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Emirates773ER
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:23 pm

I think it is sad and pathetic that such a conversation is taking place on an international forum. I would only add one thing to this conversation, if it were Canada building this mosque would not have been a debate.
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AGM100
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:26 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 97):
To me latching onto church-state is just as an excuse to stay out of it by many


Property rights Windy ... a bedrock issue for Americans.

I have admitted on here openly my distrust of Muslims ... I have worked with them , I have interacted with them on every human level and will always treat them like any other person . I don't hate people ... period. But I do have a ingrained distrust of Muslims . It is a life long learning process for me and I have been able to overcome bias in order to live along side and do business with Muslims. But , we are different ... we are not compatible when it comes to freedom ...religion and civil society. Sorry that is just the way it is . The diversity argument is a wonderful idea and I try to practice it everyday ... but I will never be 100% trusting of Muslims .

America will eventually pay a very high price for our diversity ..formations of enclaves and the lack of real integration into our system is inevitable . Islam , like communism is a natural enemy of our free society ...eventually the two will collide and you will have to choose sides.
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cws818
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:38 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 97):
The whole mess is a diplomatic screw-up, mainly Mayor Bloomberg’s fault.

Mayors are not diplomats, they manage cities and are not involved in foreign policy.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 97):
Maybe Odumbo

I'm sorry but who is that?
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Aaron747
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:00 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 69):

You got flamed because the way you express your opinion shows that you have a deep hatred to Islam even moderate Muslims. Maybe you should show that you know that over 90% of Muslims are peace loving people and it is them who represent the real Islam, not some fundamentalists idiots.

I didn't see anything particularly wrong with Superfly's opinion. It is typical of the frustration felt by many Americans and Europeans - if the faith is based on peace, then those who are liberal and moderate muslims need to stage a revolution and kill off this scourge of fundamentalism. Yes, some lives would be lost, but if the faith is defined by unity and strength long-term without the radical influences, it will be worth the effort.

[Edited 2010-08-09 15:06:34 by srbmod]
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Zentraedi
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:10 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Christianity expressly recognized the authority of a secular government. "Render unto Caesar...". Islam contains no such recognition and in fact specifically rejects it.

Yet the current rhetoric from many in the Political and Religious right has disavowed that ideal. Instead, we get this "Freedom of religion not from religion" and they expound upon that to mean you can be whatever version of Protestant that you like and NEVER atheist (which in their eyes should somehow be illegal).

Quoting aloges (Reply 98):
I have never once personally felt Muslim contempt or anger towards myself for not being one. Nor have I ever witnessed someone else suffering it - and I've spent several years living in cities with considerable Muslim populations, including the one with Germany's second largest mosque and a strong presence of US military personnel... oh, and a synagogue as well.

Peaceful coexistence is the norm rather than the exception that Islamophobes make it out to be, and deep friendship is very much possible despite all the fearmongering. Instead of paying attention to those who want to end religious diversity, it's more helpful to live the reality of it and discuss it with people who are actually willing to discuss.

In almost of my contacts with Muslims, they're just average people going about their business. Most Christians are the same, but the problem in the US is that you often come across way too many of the pompous Evangelical type. They always have this air of contempt and superiority. As an American expat, I'll go back to US and mention a quirky story from abroad, and they just have to chime in with some snide comment like "Well, of course! They have no morals. They're not Christian!"

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 101):

I have admitted on here openly my distrust of Muslims ... I have worked with them , I have interacted with them on every human level and will always treat them like any other person . I don't hate people ... period. But I do have a ingrained distrust of Muslims . It is a life long learning process for me and I have been able to overcome bias in order to live along side and do business with Muslims. But , we are different ... we are not compatible when it comes to freedom ...religion and civil society. Sorry that is just the way it is . The diversity argument is a wonderful idea and I try to practice it everyday ... but I will never be 100% trusting of Muslims .

To be honest I would never 100% trusting of Muslims or Christians.
 
cws818
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:19 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 92):
My point is when push comes to shove all Muslims will side with Islam . They have no choice , it is there single binding identity.

What about those like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, for example. Or Rep. Ellison of Minnesota?
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Scorpio
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:29 pm

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 105):
To be honest I would never 100% trusting of Muslims or Christians.

   I'm always weary of people who wear their religion, whatever it is, on their sleeve. Especially when a member of one religion tries to tell me how another religion than his own is so bad, and does it so often that it becomes a little scary, like we have an example here on this board.

[Edited 2010-08-09 15:07:11 by srbmod]
 
sv7887
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:32 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 98):
Peaceful coexistence is the norm rather than the exception that Islamophobes make it out to be, and deep friendship is very much possible despite all the fearmongering. Instead of paying attention to those who want to end religious diversity, it's more helpful to live the reality of it and discuss it with people who are actually willing to discuss.

Tell that to my family who live in India who are regularly attacked by Islamic extremists bankrolled by Pakistan. It's funny you never would see a Hindu temple being built in Pakistan for the oppressed Hindu minority that still lives there. The double standard is amazing.

It's like Hindus putting a temple next to the Sikh Golden Temple where the ill fated Operation Blue Star happened. Good luck on that one. The Sikhs would be justified in being pissed.

Same goes for building a mosque across from a school in Beslan where all those Chechens killed those innocent kids. You really think Russians would allow such a thing?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I very much doubt that. I very much hope that Hindus and Bhuddists would put up a fight and stand up for themselves.

You'd be surprised how difficult it is to get a Temple built in London...The British walked into a Hindu even had a cow (sacred in our religion) killed over "the best interests" of an animal

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/...ity-over-cow-killing_10032430.html

We have a temple in Massachusetts too in Ashland. It's out in the boonies and no one really cares.

Quoting PhilGil (Reply 43):
Yes, the United States was attacked by 19 Muslims on 9/11, but American Muslims are not some kind of secret terrorist army. waiting for orders to strike again That kind of thinking resulted in the internment of over 100,000 innocent Japanese-American men, women and children during the 2nd World War.

The silence from them is amazing.

To Quote Dr. Martin Luther King:

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

And today in a Canadian newspaper two Muslims have this to say:


"New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?

Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within. "

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mi...n/3370303/story.html#ixzz0w8fQ8CsH

At least these two Muslims were brave enough to speak the truth.
 
windy95
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:40 pm

German mosque used by Sept. 11 attackers shut down

A small Hamburg mosque once frequented by Sept. 11 attackers was shut down and searched Monday because German authorities believed the prayer house was again being used as a meeting point for Islamic radicals.

The Taiba mosque was closed and the cultural association that runs it was banned, officials in the northern German city of Hamburg said.

"We have closed the mosque because it was a recruiting and meeting point for Islamic radicals who wanted to participate in so-called jihad or holy war," said Frank Reschreiter, a spokesman for the Hamburg state interior ministry.

http://townhall.com/news/world/2010/...sed_by_sept_11_attackers_shut_down


Another peace loving Mosque.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:02 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 63):

That's your interpretation but I see little to support it. The whole point of Christianity as taught by Christ is that each of us has an individual choice whether to follow his teachings or not. There is no role for government whatsoever.

That's the point of Islam, too. The Q'uran says "there is no compulsion in religion." Period. End of story. You do not force someone to be Muslim.

So BOTH religions then got taken over by fundies (who love to do the opposite of what their respective Good Books say) and now the resulting mess is... messy.
-Doc Lightning-

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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:29 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 110):

That's the point of Islam, too. The Q'uran says "there is no compulsion in religion." Period. End of story. You do not force someone to be Muslim.

But at the same time it also says that Non-Muslims should be treated as inferiors and do not have the same rights as Muslims. So, yes, they may not force conversions, you are told in no uncertain terms that your life will be unpleasant if you don't. Ask the Copts of Egypt how they like living among Muslims. Egyptians who convert to Christianity run the risk of death if it is found out.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...ific/2010/08/2010886496589764.html

http://continentalnews.net/christian...uffer-extortion-beatings-2015.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/can...ALeqM5hs4893PMIxdfZaSmLpXlq_tn1dPw
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PhilGil
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:40 pm

 
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 111):

But at the same time it also says that Non-Muslims should be treated as inferiors and do not have the same rights as Muslims.

Quote the verse in Q'uran.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 111):
So, yes, they may not force conversions, you are told in no uncertain terms that your life will be unpleasant if you don't.

Apparently you don't know much about what it's like to be a non-Christian in the U.S. It's gotten better in the last few decades, but my mother could tell you stories about the kids throwing stones at her and calling her a Kike. And about how her family had to put up a Christmas tree to stop the rocks from coming in through the windows.

I promise you the stone throwers weren't Muslims.
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aloges
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:38 pm

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 108):
Tell that to my family who live in India who are regularly attacked by Islamic extremists bankrolled by Pakistan. It's funny you never would see a Hindu temple being built in Pakistan for the oppressed Hindu minority that still lives there. The double standard is amazing.

We're not discussing Pakistan or India, but the USA.
I said that peaceful coexistence of religions is the norm - not that there is no religious violence.
There is Hindu nationalism as well.
Pakistan and India have one of the most tense international relationships in the world, so there are many causes of violence.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 109):
German mosque used by Sept. 11 attackers shut down

Shut down because investigations proved that the place was frequented by fundamentalists. If there was actual proof of fundamentalist activities inside the group that wants to built the community centre in New York City, that would change the picture - and not just slightly. And legal proof does not come in the form of a media frenzy.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 109):
Another peace loving Mosque.

So you think that all mosques are the same?
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Flighty
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:09 pm

This is kind of a funny issue because those who were against the Mosque in NYC (and there were many Repubs), are going to be nailed for it one by one. They are being reproached for their religious bigotry and this will be dragged out to great effect.

Ultimately, the people who said "the Jews cant build it here" are exactly like "the mosque can't be built here." It is the exact same issue, and it will damage the careers of those who said it in the same way. This will be assured by Muslim citizen groups, who will defend their rights as Americans. They will get many scalps on this.

Racism and anti-freedom forces are both despised by the American mainstream. If people want to end their careers over this, it will be fun to watch.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:25 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 108):

Another peace loving Mosque.

Need I show you the actions of Westborough Baptist Church?

Or maybe the Jewish Defense Force?
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SOBHI51
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:54 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 103):
Yawn. You%u2019re still at this old one huh? Anyone who FACTUALLY points out the flaws of Islam is a racist, a hater, etc in your mind. Maybe if you keep repeating this lie enough, someone will believe it. But your own track record on this matter, sir, is rife with your own refusal to debate the issue on its merit, and then when the going gets rough, you cry to the mods to delete posts and threads.


You can yawn from here to eternity, i refuse to discuss religious matters with people who do not not have respect to my religion, you can be my enemy but i will still respect you, as for deleting posts i am sure the mods are smart enough to delete any posts written with hate and bigotry or personal and family attack, without me asking them to do it, few times i requested that we start a respectful debate without you filling your postings with insult but you always refused to respond, so who is afraid of a proper debate?


I have a general question here, if a American Jew goes to Israel, and for a reason or another a war broke out between those 2 countries where will that person stand, and will religion have any input in his decision?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 108):
Another peace loving Mosque.


If the Mosque was a meeting place for radical Muslims i will be the first to call for it to be closed and given to moderate Muslims to run it.
But does that mean all Mosques are a meeting place for radical Muslims?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Apparently you don't know much about what it's like to be a non-Christian in the U.S. It's gotten better in the last few decades, but my mother could tell you stories about the kids throwing stones at her and calling her a Kike. And about how her family had to put up a Christmas tree to stop the rocks from coming in through the windows.

We are talking about now, not 50 years ago.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 112):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 111):

But at the same time it also says that Non-Muslims should be treated as inferiors and do not have the same rights as Muslims.

Quote the verse in Q'uran.


Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the Jizya, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:6 And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

From the Hadith:

Muslim (19:4294) - "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Ishaq 956 & 962 - "He who withholds the Jizya is an enemy of Allah and His apostle."

Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"

Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" (Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition with the mission of destroying a local religion in Yemen.)

"The honor of Islam lies in insulting the unbelief and the unbelievers (kafirs). One who respects kafirs dishonors Muslims... The real purpose of levying the Jizya on them is to humiliate them... [and] they remain terrified and trembling." M. A. Khan

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1440118477?...0118477&adid=10MRWA60EDX3DZJ7GN7T&

The Qur'an makes it clear that the collection of jizya is is the ideal relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims. The verse mandating this (9:5) occurs much later than the verse stating that there is "no compulsion in religion" (2:256), meaning that it takes precedence and abrogates what came before. The message is clear: If non-muslims submit and pay the jizya, OK, but if they don't Muslims are duty bound to kill them.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:07 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 118):
The verse mandating this (9:5) occurs much later than the verse stating that there is "no compulsion in religion" (2:256), meaning that it takes precedence and abrogates what came before.

That's not how abrogation works in Islam. The Qu'ran is not organized chronologically - actually, the books are sorted by length, with the longer ones first and the shorter ones later. There are two classes of sura, Meccan and Medinan; Meccan suras were the earlier ones, written before Muhammad was expelled from Mecca, and Medinan suras are the later ones, written when he was setting up the first Islamic community in Medina. The Medinan suras tend to be harsher towards non-Muslims, in large part because the growing Islamic community was under physical attack by non-Muslim tribes in the area. Both Sura 2 and Sura 9 are Medinan suras.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 118):
The real purpose of levying the Jizya on them is to humiliate them... [and] they remain terrified and trembling.

One interpretation, perhaps, but not the only one. Non-Muslims wouldn't have to pay zakat (the obligatory charity demanded of all Muslims), so it seems reasonable that they be expected to chip in somewhat for social services. Also, non-Muslims were not allowed to serve in the military, so they had to pay the government for their military protection.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 95):
Here are a few examples of some modern Muslims here in the west with NO connections to Al Queda or any terrorist group.

The plural of anecdote is not data.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 1:14 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 119):
That's not how abrogation works in Islam. The Qu'ran is not organized chronologically

I know that. As I recall, Sura 2 was the very first of the Medina Suras - there are about 30 of them. Sura 9 was the last Medina Sura (and thus the last sura of the Quran).
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Superfly
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:26 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 99):
And you will see nobody here defending the practices from those articles. But the insinuation that this is somehow representative of modern-day moderate Muslims, and that they're all the same, as you are once again implying despite stating the opposite as a cover, once again shows your true, and very ugly, colors.

So in a nutshell it all comes down to me thinking you're an apologist and you thinking I'm ugly.  
That is ok with me if you think I'm ugly.
Let's just leave it at that.

Quoting sv7887 (Reply 107):
It's like Hindus putting a temple next to the Sikh Golden Temple where the ill fated Operation Blue Star happened. Good luck on that one. The Sikhs would be justified in being pissed.
Quoting sv7887 (Reply 107):
You'd be surprised how difficult it is to get a Temple built in London...The British walked into a Hindu even had a cow (sacred in our religion) killed over "the best interests" of an animal

WOW!
They would never do something so insulting to a mosque. If they did, they would have unleashed lots of violence and the press would have blamed the British.





Quoting aloges (Reply 113):
We're not discussing Pakistan or India, but the USA.

It's part of the same conquest so yes Pakistan is valid in this discussion.
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mariner
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:15 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 101):
I have admitted on here openly my distrust of Muslims ... I have worked with them , I have interacted with them on every human level and will always treat them like any other person . I don't hate people ... period. But I do have a ingrained distrust of Muslims .

I find that very sad.

Although British, I was born and brought up in the Middle East, and was usually in places where I was the only white child, or one of very, very few.

Because my father worked for an airline he used to send me, every school holidays, traveling by myself throughout the Middle East and Africa, from the age of about eleven.

Often, I was entirely dependent on the kindness of brown and black strangers and I found that kindness, that hospitality, everywhere I went. I was never scared, never frightened, I was protected and befriended. At school, I was welcomed in mosques with my class mates, but no attempt was ever made to convert me to Islam.

When I was older I went back and once, on the Kenya./Uganda border, became involved in a very ugly little war. I owe my life, literally, to a Muslim black man who had four wives, and who talked some young Ugandan soldiers out of shooting me.

Nor were they trying to shoot me because of my religion or the color of my skin, simply because I was, their orders told them, where I was not supposed to be.

mariner
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AGM100
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:34 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 122):
mariner



Like you signature say's life is journey not a destination .... I am open minded enough to grow as our relationship with Islam changes. No one can dispute your experiences , and no one can dispute that there are wonderful people in every race and religion . I am just stating my inner feeling's ... I too lived in the middle east as a young man growing up . I too this day do business with Muslims from Asia and the middle east and am always respectful and treat them like any other customer. But I am aware of our differences ... deep inside I know we are "apposed" in many way's ... sorry . The blame may be on me ...but that is just reality .

I will not feel comfortable walking past a Mosque near Ground Zero ... I will hear the ghosts of the hijackers praising Allah as they forced the yoke forward on that fateful day.
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mariner
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:26 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 123):
will not feel comfortable walking past a Mosque near Ground Zero ... I will hear the ghosts of the hijackers praising Allah as they forced the yoke forward on that fateful day.

I've stayed out of that part of the debate because I am not American and don't live in the US anymore.

But as someone who loves and profoundly respects America - and is exceptionally grateful to America - I think the concept of that mosque is the greatest tribute I can imagine to the American concept of freedom.

To me, the terrorists absolutely don't "win" as some have suggested - they lose big time. And whatever Mr. Gingrich thinks about the relevance of the name - Cordoba - I am much more taken by the last paragraph from the article I posted in #46:

"So it's easy to see why a group of Muslims creating a community center in the heart of a majority Christian country in a city known for its large Jewish population might name it "The Cordoba House" They're not, as Gingrich hopes we would believe, discreetly laughing at us because "Cordoba" is some double-secret Islamist code for "conquest"; rather, they're hoping to associate themselves with a particular time in medieval history when the largest library in Western Europe was to be found in Cordoba, a city in which scholars of all three major Abrahamic religions were free to study side-by-side."

mariner

[Edited 2010-08-09 22:28:12]
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Doona
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:23 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 123):
I will not feel comfortable walking past a Mosque near Ground Zero ... I will hear the ghosts of the hijackers praising Allah as they forced the yoke forward on that fateful day.

I can understand that it can bring up rough memories. But if the hijackers had been Christians, would people oppose building a Christian Church there?

Cheers
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Scorpio
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:27 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 121):
So in a nutshell it all comes down to me thinking you're an apologist and you thinking I'm ugly.

Indeed, the difference being that I can back up my stance, and you've shown repeatedly by your deafening silence or cheap excuses when asked to back yours up, that you can't.
 
SA7700
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RE: Anti-Mosque Protests Abound

Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:20 pm

This thread will be locked as it contains multiple forum rule violations by various members. Any posts added after the thread lock will be deleted for housekeeping purposes only.


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