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racko
Topic Author
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:34 am

Watching this press conference, I wouldn't mind seeing all of them going to jail. Who the hell put these idiots in charge?!
 
TheSonntag
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:37 am

I just hope that they finally realise how rediculous those fences are. They used fences for the first time ever at Rhein in Flammen in Bonn, so that they could sell the booze at a higher profit.

Fences DO NOT BELONG to events with millions of people.
 
racko
Topic Author
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:41 am

The police president makes it sound as if everything was perfectly fine and the 350 people just choose to be injured/killed. How can someone seriously claim that "there was enough space" when everybody has seen the pictures.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6191
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:25 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 47):
From a legal point of view, there are many people which in the end could be held responsible:

Out of curiousity, what are the rules in Germany for events such as this?

After Roskilde 2000, rules were tightened pretty hard here in Denmark, so event organisers and the local authorities are now required to carry out a risk assessment prior to any event. And I seriously doubt a free-to-attend event such as this would go forth in these kind of circumstances, with only a single entrance/exit and no way of controlling how many people are going to turn up.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:38 am

Quoting racko (Reply 50):
Watching this press conference, I wouldn't mind seeing all of them going to jail. Who the hell put these idiots in charge?!

If they had a conference BEFORE the event, you could have probably seen Euro signs in the eyes of at least the organisers and the mayor.

Jan
 
Airport
Posts: 545
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:48 am

Quoting racko (Reply 52):
How can someone seriously claim that "there was enough space" when everybody has seen the pictures.

No kidding.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/img/2010/glance/loveparade/crush.jpg

I'm trying to think of all the types of disasters in the world that cause massive amounts of human casualties in one fell swoop -- few seem more utterly terrifying to me than the idea of being stuck in a gigantic crowd of people in an enclosed space with not enough room, during a mass panic. The crushing weight of all those around you, gasping for the little oxygen there is, and the stench of sweat and death in the air, and the total unpredictability of the crowd...

That is utterly terrifying to me. May the dead rest in peace.

Anthony/Airport
 
TheSonntag
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Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 11:56 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 53):

Out of curiousity, what are the rules in Germany for events such as this?

The framework is quite complex, and I have asked myself the same question. I will look at it and come back with an answer later (I might need it for my law exam anyway).

It is complicated, because most rules are made by the "Länder". This means the legal framework is different in each member state.
 
ltbewr
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:23 pm

From the Hajj to this Love Parade event, far too often we see mass group disasters with numerous deaths and injuries due to panic, poor crowd managment and too many people trying to get into a limited space.

With over 19 dead and over 340 injured, this may mean kaput for such events in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. From reports on this and as to recent past events, the Love Parade has become too large, more of a money maker to the promoters and long distant from it's original meaning. It may be it's time has past and just live on in memories or evolve into a more commercially controled, smaller and paid admission event in a proper facility.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:33 pm

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 57):

With over 19 dead and over 340 injured, this may mean kaput for such events in Germany and elsewhere in Europe.

Not necessarily. Events with one million people are common in germany. You regularly have so many people at:

1. Cologne Carnival (spread over the city, though, with only some neuralgic points).
2. Octoberfest
3. "Cologne Lights Fireworks" (spread accross the rhine)
4. Christopher Street Day Gay parade in Cologne (again spread over the city)

just to name a few events. Add some big festivals like Rock am Rhing to it.

Nothing has happened at those partys the last years. In Berlin, 1,7 million ppl. attended the Loveparade without issues. But there were many more escape possibilities there. Just recently there was public viewing at this place again with many hundred thousand people.

I just cannot recall another event with a single entrance through a concrete tunnel like yesterday, though.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:49 pm

Another big event is the "Nature One" techno party at a former USAF cruise missile base near the Hunsrück smalltown of Kastellaun.

Jan
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4164
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:58 pm

Quoting Airport (Reply 55):


OMG, quite apart from the awful disaster, I'd be petrified if I were to find myself in a crowd of that magnitude. Terribly claustrofic.
 
iliribdl
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:34 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:04 pm

So heard the LP officials said there will be no more Love Parades in the future.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:07 pm

I didn't see the press conference this noon but it must have been a joke judging from what I heard on WDR 2 and from what I have read on derwesten.de. Not that I expected anything else, nobody wants to be resposible now.

Patrick
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:53 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 62):
I didn't see the press conference this noon but it must have been a joke judging from what I heard on WDR 2 and from what I have read on derwesten.de. Not that I expected anything else, nobody wants to be resposible now.

It was a joke, because the people will be held responsible. I have no problem if the mayor says, I cannot say much due to the ongoing criminal investigation.

I would have liked to hear an apology, though. The mayor could and should have taken the responsibility, even if he limited it to a morale responsibility, like Fritz Pleitgen, organisator of the cultural events, did.
 
racko
Topic Author
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:57 pm

The problem is not the amount of people itself, but rather the crazy idea to have all of them go through this tunnel, and then making them wait in the tunnel.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:08 pm

I can only shake my head after watching some special reports tonight. The organizers and the officials at the city of Duisburg were warned several times by locals and by the police union, all of them said that the area is too small to host so many people and that the tunnel where it happened is the biggest danger. All these warnings were ignored by the officials!

I really, really hope that a court will find the people who are responsible for this. Then they hopefully get the bills from the police, the hospitals and the rescue teams and - of course - a jail term (and when they can't pay the aforementioned bills, they should even get a longer jail term). Additionally I hope that the relatives of the killed and all the injured people will sue the shit out of them (and when they can't pay these people, they should stay in jail for even loger). These fuckers ignored all safety concerns because they just had Euro signs in their eyes!

I am ashamed that such a tragedy happened here in Germany (especially here in North-Rhine Westphalia). Usually we are quite good in organizing and hosting mass events like that, unfortunaltely we held morons and losers responsible for such an event this time.

Patrick
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:48 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 65):
Usually we are quite good in organizing and hosting mass events like that,

  

To be honest I feel this accident as a national humilation, because organising big events safely and efficient, especially in North Rhine Westfalia, is one of the things Germany usually is one of the best country in the worlds for. Many events take place in Germany simply because we are used to organising such big events perfectly.

Therefore, this tragedy also has impacts on the German reputation in the world. This and the collapse of the building of the historical archive of the City of Cologne last year due to incompetence when building a subway really are appalling, because these scandals are very dangerous for germanys reputation. After all we cannot compete on international markets with prices and the like, but with safety, efficiency and good organisation.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:02 pm

Bild.de is reporting that another Love Parade visitor died in hospital today, it is a 21 year old German women.  

Patrick
 
na
Posts: 9935
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:50 pm

It appears this was the fault of amateurs who knew that much more would come than the festical place could hold. The behavior of the responsible is appalling. The company which organised it has "disappeared" according to media reports. Now its said they were insured for 7 million Euros- experts say a few hundred millions would have been appropriate. Then the mayor of Duisburg signed only hours before the event, because there were safety issues.

Another report says that all people found dead died because their breasts were squeezed, and that no one fell down from stairs or something. How do those thousands feel who stepped over and onto those poor people and thus killed them?
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:25 pm

Quoting na (Reply 68):
It appears this was the fault of amateurs who knew that much more would come than the festical place could hold.

Absolutely right! Furthermore did they ignore warnings from the police union, locals who know the tunnel, and the professional fire brigade of Duisburg.

Quoting na (Reply 68):
Now its said they were insured for 7 million Euros- experts say a few hundred millions would have been appropriate.

The more they have to pay from their own pockets, the better! If they can't pay, well, then they have to go to jail! Easy solution!

Quoting na (Reply 68):
How do those thousands feel who stepped over and onto those poor people and thus killed them?

I would say that you can't blame all these people. There was a mass-panic and everyone wanted to leave the area as fast as possible to survive. I can't say how I had react when I had been there with my girlfriend (we have actually planned to go there).

I just read on Bundesliga.de that the MSV Duisburg is planning a benefit game. The opponent team will be Schalke 04, Schalke's coach Felix Magath immediately agreed when the MSV asked him today. I think I will go there, seeing Schalke losing and helping the victims is actually a good idea.

Patrick
 
aero145
Posts: 2859
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:49 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 69):
I can't say how I had react when I had been there with my girlfriend

Or how we had reacted if we knew you were there and didn’t know if you were okay!
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:02 pm

Quoting aero145 (Reply 70):
Or how we had reacted if we knew you were there and didn’t know if you were okay!

There was a death notice of a 33 year old guy in our local newspaper today, the notice had a remark like "Nothing will be like it was before the last weekend". I am wondering if he was one of the Love Parade victims.

Patrick
 
aero145
Posts: 2859
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:33 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 71):
There was a death notice of a 33 year old guy in our local newspaper today, the notice had a remark like "Nothing will be like it was before the last weekend". I am wondering if he was one of the Love Parade victims.

33?! Damn! Well, in the end you didn’t go.  
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:49 pm

I just talked to a girl I went to class with many years ago on MSN. I asked her whether she went to Loveparade because she usually attends techno partys (she regularly goes to nature one).

She told me she was IN THE TUNNEL when it happened. She said she saw people lying on the ground, and people who were re-animated while she went pass them. She said it was totally overcrowded and she was just happy when she came out.

I am surely glad she is alive, she was not harmed. Scary.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:24 pm

One thing an enclosed area does for the event organisers:
Unlike in an open area (e.g. Berlin´s Tiergarten park, where the love parade was held for the first few years), the visitors are forced to buy food and drinks from dealers, who paid a hefty licencing fee to the organisers. With an open area, they can just drift off to the nearest supermarket or Kebab shop.
So I´m quite sure that the organisers liked the idea of an enclosed area with just one entrance.
And the mayor was probably thinking about the image of Duisburg as a cultural center (it used to be a steel mill town, with lots of unemployed since the last steel mills got closed in the 1980s and dismanteled and brought to China).
All of them were primarely interested in €€€.

Jan
 
TheSonntag
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RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:38 am

Another victim died today. 21 dead now   More than 500 injured. And no one who publicly says I am responsible.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:27 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 73):
She told me she was IN THE TUNNEL when it happened. She said she saw people lying on the ground, and people who were re-animated while she went pass them.

I am glad that nothing happened to her! Must have been a horrible experience, you want to go to a party but then you see dead and heavily injured people instead.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 75):
Another victim died today. 21 dead now More than 500 injured.

Sad! I hope that this was the last victim!

Patrick
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:25 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 75):
And no one who publicly says I am responsible.

Duisburg's major isn't the only one responsible, but he clearly missed his chance to take his hat and leave office.
Here's a nice, very "readable" comment by Michael Spreng:

http://www.sprengsatz.de/?p=3451
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:18 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 76):

Sad! I hope that this was the last victim!

Me too. actually already yesterday the Staatsanwaltschaft said, everyone is out of immediate danger. Obviously wrong, otherwise we would not have another one dying today.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:33 pm

According to blaulichtreporter.de has another Loveparade visitor died (no confirmed):

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3543/loveparade.jpg

The victim is apparently from the Ennepe-Ruhr Kreis. I hope that it is nobody that I know! I was born in Hattingen and lived there for 10 years, then I lived 20 years in Sprockhövel, and now I am living in Gevelsberg (all three cities belong to the EN-Kreis).

Patrick
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:10 pm

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 79):
blaulichtreporter.de

Did they enter a competition for tactlessness?
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:41 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 80):
Did they enter a competition for tactlessness?

The camera guys from this website are indeed a bit unscrupulous. A friend whose parents own a funeral home almost kicked one of their reporter's ass once.

Patrick
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:39 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 80):
Did they enter a competition for tactlessness?

"Bild-Leserreporter" on the loose.   
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 am

The people are fed up with the blame game and taking to the streets:

http://www.rp-online.de/niederrheinn...ration-in-Duisburg_aid_887468.html
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:43 pm

I am currently watching Spiegel TV, the mobile phone videos from the Love Parade visitors they just showed there were nothing but unbelievable. Now I can give you an answer to this:

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 69):
Quoting na (Reply 68):
How do those thousands feel who stepped over and onto those poor people and thus killed them?

I would say that you can't blame all these people. There was a mass-panic and everyone wanted to leave the area as fast as possible to survive. I can't say how I had react when I had been there with my girlfriend (we have actually planned to go there).

When I'd been there with my girlfriend, I'd beaten, kicked, even killed someone to get us out there! So much is for sure!

Patrick
 
aero145
Posts: 2859
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:05 am

Patrick, could you somehow link us to those videos, if you know where they are?

Thanks in advance
D
 
 
aero145
Posts: 2859
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:59 am

RE: 10 Dead, 30+ Injured At Love Parade

Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:23 am

Thanks NoUFO.

The first thing I though after starting watching this was: Ach d’ Sche***!!!

One must really see it to be able to believe how it was. Horrendous!

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