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Zentraedi
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Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:03 am

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktl...mehserle-sentencing,0,759403.story

So, they claimed that it was "just a mistake" and that "he meant to use his taser".

To be honest that's a bit shady and I don't buy it. Still, even then, why shouldn't he be held accountable for his actions? No, 2 years is a slap on the wrist, that's not being held accountable by any measure.

What really shocks me though is that no one seems to be outraged over the most heinous part of the whole incident. The fact that the officers ran around confiscating cellphones and deleting video evidence is FAR scarier. How can that be taken so lightly?

[Edited 2010-11-05 20:13:40]
 
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seb146
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:10 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Thread starter):
The fact that the officers ran around confiscating cellphones and deleting video evidence is FAR scarier. How can that be taken so lightly?

How can transit police have so much power? I know BART officers are ordained by the state of California as full-fleged officers. They can not, nor can CHP, take away people's freedom.

Quoting Zentraedi (Thread starter):
So, they claimed that it was "just a mistake" and that "he meant to use his taser".

I don't understand why transit police are allowed to carry hand guns. Drug dealers have guns, I know, but for a bunch of drunken people, tasers should be the limit.

I do believe he ment to use his taser, but he should have to serve more time. Meantime, he is out of a job and his career choices are limited.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:43 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I don't understand why transit police are allowed to carry hand guns. Drug dealers have guns, I know, but for a bunch of drunken people, tasers should be the limit.

If they are a sworn LEO, than they should be allowed to carry a gun, just like all sworn LEOs.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I do believe he ment to use his taser, but he should have to serve more time.

I find it hard to believe that his situational awareness was that bad, that he grabbed his gun instead of his taser, but I am not him, and I do not what was going through his mind? When you train over and over and over at the firing range, it is all about muscle memory and when fight or flight kicks in, you fall back on your training; you do however, know where your gun is holstered. It seems that this guy just screwed up big time, and it cost someone their life, a career, and his freedom.

2 yrs may seem light, but it will be no picnic for this guy in the pen. He was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, and I am not surprised he did not get the max for it. I am sure they took into account his service record when it came to sentencing? A LEO is no going to get nailed for 10 yrs, unless he was drunk, high, or had proven intent, that he meant to kill the guy.

LEOs should be held to a high standard, but you also have to look at the cicumstances surrounding the event.
Stay Safe!
 
ua777222
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:18 am

As a Bay Area local, this story has been forced upon us, like it or not.

After viewing the tape thousands of times both on my own and in the news, his reaction is natural and clearly shows that he was not aware he had his gun in his hand. He is guilty for the death of Oscar Grant and most definitely guilty for being a shit cop, but it was not a racially-motivated, pre-meditated murder.

The unfortunate recourse of the trial will have long-lasting repercussions for the City of Oakland. A family member of mine works for the oldest Oakland-based company that is located where all of these riots have occurred. On days like today, staff were told not to come to work unless absolutely necessary and those that did come to work were given individual instructions on where to shelter in-place in the event that the sentence came through during business hours. This has occurred on every day there has been a trial-date/decision regarding the case.

Last month, this same company purchased new office space on the other side of the East Bay and planned to send off 5,000 employees there. The city expressed massive disappointment in the decision and played the guilt game stating that the hundreds of employees around the down-town would be forced to lay off due to the relocation. However, how can you blame the company? They lose millions in productivity closing down their international headquarters whenever they want to throw these 'rallies' and why should, for any reason, their employees feel at risk while at work?

Additionally, the rioting and looting that has occurred has only affected the residences of Oakland as it is the stores that serve Oakland residence that they looted and the public transportation for Oakland residence that they delayed/vandalized.

With the exception of the first rally (and only the 1st half), none of these have remained peaceful so the "this is just fringe groups" excuse is total bs. Tonight, 100's were arrested after protestors surrounded a police officer, took his gun off his belt, and proceeded to point the gun at the officer. Anthony Batts, an amazing fresh breath to the OPD, ordered that all OPD and mutual-aid officers refrain from showing excess force and actually recalled a police department that sent officers out with assault rifles as he stated that was not the message he wanted to send. He also coordinated with the rally organizers in advance to clear a path from City Hall to a local park where they were permitted to stay until 10PM. Walking from City Hall, they went in the opposite direction and have proceeded to vandalize homes and cars in residential neighborhoods.

I do not agree that Oscar Grant should have died on the tracks that night, but his family has only incited these actions that are only hurting the other Oscar Grant's of the city. It is a true shame.
 
ua777222
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:31 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I don't understand why transit police are allowed to carry hand guns. Drug dealers have guns, I know, but for a bunch of drunken people, tasers should be the limit.

While no New York Subway or London Underground, BART is the main form of public transportation throughout the entire Bay Area and its public citizens. Due to the size of the cities it serves, asking for assistance from those city's agencies would be taxing and not guarantee any response. Additionally, this is public access transportation without any security screening.

I would not feel comfortable traveling BART if BART Police only had tasers and relied on local law enforcement to provide enforcement. The cities of Oakland and San Francisco can't handle the issues within their own city-limits, adding BART passengers to that list would not be logical. The time it would take to report a crime to local law enforcement who would then need to talk to BART to track down the train, as its moving throughout the rail system, would take forever. By the time the reporting city got the information, the effected train is already on the other side of the bay.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:36 am

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):

After viewing the tape thousands of times both on my own and in the news, his reaction is natural and clearly shows that he was not aware he had his gun in his hand.

Awww... I feel so sorry for him. Didn't know what he was holding in his hand. Forgive me while I overflow with sympathy.

That's incompetence. Criminal negligence at the very least.
 
ua777222
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:58 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Awww... I feel so sorry for him. Didn't know what he was holding in his hand. Forgive me while I overflow with sympathy.

That's incompetence. Criminal negligence at the very least.

I don't disagree. I don't think that he should have been equipped to have both a gun or a taser. However, Oscar Grant's family has been advocating that he arrived at the scene prepared to shoot and kill Oscar Grant due to his race.

What was excluded from the trail was that BART officers were improperly trained in how to use their taser. Prior to the shooting, officers were allowed to pull their tasers with their shooting arm as well. I'm looking for a source but if I recall correctly, officers kept their tasers on the same side as their main firearms and that after this incident, the policy was changed.

He clearly was unable to act under pressure and in combination with poor training, shot Oscar. There is no excuse or sympathy for the officer, but it was not racially-motivated or pre-meditated and the actions taken by the family and their friends throughout the city of Oakland are inexcusable. Likewise, I don't know where the officer's father gets the balls to rent a boat and hang a 30ft banner stating "Free Johannes Mehserle" outside of AT&T Park during the NLDS, NLCS, and I believe the World Series (not sure as I didn't see it during Fox Sports Coverage.)

Watch the video for yourself. When he arrives, he is clearly not in control of the situation and moments before the shooting, he instructed the other officers to stand back, something he would say if he were to tase them. After the shot is fired, he looks at his fellow officers in disbelief.

There is no excuse for the officer, he was not trained properly nor did it appear that he was well suited for law-enforcement.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:23 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Thread starter):
So, they claimed that it was "just a mistake" and that "he meant to use his taser".

To be honest that's a bit shady and I don't buy it.

It's a load of bullshit. I've gone through your most basic firearms safety class, and the last thing you do before you shoot anything is to make sure you grabbed the right weapon for the job.

Quoting Zentraedi (Thread starter):
No, 2 years is a slap on the wrist, that's not being held accountable by any measure.

California has that issue with holding anyone (from OJ to this guy) accountable.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I don't understand why transit police are allowed to carry hand guns.

They're sworn LEOs, and supposedly go through the same exact training as any other sworn officer in the state.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 6):
However, Oscar Grant's family has been advocating that he arrived at the scene prepared to shoot and kill Oscar Grant due to his race.

I doubt it was race, but he was definitely way too trigger happy.

There's a condition called "Contempt of Badge", where an officer loses perceptive abilities because of the rage they feel towards someone who's not complying fully. Paradoxically, it's usually worse when the perp shows a little bit of compliance but argues and struggles only slightly. It's usually less severe when there's an all out chase.

It's psychology 101, literally.
 
ua777222
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:48 am

Another item that was withheld from the trail was that officers were alert because Oscar Grant had been previously convicted of illegal gun possession and had just been released from his 16 month sentence.

It was not determined if they knew of this conviction before he had been shot but they were led to believe that the officers were aware due to his parole/probation status and that is why he was removed from the wall and taken to the ground. Other reports state that he was resisting.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:25 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I don't understand why transit police are allowed to carry hand guns. Drug dealers have guns, I know, but for a bunch of drunken people, tasers should be the limit.

Have you ever seen who gets on BART? Trust me - you'd want them to have guns. I was fortunate to be in the same car at Civic Center station one day in 2003 with a guy bleeding from his legs and feet in a days-old hospital gown who, when asked if he was OK by other horrified passengers, proceeded to shout crazily while wielding two pairs of scissors. Fortunately BART cops arrived and subdued him at gunpoint - and rightfully so.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):

I do not agree that Oscar Grant should have died on the tracks that night, but his family has only incited these actions that are only hurting the other Oscar Grant's of the city. It is a true shame.

Couldn't agree more. Oakland's story is a long sad one, but the parents of these morons running loose causing mayhem need to get serious about the message they're sending. Loving your community means not stabbing your friends and neighbors in the back by torching and/or disrupting their businesses. Of course people are angry - but there are better avenues for expressing it. Some people just don't need an excuse   For the record, some of Grant's family are inciting extreme actions, while others have called for peace.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 6):
Likewise, I don't know where the officer's father gets the balls to rent a boat and hang a 30ft banner stating "Free Johannes Mehserle" outside of AT&T Park during the NLDS, NLCS, and I believe the World Series (not sure as I didn't see it during Fox Sports Coverage.)

What a jerkoff   Glad I didn't see that as I'd likely have thrown something at the television.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:45 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Oakland's story is a long sad one, but the parents of these morons running loose causing mayhem need to get serious about the message they're sending. Loving your community means not stabbing your friends and neighbors in the back by torching and/or disrupting their businesses. Of course people are angry - but there are better avenues for expressing it. Some people just don't need an excuse For the record, some of Grant's family are inciting extreme actions, while others have called for peace.

Sometimes savages just need a reason to act like savages, and sometimes they do not.
 
UNCRDU
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:47 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I know BART officers are ordained by the state of California as full-fleged officers. They can not, nor can CHP, take away people's freedom.

Are you sure about that? Isn't that what happens when you get arrested-you surrender your freedom?
 
Maverick623
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:41 pm

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 8):

It was not determined if they knew of this conviction before he had been shot

I'm sure they knew he had some type of conviction... he may have even told them he was indeed on probation.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 8):
Other reports state that he was resisting.

The videos are out there on YouTube. To me, it looks like he was mouthing off, the cops were yelling back, he tries to stand up, and that's when they take him to the ground.

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 11):

Are you sure about that? Isn't that what happens when you get arrested-you surrender your freedom?

He was referring to the cops trying to take cameras and phones away from the witnesses.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 6:35 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 12):
The videos are out there on YouTube. To me, it looks like he was mouthing of

Respect to the deceased and his family aside, there is no question Grant was an idiot. He had a rap sheet and he and his merry group of revelers were beating people up on public transit.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:39 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 7):
It's a load of bullshit. I've gone through your most basic firearms safety class, and the last thing you do before you shoot anything is to make sure you grabbed the right weapon for the job.

That's been bugging me as well. For his weapon to have gone off, he would have to had it locked and loaded (round in the chamber) and on 'fire.' While I'd imagine LEOs keep their weapons loaded, to carry a weapon that is on 'fire' instead of 'safe' with a round in the chamber is absurd.
 
ua777222
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:24 pm

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 14):
While I'd imagine LEOs keep their weapons loaded, to carry a weapon that is on 'fire' instead of 'safe' with a round in the chamber is absurd.

So is keeping your taser next to your gun.

They were horribly trained.
 
greasespot
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:28 pm

There is no traditional safeties on most cop guns.

Safeties are built in but for the most part draw gun. Point and pull trigger. Gun goes bang until trigger is not pulled.


Is this guy an idiot? I don't know as I nor most here do not know him I suspect. Like it or not he was convicted of what he was by a jury. Don't like it? To bad. That is how the system works.

I can't wait to see what the Feds come in and try and charge him with.




Gs
 
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par13del
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:42 am

Quoting greasespot (Reply 16):
There is no traditional safeties on most cop guns.

That is a question I was going to ask in regard to him pulling the wrong weapon.
I assumed they had safeties, and if he pulled the wrong weapon, ceratinely taking off the safety should have made him notice the gun versus the taser.

I also would like to see what disciplinary action - may have already happened did not keep up - was given to those officiers who destroyed evidence, it may sound harsh but dismissal in my book is appropriate. LEO's are held to higher standars, if they confiscate evidence and then destroy it, how can they be trusted going forward especially when they are the ones obtaining evidence to present in court?
 
engineergreg
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:46 am

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 14):
For his weapon to have gone off, he would have to had it locked and loaded (round in the chamber) and on 'fire.'
Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 14):
to carry a weapon that is on 'fire' instead of 'safe' with a round in the chamber is absurd.

That's not necessarily true. Most COPs carry Glocks, which do not have a traditional safety. Sometimes transit police carry revolvers, which again are not equipped with safeties. That being said, I firmly believe that the most important safety is using your head, not a mechanical device on the gun itself.

This was a case of gross negligence, there are simply no two ways about it. It's hard for me to feel any sympathy for this officer, even though it could be argued by some that it was just an accident.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:03 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I don't understand why transit police are allowed to carry hand guns. Drug dealers have guns, I know, but for a bunch of drunken people, tasers should be the limit.

Um have you ever watched the TV show Campus PD? ..They are every bit cops as any other cop. I guess you can argue that spring brakers are only drunks too but does not keep them from carrying guns. Look this cop was an idiot and possibly laking in training and he needs to pay a price for his actions no doubt. But transit police just like campus police need to be armed AND they also need proper training so things like this never happen again.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:39 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):

How can transit police have so much power? I know BART officers are ordained by the state of California as full-fleged officers. They can not, nor can CHP, take away people's freedom.

Apparently, they can and people don't seem to care much.

Quoting par13del (Reply 17):
I also would like to see what disciplinary action - may have already happened did not keep up - was given to those officiers who destroyed evidence, it may sound harsh but dismissal in my book is appropriate. LEO's are held to higher standars, if they confiscate evidence and then destroy it, how can they be trusted going forward especially when they are the ones obtaining evidence to present in court?

I don't know. I am actually shocked that most people shrug their shoulders at that point and are more interested in things like whether or not this was racism or simple accident. That's a bit depressing.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:02 am

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 14):
That's been bugging me as well. For his weapon to have gone off, he would have to had it locked and loaded (round in the chamber) and on 'fire.' While I'd imagine LEOs keep their weapons loaded, to carry a weapon that is on 'fire' instead of 'safe' with a round in the chamber is absurd.[/quote
[quote=par13del,reply=17]That is a question I was going to ask in regard to him pulling the wrong weapon.
I assumed they had safeties, and if he pulled the wrong weapon, ceratinely taking off the safety should have made him notice the gun versus the taser.

All LEOs have guns with a safety, it is called your finger. Any LEO that keeps his sidearm on safe, should be well versed in flipping it off, as he is drawing it.

There are several angencies that have made it mandatory to keep your Taser on the opposite side of your sidearm.
 
fridgmus
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:07 am

I would also like to see this young officer's training officer, supervisor and the rest of his chain of command held accountable. This kid was not trained properly and was not ready to work alone. Nor am I convinced this kid had what it took to be an armed Law Enforcement Officer. But that's just my opinion.

This whole incident was totally preventable.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:45 am

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 14):
While I'd imagine LEOs keep their weapons loaded, to carry a weapon that is on 'fire' instead of 'safe' with a round in the chamber is absurd.

As was sorta mentioned before, it's standard protocol in most departments.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 21):

There are several angencies that have made it mandatory to keep your Taser on the opposite side of your sidearm.

I notice a lot of cops also carry it near their ribcage. The further away from the gun, the better.

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 22):
I would also like to see this young officer's training officer, supervisor and the rest of his chain of command held accountable. This kid was not trained properly and was not ready to work alone. Nor am I convinced this kid had what it took to be an armed Law Enforcement Officer.

  

The "Swiss Cheese Model" doesn't just apply to aviation.
 
ua777222
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:02 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 24):
British Transport Police do not (most of the time) carry guns. Even on busy football weekends in London and other parts of the UK they are mostly armed with clubs and nasty dogs.

Which is to scale with a majority of your police force. Police Officers rarely carry guns in your country whereas almost all do here. I do recall your transit police or maybe it was just your police, shooting and killing someone on the subway back in like '05. Hell, most consumer banks in the States employ private security who carry firearms openly by the front door.

I believe this reflects your country's limitations on firearm ownership. Here, they are readily available. One gun store was recently connected to something like 2,500 illegal crimes.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:21 am

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 4):
While no New York Subway or London Underground

British Transport Police do not (most of the time) carry guns. Even on busy football weekends in London and other parts of the UK they are mostly armed with clubs and nasty dogs.
 
N1120A
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:09 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 2):

If they are a sworn LEO, than they should be allowed to carry a gun, just like all sworn LEOs.

I don't necessarily think all police should carry guns.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 2):

2 yrs may seem light, but it will be no picnic for this guy in the pen.

Of course it will be. He will be kept in the protective cop unit and he will do a max of 85% anyway.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 2):

LEOs should be held to a high standard, but you also have to look at the cicumstances surrounding the event.

No. They should be held to the highest standard, no matter the circumstances.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):
He is guilty for the death of Oscar Grant and most definitely guilty for being a shit cop, but it was not a racially-motivated, pre-meditated murder.

No one was saying First degree. Second degree, however, was clearly in the cards.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 6):
Watch the video for yourself. When he arrives, he is clearly not in control of the situation and moments before the shooting, he instructed the other officers to stand back, something he would say if he were to tase them. After the shot is fired, he looks at his fellow officers in disbelief.

I've watched that video tons of times. He doesn't look in disbelief. He calmly, cooly draws back his gun and re-holsters, then does nothing to try and mitigate the harm he caused. Johannes Mehrsle is a cold blooded murderer.

Quoting greasespot (Reply 16):

I can't wait to see what the Feds come in and try and charge him with.

I thought I heard they were declining to move on the civil rights end.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 25):
I do recall your transit police or maybe it was just your police, shooting and killing someone on the subway back in like '05.

That wasn't the BTP. They were Metropolitan Police, and were a special, plain clothes task force.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
I've watched that video tons of times. He doesn't look in disbelief. He calmly, cooly draws back his gun and re-holsters, then does nothing to try and mitigate the harm he caused. Johannes Mehrsle is a cold blooded murderer.

You can't glean that from watching a video shot from feet away. Ever heard of an acute stress reaction? Happens to people all the time and is responsible for immediate onset of somatoform symptoms in people who have just witnessed or participated in an action that overloads the brain.

The symptoms show great variation but typically include an initial state of "daze", with some constriction of the field of consciousness and narrowing of attention, inability to comprehend stimuli, and disorientation.

This state may be quickly followed by either further withdrawal from the surrounding situation (to the extent of a dissociative stupor), or by agitation and overeactivity, anxiety, impaired judgement, confusion, detachment, and depression. Autonomic signs of panic anxiety (tachycardia, sweating, flushing) are also commonly present.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:41 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):

I don't necessarily think all police should carry guns.

You do know that they're carried for self defense, right?

A gun is NOT something that a cop waves around for compliance. Every single one is supposed to be trained to only point it at something they are absolutely willing to destroy, although, clearly, that didn't happen here.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):

No. They should be held to the highest standard, no matter the circumstances.

I do, however, agree with this. Most people don't fully appreciate just how much power they have, and less understand that the vast majority serve honorably and to the highest standard.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):

No one was saying First degree. Second degree, however, was clearly in the cards.

You may want to research the meanings of first degree murder, second degree murder, and manslaughter in California law.

There was no premeditation here.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
I've watched that video tons of times. He doesn't look in disbelief.

You must have watched a different shooting. From two different camera angles I can see him pause while looking down, quickly look straight at another cop, and again quickly look down and back up, as if to say "What the hell just happened?".

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):

I thought I heard they were declining to move on the civil rights end.

Because they knew that they wouldn't get anywhere with it.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
Johannes Mehrsle is a cold blooded murderer.

A judge and jury thought otherwise. Hell, even Oscar's family didn't think it was premeditated.
 
N1120A
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:15 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):

A judge and jury thought otherwise. Hell, even Oscar's family didn't think it was premeditated.

It wasn't premeditated. Premeditation is required for first, not second degree murder.

As for a judge, the judge has very little to do with anything once a case is tried.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
You may want to research the meanings of first degree murder, second degree murder, and manslaughter in California law.

There was no premeditation here.

You may wish to stop providing legal opinions when you aren't a lawyer. If you are going to throw around opinions, you might want to at least know what "premeditation" means.

The murderer's act was cool and calculated. He drew his gun, which is far different in look and feel from a Taser, aimed, fired with intent. It was clear that there was, at a minimum, implied malice.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
You do know that they're carried for self defense, right?

Funny how so many other places get away without them. They aren't carried only (or even primarily) for self-defense. They are carried to exercise power and authority over others.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 28):
less understand that the vast majority serve honorably and to the highest standard.

I completely disagree. There is a minority of police who actually serve honorably and to the highest standard. The vast majority will commit serious violations of the constitutional rights of the citizens that employ them during their career.
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:45 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
The murderer's act was cool and calculated. He drew his gun, which is far different in look and feel from a Taser, aimed, fired with intent. It was clear that there was, at a minimum, implied malice.

BART and the local public disagreed. Tasers were removed from BART officers and returned once new policies were in place as there was widespread confusion between primary firearms and tasers. The idea that the public disagrees with what happened due to the rioting that occurred isn't a fair claim to make either as the crowds reached, at most 300 people, and as proven by the Chief of Police's statistics on those arrested, over 2/3 of those arrested from all of the riots combined weren't even from the area.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
Funny how so many other places get away without them. They aren't carried only (or even primarily) for self-defense. They are carried to exercise power and authority over others.


The 'other places' that get away with them are not in the United States where we decided as a country that the possession of a firearm is a constitutional right. These other places do not have gun problems like we do here.

You clearly have not been around the area's that BART serves. There is not a single day that police officers in Oakland, Hayward, Richmond, and San Francisco don't pull their guns without cause. The amount of guns that are currently on the streets in these neighborhoods warrants guns being carried by peace officers. Illegal firearms have become such an issue out here that residential police departments are starting to carry assault rifles in their cars due to the proximity of these trouble neighborhoods and support officers (even district attorney officials and coroners/CSIs carry firearms) are being met with violence while trying to do their jobs. It would be blatant negligence if they didn't.

One would be a fool to assume that the violent criminals that carry these guns and shoot them at their 'enemies' are limited to the streets as a majority of them do travel throughout the bay area on public transportation because it is cheap along with the other 350,000 daily travelers.

CHP officers had a shoot out last month on the freeway here with a right-wing nut who was on his way to San Francisco to shoot up non-profits, he was pulled over for speeding. In Richmond a few months ago three youths shot up a Sunday church service full of locals because a kid who they thought was a rival gang member was present. A Fremont police officer was gravely wounded last month while trying to arrest a guy who shot him as he walked down the street. Most notably, four Oakland police officers were killed by one man in two separate locations in two hours with an AK47 after he was pulled over for speeding.

The notion that guns are carried by police officers to hold power over others is pure bullshit. I vehemently oppose guns, and there are plenty of times that I don't like cops, but allowing these fools to shoot at those who are there to uphold the law is simply unacceptable. The accident with Oscar Grant was just that, an accident, it is not the rule and assuming such is simply irresponsible and further fuels the negative relations that our police officers currently face in our communities.

These are only the cases that received national attention--shootings are a daily occurrence within a heavily populated (with the world's richest and poorest) 40 miles of the Bay Area that encompasses areas that see 0 annual homicides with average household income above $1,000,000 and rampant murders and vast poverty within 5-10 miles of each other. This is just in the Bay Area, which I would say does not have the worst of it in the country. Talking about tighter gun control is not good enough either, California is one of the hardest states to purchase guns in.

Clean shootings far out number dirty shootings and until that statistic changes, talk of cops not carrying guns shouldn't be on the table.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26854
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:34 pm

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 30):

You clearly have not been around the area's that BART serves

Of course I have.

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 30):
There is not a single day that police officers in Oakland, Hayward, Richmond, and San Francisco don't pull their guns without cause.

So you agree with me?

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 30):
The idea that the public disagrees with what happened due to the rioting that occurred isn't a fair claim to make either as the crowds reached, at most 300 people, and as proven by the Chief of Police's statistics on those arrested, over 2/3 of those arrested from all of the riots combined weren't even from the area.

Yeah, and the police NEVER lie about numbers like that?
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:26 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Of course I have.

Then I cannot fathom how you feel that a police force without guns in appropriate.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
So you agree with me?

Slip of wording.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
Yeah, and the police NEVER lie about numbers like that?

Unless it can be proven otherwise but I don't see Oakland community leaders saying "hey wait, they were all from this city." Local leaders and political figures alike are pissed at the outsourcing that occurred with these riots. The leaders of the riots are not disputing the figures either, instead they are citing the profound effect it has had on people throughout the state, all 300.

I'd still like to hear your solution to officers not carrying guns but being held to the same expectations that they are today to protect the community and its citizens from those who feel above the law.
 
janmnastami
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:49 pm

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:16 pm

Honestly, I believe that tasers, no-knock warrants, the proliferation of guns create only problems.

I've read a lot of horror stories: Oscar Grant, the 7 years old girl killed by a flash grenade in Detroit during a no-knock raid, the history of Berwyn Heights mayor, the student tasered at Kerry forum in Florida.

Regarding this case, I believe the officer didn't want to shot, but I also don't understand the need to use a taser in that occasion.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26854
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:54 pm

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 32):

Then I cannot fathom how you feel that a police force without guns in appropriate.

Because I've lived in England.
 
UNCRDU
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:03 pm

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:26 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):

Funny how so many other places get away without them. They aren't carried only (or even primarily) for self-defense. They are carried to exercise power and authority over others.

We value our police officer's lives in America. Telling them to do their duties unarmed would almost certainly lead to a huge increase in police fatalities. Our officers absolutely need their sidearms, and much more. Locally, there was a shooting rampage at a medical facility a couple of years ago where a deranged man who OD'd in medication entere dthe building and went on a shooting spree. The man was stopped mid-spree by the only local policeman on duty that day, who entered the building and dropped the assailant with a single shot from his sidearm, despite being wounded in the process.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):
I completely disagree. There is a minority of police who actually serve honorably and to the highest standard. The vast majority will commit serious violations of the constitutional rights of the citizens that employ them during their career.

This is patently false. Our police do an excellent job each and every day keeping us safe. I wouldn't trade my local, county, and state police forces for anything in the world. And I've lived in Europe and the Middle East as well.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26854
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:31 am

Quoting UNCRDU (Reply 35):

This is patently false. Our police do an excellent job each and every day keeping us safe. I wouldn't trade my local, county, and state police forces for anything in the world. And I've lived in Europe and the Middle East as well.

Its not patently false, its a statement of opinion. And I completely disagree with you. I think some agencies, namely the CHP and not many others, do ok, but most don't impress upon their officers the meaning of "protect and serve."
 
UNCRDU
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:03 pm

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:39 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Its not patently false, its a statement of opinion. And I completely disagree with you. I think some agencies, namely the CHP and not many others, do ok, but most don't impress upon their officers the meaning of "protect and serve."

So, if someone breaks into your home in the middle of the night, you probably wouldn't call 911, right? Nor would you call them if you were involved in an accident and were still conscious/able to function?
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:23 am

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:01 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Because I've lived in England.

Which is an entirely different culture than the United States. You cannot take a cookie-cutter approach to the issue of violence in the world. That is an ignorant approach to a very serious issue that affects the lives of so many Americans on the daily basis.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Its not patently false, its a statement of opinion. And I completely disagree with you. I think some agencies, namely the CHP and not many others, do ok, but most don't impress upon their officers the meaning of "protect and serve."

You did state it as fact.

NYPD running into a burning building only to have it fall upon them. Protecting and Serving. Oakland Police Department officers running into a building without body armor after two officers are shot and ultimately killed. Protecting and Serving.

The officer in this video was shot during a traffic stop. The gang member who shot him was saved by the same officer who helped him with a bullet wound years prior after a gang shooting.

Pull your head out of the sand.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:07 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 34):
Because I've lived in England.

Works in NZ too.

If fire arms are need, special officers are called into deal with the situation. Works fine there.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4730
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:19 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):

You may wish to stop providing legal opinions when you aren't a lawyer.

And you may wish to stop providing verdicts when you're not sitting on a jury, looking at all the evidence. And you may wish to stop labeling tens of thousands of people as criminals when you've probably dealt with only a few.

And need I point out that your legal "expertise" is in employment law? A bit different than criminal law.

So, before you try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'd like to point out that Second Degree Murder does indeed require malice aforethought.

As for the rest of your rant:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):

Funny how so many other places get away without them. They aren't carried only (or even primarily) for self-defense. They are carried to exercise power and authority over others.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 29):

I completely disagree. There is a minority of police who actually serve honorably and to the highest standard. The vast majority will commit serious violations of the constitutional rights of the citizens that employ them during their career.

Time to bust out the tin foil, methinks.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):

Its not patently false, its a statement of opinion.

So you're the only one allowed to have an opinion on criminal proceedings, because you're an employment lawyer?
 
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OA412
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RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:42 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 40):

Have you attended law school and studied criminal law as all law school students (including N1120A) are required to do?
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4730
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Fmr. Officer Gets 2-Years In Deadly Bart Shooting

Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:53 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 41):

Have you attended law school and studied criminal law as all law school students (including N1120A) are required to do?

Completely irrelevant (but I'll bite. I did study criminal justice in college, but haven't gone to law school). I don't care what kind of school anyone went to; when you muck up the definition of second-degree murder that badly, it's obvious that you don't know what you're talking about.

And his other posts about how most cops are evil, power-hungry pigs just proves his bias further.

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