I'm not sure how to start this...

I'm currently 16, I want to visit the UK to see what its like to live there. If I like it, I eventually want to move out of the United States.

What do I have to do in order to travel overseas, as I am still a minor?
Are there any schools over there that I could go to or any exchange programs that I could get into?
How is the economy over there? Is it easy to find work? Is housing affordable? Doe's the UK look down on people from the USA?
I'm kinda just getting tired of the United States, everything is slowly going down the drains here.
How easy would it be for me to move over sea's?
I know its not going to be too easy, its not like I can just up and go..
What places would you recommend living?

I want to find somewhere that is clean, very little crime (Probably not possible). I thought about Amsterdam or maybe even London. I'm just not totally sure about it yet. I'm just looking for opinions, I do not need any one to be judgmental towards my "Big Idea" either.

What would be the best places to live over in the UK?
Do I have to have any special skills to live there?
What about any certain permits?
I know I would have to have a VISA as well as a Passport..
What would you recommend?


I have alot of questions, Im just looking for answers at the moment..

Robert

I'm quite biased because I'm a volunteer for AFS, but start here: www.afs.org - bit of a problem with the UK though, that national AFS organisation folded years ago IIRC.

And because you should always check out more than one option, I suggest you read up a bit on other not-for-profit exchange organisations such as YFU and Rotary.

Why the U.K?

Have you thought of countries like Australia or New Zealand who are probably more open to immigration especially for younger people and where finding employment might be a lot easier for a young man such as yourself?

These two countries might even have work/stay/study programs and visas?

The E.U. is not doing too good right now and the U.K. is going through a lot of financial cuts so maybe this is not the right time to go there unless just as a tourist. This is why I am thinking of "newer" countries such as Australia and New Zealand..This is just my own thought.

You might want to look into working for accredited youth hostels. I have always seen young people from many different countries working legally in hostels in trade for room, sometimes food and some money too.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Doe's the UK look down on people from the USA?

Hell no! Well I can't speak for us all but I love people from the USA!

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): What would be the best places to live over in the UK?

A big town or City would be good. London take your fancy? As a resident (outer London) I love it here. I'm close enough for a short train ride to the city centre and 1 hour from the beach by car. Best of both worlds.

Good luck with your travel plans!

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): everything is slowly going down the drains here.

The thing is, the USA isn't alone. Economically, much of the western world is hurting, and Europe is just as bad off as the USA for the most part...Politically, same thing, politicians are the same the world over - scummy.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Is it easy to find work? Is housing affordable?

One of my favorite lines is from The Sopranos, when Meadow wants to up and move to France...something along the lines of "wait until she realizes you need a work permit to get a job in Europe, and the French hold on to those like their balls!"

Housing is often more expensive, taxes are higher through most of Europe. That's definitely something to factor in.

I am not saying don't do it...just be realistic. You are 16, and I understand you can get quite fed up with the state of the USA, but realize that Europe really isn't that much different. Having lived in two countries on two different continents (MUCH different than North America vs. Europe), I understand the thinking that other places MUST be better, but that's simply not always true.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): What would be the best places to live over in the UK?

Depends what you're in to. Obviously London is amazing, but ridiculously huge and ridiculously expensive. Birmingham, Manchester are in my book pretty awful (sorry to all that live there!). I love Newcastle, Bristol, Belfast and Cardiff myself...a good mix of city and laid back.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Do I have to have any special skills to live there?

Bad teeth   

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I know I would have to have a VISA as well as a Passport..

Depending what you want to do, there are a multitude of different visas...work vs. student vs. tourist, and even others too. Work visas require going through a company to sponsor you...student visas obviously require you to be a student at a local university.

It is good that you are considering a visit before deciding whether or not this would make a good suitable home for you. When you make this visit, which hopefully is soon, be sure to go off the beaten path and look at the type of housing that is available. You will have to look at some neighborhoods and the businesses such as groceries, department stores, etc. that you will be using. Getting a good sense of cost will help you in making your decision. The longer you stay, the better idea you will have of what it is like to live there.

I would strongly recommend trying to somehow become an exchange student. That way, you could make an informed decision even before graduation.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm kinda just getting tired of the United States, everything is slowly going down the drains here.

In Europe, most countries including the UK are a few steps ahead already. So unless you are planning to live in Luxembourg, its the same story in most countries.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): How is the economy over there? Is it easy to find work? Is housing affordable?

Depends where you are. London is expensive and rents are very high. You can still get a job but I have friends in Finance with very good salaries that still struggle with their expenses in London.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I thought about Amsterdam or maybe even London

I would avoid London, don't get me wrong, lived there for two years and loved it. But, in order to be able to live somewhere nice and safe, you need to spend loads of $$ on rent and even that will get you maybe a 400 sq ft apartment. Also, most foreigners think of London and get scenes of nice neighbourhoods and Mary Poppins. In reality, I found London to be a very rough city, even at the central and touristy areas. So if you will be that young, alone and looking for somewhere "safe", there are better options. I would rather live in other cities, I liked Brighton (also a bit pricey) and the areas around Kent and Surrey which are not that far from London.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Do I have to have any special skills to live there?

Speak proper English

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I know I would have to have a VISA as well as a Passport..

I don't think you need a visa for a short stay but you should get one if you want to move there. I am not sure how easy it will be and what the prerequisites are (age, job etc)

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Doe's the UK look down on people from the USA?

No, not really.

Quoting lewis (Reply 6): Depends where you are. London is expensive and rents are very high. You can still get a job but I have friends in Finance with very good salaries that still struggle with their expenses in London.

  

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I do not need any one to be judgmental towards my "Big Idea" either.

I really hate to say this without sounding like a complete a**hole and judgemental bastard but the reality is that you have no idea how big the magnitude of your question is or what you really are asking. You are 16 (!!!) and always have lived in the USA compounding with the fact that you probably speak only 1 language, hold no dual (EU) citizenship) and have never had a salaried job in your life, gone to college or hell even vacationed in Europe.

The best suggestion anyone can give you is to go and visit Europe. It sounds like you dont have family in Europe (much easier to visit this way at a young age) maybe it would be an idea for you to go with your parents for a vacation, only if for a short while. Otherwise you can wait till you are 18, take your passport and go as you please.

Also Im not sure that study abroad in college is really the way to go to make an opinion. My personal opinion of this is that it is set up mostly for American kids this side of the pond so they can see what its like but they really dont learn any aspect of real life. Their actions are usually controlled somehow via school or teacher that goes or something like this as well as where they stay etc. In my opinion a 14 day vacation alone at the age of 18 with no pre-set plans will teach you more what its like than 4 months of study abroad in the same place.

That being said if you are prepared to move to (Western) Europe in some points of time I would suggest preparing yourself for a few changes and sacrificing alot of everyday convenience. Ill tell you that whenever I go back I get pissed off with how inconvenient Europe is after Ive been there for 2-3 months and generally just want to go back because Im a lazy bastard and I like to drive in my car to the corner store even if its only 300m away. And if you think the bureaucracy is bad in the US you are in for a very rude surprise.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Doe's the UK look down on people from the USA?

I did a study abroad program in London for 3 months. I never really felt like I was looked down upon. It was actually quite the opposite. Everyone was very welcoming and very open to speaking with you/helping you out.

I had 1 instant that was unsettling/funny. My second to last day I was running in Hyde Park and had a shirt on that had the words New Jersey on it. A homeless looking lady began to yell and curse at me as I went by her. But that's minor compared to my entire experience there.

Taking a UK example...

One possible pathway is to attend a college in the US that has an agreement with a UK university. A friend of mine from California did such a thing, and attended my university for a year; she'd have stayed longer had it been possible!

London is a great place to visit regardless of whether or not you are thinking about living in the UK, but there are a few things to consider:

As others have said, London isn't necessarily the easiest city to get to grips with as a new resident. It's big, can be impersonal, and is certainly expensive. Granted, you'll never lack things to see and do, but you might lack the funds to do them! Most people who work in London live in the suburbs and even further out of the city.

Also, London isn't the whole UK (or indeed the whole of England). If you get on a train from London for three hours, you will find completely different cultures, whether you go to the North East, North West, or South West. Major cities such as Bristol, Newcastle and Manchester as well as, beyond England, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Glasgow, offer a richness of culture and unique experiences often missed by visitors to this part of the world. The atmosphere is somewhat different, particularly in the Northern cities, and people are often more outgoing - although this can startle people from the south of the UK, you may find you like it.

If you want the thrills of London, you don't have to live there. However much the British may complain about public transit, it really isn't all that bad! Even cities a fair way from London generally benefit from excellent links to the city; Oxford (about 55 miles from London), for example, is an hour by train from the capital, and about an hour and a half by regular motorcoaches running 24 hours a day. So you can have the convenience of a smaller city and yet have the amenities of London within easy reach.

[Edited 2010-10-27 12:20:26]

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 7): I really hate to say this without sounding like a complete a**hole and judgemental bastard

Well. You failed.......

And to be honest, Im more mature than you may think I am.

In other words.....

Thank you everybody for the excellent information


Robert

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 9): Glasgow, offer a richness of culture and unique experiences often missed by visitors to this part of the world.

Did you just use the words "Glasgow" and 'culture" in one sentence?      

I have not read any of the comments in this thread but having read only the title I would say:

Airplane!

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 10): Well. You failed....... And to be honest, Im more mature than you may think I am. In other words..... Thank you everybody for the excellent information

Not questioning your level of maturity at all here because I just dont know you and unlike most people here I wont label you immature or mature. What I do know is hard facts that you simply just dont realize the scope or magnitude of your question because of your age and lack of real world experience...and no Im not talking about a part time or even full time hourly job here.

Everyone in this thread can tell you what its like in their view but honestly its all meaningless until you go see it an experience it. My suggestion is the less restrictions you have when you go the better. Playing tourist in London in Amsterdam wouldnt give you much insight in what its like to live there other than the fact you will hear people with funny accents, see funny looking cars and small portions of food.

You are asking some obvious questions here that can even be answered in high school by any college recruiter. Almost every school I have heard of in the US has exchange programs for example, and almost always more than 1 to Europe.

For every 10 people here that are going to recommend London, 10 more will not recommend it for the exact opposite reasons and so it goes around.

Also Im not sure how much you read the news or follow international finance, cultural events and general economics but I suggest you start reading something like the Economist and international news outlets before saying "Im sick of things going down the drain here" and wanting to move to the UK. Its like saying, Im sick of the lack of Womens Rights in the US so I think I will go and move to the Middle East.

That being said I get frustrated here too and wish I could move away if only for a good while, but financially it doesnt make any sense. The US provides opportunities especially at a younger age that Europe just doesnt. With relatively low taxes (especially for people like you and me who live in Florida) and a laughably low cost of living it is extremely easy to live like people in London only dream about on salaries that are 5x greater. I feel claustrophobic in Europe after a good while and this is the biggest disadvantage in my opinion, but if your perogative is to be an artist and draw by the Thames or Seine or perhaps write a book in some cafe in Vienna then by all means dont let anyone stop you.

[Edited 2010-10-27 12:25:08]

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 10): Well. You failed....... And to be honest, Im more mature than you may think I am. In other words..... Thank you everybody for the excellent information

He may have come out a bit harsh but I see his point and how important it is. You are very young and choosing to move to the other side of the world alone is not easy, especially since you haven't visited Europe before.

Try and take a trip before making a decision, visit many places, although if you do not speak any other languages you may be limited to the UK and maybe the Netherlands.

As others suggested, getting in a college programme with a year abroad would be ideal. Also, try and look for summer school programmes and exchange programmes, another way to see the country before actually commiting to a move. And remember once again, big cities in Europe are equally rough as US cities, don't expect just the charming side that you see in movies, so picking a safe place to live in your age is very important!

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm currently 16, I want to visit the UK to see what its like to live there. If I like it, I eventually want to move out of the United States.

As a Canadian living in the UK (London) who knows American culture very well -- the UK is not all its cracked up to be. The things that strike me tend to revolve on how less 'free' the UK is compared to the US or even Canada. We're not allowed to stand on desks due to Health and Safety Regulations. Everything has government issued warning labels. Here, I will give you an example, my blanket says "Keep away from fire and naked flame". I don't know, coming from a part of the world that has so little of the same nanny-state qualities it gets to me. The job prospects here are not currently particularly good unless your in some areas of finance or consulting. Plus the US is likely to be out of these dire circumstances by the time you finish university (if that's your plan) and the job prospects will be much, much better.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I know I would have to have a VISA as well as a Passport..

To travel for less than three months (don't quote me on that #) you don't need one as a US citizen. To study or live/work here you do. We've noticed that there are a lot of visa delays at my school this year -- just something to think about.

http://thebeaveronline.co.uk/2010/10...sa-delays-leave-students-grounded/

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm kinda just getting tired of the United States, everything is slowly going down the drains here.

Yes but it will get better. And if it doesn't you could move to Canada! All the comforts of a US home with a stable banking and financial system!

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 7): And if you think the bureaucracy is bad in the US you are in for a very rude surprise.

   The bureaucracy here is absolutely maddening. You have it much better in the US!!!

Why is everyone assuming that im moving by myself?

Robert

Quoting lewis (Reply 14): He may have come out a bit harsh but I see his point and how important it is. You are very young and choosing to move to the other side of the world alone is not easy, especially since you haven't visited Europe before.

  

I think it would be wise for everyone in this thread to read this link in our young friends profile to see where he is coming from (which Im assuming is about him):

http://www.tampabay.com/features/rel...far-from-uncertainty-below/1078638

An update would be good how you are doing in school and what the plan is for the next 1-2 years so at least you can visit Europe first. Then we can help in realistic ways.

Let me put it in a simple way, I hold dual citizenship, need no visa to work/stay in the EU, Ive lived half of my life there and live 100 miles away from you in Florida, would have no culture shock, make good money in a salaried position, speak 2 other languages and it is still an almost impossible task for me to just pick up and move over there unless my job warranted it. This would be like climbing a mountain twice the size of Everest if we speculated for you how hard it really is.

Ok, just a few thoughts and in now way do I want to discourage your "Big Dream"

I grew up in Montreal, Canada and IMHO, they absolute key to being able to immigrate or move about to live in different countries is a top education. Countries don't want just another bartender or burger flipper, but they do want educated people.

So.... keep in school and keep plugging.

When I was 19, and like you having a desire to "get out there" and experience the world, I applied and was accepted at Stirling University in Scotland. I lived in residence, but it's only when you acutally live day-by-day that you start to get a feel for a country and what it's like to live there. As a tourist or short term visitor, you really don't.

I stayed in Stirling until moving back to Canada to get into the University and courses that I wanted here in Canada. Since University (the first time) then years later, the second time, I've lived and worked in several countries. But it's my basic education and job skills that have allowed that movement. I strongly encourage you to do the same. Sure it's tough in your mid-teen years, but you're only getting started on life. Give yourself the absolute best chance to succeed for many, many years in the future by getting a good education.

Then..... the WORLD is your Oyster!!!!

Best of luck and enjoy the adventure.

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 16): Why is everyone assuming that im moving by myself? Robert

Even if it was with someone, I feel that this someone knows very little about the reality of this situation otherwise you would not be asking these questions. You can always expand and tell us what the plan is though.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): How is the economy over there? Is it easy to find work? Is housing affordable? Doe's the UK look down on people from the USA?

Terrible, next to impossible and very expensive. Trust me, I'm 18 and I can't get a job at all. Nowhere will take me on, and I'm from the UK. An immigrant I would assume would have no chance at a young age.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): What do I have to do in order to travel overseas, as I am still a minor?

Nothing out of the ordinary. As long as you have a return flight booked within 3 months and you can prove you have enough funds to sustain yourself while you are here, then you should have no problem. The immigration officer may be a tad suspicious of your age, but I went to Switzerland at 16 and all I got was a "bonjour" and "merci" as I went through immigration.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Do I have to have any special skills to live there? What about any certain permits? I know I would have to have a VISA as well as a Passport..

You need to have a skill that is considered to be seriously in need. You won't get it by just having your GED - you'll need some serious sponsorship from an employer and the academic qualifications to back it up.

Hope it helped.

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 10): And to be honest, Im more mature than you may think I am.

But you're really not...you don't have the life experience to soundly decide to make such a life change. No one is calling you stupid. Those of us with more life experience just know that the wise man will take some time. I suggest you sit on this idea for about a decade. Possibly even longer.

STAY IN SCHOOL. Finish high school and work HARD. Go to college--a good one. Maybe study abroad for a semester or a year in the UK. Heck, better yet, if you think you can--look into getting in to Oxford or Cambridge. I knew people who did it. If you can't get into a top UK school, there are other very good academic institutions there.

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 9): One possible pathway is to attend a college in the US that has an agreement with a UK university. A friend of mine from California did such a thing, and attended my university for a year; she'd have stayed longer had it been possible!

A great idea!

The bottom line is this...you've got the advantage of being at a stage in your life where you can make some patently amazing things happen. You have to work HARD now. If you follow the example I provided, you're going to put yourself in a much better position in life. You may even decide you like it over here, get a great job, and buy a summer home in the Cotswolds or something.

Quoting AF340 (Reply 15): Everything has government issued warning labels. Here, I will give you an example, my blanket says "Keep away from fire and naked flame".

Seriously? And you haven't seen something similar in the US? Here I haven't stopped saying "Duh!" since I arrived! These are the ones I remembered in the past few seconds.

-Objects are closer than they appear
-Warning, hot beverage (I know, that is what I ordered)
-Do not go in washing machine - with appropriate drawing (why would I do that?)


And it is not just the warning ones:
-Actual potato chips smaller than pictured (or something) - Ruffles bag.

Sometimes I feel the government/companies here assume that all people have a low IQ.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22): Sometimes I feel the government/companies here assume that all people have a low IQ.

May I ?

Quoting lewis (Reply 22): Sometimes I feel the government/companies here assume that all people have a low IQ.

Those warnings wouldn't be there if someone hadn't done exactly what they warn against... I'm not saying Americans are stupid, but those warnings are there for a reason, and honestly, some people need to be reminded of things that seem like common sense!

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): How is the economy over there?

If you are seriously considering europe, then Norway is a good place right now. Low unemployment at 2.8 % and good economy ( one of the very few places in europe right now where this is the case ). However I'm not sure how easy it is to get a perminant residence permit. I'm guessing it' will be difficult unless you already have gotten a job offer before you get here.

As several has mentioned already, you should really only stay for a period, like an echange program or extended holiday and get a feel for the place,before you decide to move. It's a big step and often the case is that living in a country is very different than vacationing in one.

Ofcourse even though most Norwegian understand and speak english pretty good and english is used at certain work places as work language ( american companies in Norway for instance ), Norwegian is the main language and you will be required to learn a certain amount of Norwegian.

[Edited 2010-10-27 13:43:39]

Quoting san747 (Reply 24): I'm not saying Americans are stupid

I am...

(and yes, I am a US citizen so I can say that  )

Quoting san747 (Reply 24): Those warnings wouldn't be there if someone hadn't done exactly what they warn against... I'm not saying Americans are stupid, but those warnings are there for a reason, and honestly, some people need to be reminded of things that seem like common sense!

I think the point he is making is that 99.99% of the population would not make this mistake and if put a warning for every stupid thing someone does youd see trees on the side of the read with signs attached that read "Do not climb tree - risk of falling" and grass infront of your house with a sign that read "Warning - Do not sit on grass - May stain clothes"

What really should happen is we should get rid of idiot lawsuits then all of this would go away, and not excuse it with "some people need reminding," No thinking human in modern society needs to be reminded of common sense that is used on a daily basis.

Quoting san747 (Reply 24): Those warnings wouldn't be there if someone hadn't done exactly what they warn against... I'm not saying Americans are stupid, but those warnings are there for a reason, and honestly, some people need to be reminded of things that seem like common sense!

No doubt, my point was that these warnings are not excessive just in Europe, they are equally if not more present in the US and Canada.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I have alot of questions, Im just looking for answers at the moment..

To answer a couple:

At 16 you can not buy an airline ticket. You must be 18 to enter into a contract and an airline ticket is a contract for passage.

If you want to live in the UK you will require a work or student visa, a sponsor and an income (job or scholarship). At 16 no country is going to allow you to enter without some way to support yourself.

There is no place on the face of the earth where there is no crime.

As for your statement about some place clean? A clean place in one country would be a dump in another!

My flat (apartment) in the UK cost me $1800 a month. If that same flat is in the US they could not rent it because of all the code violations.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm kinda just getting tired of the United States, everything is slowly going down the drains here.

People always think the grass is greener on the other side but you should certainly travel around Europe maybe work in a few countries and if you still feel the same then make the move. I did the opposite when I was 19 and went to live with my Dad's extended family in California. I loved the initial experience of it all but then after the novelty wore off I realised the USA was not a place I wanted to settle in and packed up and came back to the UK. Im pretty much settled in Ireland now and despite the economic issues I cant see myself leaving. Maybe you should look at Ireland also, quite alot of American students here in various Universities.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 30): I did the opposite when I was 19 and went to live with my Dad's extended family in California. I loved the initial experience of it all but then after the novelty wore off I realised the USA was not a place I wanted to settle in and packed up and came back to the UK.

I still have mixed feelings about my move, I haven't yet fully realized where I am, but I am certainly not packing up to go back home any time soon!

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 27):

   Outlets (still) don't come with warning labels, as should blankets. I'm glad we don't have them (to this extend) over here.

And to the original poster:
I guess you have two possibilities:
1) Become an exchange student (see Aloges' link)
2) Finish school in the U.S., perhaps start studying there and *then* see what you can do outside the U.S. You could then study abroad for a while or do volunteer work at e.g. a lion shelter in Africa and bottle-feed lion or leopard cubs

If your plans to come to Europe for a while take shape in a year or three, things like economy, unemployment and visa regulations may have changed heavily. Germany was long Europe's economic powerhouse and then, after re-unification, "Europe's sick man" with close to 6 million people unemployed. At the moment we are the "powerhouse" again with an unemployment rate half of what we nearly became used to. I'm very much confident Britain and the U.S. will recover quickly

You have at least three assets: You are young and healthy, you have a dream and you are most likely intelligent. You can achieve a lot if you just don't let yourself down.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm kinda just getting tired of the United States, everything is slowly going down the drains here.

I'm going to come across as a jerk, it's not my intention, but there's no NICE way to type what I'm about to ask. What experience of yours are you basing this on? Emo rockers? Existentialist "thinkers?" Twenty-somethings struggling to find the meaning of life living off of daddy's credit card? Idealistic professors dreaming of a utopia? A picture of Europe is painted as a socially free, accepting place that cares about its people more than money and everybody gets along. The reality is somewhat different. If you haven't been anywhere how can you know that? Things are not at their best in most places right now--there's a reason it's called the GLOBAL financial crisis. I'm certainly not the most well-travelled person here, but I've lived in four very different countries culturally and geographically (including Western Europe) and I can say with a lot of certainly that the United States has one of the highest standards of living on the planet. Also, disregard it if you wish, but the United States is still far more socially accepting of heterogeneity and cultural differences than most places. The way the world's economies are connected, if a major one sneezes, many others will catch the flu.

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 10): And to be honest, Im more mature than you may think I am.

If that is true then you needn't tell anybody that.   Also, punctuation helps  

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 16): Why is everyone assuming that im moving by myself?

Because moving with someone else would imply that you either have a relationship or have an arrangement with friends. Most of us who once were sixteen know that relationships and friendships between sixteen-year-olds are more likely to fail than last. Not a slam, just a fact. Of my friends that I knew and associated with when I graduated high school six years ago, I speak to TWO more than twice a year.

I don't think it's a bad idea to think about living in other places, I would just examine my rationale  . Also, bear in mind, that unless people expatriate themselves/are expatriated for political reasons, over half of them will return home within I believe three years.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 33): Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm kinda just getting tired of the United States, everything is slowly going down the drains here. I'm going to come across as a jerk, it's not my intention, but there's no NICE way to type what I'm about to ask. What experience of yours are you basing this on? Emo rockers? Existentialist "thinkers?"

Still, studying or working abroad is generally a good idea. Unless you get beaten up or killed (which can happen everywhere) adding some change to your life is healthy. Hence, rutley21 should follow his dream and investigate the possibilities. Only the motivation, "the U.S. is going downhill", should be a different one.

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 10): And to be honest, Im more mature than you may think I am.

That's what I thought about myself as well. With greater age comes greater maturity, and greater awareness of how mature you actually are and were.

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm kinda just getting tired of the United States, everything is slowly going down the drains here.

In the whole country? I'm assuming, at 16, you haven't lived in all that many places. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to Europe - do what's in your heart - but the US is gigantic, and there is tons of diversity within its borders.

Quoting rutley21 (Reply 16): Why is everyone assuming that im moving by myself?

Probably because of this:

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I want

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I eventually want

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I have to do

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I could go to

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I could get into

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm kinda

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): me to move

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I can

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I want

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I thought

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm just

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I'm just

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I do no

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I have

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I know I would

No plural pronouns to be found.

Come to Swindon, it may sound like a shit hole, but it's cheap, you've get everything you could ever want and it's only an hour away by train from that big London place. You can go to college in Swindon however there aren't any universities.

Actually, Swindon does have one big famous feature, a roundabout.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 4): Bad teeth

Indeed. Ref The Simpsons and the Big Book of British Smiles.     

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 13): but I suggest you start reading something like the Economist

My suggestion is reading more than just something like The Economist in order to get a fuller picture. The Economist is notoriously anti-EU/Europe in general which they have every right to be, but it's good to read more to get some balance and see that the EU isn't as bad as some make it out to be. In essence, what I'm saying is the EU isn't all bad, and the US isn't a bed of roses. Each has its strenghts and its weaknesses.

Quoting lewis (Reply 22): Seriously? And you haven't seen something similar in the US? Here I haven't stopped saying "Duh!" since I arrived! These are the ones I remembered in the past few seconds. -Objects are closer than they appear -Warning, hot beverage (I know, that is what I ordered) -Do not go in washing machine - with appropriate drawing (why would I do that?)

Those were my thoughts as well. I see those sorts of warnings all over the place. In fact, I'm fairly certain that I've seen something similiar to the warning on the blanket seen in the UK.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 26): I am... (and yes, I am a US citizen so I can say that

  

Quoting lewis (Reply 28): No doubt, my point was that these warnings are not excessive just in Europe, they are equally if not more present in the US and Canada.

  

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 36): Still, studying or working abroad is generally a good idea. Unless you get beaten up or killed (which can happen everywhere) adding some change to your life is healthy. Hence, rutley21 should follow his dream and investigate the possibilities. Only the motivation, "the U.S. is going downhill", should be a different one.

Agreed. Thank you for saying it better than I could have  

I started my travels to Europe after I met a Norwegian exchange student during my junior year. That year I saved up money working as a telemarketer, and went to visit her in Oslo for three weeks after she returned home at the end of the year. While I was there, her parents introduced me to the idea of "backpacking" around Europe on a Eurorail pass and staying at hostels. I was hooked on the idea! I came home that year, and got a job delivering pizza for Little Caeser's during my senior year. I was making about $400 per week with tips, and as a senior in high school, I felt rich! Well, I saved my money that year, and the next summer after I graduated, I went and backpacked all over Europe for three months. It was the experience of a lifetime and I was hooked.

I returned home, kept delivering, and went back and did the same kind of trip for the next three summers in a row. It was a great experience. During my travels, I made friends and contacts that I kept in contact with, and continued to go back for for visits 2-3 times per year throughout my twenties. All financed by pizza delivery. (They call it a dead end job, but you can make good money fast if you deliver for the right store) I'm now 30, and have been over there about 16 times in the last ten years.

While I was traveling there, Berlin became a city of particular interest, where I met and stayed in contact with people. One of them owned a famous hostel in Berlin, and eventually he gave me the opportunity to come over and work for him as a bar tender for two years. I just finished up that gig last year, and am now back home in the USA

With that said, traveling and living and working in Europe are two very different things. To get a work visa, and go to live and work in the E.U., legally, is very difficult. Almost impossible unless you have a specialized skill or education, or can claim ancestral heritage. (Don't know much about going that route, but it's possible)

It's not as easy as just packing your bags and moving there and getting a job. Just as a non-U.S. citizen would find it extremely hard to just up and move to the USA and find work. At least in Germany, and some other E.U. countries, in order to get a visa, you need to have a potential employer who's willing to hire you, established. They need to prove that there are no unemployed native citizens who are eligible to do the job they want to hire you for before the government will grant you a work visa. That's where having specialized skills and education come in to play. And, at least in non-English speaking countries, you usually need to be fluent in the language to get a visa, or even just find a job. (U.K., you'd be all set in that requirement in being a native English speaker.)

In my case, my employer had a lot of connections and pulled a lot of strings to get me my work visa for Germany. In fact, it was denied twice, and I was almost deported before it was granted through a lot help, string pulling, ass kissing, and begging from my friend/employer. I don't know as much about living and working in the U.k, but being part of the E.U., I'd expect the rules are similar?

Without a visa, and being an American, you are allowed to stay in the E.U. for up to ninty days before you must leave. Although the chances of being caught and deported are slim, that's the law. Without a work visa, the only jobs you are going to find are under the table "black" jobs, probably not paying very much? Also, without a visa, things like opening a bank account, finding an apartment, getting health insurance and health care, and getting a drivers license are going to be quite difficult or impossible.

While I love Europe, and there are many things I like better than the USA, there are some things that are different and not as good. Number one, a lot of the European countries are Socialist leaning. Won't go into to much detail about this, but if you did end up legally residing in Europe, expect to pay a lot more in taxes than you do in the USA. 35-45% of you earning can and will be taken by the government to redistribute to other people and social programs, like health care. Health care itself isn't as good as the USA, and you can find yourself waiting for months just to get an appointment to see a dentist or have a non-emergency procedure done.

Gasoline is prohibitively expensive, equivalent of $5-7 per gallon, so if you're the typical American who loves to drive, that's going to be a shocker. In fact, in Europe, a lot of people don't even own cars, or if they do, they don't get them until late into their twenties or early 30's. At least in Germany, just to take drivers ed and get you're license, costs hundreds of dollars. Not as easy as taking a three days course for $100, and walking out with your license over here. Also, most of Europe, you can't drive until you're 18.

If you come from background of hunting/shooting, and supporting the right to bear arms. You can essentially kiss that away in Europe. It's possible to get hunting rifles and shotguns, but it's highly regulated, and handguns for self defense of you're home and person are almost non-existent and for the most part highly illegal.

Now for some of the positives.... If you're young, the drinking age is either 16 or 18 depending on the country. And in many countries night life is open late. Things don't shut down at 1 or 2am like the USA.

It's easy to get around. While you might not be driving, public transit is a lot more advanced and efficient than here at home. In the cities, there are extensive systems of subways, trams, and buses. And outside the city is easily accessible visa bus and train networks that are cheap, clean, and run often. It's not like here where you almost need to have a car if you don''t live in a major city.

It's more a relaxed life! While people work for a living, not everybody is a workaholic, working 60 hour weeks, and considered lucky if they get even two weeks vacation per year. A lot of Europe, there are six weeks paid vacation per year, by law. And a full time work week is often only 35-40 hours.

The communications and mobile/cell phone networks are cheaper and much more advanced than here at home.

Low fare airlines are prevalent in Europe and it's super cheap and easy to get around the entire continent.

Oh, and the woman are a lot hotter, and there's a lot less fat people! (Probably men too, if that's what you like?) People dress up more than in the USA, where the typical baseball hat, sneakers, shorts, and T-shirt is often the normally accepted attire for a night out.

So whatever happens, good luck! And if things work out, good for you! However, it's always nice the have an American Passport. If you ever got the chance to become a citizen over there, you're required to forfeit your American citizenship, so it might be a good idea to become an naturalized legal resident, but retain American citizenship?

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): I want to find somewhere that is clean, very little crime (Probably not possible).

You're going to find that is most big European cities, you're a lot safer than those in the USA. Not that there aren't dangerous areas, but it's a lot different than in a major American city. People aren't getting gunned down every day just for going down the wrong street in some street gang territory. Heck, in Berlin, single woman and old people walk around alone at all hours of the night without too much fear in being shot, or raped. The worse that happens is you get mugged and your wallet stolen!

Quoting rutley21 (Thread starter): Doe's the UK look down on people from the USA?

I find in Europe, most people generally accept American's, although there is some political differences of opinion. If you're religious, like a lot of Americans are, Europe is very secular, and Christians are often mocked and looked down upon if they are open about their beliefs.

The thing I found absurd was that when President Bush was in office, over those years it seemed like every time people found out you were American, they wanted to use you as a sounding board to vent about George Bush and all that crap. It got worse and worse over those eights years. A lot of people got really anti-mMerican, but then, literally, as soon a Obama got elected, it all ended over night! And suddenly, they liked America again! Never made sense to me, because we were still the same country!

The most common things people will look down on are the high percentage of fat Americans. As well as the fact a lot of us aren't very worldly, never leave the USA, and don't know much about the going on's in the rest of the world.

[Edited 2010-10-27 21:33:51]

[Edited 2010-10-27 22:01:35]

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 44):

I must say this is a proper description, especially the part concerning how opinionated some Germans were when Bush and his coalition started the war against Iraq. This could crack me up as well, and I didn't ike the idea to invade a country because of some invisible weapons either.

The only thing that baffles me is how long you had to wait for an appointment at a doc. I am 43 now and have basically spent all my life in Germany, including 8 years close to the hostel you mentioned, and very, very rarely it happened to me that I had to wait for an appointment this long. The only two occasions I can recall were a neurologist and an oral surgeon who both wanted to put me on a waiting list. In both cases I called around a little and got appointments within two weeks which is okay considering it wasn't anything that needed to be done immediately.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 44): you can find yourself waiting for months just to get an appointment to see a dentist

A public dentist.

What is a public dentist?
It is very much common, at least in Germany, that hospitals, dentists and other physicians accept patients who have either private or public healtcare insurance. They won't ask for your specific insurance company until you show up to meet the appointment.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 47): What is a public dentist? It is very much common, at least in Germany, that hospitals, dentists and other physicians accept patients who have either private or public healtcare insurance. They won't ask for your specific insurance company until you show up to meet the appointment.

I'm making a distinction between the public and the private sector.

PWM2TXLHopper wrote "you can find yourself waiting for months just to get an appointment to see a dentist". This is partially true, because in Europe you can get an appointment with a private dentist, without having to wait. You have to wait if you want to see a "public" dentist (public = paid by the collectivity, you won't receive a bill at the end of the appointment).

Public dentist > waiting times > no bill paid directly by you
Private dentist > no waiting time> you have to pay the bill

A lot of this is true but a lot of what you wrote does not apply to the entire continent. A lot of that doesn't apply for the UK but it was a good starting point.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 44): a lot of people don't even own cars, or if they do, they don't get them until late into their twenties or early 30's. At least in Germany, just to take drivers ed and get you're license, costs hundreds of dollars. Not as easy as taking a three days course for $100, and walking out with your license over here. Also, most of Europe, you can't drive until you're 18.

Actually, a lot of people do - in the UK alone there are 30 million cars (and for a population of 63 million, that's a high percentage!) The one good thing is that the UK driving age is 17, not 18.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 44): It's more a relaxed life! While people work for a living, not everybody is a workaholic, working 60 hour weeks, and considered lucky if they get even two weeks vacation per year. A lot of Europe, there are six weeks paid vacation per year, by law. And a full time work week is often only 35-40 hours.

A full week in the UK is 37.5 hours but we don't lead a relaxed life at all. It's quite a stressful place to live and we don't take out time for leisure at all.

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 44): Oh, and the woman are a lot hotter, and there's a lot less fat people! (Probably men too, if that's what you like?) People dress up more than in the USA, where the typical baseball hat, sneakers, shorts, and T-shirt is often the normally accepted attire for a night out.

Actually, we're catching up. Scotland is the most obese country in Europe and the rest of the UK is not far behind. We have pretty ugly women in the UK too   (of course, I'd never let my girlfriend hear that.  )

In the UK, if you want a night out now you can't just roll up in a t-shirt and jeans - they don't let you in. You need a decent shirt and shoes otherwise they have no problems telling you where to shove it.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 49): This is partially true, because in Europe you can get an appointment with a private dentist, without having to wait. You have to wait if you want to see a "public" dentist (public = paid by the collectivity, you won't receive a bill at the end of the appointment). Public dentist > waiting times > no bill paid directly by you Private dentist > no waiting time> you have to pay the bill

This distinction doesn't exist in Germany or it would be an exception from the rule. I never came across a doc who did not accept patients under the umbrella of public healt insurance. When I needed to get a root job done on a sunday morning, I showed up at a privatly held dental clinic at 7 a.m. While I, then self-employed, had private health insurance, a man with his daughter in front of me had his card issued from a public insurance company accepted. So what you said isn't so much a European but an Italian thing.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 51): This distinction doesn't exist in Germany or it would be an exception from the rule. I never came across a doc who did not accept patients under the umbrella of public healt insurance. When I needed to get a root job done on a sunday morning, I showed up at a privatly held dental clinic at 7 a.m. While I, then self-employed, had private health insurance, a man with his daughter in front of me had his card issued from a public insurance company accepted. So what you said isn't so much a European but an Italian thing.

Perhaps the difference is that in Italy, considering that every citizen is covered by the national health system, private health insurance is quite rare: therefore, if you want to avoid waiting times, you get an appointment with a private dentist and pay the bill (and I understand that in Germany the bill is covered by your private insurance, am I right?).

Coming back to my first post, I was debating the statement about waiting time: many U.S. citizens believe that in Europe you have to wait months to get an appointment with a doctor and that you can't choose the doctor.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 45): The only thing that baffles me is how long you had to wait for an appointment at a doc. I am 43 now and have basically spent all my life in Germany, including 8 years close to the hostel you mentioned, and very, very rarely it happened to me that I had to wait for an appointment this long.

I should have clarified, I wasn't specifically efering to personal experiences with health services in Germany. I never used any while I was there. I was more generalzing about countries in Europe in general. I've heard horror stories from friends who've seeked non-emergency medical attention in the U.k. Particualry when it comes to waiting lists and/or having elective procedures. I also have another friend in Norway who needed a hip replacement, and after getting on the waiting list, it took her nearly nine months before she could get in an have the surgery.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 50): Actually, a lot of people do - in the UK alone there are 30 million cars (and for a population of 63 million, that's a high percentage!) The one good thing is that the UK driving age is 17, not 18. Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 44): It's more a relaxed life! While people work for a living, not everybody is a workaholic, working 60 hour weeks, and considered lucky if they get even two weeks vacation per year. A lot of Europe, there are six weeks paid vacation per year, by law. And a full time work week is often only 35-40 hours. A full week in the UK is 37.5 hours but we don't lead a relaxed life at all. It's quite a stressful place to live and we don't take out time for leisure at all. Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 44): Oh, and the woman are a lot hotter, and there's a lot less fat people! (Probably men too, if that's what you like?) People dress up more than in the USA, where the typical baseball hat, sneakers, shorts, and T-shirt is often the normally accepted attire for a night out. Actually, we're catching up. Scotland is the most obese country in Europe and the rest of the UK is not far behind. We have pretty ugly women in the UK too (of course, I'd never let my girlfriend hear that. ) In the UK, if you want a night out now you can't just roll up in a t-shirt and jeans - they don't let you in. You need a decent shirt and shoes otherwise they have no problems telling you where to shove it.

Thanks for the clarifications! I must admit, my knowledge relating to life in the U.K. is limited only to what I've read, and from things people have told me who are either from there, or spent time there. I've traveled in 23 European countries, but for some reason the U.K. has just never interested me very much, and I've never visited. Perhaps this has to do with my opinion that the U.K. is the most similar part of Europe to the United States culture wise? Especially the New England region of the country where I'm from, and where the majority of the population is of English background. Heck, even the architecture of the buildings here is similar if you go to small country towns, or the old parts of cities like Boston. Where I live, I could even name three dozen towns that are named after those in England. We've got York, Manchester, Exeter, Hampton, Portsmouth, Yarmouth, etc.

When I started going to Europe, part of it was to go somewhere completely different than the culture of my own country. Therefore, for whatever reason, I've always just kind of avoided the U.K.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 52): Coming back to my first post, I was debating the statement about waiting time: many U.S. citizens believe that in Europe you have to wait months to get an appointment with a doctor and that you can't choose the doctor.

I think it's a misunderstanding. I know that in a lot of Europe you can see a doctor rather quickly for emergencies, or illness. But what about things like hip replacements, or elective eye surgery, cosmetic surgery, hernia operations, and other non-essential services? I've heard personal stories from friends who live in various countries over there about waiting weeks and months before they can get an appointment and a surgeon reserved at a hospital for these kind of procedures. Even Canadians who live near the U.S. border come here because the waiting times can be so long there.

Also, in Europe, is it not true that you often have to travel long distances from your home town to a hospital in a large city, for a lot of specialty procedures/surgeries? Especially if you don't live close to a major metropolitan area? Not every small and medium size town has a state of the art, world class hospital/medical facility with all the latest advances in technology just a quick drive away, like in the USA. Here, if you need major heart surgery, brain surgery, or some other major, highly specialized procedure, there's usually the facilities and specialist doctors close by that can do it, without transiting hours away to a major city.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 51): This distinction doesn't exist in Germany or it would be an exception from the rule. I never came across a doc who did not accept patients under the umbrella of public healt insurance.

I never completely understood health insurance in Germany. I had it, but never used it. It was my understanding it is required by law for your employer to provide it? Or is it that the law says you have buy it if you're employed, but the employer doesn't provide it? Something like that? When I got employed, I filled out some kind of paperwork and had to choose a plan. The price was minimal. I think about 30 Euro's per month? It was deducted out of my pay.





[Edited 2010-10-28 07:42:14]