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dxing
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Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:24 pm

The first of 3 States to have ballot propositions asking whether voters agree with the federal mandate to purchase insurance overwhemingly voted against that mandate yesterday.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/g...c-564c-5c70-8d90-dfd25ae6de56.html

Missouri voters on Tuesday overwhelmingly rejected a federal mandate to purchase health insurance, rebuking President Barack Obama's administration and giving Republicans their first political victory in a national campaign to overturn the controversial health care law passed by Congress in March.


Congratulations to the voters of Missouri, but the battle is not won, let's go to court. We'll also find out how serious the democrats were when they said that States could "opt out" if they decided too.
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sleekjet
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:26 pm

Kudos to the "Show Me" state. Take that, Mr. Obama!
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
PhilGil
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:14 pm

Before the chest pounding from the right begins in earnest, I'd like to point out that many liberals are also opposed to a mandate to buy insurance from private corporations. They would have much preferred a single-payer plan or at least a public option.
 
avent
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:29 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
The first of 3 States to have ballot propositions asking whether voters agree with the federal mandate to purchase insurance overwhemingly voted against that mandate yesterday.

So the voters rejected a mandate gutted and destroyed by the Republicans so it was marginally useful.

I'd probably vote against it myself.
 
sw733
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:32 pm

As I currently live in metro-Kansas City (albeit on the Kansas side), I was curious how this would turn out and kept my eye on it yesterday and last night. I expected the result, but not necessarily how it really was not even very close...I expected maybe a 55-45 victory, but not this much.

I would be curious how this vote would turn out in Missouri vs. California vs. Alaska vs. Florida, etc.
 
dxing
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:39 pm

Quoting avent (Reply 3):
So the voters rejected a mandate gutted and destroyed by the Republicans so it was marginally useful.

Since this junk legislation was passed without a single GOP vote that statement rings completely hollow. The democrats did not need GOP support to pass anything, Their problem was with their own conservative (term applied loosely) members as well as with those that saw the handwriting on the wall last August.
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avent
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:55 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 5):
So the voters rejected a mandate gutted and destroyed by the Republicans so it was marginally useful.

Since this junk legislation was passed without a single GOP vote that statement rings completely hollow. The democrats did not need GOP support to pass anything, Their problem was with their own conservative (term applied loosely) members as well as with those that saw the handwriting on the wall last August.

It's not hollow since it is true the legislation was gutted and watered down in an environement driven by rightwing hysteria over it being socialism, and where Republicans were intent on playing the role of spoilers - hence the zero cooperation form the republican 'patriots.'

Believe what you wish - no need to read this topic further.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:16 pm

And in other news, the Supreme Court will soon vote 7-2 or so that federal law supersedes state law, as it has for the past few centuries.
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dxing
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:04 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
And in other news, the Supreme Court will soon vote 7-2 or so that federal law supersedes state law, as it has for the past few centuries.

I agree, but it will keep the issue in the forefront and we have until 2014 to gut this Unconstitutional part of the junk legislation. In addition it will also be a great test to the dems assertion that if States wanted to "opt out" they would be allowed too.

Quoting avent (Reply 6):
Believe what you wish -

You're welcome to continue the fairytale that the GOP could have stopped this. The resounding defeat of mandated insurance ought to be a wake up call but slumber on if you wish. It will be interesting to see if and when more States put this on the ballot and mandated insurance suffers the same fate, if the politicians in D.C. still want to avoid revisiting the issue.
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PhilGil
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:53 pm

Trying to blame the unpopular health care reform bill on one party or the other is far too simplistic and is not the way politics work in the US. Here's a short history of how it all came about (I may have a few events out of order)...

Over the last decade, health insurance costs had been increasing at a far higher rate than inflation. Businesses (the primary providers of health insurance in the US) were passing on an increasing share of healthcare costs to their employees. In addition, millions of people were falling through the cracks in the system – unable to obtain private insurance and unable to qualify for government healthcare assistance. As the economy weakened, millions more Americans faced the prospect of losing not only their jobs, but their healthcare.

Obama won the presidential election handily, in part because of a campaign promise to provide near-universal health coverage for all Americans.

After the inauguration, the Obama administration chose to allow Congress to craft its own healthcare reform proposals, while providing only a broad outline of what the President would like to see in the bill he'd eventually sign. The resulting legislation, particularly the Senate bill, had a lot of content proposed by moderate Republicans, as the Democratic leadership hoped to secure the votes of (at least) Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins.

It became obvious to the Senate leadership that attempts to get Republican moderates onboard had failed, and worse yet, the Republican leadership would filibuster the legislation. To break the filibuster required the support of every Democrat in the Senate plus independent Joe Lieberman. In order to secure the votes of Lieberman and wavering conservative Democrats the public option was dropped from the final Senate bill. The Obama administration took a visible role in the “negotiations”, basically telling the Senate leadership to give Joe Lieberman anything he wanted.

Abandoning the public option was more than most liberal Democrats (the base of the party and strong supporters of healthcare reform) could take, and when they began to complain were told by Rahm Emmanuel to “sit down and shut up.” So they did, and the remainder of the debate was framed by Republicans and other opponents of the legislation.

In the midst of all this came the special election in Massachusetts to fill Ted Kennedy’s seat. When a Republican won a safe Democratic seat, it was widely reported by the corporate media as a referendum on health care reform, with an overwhelmingly “no” vote. The reality was far more complex, but if it can’t be compressed to a 30-second report the media is not interested.

Emboldened by the “analysis” of the win in Massachusetts, Fox news and other conservative mouthpieces stepped up the misrepresentation of the healthcare reform bill, and all summer Americans were bombarded with images of rallies by healthcare opponents screaming that Obama and the Democrats were socialists (and worse). The most outrageous claims from the right received absolutely no critical analysis in the mainstream press, and there was no counterbalance from the left as they felt dispirited and abandoned by the Obama administration (and weren’t any happier with the Senate bill than the conservatives).

To avoid going to conference (which probably would have killed the bill completely), the House managed to pass the Senate bill. There was some talk in the Senate of using reconciliation to put a public option back in, but by this time the bill was so unpopular that the leadership couldn’t even round up a simple majority.

So now we are left with a bill that no one likes, that does nothing to control costs and that forces people to buy health insurance from the same companies that were responsible for the mess in the first place. Awesome!
 
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OA412
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:00 am

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 2):
Before the chest pounding from the right begins in earnest, I'd like to point out that many liberals are also opposed to a mandate to buy insurance from private corporations. They would have much preferred a single-payer plan or at least a public option.

Indeed. That's the crux of the problem for many people on the left.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
And in other news, the Supreme Court will soon vote 7-2 or so that federal law supersedes state law, as it has for the past few centuries.

  

Quoting dxing (Reply 5):
Since this junk legislation was passed without a single GOP vote that statement rings completely hollow. The democrats did not need GOP support to pass anything, Their problem was with their own conservative (term applied loosely) members as well as with those that saw the handwriting on the wall last August.

Uh no. The legislation was, in fact, watered-down in order to appease the GOP.
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sv7887
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:11 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):
Uh no. The legislation was, in fact, watered-down in order to appease the GOP.

More like the Blue Dog Democrats who were scared to death of their constituents. Recall that they have majority control of Congress and didn't need a single GOP vote.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 2):
Before the chest pounding from the right begins in earnest, I'd like to point out that many liberals are also opposed to a mandate to buy insurance from private corporations. They would have much preferred a single-payer plan or at least a public option.

And pay for it how? The plan as is has been scored at $1+ Trillion by the CBO and that's only because they start collecting tax revenue immediately and defer the benefits for 4 years. (Also includes taking $500 Billion from Medicare) THAT was the key point of contention for the Blue Dog Democrats.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
And in other news, the Supreme Court will soon vote 7-2 or so that federal law supersedes state law, as it has for the past few centuries.

Hard to see how the SCOTUS will mandate the government forcing you to buy something. The Commerce Clause doesn't cover this scenario. That's a bit of a reach from forcing someone who drives a car to have insurance....
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:33 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
the Supreme Court will soon vote 7-2 or so that federal law supersedes state law

Yet WE know (and I'm a Democrat) that forcing people to HAVE insurance is unconstitutional, so I don't think the Supreme Court will intervene and force the states to adopt healthcare. Besides, it's up to the people to decide whether to be covered or not. If people in the MO state don't wish for the federal healthcare, then fine...it's their choice.

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dxing
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:20 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 10):
Uh no. The legislation was, in fact, watered-down in order to appease the GOP.

Uh, yeah...it passes wiithout a single gop vote. They didn't need to appease the gop. They could not control their own democratic party members. If it was watered down it was to get enough of their own parties votes to make it happen. Don't now try and blame a party that could not have stopped the legislation in any way shape or form for items that the public obviously does not like nor does it want.
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PhilGil
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:32 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 11):
And pay for it how? The plan as is has been scored at $1+ Trillion by the CBO and that's only because they start collecting tax revenue immediately and defer the benefits for 4 years. (Also includes taking $500 Billion from Medicare) THAT was the key point of contention for the Blue Dog Democrats.

Single payer would have covered everyone and been less expensive than the legislation that was passed:
http://www.unbossed.com/index.php?itemid=2669
http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMsa022033 (Warning - PDF file)
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:36 am

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 11):

Hard to see how the SCOTUS will mandate the government forcing you to buy something.

Well, there's one issue: if you present to a hospital, they are required by law to treat you.

Now, if you can't pay, they still have to treat you.

So you can rack up a million bucks in medical bills and then now you have no way to pay the bill. the hospital can ruin you, send collections, steal your gonads, whatever. But in the end, how do they get their million bucks back? So right now, the hospital has no way to stop you from stealing medical care from them.

So either hospitals need to gain the right to refuse to treat patients who can't pay and who have no insurance (which is what happens in India; you can't pay, you die.) or everyone needs insurance.
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dxing
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Now, if you can't pay, they still have to treat you.

They have to stabilize you. Big difference.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
So you can rack up a million bucks in medical bills

And that happens how many times? Here we go with the extreme example trying to be portrayed as the norm again.
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cws818
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:30 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
Congratulations to the voters of Missouri, but the battle is not won, let's go to court.

Isn't that exactly what got you upset in the Mississippi prom thread - filing suit without first "negotiating"?
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AirframeAS
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:46 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
The first of 3 States to have ballot propositions asking whether voters agree with the federal mandate to purchase insurance

I would like to see more states do this to show Washington that the current proposal is unacceptable. Or better yet, vote in new faces in Washington instead. We cannot keep re-electing these same goons who don't listen to their People.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
federal law supersedes state law

I don't think "supersedes" is the right term. I think the right term would be "trumps" in that sentence.
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Ken777
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:16 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 8):
we have until 2014 to gut this Unconstitutional part of the junk legislation

Or to get it to shift to a true public option that covers core medical care for everyone.

By 2014 health insurance benefits will probably be too expensive for most employers. Some will simply move their operations (or production) overseas (sound familiar?) or give you a $5K salary increase and cut your benefits out - letting you enjoy the "private insurance market". Might toss in a tube of KY to make it a little easier.  
Quoting PhilGil (Reply 14):
Single payer would have covered everyone and been less expensive than the legislation that was passed:

That is the truly ironic side of a single payer/public option. It is less expensive as countries like Australia demonstrates. It also allows for private policies at a fraction of the cost that Americans pay - when they can afford it.

Employers are slowly learning that they can cut health benefit costs dramatically over time. What do you think health insurance will cost in 2014? A lot if Obama is still in office. Far more if he isn't.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:58 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
And in other news, the Supreme Court will soon vote 7-2 or so that federal law supersedes state law, as it has for the past few centuries.

If the Supreme Court rules that Congress can regulate and tax the decision to not participate in interstate commerce, then there is no end to what Congress can regulation. Good luck getting Roberts, Scalia, Alito, Thomas, and Kennedy on board with that.
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DocLightning
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:28 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 16):

And that happens how many times? Here we go with the extreme example trying to be portrayed as the norm again.

In the six months I spent rotating on the internal medicine and surgery services, I saw at least twenty such cases of uninsured patients for whom "stabilization" was no small feat.
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dxing
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:05 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
By 2014 health insurance benefits will probably be too expensive for most employers.

Yep, all thanks to the U.S. government. Since they will be setting what is a "qualifying" policy you can bet they won't be too conerned about price. This administration doesn't give a hoot about buisness.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
In the six months I spent rotating on the internal medicine and surgery services, I saw at least twenty such cases of uninsured patients for whom "stabilization" was no small feat.

Out of how many total cases? And how many of them ended up costing a "million bucks"?
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canoecarrier
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RE: Missouri Voters Vote 3-1 Against Fed Ins Mandate

Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:17 pm

Recall that Obama lost Missouri in the '08 election, albeit by a very small margin. Missouri overwhelmingly rejected the Federal mandate that everyone must buy health insurance this last week. For those that say they voted it down because the current law is a shadow of the single-payer system that the Democrats wanted, this Proposition passed overwhelmingly because independent voters don't want the single-payer option not because Democrats didn't get what Obama promised them in the election.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
In the six months I spent rotating on the internal medicine and surgery services, I saw at least twenty such cases of uninsured patients for whom "stabilization" was no small feat.

My wife works as a nurse in a major Childrens hospital. The hospital routinely has the children of the poor, or undocumented, illegal aliens in the intensive care unit that will never be able to pay for the hundreds of thousands of dollars of some of the best medical care in the world at their disposal. No one is turned away, many receive organ transplants and months of medical care at anywhere between $3K-$5,000 a night. They will never have to pay that back.

Quoting dxing (Reply 22):
Out of how many total cases? And how many of them ended up costing a "million bucks"?

I'd say the number is much higher than you think. I can think of at least one hospital that provided over $100 million in uncompensated medical care in 2009 alone.
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