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DocLightning
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Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:51 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?hp

I found this quote particularly intereting, especially the middle paragraph:

Quote:
In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.

I find it really frightening that those who are the loudest bigots are also the most fervent flag-wavers.

For me, having grown up in suburban Detroit, Islam was just another religion. A good quarter of my high school class was Muslim and a third were Mid-Eastern (some of them were Chaldeans, who are Catholic). There were synagogues, churches, and mosques. OK, the Jews and Muslims might not have been the best of friends, but we coexisted. It was peaceful. There weren't huge religious demonstrations. There was respect and a general ethos of "if you can't say something nice, then don't say anything at all."

This, to me, brings up images of Germany in the '30's. I wonder if there will be a kristallnacht.

And I wonder why the Tea Party, a group that keeps on claiming to not be prejudiced, is getting mixed up in this. I get why the GOP is, that's obvious. But I thought the Tea Party was about the Constitution and all that stuff.
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Airstud
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:02 am

I'm not convinced that this is as big a problem as the New York Times is making it out to be.
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dragon-wings
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:04 am

From some of the quotes in this article it sounds like these people are very parinoid!

"In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law."

“As a mother and a grandmother, I worry,” Ms. Serafin said. “I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented. My children and grandchildren will have to live under that.”

“A mosque is not just a place for worship,” Ms. Darwish said in an interview. “It’s a place where war is started, where commandments to do jihad start, where incitements against non-Muslims occur. It’s a place where ammunition was stored.”
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Doona
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:12 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 2):
They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law

If they are fundamentalists, they probably do. However, I strongly doubt that fundamentalists make up a noticeable chunk of Americanized Muslims. There are probably more Christians who want to replace the constitution with the Ten Commandments.

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Airstud
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:14 am

Ms. Serafin's concerns, as imagined as they may be, aren't addressed by refusing to permit mosque construction. Moslems are going to procreate whether we let them build in Sheboygan or not.
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OA412
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:14 am

The ignorance of some in this country vis-a-vis Islam is quite sad really.
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BMI727
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:15 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 2):
“I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam,

Only if Mexicans start converting.  
Quoting Doona (Reply 3):
There are probably more Christians who want to replace the constitution with the Ten Commandments.

   Those are also the same crowd waiting for Israel to takeover the Middle East, so it all kinda goes together.
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:17 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 1):
I'm not convinced that this is as big a problem as the New York Times is making it out to be.

I think it is. In the town where I work there was just one such protest.

Quoting Doona (Reply 3):

If they are fundamentalists, they probably do.

Yes. And Christian fundamentalists have long waged a (thankfully unsuccessful) battle to get their particular brand of Christianity enshrined into law.
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Aaron747
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:18 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 2):
“As a mother and a grandmother, I worry,” Ms. Serafin said. “I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented. My children and grandchildren will have to live under that.”

These people just make me LOL until I realize that they are quite serious. Before the next July 4th they oughta just burn their family flag, since that's essentially what they're doing anyway.
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:51 am

I have a feeling if they do not want the mosque in its planed location, they may likely not want it anywhere in New York.
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:00 am

I wonder if these are the same 'Christians' that would complain about religious intolerance in Saudi Arabia?   
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F9Animal
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:24 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 1):
I'm not convinced that this is as big a problem as the New York Times is making it out to be.

It can be a very big problem. The Mosque will likely be under constant harassment, and it may even face a constant barrage of constant vandalism. I think it is a bad idea.
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KPDX
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:27 pm

I'm sure the NY Times hand picked out thing to make anything with right leaning look horrible, as normal.   
 
Superfly
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:28 pm

You know if a group of Hindus or Buddhist wanted to put a place of worship at this location and there was a backlash, they would respect the emotions of that community and peacefully look somewhere else without making a fuss.
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Charles79
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 3:59 pm

These are sad developments in so many levels. I'm not religious yet I have never stood in the way of somebody who wanted to practice their chosen religion. It's ironic that the ones who are fighting against these religious groups come from other faiths. Maybe they are afraid that they'll steal their customers/revenue?  
Quoting Doona (Reply 3):
There are probably more Christians who want to replace the constitution with the Ten Commandments.

I'm afraid you might be right. When I was growing up the propaganda we got in school was that the USA was all about freedom, justice, human rights, and, most important, equality for all. You have no idea how many times I've been told by educated, serious people that I'm not a "real" American because I'm from Puerto Rico, because I'm gay, because I'm not "white" (if I were any whiter I'd be see through!) or because I'm not a Christian. Sad.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:58 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
You know if a group of Hindus or Buddhist wanted to put a place of worship at this location and there was a backlash, they would respect the emotions of that community and peacefully look somewhere else without making a fuss.

I very much doubt that. I very much hope that Hindus and Bhuddists would put up a fight and stand up for themselves.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 12):
I'm sure the NY Times hand picked out thing to make anything with right leaning look horrible, as normal.

Um... I have seen these protests myself in the smallish town where my clinic is. You can deny it's a problem. Or you can fight it.

The right wing has always opposed change. That's the definition of the right, fundamentally, no matter where you are. The left wants rapid, sweeping changes and the right does not.

Because of that, the Right can also attract racist and other prejudiced elements.

Quoting charles79 (Reply 14):
I'm afraid you might be right. When I was growing up the propaganda we got in school was that the USA was all about freedom, justice, human rights, and, most important, equality for all. You have no idea how many times I've been told by educated, serious people that I'm not a "real" American

I have been told to go back to my country because I'm a Jew. In spite of the fact that my family has lived in the United States for seven generations.
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Zentraedi
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Quoting charles79 (Reply 14):
You have no idea how many times I've been told by educated, serious people that I'm not a "real" American because I'm from Puerto Rico, because I'm gay, because I'm not "white" (if I were any whiter I'd be see through!) or because I'm not a Christian. Sad.

I'd believe it. I have many relatives in the same attitude. The worst would have to be my sister in law. I'll go to the US to visit family, perhaps mention a funny story from Japan and her response is always something like "Well, of course. They have no morals because they're not Christian." She says it with a completely self assured, straight face.   
 
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I very much hope that Hindus and Bhuddists would put up a fight and stand up for themselves.

Or simply respect others and try to understand and not offend others.
There is no shortage of land to build a place of worship.
Building a victory mosque on these grounds is crass and insulting period.
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:08 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):

Or simply respect others and try to understand and not offend others.

All right, Larry. Next time this happens to an African-American cultural center, let's see how you feel about it.

Because THOSE people are also still around.
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Superfly
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
All right, Larry. Next time this happens to an African-American cultural center, let's see how you feel about it.

You can pick & chose your religion but you can't chose your race, age, gender and sexual orientation.
Changing your religion can be as easy as changing your underwear.
There is nothing genetic about Islam, Christianity, Hindu, etc...
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Scorpio
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:49 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
Building a victory mosque on these grounds is crass and insulting period.

A... victory mosque?  Wow!

But hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your stance I guess..
 
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:13 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 12):
I'm sure the NY Times hand picked out thing to make anything with right leaning look horrible, as normal.

Weren't you the one in another thread criticizing those who try and make a victim out of President Obama? Frankly, one doesn't often have to go far to find right-wingers with similarly narrow attitudes about Islam, Hispanics, Blacks, Gays, etc. Funny how some on the Right chastise any minority for choosing "victimhood", yet they are so quick to make themselves out to be victims when something is published that shows them in less than a positive light.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
You know if a group of Hindus or Buddhist wanted to put a place of worship at this location and there was a backlash, they would respect the emotions of that community and peacefully look somewhere else without making a fuss.

I certainly hope they would not. Why give in to bigotry, and sheer stupidity?

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 20):
A... victory mosque?

Yeah not sure what that's about either.
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:29 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 21):

Oh, it happens to both sides of the spectrum, but I my point was that you can't take a stance on a issue as such after reading a NYT article of all things...
 
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:03 pm

The New York Times is one of the most-respected newspapers in the world.
 
PhilGil
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 7:26 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
Building a victory mosque on these grounds is crass and insulting period.

A "victory mosque" - seriously? You must be trolling, even Limbaugh is more nuanced than that. Also, it's not new construction, and it's not being built on "sacred ground"; the building housed a Burlington Coat Factory on 9/11.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 22):
my point was that you can't take a stance on a issue as such after reading a NYT article of all things...

Dylan, the New York Times is one of the few organizations left in the US doing real reporting instead of "infotainment." The birthers, xenophobes, closet-cases, religious extremists, tea partiers and outrage-of-the-day folks on the far right don't need the help of the NYT to make them look foolish - they're doing a fine job all by themselves.
 
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:46 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
For me, having grown up in suburban Detroit, Islam was just another religion.

Same here. But one of the things the wider world has learned over the past decade (if you were paying attention), is that Islam is not just a religion. Inlike Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, it claims to be a complete system of social and political laws, intolerant of any sort of secular government and based on the UNequal treatment of religions.
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Aaron747
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
But one of the things the wider world has learned over the past decade (if you were paying attention), is that Islam is not just a religion. Inlike Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, it claims to be a complete system of social and political laws, intolerant of any sort of secular government and based on the UNequal treatment of religions.

Well yes - but that still doesn't explain why an Islamic organization that has bought and paid for property should not be permitted to establish a house of worship there. I just don't buy this slippery slope fallacy that 50 years down the line we're going to be looking at a large cadre of US lawmakers of Islamic descent who are going to suddenly institute Sharia.  
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Zentraedi
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:07 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Same here. But one of the things the wider world has learned over the past decade (if you were paying attention), is that Islam is not just a religion. Inlike Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, it claims to be a complete system of social and political laws, intolerant of any sort of secular government and based on the UNequal treatment of religions.

lol. What you are describing is no different from evangelical Christians in the US.

As for "intolerant of any sort of secular government", are you familiar with Turkey?
 
PhilGil
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:21 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Same here. But one of the things the wider world has learned over the past decade (if you were paying attention), is that Islam is not just a religion. Inlike Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, it claims to be a complete system of social and political laws, intolerant of any sort of secular government and based on the UNequal treatment of religions.

Actually, many religions have been structured that way in the past. Separation of church and state is a relatively new concept. Imperial China was built along Confucianist lines, the Catholic church and the crowned heads of Europe were in bed togther for most of the previous 1,000 years, and there were even Talmudic Courts in Jewish communities. Today, a significant number of Evangelical Christians would like the US government to pass legislation that is in line with their Biblical beliefs.

In addition, The unequal treatment of religions under Islam isn't as cut and dry as many believe. For example, during most of the last millennium, Jews were subject to less discrimination and persecution in Islamic countries than in Christian countries.

Are there extremist Muslims in the US that the governent needs to keep an eye on? Of course there are, just like they keep an eye on the JDL and potential abortion clinic bombers. I'm sure there's not many of them - American culture and values are too alluring. I have little doubt that the children of Muslim immigrants will be just as Americanized as the childdren of any other immigrant group.

[Edited 2010-08-08 14:29:57]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:30 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):

Same here. But one of the things the wider world has learned over the past decade (if you were paying attention), is that Islam is not just a religion. Inlike Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, it claims to be a complete system of social and political laws, intolerant of any sort of secular government and based on the UNequal treatment of religions.

Wait... how is that different from Christianity?

Or do we forget that the Roman Catholic Church tried to get itself enshrined into the EU constitution? I could give more and more and more examples. That idiot judge who lost his position because he insisted on displaying the Ten Commandments in his courtroom. The anti-Evolution folks. The Abstinence-Only folks. The Anti-Abortion folks. The Anti-Gay folks... They're Christians.
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OA412
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 27):
As for "intolerant of any sort of secular government", are you familiar with Turkey?

Or Mosaddeq's Iran for that matter.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
Well yes - but that still doesn't explain why an Islamic organization that has bought and paid for property should not be permitted to establish a house of worship there. I just don't buy this slippery slope fallacy that 50 years down the line we're going to be looking at a large cadre of US lawmakers of Islamic descent who are going to suddenly institute Sharia.

I don't buy it either. In another thread, someone posted a video showing some in Australia making the same claims. I just don't see the construction of Mosque's as being the first step towards the implementation of Sharia Law in the US.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:46 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
Well yes - but that still doesn't explain why an Islamic organization that has bought and paid for property should not be permitted to establish a house of worship there. I just don't buy this slippery slope fallacy that 50 years down the line we're going to be looking at a large cadre of US lawmakers of Islamic descent who are going to suddenly institute Sharia.

Their intention was made clear when they announced the name of the mosque - Cordoba House. I expect they thought that nobody would pick up on the historic relevance - namely the historic practice of building a mosque on the site of a great Islamic victory.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 27):
lol. What you are describing is no different from evangelical Christians in the US.

Christianity expressly recognized the authority of a secular government. "Render unto Caesar...". Islam contains no such recognition and in fact specifically rejects it.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 27):

As for "intolerant of any sort of secular government", are you familiar with Turkey?

I spent enough time there, so yes. Ataturk's most valuable contribution to Turkey was his recognition that Islam had to be restricted to being "just" a religion, and that Islam did not have a role in civil or political law - i.e. he turned Turkey into a secular state. Knowing that Islamists would continually try to subvert a secular government, he charged the military with a special duty to step in whenever they achieved too much power. Not very democratic in the eyes of westerners, but unfortunately indispensable in a state dominated by Muslims if it wishes to keep a secular government long term with any kind of religious freedom.

What's going on right now in Turkey is very troubling, thanks in part to EU influence to try to depoliticize the military, the EU being ignorant of its necessity.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 28):
Actually, many religions have been structured that way in the past. Separation of church and state is a relatively new concept. Imperial China was built along Confucianist lines, the Catholic church and the crowned heads of Europe were in bed togther for most of the previous 1,000 years, and there were even Talmdic Courts in Jewish communities. Today, a significant number of Evangelical Christians would like the US government to pass legislation that is in line with their Biblical beliefs.

There are always extremists who want to institutionalize their wishes in the civil government. But Islam is the only religion that ORDERS it to be so. It thus makes the leap from religion to ideology.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 28):
In addition, The unequal treatment of religions under Islam isn't as cut and dry as many believe. For example, during most of the last millennium, Jews were subject to less discrimination and persecution in Islamic countries than in Christian countries.

But always as Dhimmi - with fewer legal and social rights than Muslims, made to pay extra taxes and recognizing their status as second-class citizens. Such discrimination is written into Islam's sacred texts and is law. Christians have done the same thing in the past, but not because they were following Christ instructions - they weren't, He instructed his followers to love non-believers equally - but rather for their own political purposes.
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Flighty
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
I find it really frightening that those who are the loudest bigots are also the most fervent flag-wavers

Agreed, but i think this could be solved peaceably and in a civilized manner, by way of castration.

The people who talk hate about Islam should go somewhere nice and warm, and I suggest they crawl into the grave of Adolf Hitler, where they would feel right at home.

It's a simple test... When people say blah blah Muslim... would it be permissible to say blah blah Jew? If not, then people need to quit talking.

And if it's an ethnic thing... that's even worse. We invaded Iraq to get the "people who attacked us on 9/11" which, since it wasn't Al Qaeda, we must assume was meant as the race and religion of people who attacked us on 9/11, meaning kinda Middle Eastern looking and kinda Islamic. I am just trying to interpret direct quotes from the last commander in chief, not witch hunting at all.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
But one of the things the wider world has learned over the past decade (if you were paying attention), is that Islam is not just a religion. Inlike Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, it claims to be a complete system of social and political laws, intolerant of any sort of secular government and based on the UNequal treatment of religions.

Heard that 100 times over the last decade and it still makes no sense.

Quoting Doona (Reply 3):
There are probably more Christians who want to replace the constitution with the Ten Commandments.

eeeexactly.
 
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OA412
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:56 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
Quoting Doona (Reply 3):There are probably more Christians who want to replace the constitution with the Ten Commandments.
eeeexactly.

Yeah and one of them is Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama. Scary!
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 9:57 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 32):
Quoting Doona (Reply 3):
There are probably more Christians who want to replace the constitution with the Ten Commandments.

eeeexactly.

Back that up. Those are your paranoid delusions talking.
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Aaron747
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Their intention was made clear when they announced the name of the mosque - Cordoba House. I expect they thought that nobody would pick up on the historic relevance - namely the historic practice of building a mosque on the site of a great Islamic victory.

Not really a response - I still don't see how that guarantees Sharia victory in 50 years.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Back that up. Those are your paranoid delusions talking.

People who want to keep anti-sodomy laws on the books, Sunday dry laws, overturn Roe v. Wade, and support for CA Prop. 8 just for starters. This is a libertarian country - that means whatever you want to worship is fine, but it doesn't allow you to step on what others choose to do.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:34 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):

Not really a response - I still don't see how that guarantees Sharia victory in 50 years.

Nothing is guaranteed, but the symbolism is powerful, and would be a powerful recruiting tool for the Islamist cause. Most people do not understand the importance of such symbols in that culture.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Back that up. Those are your paranoid delusions talking.

People who want to keep anti-sodomy laws on the books, Sunday dry laws, overturn Roe v. Wade, and support for CA Prop. 8 just for starters. This is a libertarian country - that means whatever you want to worship is fine, but it doesn't allow you to step on what others choose to do.

No, no, no. You said that many people would want to eliminate the Constitution and replace it with the 10 Commandments. Who exactly? Can you name any?
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PhilGil
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
There are always extremists who want to institutionalize their wishes in the civil government. But Islam is the only religion that ORDERS it to be so. It thus makes the leap from religion to ideology.

Old testament law was meant to apply to civil socirty, not just religious life. The laws in Leviticus are all-encompassing, Why does Judaism get a pass on that but not Islam? In western societies, mainstream religion tend to become more tolerant over time. I'll be the first to admit that Islam, in the Middle East, has a lot of growing up to do before it becomes as tolerant as mainstream Christianity or Judaism. I doubt, however that you would find many American Jews or Muslims who still believe women who commit adultery should be stoned to death.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
But always as Dhimmi - with fewer legal and social rights than Muslims, made to pay extra taxes and recognizing their status as second-class citizens.

True that, but it was still significantly better for Jews than after the Reconquista.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Their intention was made clear when they announced the name of the mosque - Cordoba House. I expect they thought that nobody would pick up on the historic relevance - namely the historic practice of building a mosque on the site of a great Islamic victory.

There is, of course, another explanation for the choice of name and location, and I'm just not seeing any indication that the people behind the cultural center are secret terrorists or advocates of Shariah Law.

[Edited 2010-08-08 15:58:27]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:56 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Nothing is guaranteed, but the symbolism is powerful, and would be a powerful recruiting tool for the Islamist cause. Most people do not understand the importance of such symbols in that culture.

Oh I can pretty much guarantee that we, as Americans, would *never* allow people pushing a Sharia implementation agenda to get very far - too much in it that people of all political stripes would hate. Sharia would piss off progressive lefties just as much as it would fundie Christians.

Symbols are important, sure, but that still does not establish a legal basis for opposing what someone wishes to do with their property. You're assuming of course that the center intends to be a recruiting center for Islamism - and to date, that has not been tangibly established. Even if that becomes so down the line, don't expect that this particular center won't be under constant scrutiny, both from a government and private citizen perspective. I really don't see why people are being so unreasonable about this - it's friggin America.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
No, no, no. You said that many people would want to eliminate the Constitution and replace it with the 10 Commandments. Who exactly? Can you name any?

You have the wrong forumer.
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rolfen
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:13 am

Muhammad didn't leave Muslims with an easy legacy. The Holy Quran is fraught with pro-war rhetoric and violent images. That doesn't automatically make Muslims violent people, we should remember that.
rolf
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:13 am

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 37):
Old testament law was meant to apply to civil socirty, not just religious life. The laws in Leviticus are all-encompassing, Why does Judaism get a pass on that but not Islam?

You are absolutely correct - the Old testament is similar to Islam in that respect. Christianity superseded that with the New Testament. I do not know enough about the Jewish faith to argue the point, but I do know that Jews after the Diaspora spent 2000 years living as minorities among other nations and rarely (if ever) became militant in attempting to impose Judaism on those around them. So I presume (tell me if I'm wrong) that there are parts of the Torah not in the Old Testament, which may have provided the justification for respecting "Caesar", as Christ called it.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 37):
I doubt, however that you would find many American Jews or Muslims who still believe women who commit adultery should be stoned to death.

If you read a bit, you may notice that in the past decade or so Honor Killings and similar violence are on the rise in western countries including the US.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 37):
True that, but it was still significantly better for Jews than after the Reconquista.

I would argue that that was more politically motivated than religious. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church spent some 1000 years imposing Christianity with far more, shall we say, enthusiasm, than is justified by scripture. The reason for this is politics. The leadership of the church found such power seductive.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 37):
There is, of course, another explanation for the choice of name and location

Like what? If the Germans called their embassy in Paris the Blitzkrieg Building, don't you think the French would be rightfully incensed? This is the same thing.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
Oh I can pretty much guarantee that we, as Americans, would *never* allow people pushing a Sharia implementation agenda to get very far - too much in it that people of all political stripes would hate. Sharia would piss off progressive lefties just as much as it would fundie Christians.

It's already happening in baby steps. A few months ago a judge acquitted a man who beat his wife because he was a Muslim and out of respect for his religious beliefs he should not be punished. I guarantee you that over time elements of Sharia will find their way into jurisprudence, and will not be overturned on appeal as this one was. Britain and other countries are even further along in this problem of what they call "Sharia Creep"

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
You have the wrong forumer.

My apology. Doona and Flighty were the intended recipients.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Superfly
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:51 am

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 24):
You must be trolling,

No I've been a member here for over 10 years.
Not a troll at all.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 20):
But hey, whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your stance I guess..

Not sure what else to call it.
I didn't make that term up.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Their intention was made clear when they announced the name of the mosque - Cordoba House. I expect they thought that nobody would pick up on the historic relevance - namely the historic practice of building a mosque on the site of a great Islamic victory.

As much as I love cars from that era, I knew there was something I didn't trust about the Cordoba.  
Therefore I never bought one.

Seriously though, these people know that there will be people that will automatically defend them without looking in to the historical significance of this eyesoar at this location.
Yes they bought this property before 9/11.
The planning of the 9/11 attacks was also before 9/11.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
I spent enough time there, so yes. Ataturk's most valuable contribution to Turkey was his recognition that Islam had to be restricted to being "just" a religion, and that Islam did not have a role in civil or political law - i.e. he turned Turkey into a secular state. Knowing that Islamists would continually try to subvert a secular government, he charged the military with a special duty to step in whenever they achieved too much power. Not very democratic in the eyes of westerners, but unfortunately indispensable in a state dominated by Muslims if it wishes to keep a secular government long term with any kind of religious freedom.

  

What's going on right now in Turkey is very troubling, thanks in part to EU influence to try to depoliticize the military, the EU being ignorant of its necessity.

  


Gosh I hate it when I agree with Dreadnought!   

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
Sharia would piss off progressive lefties just as much as it would fundie Christians.

It hasn't pissed off the progressive lefties in Europe, why would the progressive lefties in the US be any less sympathetic?
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OA412
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:05 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
Seriously though, these people know that there will be people that will automatically defend them without looking in to the historical significance of this eyesoar at this location.
Yes they bought this property before 9/11.
The planning of the 9/11 attacks was also before 9/11.

People defend them because it is the law. Besides, what exactly does the fact that the property was purchased prior to 9/11 have to do with the fact that the 9/11 attacks were, obviously, planned prior to 9/11?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
It hasn't pissed off the progressive lefties in Europe, why would the progressive lefties in the US be any less sympathetic?

I'd like to see you prove that. You're sorely mistaken if you believe that any progressive Leftist anywhere is sympathetic to Shariah Law.
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PhilGil
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:09 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
So I presume (tell me if I'm wrong) that there are parts of the Torah not in the Old Testament, which may have provided the justification for respecting "Caesar", as Christ called it.

There's a huge body of Jewish law - people spend their lives studying it. I don't know of anything analogous to "render unto Caesar" in the Old Testament or Talmud, but there certainly could be. My Jewish scholarship ended the day after my Bar Mitzvah   .

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
If you read a bit, you may notice that in the past decade or so Honor Killings and similar violence are on the rise in western countries including the US.

And should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. It's probably going to take a generation for Western values to take hold. Also, the Muslim experience in the US is somewhat different than in Europe - our society is more diverse and inclusive.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
the Catholic Church spent some 1000 years imposing Christianity with far more, shall we say, enthusiasm, than is justified by scripture.

Few religions have diverged more from the principles of their founder than Christianity (and not in a good way). But it also demostrates that religious dogma is not static, and that change can happen. If you look at the Cordoba group's web page (which I linked to in my prior post), you'll see that they are trying to be a force for moving Islam toward a more enlightened, tolerant place.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Like what? If the Germans called their embassy in Paris the Blitzkrieg Building, don't you think the French would be rightfully incensed? This is the same thing.

From their website: "Despite what many think, Islam and the West have a long history of coexistence and harmony. For nearly 800 years, the city of Cordoba in Spain endured as a shining example of tolerance among the three monotheistic religions. Muslim, Christian and Jew cohabited in prosperity during a period known for its outstanding literary and scientific productivity." They may not have thought of all the ramifications of using the name "Cordoba" and, as we've already discussed, there's disagreement as to how well Jews and Christians really lived under the rule of the Caliphate. However, it's hard to argue with the sentiment.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
No I've been a member here for over 10 years.
Not a troll at all.

It was meant somewhat in jest, 'fly. I haven't been an active forum participant for nearly as long as you have, but I've lurked with interest for a long time. It's just so out of character for you to take a stance like this, especially using such inflammatory language.

Yes, the United States was attacked by 19 Muslims on 9/11, but American Muslims are not some kind of secret terrorist army. waiting for orders to strike again That kind of thinking resulted in the internment of over 100,000 innocent Japanese-American men, women and children during the 2nd World War.

I do find it interesting that Doc and I, two Jews, are vocal defenders of the Cordba House. Perhaps a 2,000 year history of religious persecution makes one extra-sensitive when others are at risk of simiar treatment.
 
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:36 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 42):
People defend them because it is the law.

Precisely.
The proponents know exactly how to manipulate the law and get sympathy from a segment of the public.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 42):
what exactly does the fact that the property was purchased prior to 9/11 have to do with the fact that the 9/11 attacks were, obviously, planned prior to 9/11?

I see the two as part of the same movement. You may disagree but I truely believe they are connected.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 42):
You're sorely mistaken if you believe that any progressive Leftist anywhere is sympathetic to Shariah Law.

I hope I am wrong on that observation.
So far, the progressive leftist on these boards and the one's I've spoke to about this very issue in America sound very sympathetic.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 43):
It's just so out of character for you to take a stance like this, especially using such inflammatory language.

Therefore you should be aware of my zest for life and hedonistic lifestyle.  
I am as far removed from any fundamentalist religions person you can get. Therefore I am going to have strong opinions about a religion that is so restrictive and unwilling to assimilate.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 43):
I do find it interesting that Doc and I, two Jews, are vocal defenders of the Cordba House.

Doesn't surprise me one bit.
Being raised here in the US, you've had to deal with intolerance and bigotry from the fundamentalist Christians. The Cordoba House angers the fundamentalist Christians the most. The fundamentalist Christians are the enemy you've had to deal with the most.
I can understand why you take delight in seeing the fundamentalist Christians and idiots like Sarah Palin angry over this. I just wish leftist step back and rethink who they align themselves with.
I dislike the fundamentalist Christians just as much as you do. I hate to say it but this time they are right. I wish I could be in New York right now and join in on the protest.
There are already 2000+ mosque in the USA. There are plenty of places for them to show how civilized and peaceful they are.
Not sure who came up with the term 'Victory Mosque' but it is appropriate.
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mariner
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:44 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Same here. But one of the things the wider world has learned over the past decade (if you were paying attention), is that Islam is not just a religion. Inlike Buddhism, Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, it claims to be a complete system of social and political laws, intolerant of any sort of secular government and based on the UNequal treatment of religions.

Hmmmm?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/hez...+%28Outside+The+Beltway+%7C+OTB%29

"Hezbollah Supports Restoration of Jewish Synagogue in Beirut"

The project received the green light after political officials and community leaders became convinced it could show that Lebanon is an open country, tolerant of many faiths including Judaism.


mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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mariner
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:49 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Their intention was made clear when they announced the name of the mosque - Cordoba House. I expect they thought that nobody would pick up on the historic relevance - namely the historic practice of building a mosque on the site of a great Islamic victory.

But a victory over whom?

http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010...essor-newts-distorted-history.html

"Professor Newt's Distorted History Lesson

The problem is, in order to give that impression of immediacy, Newt elides three hundred years of Christian and Muslim history. Three hundred years. The Muslims conquered Cordoba in 712. The Christian church that was later transformed into the Great Mosque of Cordoba apparently** continued hosting Christian worship for at least a generation after that. Work on the Mosque didn't actually begin until seventy-odd years later in 784, and the mosque only became "the world's third-largest" late in the tenth century, after a series of expansions by much later rulers, probably around 987 or so.

The mosque was indeed begun in the wake of a Muslim conquest--just not the conquest of the Christians. Rather, it was ordered built by the Umayyad emir Abd-ar-Ramman I, probably in part to commemorate his successful conquest of Cordoba in the 750's, fought against other Muslim chieftains loyal to the rival Abbasid Caliphate, and his successful repulsion of subsequent Abbasid attempts to dislodge him by force throughout the 760's."


mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:17 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
I really don't see why people are being so unreasonable about this - it's friggin America.

No it's not. Not to him. His America is one where anyone who disagrees with him is a Communist. Anyone who is Muslim is a terrorist. A Christian nation in which constitutional rights are only guaranteed to those who he likes.

His vision of America is truly frightening.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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PhilGil
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:27 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
I am as far removed from any fundamentalist religions person you can get. Therefore I am going to have strong opinions about a religion that is so restrictive and unwilling to assimilate.

Pew Research Center - May 22, 2007
"The first-ever, nationwide, random sample survey of Muslim Americans finds them to be largely assimilated, happy with their lives, and moderate with respect to many of the issues that have divided Muslims and Westerners around the world."
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/483/muslim-americans

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
I can understand why you take delight in seeing the fundamentalist Christians and idiots like Sarah Palin angry over this. I just wish leftist step back and rethink who they align themselves with.

This isn't a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing. I'm also not a fan of religion of any kind (particularly of the fundamentalist variety). However, since we can't wish religion away, the best we can do is encourage and support moderate, anti-fundamentalist Muslim groups like the Cordoba initiative.

I've yet to see a rational argument advanced against building the community center. And no, "the worldwide Islamic conspiracy" won't work.
 
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:15 am

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 48):
I'm also not a fan of religion of any kind (particularly of the fundamentalist variety).

I am with you on that but for, I'm not a fan of religion of any kind (particularly of the Islamic variety).

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 48):
Pew Research Center - May 22, 2007
"The first-ever, nationwide, random sample survey of Muslim Americans finds them to be largely assimilated, happy with their lives, and moderate with respect to many of the issues that have divided Muslims and Westerners around the world."

I don't trust those stats.
You may want to read up on 3:28 in the Quran.
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