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Longhornmaniac
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Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:00 pm

Cheers,
Cameron
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:05 pm

For starters the judge is gay, so no surprise.

However as both sides agree a judgement in any direction was goin to be appealed to the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and likely eventually the Supreme Court.

In the mean time life goes on.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:09 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
However as both sides agree a judgement in any direction was goin to be appealed to the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and likely eventually the Supreme Court.

That was the purpose of bringing this trial. It is very difficult to prevail in court against an equal protection claim when there is so little evidence to support an effort to violate it other than "that's how people feel". Why do you think someone like Ted Olson took this case (other than wanting to argue at the SCOTUS)?

[Edited 2010-08-04 14:13:21]
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airtran737
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:09 pm

It's going to go to the 9th Circut Court of Appeals in San Francisco, and will ultimately be decided by the Supreme Court.
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mbmbos
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:11 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
For starters the judge is gay, so no surprise.

Are you saying a gay judge can't make a fair ruling on this case?
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:19 pm

That's good news but I wish these uber-conservatives and bible thumpers just gave up already and caught on with the times. I think it's pretty safe to say they will be shot down in the supreme court as well.

Yet more government money wasted on such trivial matters just because a handful of brainwashed nincompoops are "offended"   
 
D L X
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:19 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
For starters the judge is gay, so no surprise.

1) Where did you hear that?
2) He's actually been criticized for being anti-gay
3) Your cynicism is misplaced unless you can show examples of bias in his rulings.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
9th Circut Court of Appeals in San Francisco

Not necessarily in San Francisco. There are lots of places it could be heard, but you are correct that it will be the 9th Circuit. (Could be in Hawaii! Or Guam! But probably not.)
 
Cadet985
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:28 pm

In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter. The last thing needed is for this case to be heard in San Francisco, the largest gay city in this country. If it gets heard there, there's no way it would get a fair shot.

Marc
 
RL757PVD
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:30 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter.

They issue is that the people voted on an issue that legally can not be voted on. I bet you still have some towns in the south that would vote to ban interracial marriage if they could. Why not put everyone's marrage to a vote?
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG.

The courts exist for the very purpose of overriding "the will of the people" when it comes to the supremacy of majority rule. Take a civics class, why don't you?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
The last thing needed is for this case to be heard in San Francisco, the largest gay city in this country.

You sure about that? And how does appealing the case to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (in San Francisco) taint future rulings?
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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Scorpio
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:33 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter.

I know it's a tired old argument, but it's still true. Half a century ago, if you let people in some southern states vote on whether to stop segregation, there's a realistic chance they'd have voted 'no'. Does that mean it should've been kept? Of course not! This here is pretty much the same thing.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 4):
Are you saying a gay judge can't make a fair ruling on this case?


Well he has made comments which were in the paper a couple months back which I took to reflect a predisposition, and yes he probably does have some personal skin in the game or bias.

Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
1) Where did you hear that?

Read it several times.. Also cited in wikipedia as being one of two known gay Federal judges
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaughn_R._Walker

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 5):
That's good news but I wish these uber-conservatives and bible thumpers just gave up already and caught on with the times.

And many others wish radical immoral secular left would not try destroy basic social values such preserving traditional marriage, which can solely be between a man and a woman.


Personally I think its time now States pursue a formal Constitutional Amendment. I believe over half of States have passed various protection of marriage laws in recent years, so might as well formalize it in the Constitution and avoid similar issues with patchwork of state laws being challanged.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
And many others wish radical immoral secular left would not try destroy basic social values such preserving traditional marriage, which can solely be between a man and a woman.

Nobody is destroying anything - you don't have to marry a gay person if you don't want to. That's the whole point of bringing this before the courts - to prove once and for all that there is no evidence that same sex marriage harms heterosexual marriage in any way shape or form other than "feelings". There is no *data* that can be presented in court to show that basic social values and traditional marriage are harmed, modified, or invalidated. You choose to have the emotional reaction to the notion of same sex marriage that you have. As Ted Olson argued so eloquently, the fact that same sex persons want to participate in the institution of marriage actually bolsters traditional marriage by validating the contribution it makes to society.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Personally I think its time now States pursue a formal Constitutional Amendment.

That would have to get by the USSC as well, and with the equal protection challenge that has been brought, would be impossible to implement.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG.

Ted Olson just now on TV made the argument against you - a majority of citizens cannot decide the rights of another group of people simply because they are unpopular or smaller in number. That's what we have constitutional protections for.
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:46 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter. The last thing needed is for this case to be heard in San Francisco, the largest gay city in this country. If it gets heard there, there's no way it would get a fair shot.

And voters in the South voted in favor of antimiscegenation laws at one point. Those were struck down by Loving v. Virginia. One of the basic purposes of judicial review and courts at the Federal level is to ensure the Constitutionality of legislation. Those who scream about "activist judges," IMO, would do well to retake civics/US Government in high school as it seems they've forgotten the role of the courts in separation of powers and in our system of checks and balances. Beyond that, what's it matter whether the case gets heard in San Francisco or anywhere else in the 9th District? There'll be no jury - it'll be heard either by a panel of judges from the 9th Circuit or en banc with the entire 9th Circuit bench.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):

And many others wish radical immoral secular left would not try destroy basic social values such preserving traditional marriage, which can solely be between a man and a woman.

And whose morals are those on the "radical secular left" running afoul of? If it's "a majority of the people" see above - if it's unconstitutional, it doesn't matter if it passed with 100% approval. If it's (insert religious group here) the last I checked our government was a secular one, not a theocracy (despite the wishes of some), so why shouldn't our laws be as secular as possible?

[Edited 2010-08-04 14:52:32]
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johnboy
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:50 pm

I think i'm going to enjoy this thread.

 
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:52 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
That's the whole point of bringing this before the courts - to prove once and for all that there is no evidence that same sex marriage harms heterosexual marriage in any way shape or form other than "feelings".

So, using your logic, you, nor anybody else shouldn't have a problem if somebody wants to marry their dog, parent, child, multiple spouses, etc? This is the chain reaction that it will start. You don't want to believe it, but it will happen. All it will take is 1 judge to make it happen. Fair for all, or I call discrimination.
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mt99
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:56 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
So, using your logic, you, nor anybody else shouldn't have a problem if somebody wants to marry their dog, parent, child, multiple spouses, etc? This is the chain reaction that it will start. You don't want to believe it, but it will happen. All it will take is 1 judge to make it happen. Fair for all, or I call discrimination.

How many man-dog weddings have there been in Canada or Spain?
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D L X
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:57 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter.

People once upon a time voted to segregate schools and otherwise suppress black citizens in the United States. This is why we have the Constitution in the first place -- to protect minorities from the tyranny of a majority.

By the way (and MODS, this is not off topic at all) where did you stand on the Chicago gun case, where the voters of Chicago voted to ban guns in the city? Did you equally feel that the people's opinion was superior to the constitution?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Read it several times.. Also cited in wikipedia as being one of two known gay Federal judges
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaughn_...alker

Wow. That cite was literally added in the time after I wrote that.

For what it's worth, I've met him. I don't think he's gay. But so what if he is?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Well he has made comments which were in the paper a couple months back which I took to reflect a predisposition, and yes he probably does have some personal skin in the game or bias.
Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 13):
And voters in the South voted in favor of antimiscegenation laws at one point.

Not just the South. De jure racism existed nationwide.
 
TroutPilot
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:00 pm

I'd like there to be a constitutional amendment for everyone to mind their own business and not spend their time, energy, and money worrying about how other people live their lives. I don't give a damn about what my neighbor is doing as long as it does not infringe upon my, or anybody's, rights. Who the fireman down the street chooses to spend his life with is certainly none of my business.
troutpilot
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:00 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 16):
How many man-dog weddings have there been in Canada or Spain?

Did I say it DID happen, or did I say it WILL happen?

Look at it this way: how long did it take for those countries to legalize it? So, using history as an indicator (something we should all learn from), while it may take a while for building the movement, we can say it will happen, much like gay marriage.

If you say no now your just being a hypocrite, denying the same rights from "another" group of people. Hmmm.
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LAXintl
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:01 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):


Forcing society it must accept and bless as being "normal" the act of same-sex marriage is not a trivial matter in any shape of form and desecrates the most basic moral tenants many share.
Simply looking at the physical design of the human body tells you same-sex coupling was not the intended outcome for man-kind.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:01 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
which can solely be between a man and a woman.

Says who?

Quoting johnboy (Reply 14):
I think i'm going to enjoy this thread.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:04 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):

So, using your logic, you, nor anybody else shouldn't have a problem if somebody wants to marry their dog, parent, child, multiple spouses, etc? This is the chain reaction that it will start

All of those things can be reasonably shown by scientific and testimonial means to have a deleterious effect on the people involved - and that's why they wouldn't hold up in court. Moving along - no slippery slope to be seen here. Let people bring those suits if they want to, but they will lose.

Quoting TroutPilot (Reply 18):
I'd like there to be a constitutional amendment for everyone to mind their own business and not spend their time, energy, and money worrying about how other people live their lives. I don't give a damn about what my neighbor is doing as long as it does not infringe upon my, or anybody's, rights.

Amen to that. Live and let live in the libertarian spirit of the phrase has truly evaded the modern-day American spirit.
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11Bravo
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:05 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
It's going to go to the 9th Circut Court of Appeals in San Francisco, and will ultimately be decided by the Supreme Court.

So far, the opponents of same sex marriage have been very careful to avoid appealing judgments like this to higher courts because they realize how vulnerable laws like Prop 8 are to 14th Amendment interpretations.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter. The last thing needed is for this case to be heard in San Francisco, the largest gay city in this country. If it gets heard there, there's no way it would get a fair shot.

A great example here of the woeful ignorance too many Americans have regarding our system of government, the Constitution, and the role of the Judiciary. You get an F for 7th grade Civics.

As an aside, there are several cities in the US with larger gay populations than SF.
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Aaron747
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:09 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Forcing society it must accept and bless as being "normal"

If you believe that you haven't even read the post that came before it. Again, your argument is emotional, not logical.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Simply looking at the physical design of the human body tells you same-sex coupling was not the intended outcome for man-kind.

Sorry but that's not going to hold up in court.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:14 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Personally I think its time now States pursue a formal Constitutional Amendment.

I think it's time people stop worrying about gay marriage. It isn't your business. Why waste so much time and energy!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:15 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter.

Bingo. Their opinions on this issue don't matter. That's a fundamental underpinning of a constitutional republic. Welcome to the United States of America. Terribly sorry if you thought you were in a democracy. You're not. You never were. I'm not sure that there are any true democracies in the world, actually.

By your argument, if we had a vote on 9/12/01 as to whether all Muslims and Arabs should be shipped into concentration camps and gassed and it passed, we should have gone ahead with it.

Ben Franklin himself said that "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch."

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):

And many others wish radical immoral secular left would not try destroy basic social values such preserving traditional marriage, which can solely be between a man and a woman.

Wait a minute, I thought it was only between a man and a woman of the same race and religion. At least that's what you said 70 years ago. Or was it your grandfather?

And yes, I'm radical, I'm Amoral (but very ethical), and I'm secular. And I'm proud of it.

But most of all, I believe in the freedom of consenting adults to do what they want as long as they aren't bothering anyone else. It's a pity that you believe that your god gives you the right to boss everyone else around.
-Doc Lightning-

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JakeOrion
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:15 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 22):
All of those things can be reasonably shown by scientific and testimonial means to have a deleterious effect on the people involved - and that's why they wouldn't hold up in court. Moving along - no slippery slope to be seen here. Let people bring those suits if they want to, but they will lose.

This sounds like the tune opponents used for gay marriage, strange. Funny how it didn't work out for them.

And I have to ask, why would it bother you if somebody married their animal? I mean, its their life isn't it? We all have to be fair now, right?
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propilot83
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:18 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 27):
I think it's time people stop worrying about gay marriage. It isn't your business. Why waste so much time and energy!

What a waist of time, I know, there are more important issues to deal with, immigration???  
 
mt99
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 16):
How many man-dog weddings have there been in Canada or Spain?

Did I say it DID happen, or did I say it WILL happen?

Look at it this way: how long did it take for those countries to legalize it? So, using history as an indicator (something we should all learn from), while it may take a while for building the movement, we can say it will happen, much like gay marriage.

If you say no now your just being a hypocrite, denying the same rights from "another" group of people. Hmmm.


I am not fighting the battle for guys or gals to marry Fido. I am fighting MY fight to marry someone I love. By your logic then, we should deny everyone every right they currently posses to avoid "slippery slopes"



Let's ban guns. Eventually they are going to want to allow citizens to own nuclear weapons.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 19):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 16):
How many man-dog weddings have there been in Canada or Spain?

Did I say it DID happen, or did I say it WILL happen?

Look at it this way: how long did it take for those countries to legalize it? So, using history as an indicator (something we should all learn from), while it may take a while for building the movement, we can say it will happen, much like gay marriage.

If you say no now your just being a hypocrite, denying the same rights from "another" group of people. Hmmm.


[Edited 2010-08-04 16:34:09 by srbmod]
Step into my office, baby
 
nyc2theworld
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:20 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 29):
This sounds like the tune opponents used for gay marriage, strange. Funny how it didn't work out for them.

And I have to ask, why would it bother you if somebody married their animal? I mean, its their life isn't it? We all have to be fair now, right?

One of the questions when getting married is that you are doing it of your own accord. How is an animal supposed to answer that question? We have no way of successfully and consistently communicating with animals. Nor do we have a way of testing the mental capabilities to show they have free will (as opposed to operating on instinct).
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:21 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
Bingo. Their opinions on this issue don't matter.

So now I ask that if it is becoming apparent that the opinions (even those shared by a majority of the people) don't matter, what is the sense of voting or getting involved in politics?

Marc
 
D L X
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:21 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
So, using your logic, you, nor anybody else shouldn't have a problem if somebody wants to marry their dog, parent, child, multiple spouses, etc?

Those things are not Constitutionally protected. That's the difference. Marriage to one person is. If you allow marriage to one person, and because you have to treat people equally under the law, you cannot discriminate about who can marry a person. (I.e., if Johnny can marry Sally, so can Betty marry Sally, because otherwise you would be treating Johnny and Betty differently, in violation of equal protection.) There is no equal protection problem preventing everyone from marrying their dog, parent, child, or multiple people.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Forcing society it must accept and bless as being "normal" the act of same-sex marriage is not a trivial matter in any shape of form and desecrates the most basic moral tenants many share.
Simply looking at the physical design of the human body tells you same-sex coupling was not the intended outcome for man-kind.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the constitution. The constitution also allows you to skip church, something that many people find immoral.

[Edited 2010-08-04 16:35:36 by srbmod]
 
mt99
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:21 pm

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 23):
This is just pathetic, if I ever see any gay guy trying to hit on me, I

You must be gorgeous for random guy hitting on you. Either that, or you probably act a bit gay.
Step into my office, baby
 
Cadet57
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:23 pm

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 23):
What is our children supposed to learn from this crap

Well, so long as their parents aren't narrow minded idiots who spout comments like yours, tolerance.

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 23):
orget this, this is unbelievable, I hope the Supreme Court does not allow same-sex marriage.

   Get a grip. How does gay marraige affect you? What does it do you personally?

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 23):
And marriage is defined and WILL BE defined as a sexual relationship between a male and female only.

Hate you break it to you but more and more states with common sense have ratified gay marriage. It was only until the religious wackjobs of this country screwed it up for CA.

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 23):
This is just pathetic, if I ever see any gay guy trying to hit on me, I will knock him out.

Ohhh tough guy talking.

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 23):
If they want respect, then they better respect the people who arent gay.

And I suppose even if they respect you they still will be below you, huh?

Quoting propilot83 (Reply 23):
The laws in America should be more strict, not more lenient,

Da Mein Führer
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Aaron747
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:23 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 29):
And I have to ask, why would it bother you if somebody married their animal? I mean, its their life isn't it? We all have to be fair now, right?

It's not the same tune at all. I don't get how you're reading it that way. It cannot be shown in court that same sex marriage has a deleterious effect on society or the people involved - there is no data to support it. Period. Judge Vaughan asked the Prop 8 supporters during oral arguments how same sex marriage would impact heterosexual marriages in a tangible fashion and they couldn't answer. What is the measurable impact on heterosexual persons if same sex couples are married? Until that question can be answered with real data of import, they will continue to prevail in court.

The slippery slope examples you posted are another matter entirely. There is data to support the assertion that polygamous marriages and sexual relations between parent and child cause tangible emotional and psychological damage, and are often propagated as abuse. The same could be argued with animals as they are not able to provide their consent and can be demonstrated to suffer physiological damage from sexual relations with humans.

Linking those absurd notions with same sex marriage is a tired exercise and demonstrates a lack of dignity and respect toward those seeking to have their consensual adult relationships protected equally before the law.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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OA412
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 4):
Are you saying a gay judge can't make a fair ruling on this case?

That seems to be the implication.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter. The last thing needed is for this case to be heard in San Francisco, the largest gay city in this country. If it gets heard there, there's no way it would get a fair shot.

As others have already stated, if tomorrow a State decided to vote in favor of expelling all Blacks, or all Jews, or all Hindus, or all people who looked at some cockeyed, we should all just let it be because it's the will of the people? I think that you know the answer to this question...

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
And many others wish radical immoral secular left would not try destroy basic social values such preserving traditional marriage, which can solely be between a man and a woman.

You know, I take immense offense to your suggestion that those of us on the left are immoral. Who are you to decide what is, and is not, moral? I'm a hard-working tax-paying citizen who understands the difference between right and wrong. I don't believe that people should be denied equal rights before the law simply because of who they are or who they love. What exactly is immoral about that?

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
So, using your logic, you, nor anybody else shouldn't have a problem if somebody wants to marry their dog, parent, child, multiple spouses, etc?

The tired beastiality, polygamy, etc., marriage argument rears its ugly head. Psychiatric studies have clearly found that the marriages that you mention are psychologically unhealthy. By the same token, Psychiatric studies have found that there is nothing psychologically unhealthy about being in a same-sex relationship. To even suggest that two consenting adult men or women (or consenting same-sex adolescents) in a loving relationship is in any way equivalent to an adult marrying a child is intellectually dishonest and morally bankrupt.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 19):
If you say no now your just being a hypocrite, denying the same rights from "another" group of people. Hmmm.

Not one bit. But, I'm well aware that many people on the right are using such ridiculous and extreme examples in order to paint gay men and women and their supporters as being intolernt.
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Scorpio
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:28 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
This is the chain reaction that it will start. You don't want to believe it, but it will happen.

Damn right! We've had gay marriage for a while now, and out here, everybody's marrying their chihuahua, cat, the neighbors' 6 year-old, and the whole local football team. It's mayhem I tell you!

No wait...  

I can't believe some people still go for that old chestnut. Makes you wonder...
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:30 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 31):
Let's ban guns. Eventually they are going to want to allow citizens to own nuclear weapons.

Hey, I'm trying to play "Fair for all" here, which apparently, you have a problem with.

Quoting NYC2THEWORLD (Reply 32):
One of the questions when getting married is that you are doing it of your own accord. How is an animal supposed to answer that question? We have no way of successfully and consistently communicating with animals. Nor do we have a way of testing the mental capabilities to show they have free will (as opposed to operating on instinct).

Its not just animals, what about parent marrying their child, etc? Still, you discriminating against somebody, so why not be fair to that one person who wants to marry their animal? Fair for all.

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
Those things are not Constitutionally protected. That's the difference. Marriage to one person is. If you allow marriage to one person, and because you have to treat people equally under the law, you cannot discriminate about who can marry a person. (I.e., if Johnny can marry Sally, so can Betty marry Sally, because otherwise you would be treating Johnny and Betty differently, in violation of equal protection.) There is no equal protection problem preventing everyone from marrying their dog, parent, child, or multiple people.

I don't recall marriage in the Constitution. So how is this "Constitutionally Protected" argument valid if its not even written in the Constitution? As far as I can see, person marrying whatever is no different than person marrying person.

Besides, why would you have a problem with it?
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:33 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 29):
And I have to ask, why would it bother you if somebody married their animal?

It might not bother me, but it's not fair to the animal since the animal is unable to give consent.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
preserving traditional marriage, which can solely be between a man and a woman.

Traditional marriage is still preserved. It's perfectly legal and no one is taking it away.
 
Mir
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:36 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter.

Their opinions matter, but they can't override the Constitution. That's the issue here.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
Fair for all, or I call discrimination.

I agree - two consenting adults should be allowed to marry the one they love. Anything else would be unfair, and discriminatory.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Forcing society it must accept and bless as being "normal" the act of same-sex marriage

  For the millionth time:

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BLESS IT. You just have to accept the fact that even though you don't like it, that doesn't mean it has to be illegal. Is that really so hard? Will you actually lose sleep because gay people are getting married somewhere in society?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 20):
Simply looking at the physical design of the human body tells you same-sex coupling was not the intended outcome for man-kind.

And yet it happens. And not just in humans, either. That ought to tell you something.


-Mir

[Edited 2010-08-04 16:37:12 by srbmod]
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:37 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
Linking those absurd notions with same sex marriage is a tired exercise and demonstrates a lack of dignity and respect toward those seeking to have their consensual adult relationships protected equally before the law.
Quoting OA412 (Reply 40):
Not one bit. But, I'm well aware that many people on the right are using such ridiculous and extreme examples in order to paint gay men and women and their supporters as being intolernt.
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 41):

I can't believe some people still go for that old chestnut. Makes you wonder...

No, now you 3 are using the same arguments that opponents of gay marriage were using and throwing right back in my face.

Your hypocrites, you either play fair for everyone, whether you like it or not, or you leave it as it is.

On a personal note, I'm all for banning marriages altogether, as it seems more people are divorcing and being miserable rather than enjoying the marriage life, so what is the bloody point of it anymore?
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
AGM100
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:37 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 31):
Let's ban guns. Eventually they are going to want to allow citizens to own nuclear weapons.

   hell ya now were talking ! The Remington model 75000 ... Personal Nuclear Device ! Comes with a child lock .....
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
nyc2theworld
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:39 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 42):
Its not just animals, what about parent marrying their child, etc? Still, you discriminating against somebody, so why not be fair to that one person who wants to marry their animal? Fair for all.

A child cannot legally make their own decisions and when a child has to make a legal decision that can affect the legal standing of their parent/guardian, the court will appoint someone to look after the child's legal interests. In addition, people have already stated the above about studies showing the negative psychological effect of a child entering into marriage.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:39 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 15):
So, using your logic, you, nor anybody else shouldn't have a problem if somebody wants to marry their dog, parent, child, multiple spouses, etc? This is the chain reaction that it will start. You don't want to believe it, but it will happen. All it will take is 1 judge to make it happen. Fair for all, or I call discrimination.

Didn't the chain reaction already start when someone said it was okay to marry a woman?   




Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 7):
In my opinion, the decision to overturn the will of the voters is WRONG. The people voted, and it's like their opinions didn't matter. The last thing needed is for this case to be heard in San Francisco, the largest gay city in this country. If it gets heard there, there's no way it would get a fair shot.

There's a phrase in government for this: "Tyranny of the Majority". The fact that gay marriage is not recognized is not fair to homosexuals. So while I don't agree with many of the politics in San Francisco, this is one area I do.

[Edited 2010-08-04 16:38:31 by srbmod]
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Aaron747
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:43 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 46):
No, now you 3 are using the same arguments that opponents of gay marriage were using and throwing right back in my face.

If you can show logically how this is the case, I'd love to see it.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 46):
Your hypocrites, you either play fair for everyone, whether you like it or not, or you leave it as it is.

On the subject of marriage, fairness is intact where our arguments are concerned. The things you tried bringing into the argument are unfair themselves since they are asking government to consider relationships that can be demonstrated as harmful to those involved. There's playing Devil's advocate and then there's using misdirection - which is precisely what those arguments are.

This notion would be fine if we lived in an anarchy where government did not have a responsibility to ensure that laws did not promote abuse and emotional trauma, but that's not the case is it?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:44 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 42):

Let me see if I get your argument straight?

You think that because some groups (the sheep f***ers, incestuously-inclined etc...) are being discriminated against, the only way to have it be fair is to have more people discriminated against (homosexuals)?

Wow, talk about nuts.

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Cheers,
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:53 pm

My view is what means something in Massachusetts can't have any meaning in Alabama it's one or the other...stupid timid politicians and judges left it up to the states to decide which was a big mistake...
one or the other across the whole country..
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D L X
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:55 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 42):
I don't recall marriage in the Constitution.

Treating people equally is. Public schools aren't in the constitution either, but not segregating them is.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 42):
As far as I can see, person marrying whatever is no different than person marrying person.

Except that the constitution does not say the government cannot ban marrying "whatever." The Constitution does say you cannot ban being married to one sex but not the other.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 42):
Besides, why would you have a problem with it?

Whether I have a problem with it has nothing to do with its legality.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 46):
On a personal note, I'm all for banning marriages altogether

Oddly enough, THAT would be constitutional. In fact, that's exactly what happened when the Supreme Court desegregated public swimming pools - the cities banned public swimming pools.
 
sv7887
Posts: 1259
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RE: Federal Judge: CA Prop 8 Unconstitutional

Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:56 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):
I agree - two consenting adults should be allowed to marry the one they love. Anything else would be unfair, and discriminatory.

Would you then agree that first cousins be allowed to marry as common as it is in Islamic community? It's actually illegal in some US states, but common practice in Pakistani immigrant communities in the UK.

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