However, after migrating to different countries (some even became naturalised) they suddenly turn into fierece defenders of China (and its government) because they realised just how much bias, misinformation and xenophobia there is in their new environment towards China.

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):
The level of outright racism and anger presented by a number of these posters is downright scary, not to mention enraging and sad

Again, you can find these types in abundance in any other country you care to name...

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):
would anyone care to honestly estimate given their experiences in China how popular such xenophobic views really are in today's China

About as popular as xenophobic views in today's US/UK/France/Germany, etc.

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):
Are such attitudes likely to be a growing concern in respect to social development and stability in China?

  
Those who hold extremist views are also extremely vocal. I honestly think you took this way too seriously.

Quoting GST (Reply 1):
here are significant elements of the Chinese population that is fiercely nationalistic, and in my experience often refuse to accept criticisms

Nationalistic is not a dirty word. Knowing what to criticise and when to do it is very important. For example, if you criticise the wide-spread corruption it is likely to be enthusiastically accepted. However, you are unlikely to make friends by suggesting that Tibet ought not be controlled by China, a view that is often held by some non-Chinese but is totally unwelcome among Chinese. Chinese are particularly sensitive to territorial issues, any discussion about Tibet/Taiwan are unlikely to be fruitful and could quickly deteriorate into an argument.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 5):
I will defend China's population to no end. Their government...not so much

It is sometimes very difficult to separate the population to the government. Chinese often equate an attack on their government that they perceived as unjust to an attack on themselves, despite being not generally satisfied with the government. This often comes as a great surprise to non-Chinese. I have seen too many occasions in which non-Chinese who thought they were criticing the government not the people became totally bewildered as they were buried under a wave of protest by ordinary Chinese.
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GST
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:58 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
Nationalistic is not a dirty word. Knowing what to criticise and when to do it is very important.

Nationalistic is a good word, but to my perspective it should be kept with a certain degree of cynicism, which is lacking in many of the Chinese I have met, talked, and debated with.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
any discussion about Tibet/Taiwan are unlikely to be fruitful and could quickly deteriorate into an argument.

Tibet is a touchy subject, but Taiwan seems to be less so (again, only within the limited pool of my experience). Whilst the Chinese I knew regarded the Taiwanese as estranged brothers, and would rather like to be unified, they seem to be of the opinion that diplomatic and trade links are the practical summit of this particular mountain, as the Taiwanese are generally pretty satisfied with independence (and it would be pretty much impossible to invade Taiwan at the moment, the PRC navy has insufficient maritime assault capacity and the United States has helped both arming and trained the Taiwanese forces well, but also have warships on port visits there all the time, you wouldn't want to accidentally hit one.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
I have seen too many occasions in which non-Chinese who thought they were criticing the government not the people became totally bewildered as they were buried under a wave of protest by ordinary Chinese.

I have noticed it also, I guess it is a cultural quirk, but I do still think an increasing cynicism towards government can't hurt.
 
Flighty
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:40 pm

Recently China was voted #1 for nationalist narcissism and the USA was voted #3. Russia was #2. I find that to be accurate. China is really getting proud of themselves and we will be hearing more about that.

Interestingly, Japan is ranked lowest in national conceit. Previously, 20 years ago, they were probably close to the top.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 5):
Their people are amazing, friendly, and...well I pretty much summed up my views earlier. There are a few bad stones...nutballs, if you will. But, they are in every country. The USA has more than its fair share.

Well said
 
Cerecl
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:54 am

Quoting GST (Reply 10):
I do still think an increasing cynicism towards government can't hurt.

Undoubtedly. However, it is interesting to note that many of the most staunch defenders of Chinese government are also quite vocal in criticising it at the same time. Internal affairs are usually fair game, but sovereignty and territorial issues are generally not.

Quoting GST (Reply 10):
Whilst the Chinese I knew regarded the Taiwanese as estranged brothers, and would rather like to be unified, they seem to be of the opinion that diplomatic and trade links are the practical summit of this particular mountain,

Very true. Strategically and emotionally a war on the Taiwan Strait would be a disaster.

Quoting GST (Reply 10):
as the Taiwanese are generally pretty satisfied with independence (and it would be pretty much impossible to invade Taiwan at the moment, the PRC navy has insufficient maritime assault capacity and the United States has helped both arming and trained the Taiwanese forces well, but also have warships on port visits there all the time, you wouldn't want to accidentally hit one.

Taiwanese are generally pretty satisfied with status quo, which is "no independence, no war". Both sides prefer to keep it vague at this time. However, the PRC government would have no choice, no matter what the consequence, if Taiwan does declare independence. Thankfully, I think (and certainly hope!) all parties, even the independence-seeking DPP of Taiwan, understand this.
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tbar220
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:47 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
People who comment on newspaper websites are generally nuts.

People who comment on internet websites are generally nuts.

  

p.s. j/k j/k
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CXB77L
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:07 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
So the "demonisation" of western media was perhaps a reaction of "demonisation" by western media.

The thing is, I don't think there's any media in the world that can claim to be completely impartial. There are certain views held or perpetrated by a pro-democracy Western media in support of Tibetan independence, and slamming the Chinese government for its censorship laws, especially that imposed on the discussion of the Tiananmen Square massacre.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
However, you are unlikely to make friends by suggesting that Tibet ought not be controlled by China, a view that is often held by some non-Chinese but is totally unwelcome among Chinese. Chinese are particularly sensitive to territorial issues, any discussion about Tibet/Taiwan are unlikely to be fruitful and could quickly deteriorate into an argument.

In my opinion, there are far too many things that are considered taboo in Chinese culture. There is absolutely no need to be so defensive when someone expresses an opinion relating to its policies on Tibet and Taiwan.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
It is sometimes very difficult to separate the population to the government. Chinese often equate an attack on their government that they perceived as unjust to an attack on themselves, despite being not generally satisfied with the government. This often comes as a great surprise to non-Chinese.

I've often wondered why the Chinese population seem to be so overly defensive whenever there is the slightest criticism of their government. This is not racism, it is in fact healthy to try to strive to have the people's voices heard. It is healthy to be able to openly criticise a government should they be seen as not doing the right thing for its people. Criticising the Chinese government does not equate to being anti-Chinese. I think being so fiercely "nationalistic" has its down sides. No one is perfect, and people need to recognise the faults of their government.
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mham001
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:50 pm

I lived with a Chinese woman for 4 years and spent a fair amount of time around her family and friends. I found that they were by and large, in general, the most racist people I had ever been around. They looked down on everybody, whites and especially blacks. if ever there were people who felt themselves superior, it was they. Of course, this was only expressed among themselves but it would sometimes slip out. l won't get into the rich Chinese in my community, their snootiness may have more to do with money.
 
rolfen
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:32 pm

The birth control policies in China suddenly seem to make sense..

  

To contribute to this thread, I used to "date" a woman from Singapore, for 1 month. When we parted she was quite mean, not taking my calls, calling me a looser and other stuff. I also heard that she got one of my ex-colleagues in trouble.

I had a black friend black then, and she once told me that he "touched her" ... presumably touched her hands slightly while talking (and being under the effect of beer) and she somehow told me when I asked whether she liked him "I dont like him... he's black!!", as if it was a stupid thing of me to ask whether she liked a black person - evidently not... he's black!!

In general, I never paid too much attention to that, but i got the overall impression that she was raised in a strongly patriarchal society and bent into following rules and what others say. It appeared to me that she would believe that whatever opinions that came from her motherland were true and she should "be stupid" for not listening to them.

I cant really judge a whole people from that, i can hardly judge her since I'm not perfect and biased myself - and have issues too! But that whole episode really pained me back then, I tried hard to find an answer, but could not without falling into ridiculous pseudo-psychology or racist theories, so with time I slowly moved away from it, but never really got an answer.

I just kept in mind that there is something about typical asian women, those nervous and smiling persons, and although the possess qualities I learned not to take for granted that they possess qualities that I came to expect in non-asian women.

Yet again, it's just one fruit in a batch.

[Edited 2010-06-11 12:00:42]
rolf
 
GST
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:35 pm

Quoting rolfen (Reply 16):

Singapore is a ways away from China both culturally and geographically though.
 
Flighty
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:19 am

This is just a repeat of Gung-ho Japan phobia in the '80s. I am not paranoid about Chinese culture and I don't see it as especially strange. It is what it is... the Chinese viewpoint, 1,000s of years old. We should just appreciate it for what it is. Certainly it can be improved, as our culture can. Are Chinese people snooty, it's hard to say, because for many years they tried to kill and/or re-educate all their snooty people. Are Americans snooty too, yes.
 
Cerecl
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:59 am

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
There are certain views held or perpetrated by a pro-democracy Western media in support of Tibetan independence

Whatever the viewpoint of the newspapers does not give them a licence to fabricate news to suit their agenda. Pro-democracy has very little to do with Tibetan independence, not even Dalai Lama thinks independence is going to work. If the media is truly pro-democracy they ought to focus their attention on Gaza instead.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
I don't think there's any media in the world that can claim to be completely impartial

Then how can one expect the "netizens" to be impartial?

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
In my opinion, there are far too many things that are considered taboo in Chinese culture. There is absolutely no need to be so defensive when someone expresses an opinion relating to its policies on Tibet and Taiwan

This is the difference between people of different countries/cultures. While in Australia people are quite laid back and very few, if any, topic is a taboo subject, Chinese are VERY sensitive to territorial issues, and take offence at any suggestions that a part of China ought not to be. Now you clearly don't think it is necessary, but it is easier to change the topic of the conversation than to change the view of >1 billion people.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
I've often wondered why the Chinese population seem to be so overly defensive whenever there is the slightest criticism of their government

Again, this is because the topic is wrong. Talk about corruption, talk about polarsing wealth, talk about the soaring real estate price, talk about difficulty in obtaining medical assistance in hopsital, and see if they are so defensive. Why do people keep on wanting to talk about issues on which there is overwhelming popular support, I do not know. If they are defensive, it is because they agree with the government. Surely you don't think the government can survive this long while not keeping majority of the population somewhat happy?

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
It is healthy to be able to openly criticise a government should they be seen as not doing the right thing for its people.

True, but what you see as "not doing the right thing for its people" may not be what the Chinese people see.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 14):
I think being so fiercely "nationalistic" has its down sides. No one is perfect, and people need to recognise the faults of their government.

Oh, they do, I assure you. They are far from blind. It is just that when a foreign newspaper says they ought to let a part of their country, which accounts for about 1/8 of the area of the whole country, where the central government pour money into with very little coming back, where thousands of volunteers go every year to help to develop, where the native people receive concessions that the majority of the population can only dream about, to become another country, they tend to think "what the hell, what do you know?"
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Cerecl
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:15 am

Quoting rolfen (Reply 16):
she once told me that he "touched her"

Chinese girls (although less so now) are not used to bodily contact from strangers. Plus, you don't seem to know the full story either.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 16):
she somehow told me when I asked whether she liked him "I dont like him... he's black!!"

While the "touching" incident certainly did not help, I have to admit that racism against people with dark skin is present among some Chinese. I have no idea why though.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 16):
she was raised in a strongly patriarchal society and bent into following rules and what others say. It appeared to me that she would believe that whatever opinions that came from her motherland were true and she should "be stupid" for not listening to them.

A lot of Chinese families are patriachal to some degree, although perhaps not as extreme as you described. The second part of th quoted opionion, however, is perhaps a bit over the top or restricted to a minority of the population.

Quoting GST (Reply 17):
Singapore is a ways away from China both culturally and geographically though.

  

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
I found that they were by and large, in general, the most racist people I had ever been around.

It is unfortunate that you had this experience. Chinese people by and large, are generous, caring, friendly, perhaps conservative by "western" standards, but certainly not racist.
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deltaownsall
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:45 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):
This is just a repeat of Gung-ho Japan phobia in the '80s. I am not paranoid about Chinese culture and I don't see it as especially strange. It is what it is... the Chinese viewpoint, 1,000s of years old. We should just appreciate it for what it is. Certainly it can be improved, as our culture can. Are Chinese people snooty, it's hard to say, because for many years they tried to kill and/or re-educate all their snooty people. Are Americans snooty too, yes.

First of all, I continue to be confused by the constant need to compare everyone to Americans. I'm sure we're all aware of the American nuts, ignorami, bros, rednecks, obese fast-food eaters, etc etc etc...we've only been hearing about them for an entire decade now. What is it about us Americans that makes us so eager to make everything about ourselves?  

Anyways, this phenomenon is not 1980s Japan, and it's not dynastic China, it's more of an amalagamation of the three wild phases that Chinese society has been exposed to over the past 100 years: The post-Qing chaos of the Versailles treaty, the second Sino-Japanese War and the Civil War, Mao's "Xenophobic House of Horrors," and now the Peaceful Ri$e. And, given the past thirty years, late 19th/early 20th century Japan would be a much better comparison.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):
Those who hold extremist views are also extremely vocal. I honestly think you took this way too seriously.

I get that you're trying to play devil's advocate here, but shrugging off the possibility of social unrest in China over any number of potential issues is myopic at best. There has most certainly been a growing sentiment in the PRC as of late that the government is not 'punching its weight' in lieu of its recent economic rise. The CCP is thus under consistently greater domestic pressure to 'strongarm' certain members of the international community, especially a few western states. This is widely considered to be the inspiration for the continued refusal to allow the renmibi to resume its steady appreciation to the chagrin of the G7, World Bank, and even minnow/apparent pal Singapore. I'm not buying that runaway nationalism/general anger (isn't there a generation named for this?) isn't on the radar of a government that considered it necessary to crush a peaceful movement based on spiritual breathing exercises as if it posed an imminent threat to 'harmony,' even as the party stokes the flames with pubs like People's Daily.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
I lived with a Chinese woman for 4 years and spent a fair amount of time around her family and friends. I found that they were by and large, in general, the most racist people I had ever been around. They looked down on everybody, whites and especially blacks. if ever there were people who felt themselves superior, it was they. Of course, this was only expressed among themselves but it would sometimes slip out. l won't get into the rich Chinese in my community, their snootiness may have more to do with money.

Whoa, careful there. The Cultural Relativism Police are unlikely to take kindly to such an anti-PC opinion.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:57 pm

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
The Cultural Relativism Police are unlikely to take kindly to such an anti-PC opinion.

So we should judge them by American standards? Or we shouldn't? I'm not sure what your overall position is?

I'm going with shouldn't. However, we should watch them like a hawk in terms of military and commercial behavior. So we can protect our interests.
 
deltaownsall
Topic Author
Posts: 1091
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:57 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
So we should judge them by American standards? Or we shouldn't? I'm not sure what your overall position is?

Not necessarily "American" standards (hell, I'm not even sure what those are any more...the US is feeling alot less "black-and-white" these days), but I wholeheartedly believe that we should adhere to at least some personal standards and reasonable societal conventions. And I think large groups in the the developed world, particularly the west, have a big problem with holding anyone else accountable for anything right now out of some sort of overt fear of ethnocentricism, or possibly even a convoluted sense of the dirty G-word. It's as if we've become a community of strict anthropologists, which ironically indicates the most patriarchal set of virtues possible.

I think it's perfectly fine to have an opinion if at the same time you're consistently working to educate yourself on the cultures in question, keeping in mind that the truth almost always lies somewhere in between the extremes, and that no group can be defined by an individual. It's also important, by my estimation, to try your best to be as honest as possible about your own culture, which I will say is an especially strong point among many posters here, like yourself.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 581
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:14 am

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
I continue to be confused by the constant need to compare everyone to Americans

I think the poster was simply trying to argue that the extremist opinion is not restricted to China but is everywhere. He could have said any other developed nations but the US is perhaps most close to home...

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
I get that you're trying to play devil's advocate here

If you think advocating a better understanding of Chinese culture and the relationship between Chinese people and its government is "playing devil's advocate", then I would happily dance with the devil...

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
but shrugging off the possibility of social unrest in China over any number of potential issues is myopic at best

Every countries have social issues. I have no idea why you think those in China is so destablising.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
The CCP is thus under consistently greater domestic pressure to 'strongarm' certain members of the international community, especially a few western states.

  
If you think the PRC government has demonstrated "strongarm" to Western states I wonder what you define as "strongarm". Case in point, Nicolas Sarkozy was vocally critical of China ahead of the Olympic Games in 2008 and nearly did not attend the opening ceremony. If one understands anything about Chinese psyche, one would know that this is equivalent to a slap on the face. Yet two years later he was welcomed with open arm. If I were a citizen of China I certainly would not want my government to refrain from demonstrating "strongarm" tactics if they are as soft as you defined...

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
This is widely considered to be the inspiration for the continued refusal to allow the renmibi to resume its steady appreciation to the chagrin of the G7, World Bank, and even minnow/apparent pal Singapore

Wrong on two counts. One, Renminbi has appreciated against US dollars. Two, the PRC government does not allow Renminbi appreciation not because they want to appear defiant (although this could be a minor consideration), but because of concern on the impact on its export business. China exports A LOT of stuff, I don't need to remind you what appreciation of Renminbi would do for export business, just ask Herr Enders and M. Gallois how much they like a strong Euro.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
I'm not buying that runaway nationalism/general anger (isn't there a generation named for this?) isn't on the radar of a government

It is certainly on the radar. Luckily, most people who are nationalistic are not extreme nationalists.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 21):
peaceful movement based on spiritual breathing exercises

I presume you are talking about Falun Gong. The government initially went over the top by banning it, but it certainly did not do itself any favour by organising some 20000 supporters to surround where the top brass of CCP live. Imagine the White House being sorrounded by 20000 supporters of a hitherto largely unknown organisation. The rest, of course, is history.

[Edited 2010-06-13 00:22:43]

[Edited 2010-06-13 00:24:50]
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deltaownsall
Topic Author
Posts: 1091
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:18 am

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 24):
Wrong on two counts. One, Renminbi has appreciated against US dollars. Two, the PRC government does not allow Renminbi appreciation not because they want to appear defiant (although this could be a minor consideration), but because of concern on the impact on its export business. China exports A LOT of stuff, I don't need to remind you what appreciation of Renminbi would do for export business,

The key word was resume. Appreciation was categorically halted at ~6.82 almost two years ago. That's not natural. Japan is a big exporting country, but they're certainly not going to peg the yen despite all their troubles with deflation and a currency that is reaching extremely inconvenient levels of strength. It's a complicated situation, no doubt, but like many others I think it is much more political at this point than economical. The currency will eventually have to appreciate, and many economists feel that it would be better to start earlier than save a more acutely painful appreciation for later on. I won't even begin to consider the fact that their policy amounts to currency manipulation, because I'm sure I can imagine where you stand on that issue.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 24):
If you think the PRC government has demonstrated "strongarm" to Western states I wonder what you define as "strongarm".



I indicated that they are "under pressure to strongarm." Not "China has demonstrated strongarm tactics". Moves like refusing the visit of Robert Gates, basically denying the widely agreed upon culpability of N Korea, and consistently frustrating multilateral attempts to deal with Iran more effectively are, however, some examples of prickly PRC foreign policy. And yes, I understand that they also have political interests in mind, and that the collapse of the NK regime would be catastrophic for China in some regards.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 24):
Imagine the White House being sorrounded by 20000 supporters of a hitherto largely unknown organisation. The rest, of course, is history.

Wow, I can't even begin to count the number of times this has occurred. It's not too hard to imagine. For a recent example, how about the 'tea partiers?'

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 24):
It is certainly on the radar. Luckily, most people who are nationalistic are not extreme nationalists.

Not sure why that couldn't just be said in place of the rolling smiley guy to begin with.  


Look, you're certainly knowledegable regarding Chinese politics and culture. Again, I'm just confused on why a thread specifically about China has to turn into a "reflect any potential inadequacies upon other countries" game. I'm trying to learn more about China, both socially and politically, not about how some other group of people in another country is nationalist or racist in a similar or different way to the originally highlighted group of netizens.

In fact, I'm not quite sure why you don't think certain issues in China could become destabilizing. Things are developing so quickly there that there is basically no comparison in modern history. Couple this with the largest population in the world, a teething authoritarian government that has yet to find its true identity, and a vast history of instability and regime change (as you know the PRC is only 60 years old itself), and I am just completely baffled that anyone with your level of understanding would insist that China's situation isn't, at the very least, extremely unique and largely unpredictable. I get the feeling that many China scholars or Sinophiles in general begin conversations with an extremely defensive stance as a result of the general (perceived or real) misunderstanding regarding China around the world. It's why I italicized "honestly" in the original post...both 100% derisiveness and 100% defensiveness are indicative of emotional, not factual, responses...and the topic of China seems to polarize like no other country can, save for the US. As always, I'm sure there's a middle ground.

Unless we somehow harbor perfectly contradictory opinions on all fronts regarding China, which is extremely unlikely, it does indeed seem thus far that you've been playing devil's advocate to each of my points.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 581
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:42 am

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
The currency will eventually have to appreciate, and many economists feel that it would be better to start earlier than save a more acutely painful appreciation for later on.

I am not sure even if the appreciation of Renminbi is inevitable (which I doubt), now is a good time. The world economy was and still is largely chaotic. This is perhaps the worst time to make any change.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
I won't even begin to consider the fact that their policy amounts to currency manipulation, because I'm sure I can imagine where you stand on that issue

Perhaps quite close to where you stand. This is currency manipulation, however, this is something that China has always done, and will continue to do. Fortunately or unfortunately, all king's horse and all king's men are not going to change that. I doubt you are going to find too many Chinese who are against this policy, why would the government change its approach?

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
Moves like refusing the visit of Robert Gates

There is an aircraft carrier group in the Yellow Sea ( large parts of which China considers as its territory) at the moment, awfully close to Beijing. I understand its main purpose is perhaps a show of force to NK, but Chinese armed forces are pretty angry too. Symbolism and face-saving is important to Chinese, and having USS George Washington so near may have sent the wrong message (intentionally or unintentionally) at the wrong time.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
basically denying the widely agreed upon culpability of N Korea

AFAIK, China neither denied nor confirmed the culpability of Cheonan sinking. It decided to be deliberately vague. It does not want a war on the Korean Peninsula, and neither does US.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
consistently frustrating multilateral attempts to deal with Iran more effectively

AFAIK, China approved the "toughest ever" sanction of Iran, passed not too long ago.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
prickly PRC foreign policy

China frequently disagrees with the foreign policy of US. If you believe this is "prickly", so be it. China has its own interest it must pursue, and these interest may not be the same as (sometimes even the opposite of) those of the US and its allies.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
Again, I'm just confused on why a thread specifically about China has to turn into a "reflect any potential inadequacies upon other countries" game. I'm trying to learn more about China, both socially and politically, not about how some other group of people in another country is nationalist or racist in a similar or different way to the originally highlighted group of netizens.

It is not my intention to deflect or shift the blame. I was merely pointing out that since such extremist are everywhere, there is nothing particularly surprising or worthy of more examination of the behaviour of ultra-nationalists in China.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
Things are developing so quickly there that there is basically no comparison in modern history
Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
China's situation isn't, at the very least, extremely unique and largely unpredictable

Unique, yes. Unstable, not necessarily. The current government of China is not the same as the one 50 years, or even 20 years ago. There is no longer any political strongman like Mao and Deng, the leadership is more balanced, with different forces restricting and moderating each other. The leadership also understand that it must listen more, one just has to look at what the PM of China is saying if any proof is needed. It is still an authoritarian regime, but it has adapted itself and will continue to adapt. As long as the government manages to keep the economy rolling along, and there is no sign that it can't (despite the predictions of some according to whom the Chinese economy should have collapsed a long time ago), popular unrest on a large scale remains unlikely. More importantly, despite having various areas that they wish the government could do more about (some areas, a lot more about), there is no issue that is serious enough that it really affects stablility. The situation is not dire, and the government has a larger than ever war chest...

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
As always, I'm sure there's a middle ground

And there is no absolute right or wrong, just different viewpoints, sometimes reconcilable, sometimes not.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
it does indeed seem thus far that you've been playing devil's advocate to each of my points.

More like a minor collision of how a Chinese and a non-Chinese look at China. It is a scintillating collision though, and I would like to thank you for not falling victim to the usual "general (perceived or real) misunderstanding regarding China".  

[Edited 2010-06-13 03:45:07]

[Edited 2010-06-13 03:46:01]

[Edited 2010-06-13 03:54:59]
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Cerecl
Posts: 581
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:52 am

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
The key word was resume

Oh, and apologies for not reading your post carefully enough.
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Flighty
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:26 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 26):
The world economy was and still is largely chaotic. This is perhaps the worst time to make any change.

Well, it's not only a "change," it is a "normalization" with respect to normal trade relations (with floating currencies). Free trade with a mercantilist parasite country is not free trade at all. China stands in basic violation of numerous obligations. However, they brilliantly designed the WTO policies so they could proceed as they have. This was all done according to China's strategic design, and they deserve a lot of credit for fooling everyone. They can be forgiven for believing they can dupe the Americans for 50 years on their "free trade" model. Unfortunately I am not sure that's the case. But, it has worked so well for them (10% growth still this year?) you can't help but acknowledge they won this round of global development, and that is okay. Still, big changes need to be made. Global "instability" is substantially caused by this Chinese strategy, but again, we should have known that 8-10 years ago.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:39 pm

It's obvious that we should never give China the benefit of the doubt. They view Western Democracy as a threat and stumbling block to their power base.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 5):
I would say that what you have stumbled upon is such an incredibly small portion of the population that it really does not matter what they think.

AKA. The Communist Party, which happens to be running the place.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):

  
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:48 am

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter):

*As a disclaimer, I absolutely do not intend to categorize all of China's 400m+ internet users into one group or suggest that all "netizens" are of the same mindset/opinion in any way, shape, or form. It does seem likely, however, given the prominence of posts similar to those above, that such comments may represent a considerable number of internet users in the PRC, especially given the tremendously large gross population of internet users in the country.

Be it Chinese, German, British, American, Tahitian or whatever, they ALL have internet trolls and they ALL say the exact same stupid things.
 
Cerecl
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:55 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):
It's obvious that we should never give China the benefit of the doubt

  
And the OP wonders why nationalistic sentiment in China is at an all time high. I challenge you to put yourself in the shoes of Chinese and not to be offended when reading comments like this.
What do you have in mind? War? Newsflash: the US and its allies tried in 1950, it achieved nothing but solidifying national identity. Sanction? China was in self-imposed sanction anyway until 1980s. Perhaps the OP would care to look into "gems" like this much closer to home?

If any one wondered what this

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 25):
the general (perceived or real) misunderstanding regarding China around the world

refers to, here is a great example.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):
They view Western Democracy as a threat and stumbling block to their power base.
Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):
AKA. The Communist Party, which happens to be running the place.

Did you even read and understand what you quoted?
Anyway, thank you for dramatically changing the standard of the discussion.  
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geekydude
Posts: 263
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:06 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):
It's obvious that we should never give China the benefit of the doubt. They view Western Democracy as a threat and stumbling block to their power base.

Yeah, right. When the movie Red Dawn (2010) comes out later this year, try not get too scared. Seriously, your empty ideologically driven statement eerily resembles the stuff from Fox News.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 28):
Global "instability" is substantially caused by this Chinese strategy, but again, we should have known that 8-10 years ago.

It is just so convenient to put the blame on someone else when your Wall street sold massive amounts of toxic assets which directly led to the world wide financial mess we are still struggling to recover from. Has it ever occurred to you that the 'imbalance' you mentioned is the result of a spendthrift government and the general public with an ever ballooning debt burden which by its very nature necessitates massive borrowing from overseas? (Economics 101)
The Chinese is financing the part of the debt, there is no doubt about it. But from what? Here is a hint. A barbie doll at Walmart sells for 20 dollars; the Chinese factory making it gets 30 cents. Your cheapest Ipad costs 500 bucks; the Chinese factory gets 13 dollars for assembling it, and it has to cover all of its expenses out of that. In contrast, Apple gets a whopping 300 dollars in gross profit. And you're saying China rips you off through trade?

[Edited 2010-06-13 19:08:19]
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mham001
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:14 am

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 19):
Surely you don't think the government can survive this long while not keeping majority of the population somewhat happy?

Don't you think the current governments' survival might have something to do with an iron fist over the population? Internet and media censorship and dissident suppression tend to do that.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 20):
It is unfortunate that you had this experience. Chinese people by and large, are generous, caring, friendly, perhaps conservative by "western" standards, but certainly not racist.

That response is classic and could have come straight out of the Communist Party propaganda machine, but it seems to contradict these statements...

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 20):
I have to admit that racism against people with dark skin is present among some Chinese. I have no idea why though.
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 9):

Again, you can find these types in abundance in any other country you care to name...
 
Cerecl
Posts: 581
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RE: Some Gems From China's "Netizens"

Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:59 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
something to do with an iron fist over the population

The current government is an authoritarian regime, but it is much cleverer and more adaptable that you seem to give credit for. Iron fist control can only last so long, just compare and contrast North Korea and China. What you described are true, but what really keeps the CCP in power is its ability to continuously improve the living standard of ordinary Chinese, and as long as it continues to do that, it will remain in power.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
could have come straight out of the Communist Party propaganda machine

No matter which political party is in power in China, it will say the same thing. You think The Capitalism Rocks Party of China, should they win government, will start to tell the world that Chinese are a bunch of racists? That Chinese people are friendly and welcoming does not need any propaganda machine from any political party to be established. The regrettable inability to separate politics and culture harms your credibility, not the Chinese people you appeared to have unfairly stereotyped. You may not like CCP very much, but to say that Chinese people are generally racist is perhaps a reflection of lack of understanding and experience with Chinese culture at best. I suggest you visit China and spend some time there, maybe you will have a different view then.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 33):
but it seems to contradict these statements...

Not at all. "by and large" means "on the whole", it does not mean "everyone". No ethnic group/culture is completely free of racist and other undesirable elements, but to base one's judgement of a group of people on a very small and unrepresentative sample is unwise.

[Edited 2010-06-13 23:01:09]
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