On The Right Path: Next AZ Immigration Law

ltbewr · Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:22 pm

I see some other practical issues that this proposed law would create serious problems.

It could mean many women (or the father of the child, even if legal) who are here illegally will not have their child born in a hospital and would have the child in their homes, with maybe a unqualified midwife, putting both the mother and child at great risk, including death. I bet many of the supporters of this bill are anti-abortion yet they would let maybe scores of babies and mothers die a year in Arizona due this law. Talk about counterdictions.

That the child's birth won't even be registered, even if they went back to Mexico or wherever they are from. That could cause huge problems in thier lives as can't prove their birth, may make them 'stateless' persons.

These are serious civil and human rights issues, also subject to the Constitutional protections, that shoud be considered.

AirframeAS · Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:34 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 100):
I bet many of the supporters of this bill are anti-abortion

For the record, I am not anti-abortion.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 100):
That the child's birth won't even be registered, even if they went back to Mexico or wherever they are from. That could cause huge problems in thier lives as can't prove their birth, may make them 'stateless' persons.

Good point, however, that is not the U.S. Taxpayer's problem. That is the Illegal Alien's problem. They chose the break the law. When one breaks the law, they run. With this in mind, as you pointed out above...

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 100):
who are here illegally will not have their child born in a hospital and would have the child in their homes, with maybe a unqualified midwife

They know if they are caught, they'll be deported. They know they screwed up, hence as to why they're "running" from the law.

So why are they here anyway if they are "running"??

ATCtower · Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:10 pm

I knew this would turn into a great debate.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 49):
We need to progress,,,,yes,, but goldenstate and everyone else is right. The law is unconstitutional and will fail. The correct handling needs to be at the federal level for a new amendment that supercedes the 14th.

I do not believe anyone is fighting this belief. We all know it is unconstitutional in its current form. We also have seen through history, the first step in amending the constitution is one voice standing out much louder than others in the face of opposition demanding reform. The anti-immigration bills in AZ are simply that.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 91):
That is because MAJORITY of those who were born here in the U.S. were born to legal parents who were also born in the U.S. and their parents were born in the U.S. as well. So, it is a problem. Doing the Anchor Baby thing by illegals is not the right avenue. This needs to be put to a stop. It is killing any and all social services we have for the already LEGAL citizen. Anchor babies should not qualify for these benefits, period.

I could not agree more. Very well said.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 92):
Migrating here is illegal by law, but our law allows for certain protections federally. The Federal Government needs to find a better way to deter the migration.

Proposal? Seriously. The only way to make anything change in this country (particularly anything that pisses off the liberals hugging the hippy tree) is going against popular opinion. Formerly being a law student, I will defend our constitution to the best of my abilities in its principles. This does not inhibit my abilities to address a requirement of progression. Our founding fathers did not write this into the constitution planning to make the US a safe haven for anyone not wanting to pay taxes. They wrote the 14th amendment to protect those forcefully brought to this country. Not those already committing a crime in doing so.

My $.02

AirframeAS · Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 102):
Our founding fathers did not write this into the constitution planning to make the US a safe haven for anyone not wanting to pay taxes.

But they did see this problem coming one way or another.... Our Founding Fathers were a heck of a lot smarter than we thought they were.

Maverick623 · Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:14 am

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 102):
Our founding fathers

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 102):
They wrote the 14th amendment

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 103):
Our Founding Fathers were a heck of a lot smarter

Slow down there, guys. The 14th Amendment was written well after the Founding Fathers passed away.

Aesma · Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:50 am

I just read what that amendment was about. Just so you know, France has the same kind of law (droit du sol), others too. In Mayotte (French territory) there are a lot of Comorans anchor babies as you call them.

The current government is "tough on illegal immigration" but only the far right would like to change the law to "blood right". There are people that help the illegals (we call them "stowaways" because French don't have the same love for the law as Americans, I guess), in fact just yesterday I saw at the movies the trailer of a movie about French people helping illegals, that will be at least the second one after the critically acclaimed Welcome (that one was showed at the Assemblée Nationale).

My take on the subject is that we reap what we sow. We're happy to pillage third world countries, let them be ruled by dictators that we sometimes even put there, and then we're surprised to see the people at our door ?

MUWarriors · Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:42 pm

I feel there needs to be a change in the Constitution regarding this matter and I think Arizona would be better off working on getting a change to the 14th Amendment than proposing a law that won't pass Constitutional muster before it even starts.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):

BUT THEY HAVE NO VOICE IN WASHINGTON!!!

If the states are upset enough, they have a perfectly legitimate way of getting their voice heard in Washington. If 2/3 of the states call for a Constitutional Convention they can propose any number of amendments they want which must be ratified by 3/4's of the states. No need to deal with the federal government at all. This is the built in protection that states have against the federal government and it has never been used.

AirframeAS · Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:54 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 104):
The 14th Amendment was written well after the Founding Fathers passed away.

Agreed, however, I was also talking in General terms. Sorry if I was not clear on that. The Founding Fathers were still a heck of a lot smarter than we thought they were.... you gotta admit. I still think the saw this issue coming no matter what. Why it was left out of our Constitution remains unknown.

DocLightning · Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:10 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 105):

The current government is "tough on illegal immigration" but only the far right would like to change the law to "blood right". There are people that help the illegals (we call them "stowaways" because French don't have the same love for the law as Americans, I guess), in fact just yesterday I saw at the movies the trailer of a movie about French people helping illegals, that will be at least the second one after the critically acclaimed Welcome (that one was showed at the Assemblée Nationale).

There's a happy medium between "jus soil" and "blood right," which is basically this: at least one of your parents must be a citizen, or must be here on a visa other than tourist or consular.

I'm all for very liberal immigration laws. Immigration is what made the U.S. great. We thrive on our diversity even as we struggle with it.

But the point is that we need immigration LAWS, not lawlessness. Immigrants need to come here to add to our economy and our tax revenues, not to take advantage our social welfare system.

Aesma · Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:58 am

So you think that people cross the border risking their life because they don't want to pay taxes ?

A detail about the idea of changing the law/constitution : would the US president still need to be born on US soil ? I find that bit strange, imagine you're born elsewhere because your (American) mother was traveling... Valéry Giscard d'Estaing was born in Germany, I don't know if it even came up during his campaigns/years in power.

ltbewr · Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:40 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 109):
A detail about the idea of changing the law/constitution : would the US president still need to be born on US soil

That is a good question, one that would have to addressed in a proposed Constitutional Amendmendment.

According to some news reports yesterday, the US Justice Dept. may be gearing up a lawsuit to terminate this and the other Arizona bill as to police stopping persons solely to check their citizenship status.

Unlike all but a tiny number of countries, the USA does not have a National Idenity Card for all citizens and we wouldn't want it for reasons that caused our independence. That makes it almost impossible to prove citizenship on the spot. One does not want to get or bring their Passport with them all the time.

Maverick623 · Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:14 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 109):
A detail about the idea of changing the law/constitution : would the US president still need to be born on US soil ? I find that bit strange, imagine you're born elsewhere because your (American) mother was traveling.

This actually came up in the 2008 election. John McCain was born on a military base in the Canal Zone in Panama.

The current interpretation of "natural born" is: at the moment of birth, the newborn child would be eligible for automatic US citizenship. As long as one natural parent is an American citizen, so is the child.

Two of my cousins were born in England to a British father and American mother. They are both hold dual citizenship, and received their supporting documents as soon as the got out of the hospital.

AGM100 · Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:59 pm

Here is how this is going to go down I am afraid ...

The Hispanic's are going to get more and more belligerent towards AZ law enforcement . It is already happening here ... Sheriff /TPD know that this is going to happen and have "seen it start already".

It is only going to take one incident and video ...and it will happen ...to light the fuse,, then the pressure will blow . Sad but this whole thing if far far from settled . Now we have the President and the administration siding with the law breakers ... how much more encouragement will they need?

I wonder if they shoot a few cops ....the President will simply shrug it off as a regrettable effect of this "concerning " law. I would say 100% Yes .... he will.

WarRI1 · Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:31 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 109):
So you think that people cross the border risking their life because they don't want to pay taxes ?

Let us not be dramatic, now the people of East Germany risked their lives to cross a border. I do not see 50 cal. machine guns, nor mine fields on our border. The people who have lost their lives have mainly done so because of stupidity, by their own actions, not the actions of our do nothing government. When they do get here, many of them certainly do not pay taxes, certainly cost us billions, overload our welfare, schools and hospital systems.

Aesma · Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:44 pm

The journey often does not start at the border, keep that in mind.

Dreadnought · Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:42 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 114):
The journey often does not start at the border, keep that in mind.

Which is why when we deport people, we shouldn't just dump them on the other side of the border - because they will just try again the next day. We should send them all the way back to Mexico city. I guarantee that the Mexican government will sit up and pay attention when we are sending a couple of chartered 747s every day into Mexico City airport.

Will it be expensive? On the face of it perhaps, but I expect not much more than $100-200 per head, and it guarantees that that most of them will not show up back at the border for a while.

DocLightning · Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:28 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):

Which is why when we deport people, we shouldn't just dump them on the other side of the border - because they will just try again the next day. We should send them all the way back to Mexico city. I guarantee that the Mexican government will sit up and pay attention when we are sending a couple of chartered 747s every day into Mexico City airport.

Will it be expensive? On the face of it perhaps, but I expect not much more than $100-200 per head, and it guarantees that that most of them will not show up back at the border for a while.

It will simply increase the risk and thus, increase the costs.

If we simply make it impossible for them to earn money here or have anchor babies here or get ANYTHING here without being legal, then we could plant a flower garden on the border and leave it at that.

Dreadnought · Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 116):
It will simply increase the risk and thus, increase the costs.

How would it increase risk?

WarRI1 · Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:11 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 114):
The journey often does not start at the border, keep that in mind.

Your point, brings up another. How do all these supposed poverty striken folks, afford to travel these great distances, and afford to pay for somone to smuggle them into our country. Quite obviously it is quite lucrative to come here, if they are willing to invest that money. We make it so, with all the freebe's, that I and millions more are paying for. I do not care one bit about anyone elses borders, I only care about ours. I think it is about time for the 50 cals, and the mines, then we will see if the illegals we get are as brave as the East Germans, or as desparate as they were. I think the word desparate is vastly overused in this case, and a favorite of the advocates of illegal immigration.

ATCtower · Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:36 am

This may sound callous.... Hopefully it doesnt strike down my respect rating.............

Toss em right back across the border

Quoting Aesma (Reply 114):
The journey often does not start at the border, keep that in mind.

I dont give an F where your journey started. If you want in my country ILLEGALLY, prepare to face the wrath of my people.... Period.

If you want in this country AND are willing to pay taxes and speak English like the rest of us, welcome. If you are not, you are not welcome...

PC or not... This is the way the real American people feel.

And for the thread, here is patriotism with an American flag. The thirteen red and white and the fifty beautiful

Aesma · Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:54 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 118):
Your point, brings up another. How do all these supposed poverty striken folks, afford to travel these great distances, and afford to pay for somone to smuggle them into our country.

On top of a train, it's free. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_Nombre_%282009_film%29

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 119):
If you want in this country AND are willing to pay taxes and speak English like the rest of us, welcome. If you are not, you are not welcome...

Even I who are French cannot do that just like that. It's not like green cards are easy to get (not that I would want one).

WarRI1 · Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:23 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 120):
On top of a train, it's free.

Hard to take a train across an ocean, we are not just talking South America here, they are coming in from many areas across oceans. The people smugglers do not come cheap, even for those from South America. Long train trip on top of a train car, somebody taking bribes perhaps, somebody has the bribe money to pay.

AirframeAS · Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:30 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 112):
I wonder if they shoot a few cops ....the President will simply shrug it off as a regrettable effect of this "concerning " law. I would say 100% Yes .... he will.

Arizona has already had to deal with illegals shooting cops as of late. I believe in the first AZ Illegal Immigrant thread, there was a TUS or Pima County cop that got shot by an illegal. I agree with you AGM, if a cop got killed by an illegal alien, President Obama will shrug it off, setting off a whole brand new war between the nations cops vs. the President. This is the President's to lose if this were to happen. The President would be stepping on a very fine fragile line with the Police Officers community.

Quoting ATCtower (Reply 119):
I dont give an F where your journey started. If you want in my country ILLEGALLY, prepare to face the wrath of my people.... Period.

If you want in this country AND are willing to pay taxes and speak English like the rest of us, welcome. If you are not, you are not welcome...

PC or not... This is the way the real American people feel.

I feel the exact same way. I am willing to pay $5 a head of lettuce just to get rid of the illegal aliens in this country.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 120):
Even I who are French cannot do that just like that. It's not like green cards are easy to get (not that I would want one).

Green card or not. If you want to live here in the U.S; pay taxes like the rest of us or stay home in your home country. It is not fair that Illegal Aliens get to live here for free and not pay any taxes when they drain up our social services that was NOT EVER DESTINED for them.

AGM100 · Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:05 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 122):
Arizona has already had to deal with illegals shooting cops as of late.

Them shooting our guys is not the problem (for the far left) .... it will be when a officer has to shoot a illegal that we will see the real fireworks. And after 1070 becomes law.

DocLightning · Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:44 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 118):

Your point, brings up another. How do all these supposed poverty striken folks, afford to travel these great distances, and afford to pay for somone to smuggle them into our country.

I'll answer your question because I know the answer.

In 2006, the fee was US$1,500 and you pay guys called "Coyotes." They bus you to south of the border and then you walk about 30-100 miles on foot over a period of several days, moving at night, sleeping by day in the heat of the desert. Once you arrive the U.S. you are then put on buses/planes/whatever conveyence to get you to your final destination (for an additional charge).

You don't pay up front, but the Coyotes know where you are. It's organized crime, after all, so if you don't pay... well, let's just say that you can't make an omelet without breaking a few legs... You pay the money back from what you earn from your work that you get, of course.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 117):

How would it increase risk?

You proposal makes it even riskier to get across the border, so therefore more expensive. Remember, risk is only a deterrent so far. It simply is not cost-effective to raise the risk high enough to actually significantly deter immigration.

My argument is that we can stop illegal immigration tomorrow if we wanted to with some policy changes. Like almost 100%. And no fences, guns, landmines, border patrol, air drones, satellite-mounted particle beams, or sharks with frickin' laser-beams on their heads will be necessary.
1) Require all employers to keep SSN's on their employees (and enforce the rule with stiff fines and inspections)
2) Revise the 14th amendment
3) Guest worker program

Economy stays stable, nobody immigrates permamently because they can't.

stasisLAX · Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:12 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 91):
Oh, Arizona isn't losing anything. Their economy is doing quite fine with the boycotting. This is not Arizona's battle to lose, it is the boycotter's battle to lose. I have said this before in the other Arizona threads.

We're losing the things we WANT to lose - illegal aliens driving without insurance (I was the victim of this, with a totalled 3 yr old car rearended by an illegal with a fake insurance card, registration, and drivers license. The Phoenix Police never caught the illegal, so my insurance company ended up paying the claim - and my insurance went up 25 percent at renewal. Honest, taxpaying citizens of Arizona are flippin' tired of being used as a doormat for the crime that the illegals commit - period. Two thirds of the citizens support completion of the damn border wall and SB1070. Protection of our border regions ranchers from the murderous drug and people smuggling "coyotes" is VERY important to Arizona. Phoenix has one of the highest car theft rates and is the kidnapping capital of the United States - fueled by the illegal population.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
It's organized crime, after all, so if you don't pay... well, let's just say that you can't make an omelet without breaking a few legs

Exactly Doc, and the "coyotes" view life VERY cheaply. And it doesn't matter if innocent citizens get killed when things get in the way of them making money on either drug or people smuggling. It's the freakin' wild-wild-west here again. The police constantly find "stash" houses with 30 or 40 illegals living in them here in Phoenix, sometimes with drugs being smuggled along with them. We need to complete the border wall, staff it with several thousand additional National Guardsmen, and fully enforce SB1070 to the fullest extent of the law. To hell with the 14th amendment, the U.S. is being invaded by the failed state of Mexico and it's criminal cartels.

[Edited 2010-06-20 18:14:37]

[Edited 2010-06-20 18:20:14]

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:52 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 125):
Two thirds of the citizens support completion of the damn border wall and SB1070.

And that is not only in the state but nationwide.

That is the biggest favor the administration has done for the GOP - there is now no question where Obama lies on the question of illegal immigration. He is firmly against any sort of enforcement of existing law.

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:46 am

And it gets more and more clear...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpyrlX52TwA&feature=player_embedded

Obama To AZ Senator – “The Problem Is…If We Secure The Border, Then You All Won’t Have Any Reason To Support ‘Comprehensive Immigration Reform’

Notice how Obama is trying to use the Arizona border issue to promote his wider amnesty for illegals agenda in the same way he is using the Gulf oil spill to promote cap and trade.

Maverick623 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:17 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 127):
Obama To AZ Senator – “The Problem Is…If We Secure The Border, Then You All Won’t Have Any Reason To Support ‘Comprehensive Immigration Reform’

If Obama did actually say that, I do believe that is an impeachable offense. Willfully allowing the border to go unsecured (thereby not providing for the defense and general welfare) when the means exist to secure it is just wrong.

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:30 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 128):
If Obama did actually say that, I do believe that is an impeachable offense. Willfully allowing the border to go unsecured (thereby not providing for the defense and general welfare) when the means exist to secure it is just wrong.

I think he's racked up several impeachable offenses already. But he will not be impeached.

1) The current democratic congress won't impeach him if Obama stabbed a steak knife through someone's head.

2) Even if the GOP wins back congress this fall, they would be wise not to try (except in the case of a steak knife). After all the attempts to impeach Clinton and then GW Bush over stupid little crap, any such attempt will be received as the GOP being guilty of the same old behavior that we are so tired of.

3) Even if the GOP ignores 2) and wins, Obama goes away, and we are stuck with Biden. Dumb and Dumber.

4) and finally, it is becoming more and more clear that Obama will not be reelected. The 2012 election will center around Obama's track record of willful disregard for the law (immigration), and incompetence. With Obama's record, Abe Lincoln would have a tough time getting elected.

Easier for the GOP congress to simply ignore Obama as much as possible over the next couple of years, pass balanced budgets, and restrict the damage Obama can do until 2012.

AGM100 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:09 pm

"Comprehensive immigration reform"..... even La Raza supports that . CIR is simply amnesty and a free pass to the ballot box for illegal's ..... now that is something the president will support.

All of this arguing means nothing , McCain Kyle has their chance to really reform and they did not . Brewer did ... she moved boldly and set the tone for the debate ..not Kyle or McCain.

I believe that President said that .... it fits his style to a tee... Add to that the last thing the far left wants to do is secure the US or even give the impression it cares about securing the US . The President would be far more comfortable apologizing to the immigrants than upholding the law... after all the US is the aggressor and acted arrogant in the past by establishing a border in the firsts place.

FlyPNS1 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:03 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 130):
"Comprehensive immigration reform".....

If you don't reform our current immigration laws, any attempt to secure the border will fail.....GUARANTEED.

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:08 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 131):
If you don't reform our current immigration laws, any attempt to secure the border will fail.....GUARANTEED.

And if you don't secure the border, any "Comprehensive Reform" will fail... even more GUARANTEED.

When everyone was given amnesty in the 80s, did it solve anything? No. Comprehensive reform must also include things like eliminating the anchor baby advantage, and solidifying into law that anyone entering the country illegally will NEVER be granted citizenship, nor will his kids.

FlyPNS1 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
And if you don't secure the border, any "Comprehensive Reform" will fail... even more GUARANTEED.

If the illegals can't find a job, most will stop coming.....regardless of the border.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
Comprehensive reform must also include things like eliminating the anchor baby advantage, and solidifying into law that anyone entering the country illegally will NEVER be granted citizenship, nor will his kids.

I agree. It should also agressively pursue those who hire illegal immigrants. Major raids on every business suspected of employing illegals and big fines.

If you don't make these changes and there are still jobs available, the illegals will continue to blow right through (or under, or around) the border.

NIKV69 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:20 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 127):
Obama To AZ Senator – “The Problem Is…If We Secure The Border, Then You All Won’t Have Any Reason To Support ‘Comprehensive Immigration Reform’

Notice how Obama is trying to use the Arizona border issue to promote his wider amnesty for illegals agenda in the same way he is using the Gulf oil spill to promote cap and trade.

Oh absolutely, Obama is a tough position here. If he secures the border he loses the minority vote which is looming large since his re-election chances get worse and worse every week. This is why he has ignored AZ's pleas for help before they passed 1017. Obama probably hoped the country would condemn it but after polling showed 70% were for it then he had to pledge to send national guard and money. If he goes ahead and sues them and loses it will be a crushing loss to his administration. All of which has crushed his chance for any sort of bill this year. Fact remains you can't have a bill without a secure border. Now the powers that be in the congress are the ones who control this and Pelosi and her ilk will never allow a secure border or any law that exposes or deports illegals. SF is a sanctuary city where illegals are given safe haven.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 131):
If you don't reform our current immigration laws, any attempt to secure the border will fail.....GUARANTEED.

This doesn't make any sense, how can you reform the current situation while allowing people from Mexico to just enter the US illegally?

Fact is you have to show Mexico the party is over and you just can't walk in here, hide out and then wait for Pelosi to give you amnesty. This has to stop. Unless it does you can't even begin to debate a new bill.

FlyPNS1 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:16 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 134):
This doesn't make any sense, how can you reform the current situation while allowing people from Mexico to just enter the US illegally?

If there's no economic incentive, most will simply stop coming. Our border with Canada is just as porous, yet few illegally cross it. And the simple reason is economics....the Canadians have no economic incentive to illegally enter. Once you remove the economic incentive, then you can focus your border security on those remaining rogue illegals who are mostly tied to drug traffic.

Not to mention that immigration reform will cost little compared to your version of "securing the border." Instead, your proposal to "secure the borders" will cost billions of dollars, hundreds/thousands of lives (stepped up border means lots more violence) and worst of all, the people will still keep coming because they know we can't effectively control a 2,500 mile border.

It's always funny how the "fiscal conservatives" always seem to advocate the most expensive solution FIRST.

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:55 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 135):
If there's no economic incentive, most will simply stop coming. Our border with Canada is just as porous, yet few illegally cross it. And the simple reason is economics....the Canadians have no economic incentive to illegally enter. Once you remove the economic incentive, then you can focus your border security on those remaining rogue illegals who are mostly tied to drug traffic.

That is a pipe dream. The reason there is no mass migration between Canada and the US is because both countries have roughly the same standard of living. That is not the case in Mexico, where average income is nearly 4 times smaller.

As long as Mexico continues to be substantially poorer than the US, there will continue to be an economic incentive for large scale migration. So unless you have a solution to bring Mexico's PPP up to US standards or bring ours down to theirs, it ain't gonna happen.

FlyPNS1 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:05 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 136):
As long as Mexico continues to be substantially poorer than the US, there will continue to be an economic incentive for large scale migration.

But if they can't find jobs here, the incentive is gone.

We've already seen evidence of this. When the economy nosedived in 2008-09, the number of illegal immigrants entering the U.S. also took a dive. Simple reason, they couldn't find a job and so many stopped coming. Plus, some that were here went home.

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:12 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 137):
But if they can't find jobs here, the incentive is gone.

There will always be jobs available, unless you are going to set up STASI-style informants on every street corner. Increase the fines for hiring illegals, OK, the going rate that people will be willing to pay for illegal labor will go down from $6 per hour (or whatever it is) down to $3. That's STILL more than what they might be earning in Mexico, and all you've done is marginalize them even more.

FlyPNS1 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:01 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 138):
There will always be jobs available

Using that defeatist logic, then there will always be illegal immigrants since it is impossible to secure the entire border.

Not to mention that if you don't crack down on employers, you still can't rid yourself of the 10-12 million illegals that are already here.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 138):
Increase the fines for hiring illegals, OK, the going rate that people will be willing to pay for illegal labor will go down from $6 per hour (or whatever it is) down to $3.

Not if the fines are steep enough to put companies out of business.

AGM100 · Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:22 pm

As some of you know I travel from Tucson to Puerto Penasco ( Ricky Point ) Mexico quite a few times a year . It has been a vacation spot for me and my family for 30 yrs. Now its seems the insurgency has struck the once quite fishing town .... terrible news for us and the great people who live in the town. Man the poor Mexican people ... this is the last thing they need their.

http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=12683060

Dreadnought · Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:45 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 139):
Using that defeatist logic, then there will always be illegal immigrants since it is impossible to secure the entire border.

Sorry, but you are the one who is being defeatist. We are not talking about 100% hermetically sealed - I'd consider 95% a success. Yes, there will always be a few leaks. But that's what the inspections and AZ Law 1070 are for.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 139):

Not to mention that if you don't crack down on employers, you still can't rid yourself of the 10-12 million illegals that are already here.

We are never going to get rid of them - the disruption on both side of the border would be tremendous.

But if you shut down the influx of new illegals, then you will find that there will be much less resistance to the idea of amnesty/legalization. No path to citizenship (they DID break the law), but at least legalization, and taking them out of their marginalized status outside of the legal protections afforded to legal workers (minimum wages, working conditions etc).

But this exactly what the Obama administration does not want to allow.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 139):
Not if the fines are steep enough to put companies out of business.

There will ALWAYS be people willing to take the risk, unless you have inspections 2 or 3 times per week - which is not feasible or viable in a free country. If the threat of fines or punishment worked, there would be no drug dealers or almost any other crime.

DocLightning · Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:10 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 136):

That is a pipe dream. The reason there is no mass migration between Canada and the US is because both countries have roughly the same standard of living. That is not the case in Mexico, where average income is nearly 4 times smaller.

If you cannot make money here, then it doesn't matter.

Now, there will always be a bit of an incentive from people who hang outside U-Hauls and sell their services, prostitutes, drug dealers, etc. That can never be completely fixed, least of all with a wall and UAV's. But if their kids won't be citizens and if we have a strong deportation rule, the numbers will drop SO dramatically that it will become mostly a non-issue.

AirframeAS · Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:19 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 125):
Phoenix has one of the highest car theft rates and is the kidnapping capital of the United States - fueled by the illegal population.

And it is also said to be the murder capitol of the world.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 126):
there is now no question where Obama lies on the question of illegal immigration. He is firmly against any sort of enforcement of existing law.

Then that is an impeachable offense. He swore to uphold and protect the Constitution and the laws of the land. Now he is backing out on his sworn word. How can the American people trust him if he backs out of his word??

Dreadnought · Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:27 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 143):
Then that is an impeachable offense. He swore to uphold and protect the Constitution and the laws of the land. Now he is backing out on his sworn word. How can the American people trust him if he backs out of his word??

Just wait... There are strong rumors that Obama is considering granting mass amnesty to all illegals in the country - not through Congress but by executive order.

The rumors are apparently strong enough that 8 senators have written to Obama hoping to head him off.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...nilaterally-grant-blanket-amnesty/

As the rumor spreads, we can expect millions of people to flood the borders trying to get in in time to take advantage of the amnesty.

[Edited 2010-06-23 13:29:22]

AirframeAS · Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 144):
here are strong rumors that Obama is considering granting mass amnesty to all illegals in the country - not through Congress but by executive order.

If that happens, that would then break the straw on the camels back on his Presidency, he would be finished. No 2012 for him.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 144):
As the rumor spreads, we can expect millions of people to flood the borders trying to get in in time to take advantage of the amnesty.

Then the average middle class American who is doing well would then be pushed deeply into poverty.

NIKV69 · Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:20 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 144):
Just wait... There are strong rumors that Obama is considering granting mass amnesty to all illegals in the country - not through Congress but by executive order.

No way, he can't even consider this unless he has the border secured, and I mean for real. If he was stupid enough to do this once word hit Mexico it would be a free for all. Not to mention it will seal his fate and a one termer and make the DNC's losses this November massive. I don't believe it.

avent · Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:27 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 144):
As the rumor spreads, we can expect millions of people to flood the borders trying to get in in time to take advantage of the amnesty.

Good thing people aren't spreading the rumor.

On the otherhand, the rightwing has wrecked the country chasing rumors of WMDs and starting unnecessary wars and other sorts of trouble for us. So, I suppose it's more of the same.

avent · Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:30 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 143):
And it is also said to be the murder capitol of the world.

Oh dear! The MURDER CAPITOL OF THE WORLD no less!

Just to put our minds at rest that this topic hasn't degenerated into a feeding frenzy of rightwing hysteria, could you provide a reputable reference supporting this rightwing truthyism?

AirframeAS · Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:32 am

Quoting avent (Reply 148):
could you provide a reputable reference supporting this rightwing truthyism?

Just ask anyone who lives in the PHX area and they will tell you. I, being one of them. I lived in PHX for 5 years.

And, Avent..... please, chill out. Relax, bro.

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