http://blogs.motortrend.com/rush-judgment-5957.html

Quote: So, Mr. Limbaugh; you didn’t enjoy your drive of our 2011 Car of the Year, the Chevrolet Volt? Assuming you’ve been anywhere near the biggest automotive technological breakthrough since … I don’t know, maybe the self-starter, could you even find your way to the front seat? Or are you happy attacking a car that you’ve never even seen in person? Read more: http://blogs.motortrend.com/rush-jud...dWYFB

What a putz.

I can't agree with Rush's comments, but I do think that the Volt is incredibly overhyped. It is primarily just proof that Americans can build a decent hybrid (though it isn't the first) and is a car for people who want to drive an electric car, not a car for people who want to save money. After all, who wants to spend $40000 on a Cruze? After the tax credit, the Volt starts at $32,780. Of course one can get a mid-range Cruze for $20,000, and $12000 can buy an awful lot of gasoline.

In the end, the Volt is a proof of concept testbed as much as anything. Good or bad it isn't going to be a big factor in the overall course of GM, and its primary value is in marketing and perception. If MT wants to make it their car of the year because they like the technology that's fine but they have to keep perspective of what it really is. If you want to see the car that will have a much greater effect on the success or failure of GM, go look at the Cruze. But the Volt name is definitely cooler than calling it the Hypemobile...

Rush Limbaugh is a big fat idiot.


That said, 'Motor Trend' needs to change it's name to 'Political Trend'.
It's hardly a magazine for car enthusiast. It's nothing but a political mouthpiece for the new Green lobby and attempts to sculpt public opinion.

I had no idea the Chevrolet Volt cost $40,000.00 ! ! ! !  
My goodness!
I'm sure many celebs will show up to the awards in these new Volts and perhaps a few people with disposable income will buy these to make themselves feel like 'they're making a difference'.
Economy cars should have an economy price tag.

You can buy a brand new Buick Lucerne for the same cost of this little Volt.
You can buy a 1 year old Cadillac DTS for the same cost of this little Volt.
You can buy a 4 year old Chevrolet Corvette for the same cost of this little Volt.
You can buy a 3 year old Pontiac GTO for half the price of this Volt and have enough money for a nice 1st. class vacation and pay down your mortgage. You could also use that towards two years college tuition at a state university and get an even larger tax credit.

I don't like the idea of tax credits for vehicles meant for personal use. It's ok for small businesses and farmers but not for these silly new, feel good, political statement cars.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): You can buy a brand new Buick Lucerne for the same cost of this little Volt. You can buy a 1 year old Cadillac DTS for the same cost of this little Volt. You can buy a 4 year old Chevrolet Corvette for the same cost of this little Volt. You can buy a 3 year old Pontiac GTO for half the price of this Volt and have enough money for a nice 1st. class

Yes but can you drive by the nearest gas stations and flip off the sand rats who would like to destroy us with our own money?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3): Yes but can you drive by the nearest gas stations and flip off the sand rats who would like to destroy us with our own money?

Most of the oil sold in the US comes from the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): I don't like the idea of tax credits for vehicles meant for personal use.

I don't really care for it either. I'm paying for the gas so how much I use is nobody's business but mine.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3): Yes but can you drive by the nearest gas stations and flip off the sand rats who would like to destroy us with our own money?

I'd rather keep the 12 grand.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5): I'd rather keep the 12 grand.

  
Even with the government incentive to buy this little car, it still comes out to $32,780 IF you have good credit.
$32,780 is still a lot of money for a car for a lot of people.
The Ca$h For Clunkers program took a lot of perfectly good running used cars off the market that working class people would have bought. Very few people are going to pay $32,780 ca$h for a brand new Volt.
$32,780 for a car requires financing from a bank. Not sure if banks are quick to lend in this economy. With double-digit unemployment, many people have seen their spending power and credit scores sink. So the only people that will qualify to buy one of these and get a 'tax break' from the government are those with a lot of disposable income.
Doesn't sounds so 'progressive' to me.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6): Very few people are going to pay $32,780 ca$h for a brand new Volt.

If I'm spending $32000 on a car I'm going to find something a hell of a lot better than a Volt.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6): Doesn't sounds so 'progressive' to me.

It's not. The Volt isn't going to change the world, and it isn't going to save GM. It is a pilot program, an EV1 Mk. II if you will.

[Edited 2010-11-24 00:28:37]

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7): If I'm spending $32000 on a car I'm going to find something a hell of a lot better than a Volt.

  
Same here!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7): The Volt isn't going to change the world,

SHHHHH!!!!!!!   
You're not supposed to say that.   

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7): It is a pilot program, and EV1 Mk. II if you will.

Has Political Tre.....err......Motor Trend ever given a car of the year award before it was ever sold to the public?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4): Most of the oil sold in the US comes from the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.

Canada is the US's largest foreign supplier of oil by far.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): That said, 'Motor Trend' needs to change it's name to 'Political Trend'.

   Make it about the cars, not the politics. How can the Volt be their car of the year when there are so many better cars out there?

Quoting AF340 (Reply 9): Canada is the US's largest foreign supplier of oil by far.

Thanks for the correction.
You're also one of the largest supplier of comedians to the US as well.  

Quoting AF340 (Reply 9): How can the Volt be their car of the year when there are so many better cars out there?

To sculpt public opinion and make the public believe that their tax dollars created something that lead to Motor Trends car of the year. It also supports the environmentalist agenda.

[Edited 2010-11-24 00:42:35]

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3): Yes but can you drive by the nearest gas stations and flip off the sand rats who would like to destroy us with our own money?

Quoting AF340 (Reply 9): Canada is the US's largest foreign supplier of oil by far.

I don't want to flip off the Canadians.
That would piss off Geddy Lee, Jim Carey and Celine Dion.

Is the original statement by R. Limbaugh criticizing the Volt available online? It would be interesting to read it along Motor Trend's response for a more level judgement.

That said, and as much as I hate Mr. Limbaugh, I can't help but agree that Motor Trend got a bit carried away with the Volt. It is a technical achievement, a valid technology and probably the way of the future and should be lauded as that. But as far as being the 'Car of the Year' as in the best 4 wheeled value for your buck, I really can't see how. Not at this price.

I agree that it is the pioneer of a new method of powering a car, and as such, its price will come down to more reasonable levels when the technology becomes more popular. Only until then, and only if it proves itself to be a valid, efficient and reliable technology, will it contend for the COTY title.

Many people got carried away when the first generations of hybrids came out, and while they have been relatively popular, they still only represent a barely perceptible percentage of overall car sales.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): I had no idea the Chevrolet Volt cost $40,000.00 ! ! ! ! Wow!

Could be worse. You could be living in Germany and be faced with the Volt-based Opel Ampera, which will cost 42,000 €, which currently comes out to 56,800 $.

Electric cars might have a future, but as long as they are so fvcking expensive, I'd rather go with a similar-sized unleaded/diesel car and have 10-15K for fuel.

The volt is a piece of crap, in fact it's only a hyrbid drive it on the highway and the gasoline engine will kick in...
And BMI727 is right, it is a marketing, pilot, and testing program in which Government Motors will lose the market...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): I don't like the idea of tax credits for vehicles meant for personal use. It's ok for small businesses and farmers but not for these silly new, feel good, political statement cars.

  

Lets look at some past Motor Trend Car of the Year:

1960 Chevy Corvair
1971 Chevy Vega
1975 Chevy Monza
1979 Chrysler Horizon/Omni
1981 Chrysler "K" Cars
1983 AMC Alliance
1993 Ford Probe

Time will tell tell if the Volt belongs on this list!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): That said, 'Motor Trend' needs to change it's name to 'Political Trend'. It's hardly a magazine for car enthusiast. It's nothing but a political mouthpiece for the new Green lobby and attempts to sculpt public opinion.

Stopped reading it years ago when the Editorial staff jumped on the Gore Bull warming bandwagon.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4): Most of the oil sold in the US comes from the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.

Check

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7): It's not. The Volt isn't going to change the world, and it isn't going to save GM. It is a pilot program, an EV1 Mk. II if you will.

Need to build a few more pwer plants if ew are going to all frive these pieces off trash. And how many mountains will need to be mined to make all of these batteries?

My girlfriend is a Hybrid: She operates on wine or chocolate. 

Okie

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter): What a putz.

Let's make it clear that Rush Limbaugh is far from the only critic of the Volt. He isn't even the most vocal critic.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 16): Need to build a few more pwer plants if ew are going to all frive these pieces off trash. And how many mountains will need to be mined to make all of these batteries?

  

Chevy Volt = Crap Vehicle.

The Volt is a win-win. Incredibly better looking than a Prius and Volt drivers can even stick their noses up in the air at those polluting Prius drivers.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 15): Lets look at some past Motor Trend Car of the Year:

Rumored to be heavily influenced by which car company pays the most money to the magazine for ads.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12): But as far as being the 'Car of the Year' as in the best 4 wheeled value for your buck, I really can't see how. Not at this price.

Motor trend is such a crap magazine, they're ridiculously biased and lately they've become very brainwashed by the green movement.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 12): Many people got carried away when the first generations of hybrids came out, and while they have been relatively popular, they still only represent a barely perceptible percentage of overall car sales.

Not to mention they have no advantages over diesels whatsoever.

Until proper series hybrids come out, diesels will still have the edge.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 15): 1981 Chrysler "K" Cars

WOW. If that doesn't scream bias then I don't know what does.

Its a pretty simple idea .... while we have 15 trillion dollars of debt. We don't see why the government is spending big tax dollars giving GM risky capital funding to produce something they should do on their own. If you want to make it a military project and develop it using DARPA or other funds then that is understandable. But this is a attempt to show how government can run business and it will not work ... the lefties love the idea of government products, government production and government employees. But until I see a M1A1 using electric power propulsion ... I am sticking with the Ford Edge.

If the vehicle was viable , and most of all wanted by the public ... GM should develop it and invest in the technology.. that is the way to develop good sound long term business .

Keep in mind ... the government is also spending billions putting in charging stations around the country . And they need to ...with a range of 50 miles you will be sitting allot... plugged in.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1): In the end, the Volt is a proof of concept testbed as much as anything. Good or bad it isn't going to be a big factor in the overall course of GM, and its primary value is in marketing and perception.

It worked for Toyota and the Prius. Those cars are not very green when considering production methods (I'd bet Subarus are the greenest cars built...take a tour of their factories!), but they are fuel efficient, and they are sold as green to appeal to fuel-conscious consumers.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2): will buy these to make themselves feel like 'they're making a difference'.

They will be. Just because members on this board would not spend the money does not mean it isn't worth it. I'm not going to say the Volt is going to become a classic car, but you're pretty much arguing against every person that bought a groundbreaking product. Think about all the nay-sayers when the car replaced the horse...it'll never happen right? Those automobiles are unreliable, need a hand crank, and are dangerous! Most of all, you could buy 4 horses for a car, so you'd rather keep those horses.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4): Most of the oil sold in the US comes from the Gulf of Mexico and Venezuela.

aka Hugo Chavez + BP oil spill.

This is the same phenomena that occurred in the early 2000s. Relatively cheap oil...wait a year or two when it's back to US$4/ gallon, and then goes higher. American demand is flat, but Chinese demand only has one logarithmic direction.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 23): but you're pretty much arguing against every person that bought a groundbreaking product.

The volt is hardly groundbreaking. It's a hybrid with a plug. The charge times are ridiculously long, unless you have a dedicated 240V line, which not everyone does. And I find it very interesting that the MPG is not really ever mentioned in the car's website, and the electric range is given a wide yet short number (25-50mi). I didn't find any mention of gas-only range.

[Edited 2010-11-24 09:06:49]

I'm even more charged up about the Tesla sedan than I am about the Volt. I think the Volt would have a lot of potential if it had been placed as a luxe offering. The resistance I am seeing on this thread - crap vehicle etc is not based on any driving impressions or product touch.

I wonder if the batteries are a hidden polluter - all those rare earths we need to mine or buy from China, and their recycling. Other technologies - super capacitors, mini reactors are they real or imaginary technologies?

I think in 2050 we will be buying min-reactors as disposable, plug-n-play energy cubes - no need for utilities, transmission lines or gas stations.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 23): Chinese demand only has one logarithmic direction.

Correct ,they are growing and using more and more ... and they are not bringing innovation along with their growth. American / Western growth and prosperity has come on the back of innovation, new products and advancements ... China to my knowledge is good at building the mouse trap not inventing a new mouse trap (to use a analogy). So China will compete for resources ..and there is the source of major conflict on the horizon.

It's a big deal because they are just trying to show that they didn't screw around with our money they used it to help save the environment. Rush is just a knucklehead that realizes this and wants to stir up the pot like he always does. The volt is a nice looking car. But I'd rather get a used corvette for that amount.
Blue

It doesn't matter that Canada is our biggest supplier, it is a worldwide commodity. When we buy petroleum like gluttons, it drives up price and the sand rats get rich. High demand for an increasingly difficult-to-find commodity = high price.

I'm surprised by the skeptics. We need to lose our oil appetite and most importantly out dependence on suppliers who hate us. Limbaugh is a putz for not seeing that. It dominates much of our foreign policy and and hinders us wherever we go. I don't listen to Limbaugh but as a conservative, it is mind boggling that we haven't done more to keep our independence. Just because oil is relatively cheap right now does not mean we can get complacent. I for one hate being beholden to the Chavez's, the Ahmadinjads and the Faouds of the world.

The question is, why aren't you?

I also am increasingly excited about the Leaf. It will be a game changer too. I can use a car just like it for 99% of my daily needs and it is 1/3rd the price to run at today's oil prices. Thtas not even counting the environmetal benefits, if you care about such things.

The volt is hardly groundbreaking.

Actually, it really is.

I think there's a misperception that somehow GM just decided to build a car that looks and works like a Prius. This is not the case. The transition from coupled conventional electric and gas engines which drive the car through a transmission and shafts to the situation with the Volt's drive system, which functions more like that of a diesel-electric locomotive, is quite radical compared to the technology used in a car like the Prius. The Volt has a gasoline engine, but that engine does not drive the wheels. It functions more like a generator than a car engine. The whole idea is extremely similar to the kind of locomotives turned out by GM's former Electromotive Diesel operation (GM sold EMD in 2005).

This is not a new idea - the Lohner-Porsche hybrid of the very early 20th century used a system like this, but the complexity of that idea was too difficult to make practical at that time, and since other systems in vehicles became very standard over the course of 1900-1930, the whole idea just passed out of relevance.

There are some other practical misconceptions in this thread:

1. The Volt's been in development for about five years, long before the auto bailout of last year. It has been repeatedly delayed. You can consider it the 787-8 of automobiles, honestly. Alot of tech that's not easy to wrangle into a practical, durable machine. They're only now very close to having it on the street.

2. The Cruze and the Volt share basically only a badge. You save alot of money using a platform to develop multiple vehicles - and there might be other cars on the Volt's platform, including a Cadillac and for sure equivalents from Opel/Vauxhall. But there's nothing in common there, and they were not even developed in the same country. Much of the Chevrolet Cruze was done by Opel and GM South Korea, whereas the Volt is an American idea with industrial development from GM USA, GM Europe, and GM's operation in China cooperating with SAIC.

3. Motor Trend is one of the least reliable sources out there, and the COTY award is often something that is basically bought-and-paid-for. MT has improved in the last decade from where it was in the 90's, but you still shouldn't take MT's word for it. But the Car of the Year award often goes to new cars for which few examples have yet hit the streets and in one case, to a supercar that sold only 8,000 copies worldwide (the Citroen SM, in 1971).

4. How can the Volt be their car of the year when there are so many better cars out there? Car of the year awards, and I'm not just talking about Motor Trend in particular here, are generally awarded to only brand new models and only the most significant ones are considered. With the car market in turmoil over the last two years, this year isn't the best crop of new stuff. But even so, the Volt is the only car in the group that is comprehensively new - the drive system alone makes it more significant.

the environmentalist agenda/Gore Bull Warming Global Warming - it's real. We made it. Get over it. It always boggles my mind that people understand that Human beings can create something as fantastically complex as an Airbus A380 but somehow we can't possibly come to terms with the idea that 250 years of industrial pollution may have had some effect on the environment around us. To be honest, when I hear this, I understand immediately that it is a fact-free cop-out.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 24): And I find it very interesting that the MPG is not really ever mentioned in the car's website, and the electric range is given a wide yet short number (25-50mi). I didn't find any mention of gas-only range.

The Volt has no gas-only range because it cannot run on its gas engine alone. Right now there's controversy over what is the right mpg equivalent for an electric car. The EPA still doesn't have a set standard and kWh per 100 miles is really a better measure of efficiency for electric cars anyway. Although the Volt does have a gas engine, so there you go. It's not a settled matter yet.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 15): 1960 Chevy Corvair 1971 Chevy Vega 1975 Chevy Monza 1979 Chrysler Horizon/Omni 1981 Chrysler "K" Cars 1983 AMC Alliance 1993 Ford Probe

All of the above are great cars that made an impact and brought brand new affordable transportation to the low-income.
Even after the government tax break, the $33,000.00 price tag is hardly affordable transportation and will not create enough union jobs to manufacture the vehicle.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 16): Need to build a few more pwer plants if ew are going to all frive these pieces off trash. And how many mountains will need to be mined to make all of these batteries?

We would need an existing nuclear power plant grid like in France for this car to be remotely successful.

Quoting okie (Reply 17): My girlfriend is a Hybrid: She operates on wine or chocolate.

  
Awesome!
Remember to recycle your used condoms to leave a smaller carbon foot-print.  

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 21): 1981 Chrysler "K" Cars WOW. If that doesn't scream bias then I don't know what does.

The Chrysler K-car was one of the most beautiful and fascinating vehicles ever made. It led to the gorgeous 1983-1995 Chrysler Lebaron convertibles that even I bought.   
These cheap wheels was the easiest way to get a lady to remove her panties!   

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22): But until I see a M1A1 using electric power propulsion ... I am sticking with the Ford Edge.

Go with the Ford Flex instead. At least you can get simulated wood-grain side panels.  

Quoting Greaser (Reply 23): I'm not going to say the Volt is going to become a classic car, but you're pretty much arguing against every person that bought a groundbreaking product. Think about all the nay-sayers when the car replaced the horse...it'll never happen right? Those automobiles are unreliable, need a hand crank, and are dangerous! Most of all, you could buy 4 horses for a car, so you'd rather keep those horses.

Horses need rest and the cost difference from a horse to a car was not that big. Also the car has had a longer life expectancy.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 23): aka Hugo Chavez + BP oil spill.

So now it's all Chavez's fault?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 24): It's a hybrid with a plug. The charge times are ridiculously long, unless you have a dedicated 240V line, which not everyone does.

Since 50% of the US is on coal power, wouldn't that 240V charge leave a large carbon footprint?

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 24): I find it very interesting that the MPG is not really ever mentioned in the car's website, and the electric range is given a wide yet short number (25-50mi). I didn't find any mention of gas-only range.

SHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   
You're not supposed to ask those kinds of questions!
  

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28): We need to lose our oil appetite and most importantly out dependence on suppliers who hate us.

The Canadians love us.
Also, what should we make our IV and colostomy bags out of?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28): I also am increasingly excited about the Leaf.

Unless I can smoke that leaf, I'm not interested.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 23): It worked for Toyota and the Prius. Those cars are not very green when considering production methods (I'd bet Subarus are the greenest cars built...take a tour of their factories!), but they are fuel efficient, and they are sold as green to appeal to fuel-conscious consumers.

I didn't buy mine because it was green. I bought it because, with my 50 mile commute, it's almost paid for itself over a normal four-door sedan in one year.

There is another advantage to having an electric motor in your car: when I step on the gas, the response is instantaneous. When I step on the gas in a normal car, there's a marked delay.

Quoting comorin (Reply 25): I'm even more charged up about the Tesla sedan than I am about the Volt. I think the Volt would have a lot of potential if it had been placed as a luxe offering.

Actually, it is. One of the reasons it's so expensive is because it basically comes loaded with all options except a rear-view camera and a fancy trim package. That camera is only $500 extra. However, the Volt has standard features including access to a smartphone app that allows you to turn the car on remotely and adjust the heat, etc. It has Bose speakers, etc.

The big thing they're missing from this car is a VSP (Vehicle Sound for Pedestrians) system, like the new Nissan Leaf. This projects an artificial tone that changes with the vehicle's speed. Sounds pretty cool, actually. The point is that it's supposed to let you know the car is there so that the blind, kids, bikers, etc. have aural warning of the approach of the otherwise silent vehicle.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): There is another advantage to having an electric motor in your car: when I step on the gas, the response is instantaneous. When I step on the gas in a normal car, there's a marked delay.

You should buy a car with a 4bbl. carburetor.
No delay what so ever.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): The big thing they're missing from this car is a VSP (Vehicle Sound for Pedestrians) system, like the new Nissan Leaf. This projects an artificial tone that changes with the vehicle's speed. Sounds pretty cool, actually. The point is that it's supposed to let you know the car is there so that the blind, kids, bikers, etc. have aural warning of the approach of the otherwise silent vehicle.

...does that car come with a vinyl roof, Corinthian leather, 24oz. thick cut pile carpet and wood-grain side panels?
I doubt it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31): All of the above are great cars that made an impact and brought brand new affordable transportation to the low-income.

If you think the Vega was a "great car" I feel for you. I bought a new 1972 Vega. By the time it had 30,000 miles it was burning a quart of oil ever 80 miles. Great car?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31): Since 50% of the US is on coal power, wouldn't that 240V charge leave a large carbon footprint?

It's 44% and shrinking. Natural gas is on the rise. Not only MUCH cleaner to burn, we have at least an 80 year supply - within our own borders. Even still, producing electricity at the dirtiest of dirty coal plants is still cleaner than individual ICE's, even against the best diesel motors (that we don't get) although that's getting close.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31): The Canadians love us.

Right, sure they do. Anyway, that is a microscopic view. How many billions are we spending every month protecting oil interests for ourselves and our allies around the world?

For instance, look at South Koreas suppliers: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/South_Korea/Oil.html

Japan: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Japan/Oil.html

You can check out all the Euro countries there too. If any of those get choked for whatever reason or whim, you all know it puts IMMEDIATE pressure on the prices you and I pay to get to work. I'm sick of that. Why aren't all you skeptics?

[Edited 2010-11-24 10:51:59]

Quoting windy95 (Reply 16): Need to build a few more pwer plants if ew are going to all frive these pieces off trash. And how many mountains will need to be mined to make all of these batteries?

Uh oh - not supposed to say that either! I recall asking Toyota's environmental director a couple years back "when everyone's driving hybrids, what's going to happen to Chinese leverage in trade markets over rare minerals used in batteries?" Silence.

Horses need rest and the cost difference from a horse to a car was not that big. Also the car has had a longer life expectancy.

Neither of these thing is true.

When cars were new, they were purely the province of people with wealth. It wasn't until the 1920s that cars became popularly affordable for ordinary people - although the Model T and the original Dodge Brothers Model 18 had made a big impact in this direction during the teens.

But the Automobile is a fundamentally 19th century machine, and from 1886 to 1910, it was VERY rare for an ordinary person to be able to afford a car. Most of the Edwardian-era cars were also huge, opulent machines meant for the wealthy. Horses, by contrast, were cheap back then - because the transportation infrastructure favored Horses until the balance tipped in the three or four years following the 1907 global recession.

Cars also weren't very durable back then. You probably wouldn't take your car to the dealer for a de-coking these days, but back then such things were commonplace, as were all sorts mechanical maladies. The individual parts of cars were actually very strong back then - mostly because they had to be big and heavy because of metallurigical techniques - but they weren't well designed.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31): At least you can get simulated wood-grain side panels

I like the flex but my girl didn't .... The Edge is a damn nice vehicle no regret now. I saw a all blacked out Flex the other day ... all flat black trim with black rims and slight green tips . The thing looked awesome ... especially at night. I don't know why I like the style ...but I do. I also like the tuxedo style with the white top and black lower body...

Quoting 474218 (Reply 34): If you think the Vega was a "great car" I feel for you. I bought a new 1972 Vega. By the time it had 30,000 miles it was burning a quart of oil ever 80 miles. Great car?

Yep.
It was one of the first mass-produced aluminum block engines made which is the norm today.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35): It's 44% and shrinking. Natural gas is on the rise. Not only MUCH cleaner to burn, we have at least an 80 year supply - within our own borders. Even still, producing electricity at the dirtiest of dirty coal plants is still cleaner than individual ICE's, even against the best diesel motors (that we don't get) although that's getting close.

Great!

Quoting mham001 (Reply 35): How many billions are we spending every month protecting oil interests for ourselves and our allies around the world?

That is because our allies are too weak to defend themselves?

Interesting article just surfaced on Yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/...ologiesnotsafefordriversexpertssay

[Edited 2010-11-24 11:16:25]

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 38): I like the flex but my girl didn't

Ugh. I rented one once (well, it was a "free" upgrade, as in "we don't have any compact cars, Dr. G, but here's a free upgrade to a Ford Flex"). I went back to the rental company the next day. That thing was like driving a 747 around the tarmac. Except when you push the throttles on a 744, you get a faster response time than I got with the Flex.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31): These cheap wheels was the easiest way to get a lady to remove her panties!

IF you can get them to work   

Quoting Greaser (Reply 23): It worked for Toyota and the Prius.

The Volt is just not going to have a huge effect on the bottom line of GM good or bad. I think that they are looking at a production of around 10,000 for a $40,000 compact car. Compare that with Toyota selling around 140,000 copies of the Prius in 2009. The Volt is a halo model and a pilot program pure and simple.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 16): Need to build a few more pwer plants if ew are going to all frive these pieces off trash.

I think someone calculated how much extra one should budget on their power bill to charge their car, but I can't find it. Not to mention that the charging apparatus isn't free and might require modifications to one's home, though I think another tax credit will partially offset that.

Quoting Greaser (Reply 23): I'm not going to say the Volt is going to become a classic car, but you're pretty much arguing against every person that bought a groundbreaking product.

This isn't a groundbreaking product. This isn't the first hybrid. This isn't even GM's first hybrid, though none of the previous ones have been that popular or well known. The most remarkable thing about the Volt is that it was made by GM and is trying to be some sort of symbolic leader in the return of the American car industry.

Quoting comorin (Reply 25): I think the Volt would have a lot of potential if it had been placed as a luxe offering.

Well, it's already priced like one.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 28): We need to lose our oil appetite and most importantly out dependence on suppliers who hate us.

Not now we don't. Eventually oil prices will creep up to the point where paying $40,000 for a compact car might almost make sense, but that isn't now.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 29): The transition from coupled conventional electric and gas engines which drive the car through a transmission and shafts to the situation with the Volt's drive system, which functions more like that of a diesel-electric locomotive, is quite radical compared to the technology used in a car like the Prius.

Ferdinand Porsche did it in 1905 not to mention locomotives for half a century or so, so the whole revolutionary thing is a little off.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 29): 2. The Cruze and the Volt share basically only a badge.

If I walk into a Chevy dealer looking for a compact car, I'm going to look at the Cruze and a Volt. And then I'll see the price of the Volt and only look at the Cruze.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 29): the drive system alone makes it more significant

Can I win a Car of The Year Award if I make a modern day Stanley Steamer?

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 29): We made it. Get over it. It always boggles my mind that people understand that Human beings can create something as fantastically complex as an Airbus A380 but somehow we can't possibly come to terms with the idea that 250 years of industrial pollution may have had some effect on the environment around us.

I don't particularly believe or not believe in it. I just don't care.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 31): Since 50% of the US is on coal power, wouldn't that 240V charge leave a large carbon footprint?

Yes. The enviro-clowns seem to always overlook the fact that the electricity you use is only as green as the method used to generate it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39): It was one of the first mass-produced aluminum block engines made which is the norm today

Except unlike the aluminum block engines of today, the Vega did not have steel sleeves? Typical will engineered General Motors design.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36): Uh oh - not supposed to say that either! I recall asking Toyota's environmental director a couple years back "when everyone's driving hybrids, what's going to happen to Chinese leverage in trade markets over rare minerals used in batteries?" Silence.

In today's news....

The study shows that the electric car's Li-ion battery drive is in fact only a moderate environmental burden. At most only 15 per cent of the total burden can be ascribed to the battery (including its manufacture, maintenance and disposal). Half of this figure, that is about 7.5 per cent of the total environmental burden, occurs during the refining and manufacture of the battery's raw materials, copper and aluminium. The production of the lithium, in the other hand, is responsible for only 2.3 per cent of the total. "Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries are not as bad as previously assumed," according to Dominic Notter, coauthor of the study which has just been published in the scientific journal "Environmental Science & Technology."

The conclusion drawn by the Empa team: a petrol-engined car must consume between three and four liters per 100 kilometers (or about 70 mpg) in order to be as environmentally friendly as the e-car studied, powered with Li-ion batteries and charged with a typical European electricity mix.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100830120945.htm

The Volt is just not going to have a huge effect on the bottom line of GM good or bad. I think that they are looking at a production of around 10,000 for a $40,000 compact car. Compare that with Toyota selling around 140,000 copies of the Prius in 2009. The Volt is a halo model and a pilot program pure and simple.

In the beginning of the Prius program, Toyota was selling far, far fewer of them at a MUCH higher unit cost. It takes awhile for people to adopt things like the Prius. At the time Honda offered a more basic vehicle in competition - the original Insight. People resisted that car because of it's high price and limited practicality. The Prius, however, caught on quite quickly - particularly in it's refined second generation. You can't expect something totally new playing in a market not previously covered by the manufacturer to be selling a huge number right away. Just look at the Japanese full-size pickups...

This isn't a groundbreaking product. This isn't the first hybrid. This isn't even GM's first hybrid, though none of the previous ones have been that popular or well known. The most remarkable thing about the Volt is that it was made by GM and is trying to be some sort of symbolic leader in the return of the American car industry.

Again, it kind of is a groundbreaking product because it functions in a fundamentally different way than previous hybrids. It is also a totally new, and very flexible platform - though that aspect of it is not so groundbreaking.

Ferdinand Porsche did it in 1905 not to mention locomotives for half a century or so, so the whole revolutionary thing is a little off.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the Lohner-Porsche hybrid did it first - but it wasn't practical, and it certainly wasn't commercially viable. And it hasn't been done since. So in many regards, GM is putting out something that none of today's drivers, and in fact 99.9% of the drivers who were around during the Lohner-Porsche's time, have never seen or experienced. It really is a very different approach.

As for who popularized those diesel-electric locomotives, look no further than...General Motors. Who combined Electromotive Diesel out of Electro-Motive and Winton Engine in 1930.

Can I win a Car of The Year Award if I make a modern day Stanley Steamer?

Yes.

If you can manufacture a practical steam car at the price of the Chevrolet Volt, then yes - you could theoretically win awards for it. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure why steam technology has not been pursued as an alternative to complex battery tech. Steam requires heat - there are ways to generate that heat today that are much more efficient than the last steam cars, the Stanley and the Doble way back in the 1920s.

But more to the point, the Volt is not a carbon copy of the Lohner-Porsche. Such systems today would seem agricultural compared to what's in the Volt. The idea is there, yes, but you shouldn't interpret this to mean that nothing new has been accomplished here. Taking a truly alterantive propulsion system and making it into a practical road car that isn't a $110,000 toy is for the car world as big an accomplishment as the 787 and A350 will be for the airplane world.

If I walk into a Chevy dealer looking for a compact car, I'm going to look at the Cruze and a Volt. And then I'll see the price of the Volt and only look at the Cruze.

Not many people will be cross-shopping these two cars, and having been in both, there's a big difference between them. Similarly, how many people cross-shop a Toyota Yaris and a Toyota Prius? I'm guessing not many. If you want a cheaper car, go for it. But you're not only paying for basic transportation by buying a Volt, nor for a Prius.

There is far, far less in common between the Cruze and the Volt than there is between say, the VW Golf and the Audi A3. And you'll pay ALOT more for an A3.

I just don't care/enviro-clowns

So obviously on some level you do care. If you're going to be calling people clowns, then you obviously care about what they are doing, for good or ill.

It might surprise you to learn that in my opinion, a clean 1978 Chevy Malibu would be better for the environment than a new Prius - but that's because I understand that the waste and pollution generated in making that new Prius is greater than that which the average driver will generate using that old Malibu. And I think we should be looking at reducing impact in ways other than just buying something to make ourselves feel better.

But that doesn't mean that our environmental problems aren't very real or that we shouldn't care about them.

[Edited 2010-11-24 12:14:48]

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43): Not now we don't. Eventually oil prices will creep up to the point where paying $40,000 for a compact car might almost make sense, but that isn't now.

It can't happen too soon. An interesting study would be to take the costs of keeping the Persian Gulf et al open and using those billion$ to buy every American an electric car, or a Volt for those who need more range.

It's also worth noting that we are in a point of rapid change for EV's. Some approaches to Electrics and hybrids are good, others are not so good.

I remember being at the media launch for the Mitsubishi iMiEV, the first electric car I ever actually believed might really be practical for ordinary people. It still has great range for what it is, although it still isn't widely available (and never will be in the US) and the program hasn't been full developed. But this little car is a very good vehicle if you live in a place like northern Belgium, where you don't have to drive too far to get where you want to go and which has a friendly attitude tax-wise to EV's. The iMiEV has decent range for an electric - maybe 125 miles on a charge. But it charges REALLY quickly - and that's key.

On the other side, there's the example of the Coda. This little US-market-intended sedan is made by a California company that is run by some former investment bankers. It is basically an older Mitsubishi platform with a fully electric powertrain. My first description of it to somebody else was "It can do everything a Hyundai Elantra can do at twice the price. And oh yeah, you can only drive it 100 miles at a time every six hours."

In reality, the Coda is closer to doing everything a 2006 Hyundai Elantra can do at eight times the price.

Right now there's alot of development and alot of bandwagoning going on. And sometimes it's hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. I also think that environmentalist journalism needs to be more realistic in it's coverage of these developments. The Coda is not a good car. It will never succeed at replacing Corollas, Elantras, and Cruzes in American's driveways. It just won't. And being green isn't enough to make it good.

Contrast this with the vastly more practical Volt, which costs about the same as the Coda, or the iMiEV, which is much cheaper in the markets where it is currently available than the Coda will be here.

[Edited 2010-11-24 12:35:55]

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45): In today's news.... The study shows that the electric car's Li-ion battery drive is in fact only a moderate environmental burden. At most only 15 per cent of the total burden can be ascribed to the battery (including its manufacture, maintenance and disposal). Half of this figure, that is about 7.5 per cent of the total environmental burden, occurs during the refining and manufacture of the battery's raw materials, copper and aluminium. The production of the lithium, in the other hand, is responsible for only 2.3 per cent of the total. "Lithium-ion rechargeable batteries are not as bad as previously assumed," according to Dominic Notter, coauthor of the study which has just been published in the scientific journal "Environmental Science & Technology." The conclusion drawn by the Empa team: a petrol-engined car must consume between three and four liters per 100 kilometers (or about 70 mpg) in order to be as environmentally friendly as the e-car studied, powered with Li-ion batteries and charged with a typical European electricity mix.

Not the point though - what is the impact on mineral resources and resultant trade war when 12.5 million of these things are being produced per year?