I grew up in the Hell, Fire and Brimstone Baptist church. And while I know it's not representative of normal churches, I can't help but feel they are just loudmouths for common sentiments among the Christian churches of the US and around the world.


So my questions are:

1. How do you justify the creation story?
2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?
3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?
4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?
5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?
6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?
7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)
8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?
9. Does your church actively participate in politics?
10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

I ask because I checked out of the church a long time ago with a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm wondering what makes it tick for you with those questions in mind. I know that some of you will attempt to quote the Bible in justifying the above, but in all reality, it's really not evidence....kind of like evidence in court, a bible verse would not stand.

UAL

[Edited 2010-07-20 10:03:50]

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?

As someone who was thankfully brought up in a completely secular atmosphere, this is the question which intreagues me most.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): I can't help but feel they are just loudmouths for common sentiments among the Christian churches of the US and around the world.

Sounds as if you've made up your mind already no matter what people will say herein.

Quoting Slider (Reply 2): Sounds as if you've made up your mind already no matter what people will say herein.

Of course I've made up my mind, as have the Christians I'm asking. Doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussing and debating....

Quoting Slider (Reply 2): Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): I can't help but feel they are just loudmouths for common sentiments among the Christian churches of the US and around the world. Sounds as if you've made up your mind already no matter what people will say herein.

It sounds to me as if he's using the scientific method: He has formulated a theory and is attempting to gather evidence that either proves or disproves his theory. 

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

I'm no Christian (or religious at all), but isn't that sort of the whole idea behind "faith"?

Why have faith in something that you know to be true, or that you know exists?

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

That's kind of the definition of faith. I am by no means a devout Christian, but faith in God is of course the pillar on which any religion is built.
I lean toward a more scientific view of things but there are many instances in that realm that require such faith. "Dark matter" and"dark energy" are two pretty good current examples. Cosmologists can't see or actually prove either exist ,but insist they must. How about the tenets on which M theory stands? 12 dimensions...really? Oh trust us, they exist, we just can't see them. Ok, fine. So it cuts both ways.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 6): "Dark matter" and"dark energy" are two pretty good current examples. Cosmologists can't see or actually prove either exist ,but insist they must. How about the tenets on which M theory stands? 12 dimensions...really? Oh trust us, they exist, we just can't see them. Ok, fine. So it cuts both ways.

Both of these are pretty inaccurate statements.

Dark matter and dark energy are concepts used to explain the data that we currently do have. Just because there isn't evidence yet doesn't mean the scientific community isn't actively searching (and yes they are. My professor is heavily involved in dark matter research). No reputable scientist states absolutely that dark matter exists, but rather that there is a high probability that it exists because it fits the data so well. There are many things we don't have direct evidence for yet but are inclined to believe because of indirect evidence. No scientific theory, however, can become an established fact with direct evidence.

As to M-Theory, again you act as if it is widely accepted and put forth as fact by the scientific community. M-Theory as of yet is nothing but a theoretical framework. The reason it is so exciting is because it can unify lots of data together in a way that has yet been unable to be brought together. The 12 dimensions you speak of are a consequence of the theory, but it is and will not be anything but a theory without direct evidence.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story? 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient? 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't? 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists? 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity? 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think? 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote) 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives? 9. Does your church actively participate in politics? 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

I am a committed "a la carte" Catholic and I take great pride in doing away with the "silly bits"; I'm a strong believer in the concept that religion needs to evolve to meet changes in society and the increased understanding of the human person and psyche. To answer your questions:

1. I don't. I don't take it seriously.
2. Again, I go with Science; my father is a scientist and deeply religious, although there really isn't a lot of conflict between chemistry and religion.
3. A very interesting question. I find it very interesting, for example, that those on the extreme right of the American religious right tend to look more towards the old testament for their inspiration than the new testament, which seems to have a bit too much compassion and mercy for their liking. Therefore, one has to question whether they can really be regarded as "Christian".
4. That's really the definition of faith.
5. No. To me, that would be an insult to those with whom I deal. I have a very close friend who is a Buddhist; I envy her serenity and her compassion and cannot help but wish I was brought up in an environment of such tolerance and understanding.
6. Again, a similar answer to No.5, above. Just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they are amoral. Indeed, their ethics and way of life can be very much healthier than the Christian way of life.
7. Up to a point. I would find it extremely difficult to "love" (read "spend any time with", "talk to" etc) a paedophile or a rapist.
8. I never bought that line. To me, living a good life and optimising one's potential as a human being are the most important things and anyone - Christian or not - can do this.
9. Yes, but generally makes a dog's breakfast of it.
10. I assume that you're talking about the US, although I think the same can be said of Ireland and most western countries. That's fine up to a point; the basics are fine, but the problem is that it often takes a long time to include other religions and cultures. I do not believe that modern societies should embrace only Christian principles. It may be guided by these principles, but let's not forget that democracies are supposed to exist for the good of their people and that should be their main goal; Christianity (or the beliefs of any religion) should not stand in the way of this.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story?

Justify it? What need justifying? I think biological scientific evolution and creation aren’t mutually exclusive; let me explain. We can all agree that species evolve over time, but I believe that humans were given a soul as a gift from God. I believe that we were in fact set above all other creatures and that we have dominion over them, along with the charge to act responsibly with/to the natural world as it and all of those creatures.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?

Do you have an example? I don’t and can’t think of anything really where I’ve had a conflict like this.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?

Example? I don’t know what you might be alluding to, but there are some things that are important to know about the Bible. Instead of selectively picking and choosing, it’s critical to know that there is a chronology of the Bible, primarily Old vs New Testament. Unlike some other religions’ sacred texts that are piecemealed over time, with no chronology, historical support, etc, there is a great deal of historical and factual support for the geography, events and such in the Bible. I haven’t scratched the surface in terms of Biblical knowledge and wisdom and always marvel at the context and history lesson my pastors place on things, in terms of linguistic translations, etc.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

That’s why it’s faith. But another distinction—just because I can’t SEE it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?

Yes, as that’s a Biblical charge from Jesus Himself to spread the good news. I think where this gets twisted is that some organized religions (ie: your childhood fire and brimstone types) take that mandate and are die-hard evangels about it. I think the message doesn’t always have to be hammered in such a manner. Not everyone responds to that stuff—I know I sure don’t.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?

I think it takes more faith to be an atheist than it does to be a Christian.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)

Yes, I think that’s a fair thing to say. I don’t know why it gets so turned about. While ultimately we are somewhat defined by what we do, it isn’t always synonymous with who we are. We’re human, we’re fallible. We all sin. Doesn’t matter what that sin is, we’re all flawed individuals.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?

Don’t know. That’s one of the great mysteries I suppose. That’s a good question for my pastor…maybe I’ll ask.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 9. Does your church actively participate in politics?

Absolutely not. I attend what would be considered a non-demoninational ‘mega’ church and they absolutely totally and unequivocally avoid ALL political talk entirely. Not all churches do, or some flavor things a bit. Not mine. And I like that.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

This nation absolutely was founded on deist principles with Judeo-Christian underpinnings. Don’t forget—and I’ve commented on this many times—while the Founders did want freedom OF religion, they didn’t want a theocracy, but understood clearly that a free people can only govern itself if the people are virtuous. That virtue stemmed not only from Enlightment era intellectualism, but from, gasp, deism. The Founders were deists, that much is clear.

Don’t forget also that RIGHTS as we understand them (or should) are natural God-given rights…they are not granted by or created by man. Associations of men craft government to help protect and secure those rights, but as for the source of origination, there can be no mistake.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story? 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient? 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't? 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists? 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity? 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think? 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote) 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives? 9. Does your church actively participate in politics? 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

Lessee..
1. I believe God may have set it into motion, but evolution has carried it forward from there.
2. I tend to side more with science, so it's sort of a non-issue for me.
3.. What do you mean? The way I see it there are important ones that sort of represent the principles of Christianity (John 3:16, etc), but there are thousands of others that bear little relevance to anything else (like all those ones in Chronicles that are just lists of people and their ancestry.
4. As others have said, that's sort of the definition of faith.
5. I think so. Again, that's what Jesus commanded all his followers to do. I have never tried to press it on people though.
6. I figure they're free to believe (or not) whatever they want.
7. Yes, it goes against what the bible says, but I tend to hate the sinner more (whenever that is an issue). But that's part of human's sinful nature. I should work on this.
8. No idea
9. No
10. Basically what Slider said.

Quoting Slider (Reply 9): Justify it? What need justifying?

I'm talking about the creation story as in, the 6 days to create the world, the 7th to rest. Eve from Adam's rib type things. Do you believe this, and how does one justify or support these beliefs? Not really talking about "creationism." But on that subject, how does one explain dinosaurs, fossils, etc., which predate humans, but certain Christians insist that humans and dinosaurs and prehistoric creatures walked the Earth together.

Quoting Slider (Reply 9): Do you have an example? I don’t and can’t think of anything really where I’ve had a conflict like this.

See above. Christian beliefs, in certain areas, completely negate scientific evidence and psychological study.

Quoting Slider (Reply 9): Example? I don’t know what you might be alluding to, but there are some things that are important to know about the Bible. Instead of selectively picking and choosing, it’s critical to know that there is a chronology of the Bible, primarily Old vs New Testament.

Well, not stoning people in modern days, but having and active political stance against same sex marriage, for one.

Quoting Slider (Reply 9): Don’t forget also that RIGHTS as we understand them (or should) are natural God-given rights…they are not granted by or created by man. Associations of men craft government to help protect and secure those rights, but as for the source of origination, there can be no mistake.

So God gave you the right to own a gun, trial by jury of your peers, protection from search and seizure, excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment (stoning?), powers to the states and people? Those seem all relatively man-made rights as every one of those rights would have no need to exist when the bible was written.

UAL

1. How do you justify the creation story?
I don't take it a a 7 day event but a 7 phase process consisting of periods of time that aren't specifically defined. I don't think creationism is incompatible with science. God gives us the who and why, science gives us how he accomplished it.
2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?
I don't I've never found science to be incompatible with my beliefs.
3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?
Can't speak for other religions but I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. Like the game telephone things get warped over time. I also believe that while there are lessons to be learned from the old testament the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ ushered in a new era so the new testament is what more directly applies to my life. I think it is important to pray and ponder the scriptures you read so that the spirit can guide you understanding the intent.
4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?
I have the proof I need. I personally benefit from my faith that is proof enough. I think it takes more faith to believe that something like our sentience just disappears and ceases to exist when we die. I also think it takes more faith to believe that through a series of incredible accidents the world, life in universe just came into being.
5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?
I feel it is my duty to live my life to the best of my ability and to try to adopt the attributes of Christ. I share what I believe when asked. I don't feel like I have to rescue people from hellfire because they will be damned if they don't believe what I believe, because according to my beliefs they won't be. I think God is perfectly fair and will judge people individually. It's more like I've discovered something good and I want others I care about to also enjoy the blessings that thing brings me. I'm not going to impose my faith on anyone though that is a wasted effort.
6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?
I have several good friends who are atheists. It depends on the type of atheist they are. There are insufferable, arrogant condescending, and hateful atheists and there are tolerant, respectful atheists. I pity the angry hateful kind and I don't believe that they are truly atheists. To have that kind of anger over something you think is imaginary is irrational. The other kind on the I like quite well. Some of my favorite people are atheists. I mainly feel like they are missing out on something that can really enhance their earthly experience.
7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)
Sort of... I don't care for the phrasing. Christianity to me is not about hate period. Hate is the antithesis of what Christ taught. Some warp it by hating but those folks are missing the whole point. The point is to love people the way God does to the best of your ability. But loving doesn't mean accepting sin. You can love someone but not love all their choices. And forgiveness does not mean people should not have to face the consequences of their choices.
8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?
I don't believe that Christians are the only ones going to heaven and I was never taught that. My religion says that God is perfectly fair and will give everyone the opportunity to accept the gift of the atonement. Even those who do not are not condemned.
9. Does your church actively participate in politics?
Not as a collective, although we've been accused of it because the members are pretty politically active as individuals. You will never hear politics discussed from the pulpit. You will never hear the church endorse a candidate.
10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a
Yes, but Christian principles include tolerating and loving those who are not Christian and Christian principles also say that people should be allowed to worship(or not) as they will according to the dictates of their own consciences.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

How dare you contest his existence?! The lamb of god has been spotted countless times on slices of toast!       

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): Christian churches

Several of your points also apply to other religions.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story?

I don't justify it. My guess is that only a small percentage of Christians believe that the Earth was created in 7 days, that Adam and Eve existed, that the Earth is only 6,000 somewhat years old, etc. It is a story that was spread to explain the unexplainable. But the story and its characters are symbolic.

I would hazard that, as a percentage, and possibly a raw number, more Orthodox Jews believe in the literal Creation story than CHristians, but that's a guess.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?

Not sure what you're talking about here. Science is not incompatible with religion. Maybe some examples?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" Einstein.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?

As stated, the Scripture is chronological. For lack of a better term, some parts of the Old Testament are superceded by the New Testament.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

Really? That is what belief in God or some other higher power is. I can't explain it...that's why it's faith.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?

Despite my occasional postings on A-net about my religious beliefs, I'm fairly private in my religious beliefs. I don't proselytize and, quite simply, I'm rather short and abrupt with those that do.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?

I think that this is someone that doesn't believe in God. What else is there to think?

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)

Nope, the sinner is as much a liability as the sin. But, the sinner can change, the sin remains a sin.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?

Well, you can probably relate this to any of the religions that teach a 'higher plane', i.e. Heaven, Paradise, etc. Most of these religions teach that unless you follow the path set out by the religion, you will not reach this 'higher plane'. Going back to a very early literature class where I read Dante's Inferno; Dante writes that those who have never been exposed to Christ can't be saved (according to basic Christian doctrine) and were (are?) relegated to Limbo.

I'm no theologian and I don't necessarily accept all of the tenets of my religion.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 9. Does your church actively participate in politics?

Here, in the US, the various Churches are 'forbidden' from directly participating in politics if they wish to keep their tax-free status. Personally, I feel that this is wrong and contrary to the Constitution's protections of free speech and religion. I understand there are active challenges. I know in other countries, say Greece, for example (I am Greek Orthodox), the Church plays a role in the political game. How active or influential? I don't know.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

Yes, I do. I believe the founding documents and the writings of the founders themselves support that assertion. I don't know much about the religion of the Founders, but my guess is that all were, at a minimum, Deists and that most were Christian. How many were practicing? I don't pretend to know. But, as we may have learned in school, the Church was an important part of life in the 18th century. How could the religious beliefs of the founders not shaped their thoughts, motivations and actions?

Of course, these are the musings of Fr8mech and do not represent the thoughts of anyone else unless cited as such.

[Edited 2010-07-20 13:36:56]

Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 7): There are many things we don't have direct evidence for yet but are inclined to believe because of indirect evidence.

Well this is exactly the point I was trying to make in my comparison. No direct evidence but we are inclined to believe it.

I think many of your questions are well answered above, but there are a few I would like to tackle.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?

This is pretty broad. If you had specific examples it would be easier to answer. But some people ignore certain verses because they do not understand them. Some verses may seem to be ignored when considered in isolation, but when considered in larger context, they are not. Some may be ingored because the person you are seeing is ignorant of that particular verse.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?

Yes. Further, I am going to heaven. I look forward to it. I know others people who cannot make the same statement. I don't want them to go to hell, but that is up to them.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)

I try. It is an easy quote to rattle off in isolation, but when the sin is personally injurious to yourself, it gets difficult. It takes some effort to not only not hate, but to forgive the person that has broken into your car and stolen from you.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?

This is a theolgical question that has been written about and debated for ages. I take my answer from the parable of the talents (Matthew 25 14-30 or Luke 19 11-27). In many modern societies, it is not possible to be completely isolated from all Christian influences or teachings. Even in Iran, the Christian church is growing. In those rare circumstances where an individual has gone through thier entire life with out any Christian influence, I believe they will be judged by what was available to them. For example, in the US, most people have access to the internet, radio, television, public libraries, and/or a variety of churches. It would be pretty difficult for most Americans to say with complete honesty they have never heard anything about Christianity. If there is some undiscovered tribe deep in the Amazon that has never had contact with the outside world, I believed they will be judged by the resources avialable to them.

You will get difference of opinion from various denominations.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11): I'm talking about the creation story as in, the 6 days to create the world, the 7th to rest. Eve from Adam's rib type things. Do you believe this, and how does one justify or support these beliefs? Not really talking about "creationism." But on that subject, how does one explain dinosaurs, fossils, etc., which predate humans, but certain Christians insist that humans and dinosaurs and prehistoric creatures walked the Earth together.

I don’t know how the literal, died in the wool creationists justify or explain it, because I’ve never really been around someone who believed that. I shared what my thoughts are. I don’t see evolution/scientific biology and my Christian beliefs in conflict; a human soul separates us from the animals.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11): Well, not stoning people in modern days, but having and active political stance against same sex marriage, for one.

I think one can have a political stance against it and still delineate sin vs sinner as previously stated. Plus, marriage is seen as a spiritual and religious sacrament, not merely a civil union. So even the semantic argument aside, I think it’s that aspect of equating the two that spools so many of the so-called ‘religious right’ up. At least that’s my thought.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 11): So God gave you the right to own a gun, trial by jury of your peers, protection from search and seizure, excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment (stoning?), powers to the states and people? Those seem all relatively man-made rights as every one of those rights would have no need to exist when the bible was written.

Well, let’s break that down. I’ve explored the concept of natural rights elsewhere in this forum extensively. All of those things above speak to individual liberty by and large—the right to defend yourself and your property is a natural right that existed long before a firearm existed. Search and seizure similarly. Cruel/unusual punishment nd notions of ‘proportional and just’ punishment were concepts the Romans debated.

So politically, the preservation of a man’s right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, as so famously penned, was a revolutionary codification of hundreds of years of Enlightment theory that had never truly been tested until the USA. But those rights stem from a Creator and he acknowledgement of that HAS to be foundational in order to maintain a free and virtuous society.

Quoting Slider (Reply 17): So politically, the preservation of a man’s right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, as so famously penned, was a revolutionary codification of hundreds of years of Enlightment theory that had never truly been tested until the USA. But those rights stem from a Creator and he acknowledgement of that HAS to be foundational in order to maintain a free and virtuous society.

Interesting view, but do you think that the founding fathers would not have come to the same view if they were not Christian?

Quoting kaitak (Reply 8): 6. Again, a similar answer to No.5, above. Just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they are amoral. Indeed, their ethics and way of life can be very much healthier than the Christian way of life. 8. I never bought that line. To me, living a good life and optimising one's potential as a human being are the most important things and anyone - Christian or not - can do this.

You, sir, are one modern Christian. Welcome to my Respected Members list.   

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

I ask myself this question. The thing is that how can we believe in something of which there's nothing to suggest exists? Souls...has anyone even seen a soul? What is a soul anyway? I'd rather have faith in something that might be within reach. An AIDS vaccine or the cure for diabetes. At least there's proof that it is being worked on.

Please pardon the attempted brevity. I'm posting this on an iphone remoted into a desktop :-/

1. How do you justify the creation story?
Lets see - God created the Earth. That means he created everything on it, in it, etc. Why couldn't he have created items that were already partially "decayed" in order to create a balance? This is where, in my opinion, the theory of the Earth being x billion years old runs into trouble, especially when the one who believes that also believe that God is all-powerful. While the Earth may not have been created in 7 days (may have been phases, symbolic, etc), I think God did create it. This does not exclude evolution - it is obvious evolution is out there - I just don't think we all came from single cells or apes or whatever.

2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?
See above as an example - I don't think science is the end all answer to everything. It certainly explains a lot and has for the mmost part seemed to be true. We constantly revise science - so maybe the science of some particular thing is incorrect? Remember how the Earth was assumed to be the center of the universe? Just recently the proton was discovered to be 4% smaller than originally thought. Science is not infallible.

3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?
Examples? Please understand though that the Old Testament and New Testament are "in order" - i.e. commands in the New Testament sometimes replace commands in the old.

4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?
No scientific proof. I have seen stuff happen in my own life, though, that I can only explain as God taking care of me.

5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?
To an extent. Do I think I need to stand on a street corner saying you're going to hell if you don't repent? No. Do I harrass my co-workers or friends? No. Some have asked me what I believe, and I tell them and invite them to visit my church. They politely decline, and it ends there.

6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?
As in what do I define atheism as? People who know the ideas behind Christianity but choose to reject it and any other "higher power" based religion.

7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)
We all sin, I am just as bad, in God's eyes, as the terrorists in 9/11. Of course there is a social hate - we can't stand murderers - but one sin is enough to condemn you to hell - so in effect we are all "just as bad". So in that sense, yes, I do hate the sin but not the sinner.

8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?
See question 5. I believe that inside every person there is a "seed", if you will, making them question things, yet it is not enough to "save" them (hate that phrase). This is where the difference between Q 5 and this come in to play. People in the remote reaches of Africa that have not had other human contact may not know about Christianity and thus need to be reached by missionaries, etc. Yet for every one of us, we all know the basic story - hence why I do not badger my co-workers.

9. Does your church actively participate in politics?
No. And I do not like it when churches do. Government and church should be totally separate. While I do not agree with abortion and similar practices, and will certainly vote for people who are against those practices because I believe it is morally, on a basic human level, very wrong, I do not think the church should be out there dictating the views their members should have.

For instance, I believe homosexuality is wrong. (insert GASP, kill me, world ending, etc responses here). Does that mean that I think gay marriage should be outlawed, any gay activities banned, etc? No. Christians should live life as the Bible dictates, but in my opinion, largely stay out of the lives of others and not badger them. Christ spent time with the tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. I don't see why the church shouldn't model that behavior (I'm not saying embrace it and welcome it into the church as the norm - but don't treat people like aliens).

10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?
Do we, as a nation, have similar views on some topics that Christians in general share? Sure. Do I think we should continue sharing those similar morals? Yes. Do I think the Christian church should dictate to the government how policies should be implemented or enforced? No.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 20): Christ spent time with the tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. I don't see why the church shouldn't model that behavior (I'm not saying embrace it and welcome it into the church as the norm - but don't treat people like aliens).

Do you ever stop to think that equating Jesus spending time with prostitutes reason not to treat homosexuals like aliens might be offensive to homosexual people?

I see this type of comparison, and the "Hate the sin not the sinner." used often when referring to homosexuals. Being gay, I cringe every time I hear it because you take something that 99.99% of the gay community feels (and by feels, I mean they have lived it), is something natural that happened to them, and call us sinners and the moral equals of prostitutes. It's like a slap in the face, but you feel you aren't slapping because of the way you phrase it.

I think the problem I have with faith, is that it's blind faith. Faith in something that you really have no idea what it is, but faith in something that has been taught to you by people with possibly their own agendas. It's the most blatant and dangerous form of indoctrination. (Not just Christians here). And you are lead to believe that you must to anything for that blind faith. And at times, that "anything" becomes dangerous. Pastors and Preachers have more power than Kings and Presidents, I do believe.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 21): I cringe every time I hear it because you take something that 99.99% of the gay community feels (and by feels, I mean they have lived it), is something natural that happened to them, and call us sinners and the moral equals of prostitutes.

In that respect, there is no difference between you and I. We are both sinners. Any Christian who says he or she is not a sinner is deluding themself as to human nature. There is not a single day that I have been perfect, I can only try to do better than the previous day.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 21): Jesus spending time with prostitutes

I'm pretty sure with > 90% of this site, prostitutes are quite welcome.  


....... ok I'll stop kidding around.

You do have a point there. Yet, at the same time, tell me what you would have me believe (hypothetically speaking) when the Bible states that homosexuality is wrong and I personally believe the Bible is not wrong?

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 21): and the moral equals of prostitutes.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 20): so in effect we are all "just as bad".

Did I not just say I am the moral equal of a prostitute too? No matter how you slice the cake, Christians should admit that they are just as sinful as the next guy/girl.


Just wondering, which do you find more repulsive:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 20): For instance, I believe homosexuality is wrong.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 20): Christ spent time with the tax collectors, prostitutes, etc. I don't see why the church shouldn't model that behavior [regarding homosexuality]

Is it me believing that homosexuality is wrong, or is it me equating your actions with the actions of what the Bible clearly states as sinful in that context I quoted?

Also - maybe I should clarify - by "model that behavior" I don't mean that they should act in a demeaning manor. I mean treating homosexuals as any other John Doe you meet on the street. Just because my friend of 35 years tells me he's gay does not mean I should treat him differently.

So what I meant was that look, Jesus spent time with prostitutes, etc, and treated them as normal human beings and I think the church and Christians should do the same. And I say that because in the past, and sometimes presently, they have not done that. I don't see any "slap in the face" there - if I am missing something, please, please do tell me.

[Edited 2010-07-20 16:14:43]

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 21): Do you ever stop to think that equating Jesus spending time with prostitutes reason not to treat homosexuals like aliens might be offensive to homosexual people?

It could just as well be offensive to prostitutes.

Point being, everyone can be offended by something.

Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with the analogy, even though I don't follow those beliefs. If, in their view, a prostitute is at the same "level" as a homosexual, then I suppose it makes sense to relate them.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 21): moral equals of prostitutes

Far as I'm concerned, gay people are the moral equivalents of prostitutes. As are straight people. As are you. As am I.

I'm just saying all this with the intention of suggesting that what he wrote isn't as bad as you probably took it.

OK, my take. I am Catholic.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story?

I think many people raised to believe that creation means instant creation might find their beliefs under attack to say that their whole understanding of it is wrong. As far as I'm concerned? The big bang--doesn't go against my belief in my head, what is more "Godly" than the universe simply exploding into being? Evolution? I read the Bible, I don't see why so many people think evolution can't fit in with creation by God. Who said God didn't make many species evolve?

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?

Like what? I explained the 2 biggies above. I can't think of much else...

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?

I do not know what you are referring to... I know a lot of Old Testiment verses/traditions are obsolete due to the New Testiment (like sacrifice for example)

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

Call it coincidence, but there are times where I feel completely desperate, I pray, and it all works out. Sure that is not proof at all, but faith is not proof.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?

Yes. NOT OBNOXIOUSLY. I've helped people who have come to me, but I respect others' opinions and actions.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?

Do not believe in God... and further more, I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE GOING TO HELL. That, as I was taught and I wish many others would remember, is God's call. We could all be going to Hell, or we could all be going to Heaven. I do not judge. I honestly hope no one goes to hell. Even Hitler, even OBL, because no matter how messed up someone is, an eternity of pain and suffering is something I hope no one ever goes through.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)

I hate sin. Sinners may bother me, but why should I hate someone when I sin myself? Enough said...

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?

Not up to me to decide. I hope I have it right. I believe God will have mercy on other people based on their actions. I know some great atheists that I hope to see in Heaven one day.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 9. Does your church actively participate in politics?

No, they just pray and sometimes do abortion marches. Nothin very vocal, never violent. All peaceful.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

Well, yes, I do believe it was founded on mostly Christain principles, but that includes liberty. Liberty for you to be whatever religion you want and do whatever you want as long as it doesn't harm others. I can't control your actions or relationship with God. I do hope that goes both ways, and religion will be protected in the future. I believe that most religions can co-exist with each other if they truely obey their principles. Even Muslims, I know they are taught to be peaceful people in the Koran.

Question #4...Faith, while no proof exists, their is also no proof a God does not exist...wouldn't you like to have been right?

Question #5...No , I don't believe you should force your religious beliefs on anyone else...ever! Keep it to yourself and recognize others to enjoy their beliefs

Question #8...If heaven and Hell exist...no matter what you believe, if God is fair and just as preached, than he will accept all that have been fair and just

Question #10...Yes, I believe that the US was founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs and that is what has encouraged our success in our short history. It has made us for the most part a kind and generous people. Unfortunetely, I can't say the same for the past and current performance of the US government.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 15): Quoting AKiss20 (Reply 7): There are many things we don't have direct evidence for yet but are inclined to believe because of indirect evidence. Well this is exactly the point I was trying to make in my comparison. No direct evidence but we are inclined to believe it.

Did you miss the indirect evidence part...? There is no evidence whatsoever, direct or indirect, for a god of any form, yet many many believe it. There is tons of evidence that indicates there is dark matter, but no direct evidence as of yet.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story? 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient? 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't? 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists? 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity? 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think? 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote) 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives? 9. Does your church actively participate in politics? 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

1. What is 7 days and 7 nights to God?
2. I don't denounce science and I think the two are not mutually exclusive.
3. reference please?
4. Evidence that it exists depends on the individual's faith.
5. No
6. Unenlightened
7. People are by nature sinners. You can't have one without the other.
8. No. Whoever said there aren't multiple roads to the same finish line?
9. No.
10. Yes/ no.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 21): and call us sinners and the moral equals of prostitutes.

Technically, you're just as much as a sinner as the average Christian. If anyone tells you otherwise, you can tell em they are full of crap. If that confuses you, then I suggest you re-read that particular portion of the Bible. It's pretty strait forward in that regard.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25): I honestly hope no one goes to hell. Even Hitler, even OBL, because no matter how messed up someone is, an eternity of pain and suffering is something I hope no one ever goes through.

My personal theory about "hell" basically it will be an emotional construct where one realizes the full consequences of their actions and feels the pain they caused others.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 3): Of course I've made up my mind, as have the Christians I'm asking. Doesn't mean it's not worthy of discussing and debating....

But yet sounds like you are trying to create an argument.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story? 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient? 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't? 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists? 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity? 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think? 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote) 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives? 9. Does your church actively participate in politics? 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

1. How do you justify any other theory? Bing Bang? Ooze Crystals? Richard Dawkins Rambling?
2. Not all science denounces Christianity. Just as much proves it. So your bias is just sticking to one side of the pendillum  
3. I do not ignore any verses over another. Some may but then they are not keeping the integrity of Scripture.
4. Faith is faith. And do you have overwhelming proof that He doesnt?
5. Yes. Not force Christianity down throats though.
6. Unbeliever in any diety.
7. Yes I hate the sin and not the sinner. If I hated the sinner I would be hating all of the human race seeing as the whole human race sins  
8. Hell.
9. No
10. I believe it was founded on Christian morals but in no way are Chrisitans to force laws on unbelievers that cause pain and discrimination such as banning gay marriage. I dissagree with the LDS Church and all Christians who try to force this law. It is VERY un-Christian like.

I am a devoted Christian (non-LDS and non-Catholic).

The slant of your questions is obvious; honestly, it's borderline flamebait. Seems like question # 11 would be "Who do you think you are?"   

1) Who said science and religion can't go together hand-in-hand? Who actively preaches such nonsense? Not 99.999% of Christianity, that's who.
2) Who said science and religion can't go together hand-in-hand? Who actively preaches such nonsense? Not 99.999% of Christianity, that's who.
3) Who does? The Bible may be the word of God, but that doesn't mean its mortal interpretation is flawless. Quite the contrary, in fact.
4) I suggest you familiarize yourself with the definition of "faith"
5) Absolutely. I feel I am the best ambassador of my faith when I exemplify Christ's teachings through my words and--most importantly--my actions. Walk the walk, so to speak.
6) I feel sad. It's a sad word to me. "I don't see it, I'm not affected by it, I have no proof of its existence--therefore it doesn't exist." I mean honestly, how would you feel if people scoffed at you for something important to you that they thought was silly or narrow-minded? It's almost impossible to argue with an atheist, because the argument almost always devolves into something along the lines of "I'm enlightened, rational, and a free-thinker; you're an ignorant fool."
7) As a human, I have biases and prejudices, just as all people. Do I hate some "sinners" (as we are all "sinners")? Of course. Should I? No. I try to take a balanced approach and realize that although someone commits a sin and/or a moral wrong, they are still human--with thoughts and feelings of their own, and it's hard to outright "hate" someone from this rational viewpoint. You may dislike it as a hackneyed expression, but like many catchphrases, a grain of truth lies therein.
8) No. This is a hard-line Southern Baptist stance (since that seems to be where you're coming from) and I disagree. Heaven with only Southern Baptists suddenly doesn't sound all that appealing     
9) No. Not at all.
10) There's really little doubt that the nation was founded (at least partially) on Christian principles. Would I LIKE America to be a Christian nation? Sure. I'd also like them all to appreciate the musical stylings of Charlie Parker. I realize that diversity in religion is one of the many things that makes America a great nation. When it comes to religion and policy, I think the government should be as neutral as possible. I think that government legislation involving religious beliefs/traditions can only be a BAD THING. As Christians, we are taught to respect the laws of the land.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story? 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient? 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't? 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists? 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity? 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think? 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote) 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives? 9. Does your church actively participate in politics? 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

1. My belief is that it was started by God, and science and evolution is how he did it.
2. Read response to #1
3. Different interpretations.
4. That is the whole point of having faith.
5. No it is not my duty, and it is not your duty to tell me I am wrong, it is called mutual respect.
6. If you are happy, and you treat others wit respect, it is not my job to tell you how to live your life.
7. I don't hate anyone, except Lady Gaga! Oh, and the fruit bat I was married to.
8. I believe their fate will be decided by what ever they believe in. I never said there was only one,"Heaven".
9. I don't mix church and politics, I think for myself.
10. I think that forcing religion on anyone is wrong, but so is trying to make a foriegn language or culture, the primary of any place in the US.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 1. How do you justify the creation story?

Well, i'm not literally taking it as 7 (or 6) days, afterall many things in the Bible are symbolic. 7 is an important number in Christianity, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_(number)#Christianity Whether it be 7 days, 7 years, 7 time-units doesn't matter me. For me, the most important is that God created Earth etc. and how he did it, by means of pure creation or by leading evolution isn't important.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?

See earlier answers, science isn't incompatible with Christianity. Maybe you mean the creation story and the lack of 'proof' of it, but then the evolution story is much more unlikely.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?

There's an order in the bible.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?

Isn't that the core of all faith?

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?

Of course, but it depends on what scale. You won't see me screaming in public on the streets, but in close relations likely family and friends there yes!

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?

It's up to them what to (not) believe, I'm not forcing my belief on anyone else, but they shouldn't force their unbelief on anyone else as well.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)

Of course!

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?

It's not up to me to decide the fate of other persons, see John 8 versus 7.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 9. Does your church actively participate in politics?

I know some of our politicians are going to my church, but withstanding that no my church does not participate in politics.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter): 10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?

I have no idea about the US and it doesn't interest me.  

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23): So what I meant was that look, Jesus spent time with prostitutes, etc, and treated them as normal human beings and I think the church and Christians should do the same.

I agree completely. But Jesus didn't say to the prostitutes, go on and prostitute further.

I am a Catholic. Let me see what I think.

1. How do you justify the creation story?
I don't need to justify it.

2. How do you denounce science when it goes against your religious beliefs? Do you not find that convenient?
Science is not absolute. It explains only finite phenomenon.

3. Why are certain verses ignored when others aren't?
Bible was written by man and translated. Everything cannot be taken literally.

4. How can you have faith in something that there is no proof exists?
Everything cannot be proved. you just have a gut feeling sometimes.

5. Do you feel that it is your duty to spread Christianity?
If anybody needs it.

6. When you hear atheist, what do you think?
Well I was one for sometime, I know exactly how one thinks.

7. Do you hate the sin and not the sinner? (I honestly hate this quote)
Yes, it is not good to hate somebody. You should be able to forgive atleast after a long period of time.

8. If Christians are the only ones going to heaven, as taught, then what about the poor souls that grew up in India or Japan who have been taught completely different religious beliefs that will never have any Christian influences in their lives?
I grew up in India. Here my belief is slightly different from traditional. God created people, all of them for a reason, I don't think he would discriminate them.

9. Does your church actively participate in politics?
Nope. I think religion should be kept at personal level.

10. Do you believe that this Nation was founded on Christian principles and/or should be a Christian Nation?
Nope for the second part. Enforcing one religious view to the masses is not the correct approach. People should genuinely and voluntarily pursue their faith. And whatever faith they have should be used only for peace and betterment of mankind all over the world. Tolerance and humility is very important as a Christian.



[Edited 2010-07-24 05:26:22]