"The latest results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) released Tuesday by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) show Asian students – particularly those from China, who participated in the exam for the first time in 2009 – at the top of the pack, with the United States generally in the middle or, in math, toward the bottom."

So the U.S. education system continues to perform below standards relative to our economic/social development. These results are an embarrassment.

While I still believe that a top-flight U.S. education is more than competitive with those of the other OECD countries, the average is clearly not. It is notable, though, to consider the "melting-pot" effect on our overall education system...


"Some experts caution that comparing countries with vastly different populations is frought with complexities, and that the rankings aren’t as straightforward as they might seem. In the US, for instance, about 20 percent of students are non-native English speakers, notes Clifford Adelman, a senior associate with the Institute for Higher Education Policy. In Korea, virtually all students are native speakers of Korean, the language in which they take the test.

“We’ve got a very motley crew here as a nation of of immigrants,” says Mr. Adelman. “That’s not an excuse, but we ought to be comparing apples to apples.”"

I can imagine how unity of thought, process, and culture would be a boon to achieving high average marks in objective assessments. So, is the U.S. inherently unable to compete in certain realms of overall averages? Or is it possible, through reform and a stronger emphasis on improvement for the underperformers, to compete with countries that are smaller and/or not so immigration focused? At this point, I am tempted to lean towards the former. Opinions?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Educati...ll-but-still-lag-in-global-testing

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter): "Some experts caution that comparing countries with vastly different populations is frought with complexities, and that the rankings aren’t as straightforward as they might seem. In the US, for instance, about 20 percent of students are non-native English speakers, notes Clifford Adelman, a senior associate with the Institute for Higher Education Policy. In Korea, virtually all students are native speakers of Korean, the language in which they take the test. “We’ve got a very motley crew here as a nation of of immigrants,” says Mr. Adelman. “That’s not an excuse, but we ought to be comparing apples to apples.”"

What a BS self-fulfilling argument..

There are so many things wrong with education in America......and most here think the solution is throw more money into the already well funded system...

I don't think we should fall back on our diversity as the major factor in our under-performing youth. Our education IS screwed up in so many ways. Like incompetent, overly-protected teachers, for instance...

Let's see here...

Televison shows like American Idol, Lost, Big Brother and that sort ; Telephones stuck in every ear ; tatoos and other body mutilations rampant. I never would have guessed that people are stupid.   

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter): I can imagine how unity of thought, process, and culture would be a boon to achieving high average marks in objective assessments. So, is the U.S. inherently unable to compete in certain realms of overall averages? Or is it possible, through reform and a stronger emphasis on improvement for the underperformers, to compete with countries that are smaller and/or not so immigration focused? At this point, I am tempted to lean towards the former. Opinions?

Having a more heterogeneous population vs. South Korea or other high performing nations is certainly a problem. But I think a larger problem is how our educational system(s) are structured. We don't have a centralized national curriculum and standards. Basically every state has its own say in how curricula are developed and this process can become heavily politicized -- just look at the recent battle in Texas over their revised social studies curriculum.

Furthermore I think we are still a somewhat anti-intellectual society. We do not value being learned and it is tough for kids when they see all of that coming out of the media and now from our elected officials ridiculing others for being intellectuals. As a result I think we set our sets way too low. A student can leave high school without ever taking an algebra course for example. You can't get into a college without having algebra and many vocational and technical certificates and degrees really require more advanced math as well.

i think if we had higher expectations on what a k-12 education entails, what being an educated American means we could really make some changes in our educational outcomes, but before that happens I don't expect much change.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 3): Televison shows like American Idol, Lost, Big Brother and that sort ; Telephones stuck in every ear ; tatoos and other body mutilations rampant. I never would have guessed that people are stupid.

   Seriously - not to mention misplaced priorities. I know why I never did well in math (straight-C's) - nobody could make me interested. The first math class I had an 'A' in was applied statistics when I was a freshman in college. When I was 15, I could tell you the batting average, OBPS, ERA, yards per carry, etc. of just about every player on every baseball and football team I liked. The textbooks we were taught from were dry as fall leaves.

I honestly feel I was part of the last generation (1980s) of kids properly educated. Every kid I've met born in the late 90's and after seems extremely lacking of any sort of culture whatsoever and most are extremely narrow-minded and dull. Of course this is painting with a very wide brush.

However I'm not sure the education system is to blame fully. I think the parents have a lot to do with it. For one just look at how kids nowadays are free to throw temper tantrums in public and do as they please, like never before. And if you so much as give them a slight slap on the wrist all of a sudden you're labeled as a child abuser and get thrown in jail.   

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4): Furthermore I think we are still a somewhat anti-intellectual society. We do not value being learned and it is tough for kids when they see all of that coming out of the media and now from our elected officials ridiculing others for being intellectuals. As a result I think we set our sets way too low.

Truer words have never been spoken. It's all about consumerism, perceived (rather than actual) social status and material upmanship these days  


[Edited 2010-12-07 11:24:58]

[Edited 2010-12-07 11:25:48]

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter): It is notable, though, to consider the "melting-pot" effect on our overall education system...

What a hideously racist comment.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4): Furthermore I think we are still a somewhat anti-intellectual society. We do not value being learned and it is tough for kids when they see all of that coming out of the media and now from our elected officials ridiculing others for being intellectuals. As a result I think we set our sets way too low.

Great point. I've even heard plenty of arguments about Obama being an "intellectual snob"...as if it's a bad thing for our president to be intelligent and well-educated.

There are far too many Americans kids that are worried primarily with being cool, or being like a particular celebrity, instead of being successful and making something of themselves. It's embarrassing when I'm abroad or talking to students from China or Singapore and they're shocked that I know the first thing about their country. I used to feel insulted by this, but the more I learn about our society's differences the more I can see where they're coming from.

Here at Vanderbilt, despite it being extremely competitive academically, kids typically are extremely reticent to discuss anything worldly or important outside of class. Instead, they'd rather devote their considerable intellect to forming arguments for the legalization of weed or who the superior fantasy football quarterback is. In our school paper, controversial international issue articles receive little to no attention, while a recent op-ed against the legalization of weed garnered some 10,000 views and hundreds of angry responses within just a couple of days. I'm all for a healthy balance of leisure and work, but for god's sake, being ignorant about the rest of the world and hugely knowledgeable about the statistical history of baseball is not cool.

Similarly, Americans in general seem extremely reticent to accept the fact that we can lose at things, and that we have to change/adapt if we want to continue to enjoy the benefits afforded to us by our historically unique position in the world. We're an extremely competitive country at our heart, but I think that we're proving ourselves to be incredibly slow in realizing that we're not just competing amongst ourselves, but with the rest of the world as well.

end rant, for now...

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter): "Some experts caution that comparing countries with vastly different populations is frought with complexities, and that the rankings aren’t as straightforward as they might seem. In the US, for instance, about 20 percent of students are non-native English speakers, notes Clifford Adelman, a senior associate with the Institute for Higher Education Policy. In Korea, virtually all students are native speakers of Korean, the language in which they take the test. “We’ve got a very motley crew here as a nation of of immigrants,” says Mr. Adelman. “That’s not an excuse, but we ought to be comparing apples to apples.”"

So how did Canada rank higher than the US then?

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 8): There are far too many Americans kids that are worried primarily with being cool, or being like a particular celebrity, instead of being successful and making something of themselves. It's embarrassing when I'm abroad or talking to students from China or Singapore and they're shocked that I know the first thing about their country. I used to feel insulted by this, but the more I learn about our society's differences the more I can see where they're coming from. Here at Vanderbilt, despite it being extremely competitive academically, kids typically are extremely reticent to discuss anything worldly or important outside of class. Instead, they'd rather devote their considerable intellect to forming arguments for the legalization of weed or who the superior fantasy football quarterback is. In our school paper, controversial international issue articles receive little to no attention, while a recent op-ed against the legalization of weed garnered some 10,000 views and hundreds of angry responses within just a couple of days. I'm all for a healthy balance of leisure and work, but for god's sake, being ignorant about the rest of the world and hugely knowledgeable about the statistical history of baseball is not cool. Similarly, Americans in general seem extremely reticent to accept the fact that we can lose at things, and that we have to change/adapt if we want to continue to enjoy the benefits afforded to us by our historically unique position in the world. We're an extremely competitive country at our heart, but I think that we're proving ourselves to be incredibly slow in realizing that we're not just competing amongst ourselves, but with the rest of the world as well. end rant, for now...

Agreed 100000%. As an American that has lived in two different countries, I can't say I blame foreigners on the poor image they have of us. I don't like to stereotype but unfortunately the "stupid arrogant ignorant American" image the rest of the world has of us sadly has a lot of truth to it.

How exactly would you correct this though, is a tough question. The most worldly and cultured Americans I know are like that because they chose to be that way, you can't really force feed people to be cultured or worldly. They had the drive and curiosity to see the world beyond the US borders.

On the other hand, there's lots of otherwise bright people that couldn't name the 7 continents if they're life depended on it. They just don't give a damn of what is beyond the tip of their nose.

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter): particularly those from China, who participated in the exam for the first time in 2009

I wouldn't beat up on American kids too much.. or Australian or Canadian etc
The Pisa testing in my country was spread over many hundreds of schools around the whole country. I am assuming this is the case in most countries.. it was NOT the case in China where the testing was done in Shanghai, Hong Kong & Macau.
The results could look pretty stellar for anyone if they were to pick the most perfect locations.

There are rules and protocols involved with PISA but China , never much for the rules at any time, certainly don't ever consider that OECD programs are anything more than a way to push their agenda!

What's New Zeland doing right compared to Australia?  

And, I know that anet is now us based, but why the beating up on the US over this testing? The UK was just as bad or worse, although both were significantly worse than other English speaking countries, which were generally worse than Western European countries.....

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1): and most here think the solution is throw more money into the already well funded system...

The federal and state DOEs are just bloated bureaucracies. I'd be willing to bet upwards of 60% of the funding goes towards administrative salaries.

Another problem most people don't realize is that Texas controls what gets taught in a classroom. Every single textbook, from science to math to English, is written according to their standards.

Quoting deltaownsall (Thread starter): “We’ve got a very motley crew here as a nation of of immigrants,” says Mr. Adelman. “That’s not an excuse, but we ought to be comparing apples to apples.”"

Un-friggen-believable. Every single country in western Europe speaks a different language, and I have not met one (outside of France) that can't speak English as well as, or better than, an American. This goes doubly so for Finland.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 12): What's New Zeland doing right compared to Australia?

Not much in reality!! But yes they did score a bit better!

Having put some more time into looking at the actual results, I am not only going to reafirm my accusation about China but expand on it. I would think based on the results that China did not only cherry pick the regions tested but hand picked the schools and students tested.

I think the original statement about comparing apples with apples is valid. If (and it's a big if IMHO) you want to make comaprisons for the US then against Canada, UK, Australia, Israel, New Zealand would negate the 'melting pot' effect.

I am dubious about these studies. While I would not say they cheat, certain countries certainly 'game' the system by not randomly selcting the participants as they are supposed to.

Please note that the US is not the only country lumbered with teachers and their unions.

I do agree with others that there is an increasing lack of academic rigour in the US and this extends to Universities as well.

Anecdotal story - good friend of mine with a Phd in Electrical Engineering went to the US many years ago to work for a well known research company. This place was a real egg-head paradise and over the years he moved into management. During his 5 years in management he was involved in hiring and recruitment, the comapany employing a total of 198 Phd and 303 lesser degreed researchers during that time. Of them a grand total of 2 were americans, despite bending over and grasping their ankles to find them the candidates simply didn't exist. The US talent all getting law degrees or MBA's perhaps.

Quoting pacificjourney (Reply 15): Please note that the US is not the only country lumbered with teachers and their unions.

Now, where's that head nodding smilie   Both Oz and NZ have very strong teaching unions, yet were the better performing English speaking nations - NZ slightly better than Oz.

The UK has strong teacher unions as well - but maybe its performance as bad as or worse than the US supports the argument....  

Quoting stealthz (Reply 11): There are rules and protocols involved with PISA but China , never much for the rules at any time, certainly don't ever consider that OECD programs are anything more than a way to push their agenda!

You're right, there is a huge difference between testing only kids from specific, higher-income regions of the country that naturally attract the best and the brightest, and testing the entire country. Certainly China's overall education system has a very long way to go, but the article makes note of this stipulation. China's results notwithstanding, the US still performs abysmally though.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 13): Un-friggen-believable. Every single country in western Europe speaks a different language, and I have not met one (outside of France) that can't speak English as well as, or better than, an American. This goes doubly so for Finland.

Ah, I wouldn't go quite that far, but I think I see your point. America does have a very different mix of immigrants, though. I'm not sure whether I would put more blame on the growing trend of non-assimilation by some immigrants, or the education system itself, but both are factors and neither should be ignored. I do believe that, for any number of reasons (economic, social, cultural, efficiency, etc.), a generally accepted single language is important for a country's success. I don't really see it as a positive if you have a large inflow of immigrants that wish to live in a country solely for their personal economic gain, and not because they respect or wish to be a member of that country's society.

Student performance in the US is pretty much proportional to income distribution in my opinion. Those that work the hardest and get the most out their education will end up in that top few percent, the ones that don't even bother will be at the bottom, and there is a very wide middle. I don't think that because EVERY student doesn't strive for the best in their education there is anything inherently wrong with the system. Are there problems that could stand to be fixed? Absolutely, but in the end the student has to be the one motivated and wherever they get out of school they get because they worked at it. I was fortunate to go to one of the better performing high schools in my area, and I was just barely in the top half of my 380 person graduating class. It wasn't that I was a bad student, but there were so many people in AP classes with 5.0+ GPAs (we had a werid scale) and I didn't need to bother with any of that stuff cause I was going into music and I put more focus into my playing than schoolwork. I hate to say I kind of just got by, but that's how it is for a lot of people who are perfectly smart and capable but have little to no desire to pursue careers that require those kinds of grades. Everyone has a different idea for what they want out of their education and if they want to be the best they'll find a way to do it, but then you get into standardized testing (an area I fortunately never had any real difficulty in) where the government decides that those expectations people set for themelves aren't important and have to compare you to everyone else. Kids in countries like China don't necessarily get the luxury to choose where they want to go in their lives and living up to the expectations set by much stricter family environments plays into them getting higher scores. Being the top isn't necessarily a good thing in my eyes (as evidented by my chinese theory professor who is the primary reason I am no longer a music major) and I don't think being down the list is that detrimental to the future of the country because even if the average is lower, that doesn't mean there isn't enough people in the top who will step up to running the country in the future.
The biggest issue I see here, like with most political issues, is the far left and far right shouting at each other when the rest of us wish they'd do something more constructive with their time. The left is crying because they think the right has this "war on intellect" while the right think anyone who values education is a snobby elitist. The people in the middle just care about what's best for themselves as individuals and not as a collective to be shown off to China.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7): What a hideously racist comment.

Ouch. The melting-pot experiment is far deeper and more complex than skin color.

[Edited 2010-12-07 15:50:25]

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 12): What's New Zeland doing right compared to Australia?

What age are these surveys conducted around? Sounds pretty subjective to me.. The 'external' examination system in New Zealand is pretty bad.. You can get 'credits' for picking up rubbish if the school is that way inclined. It'd be very hard to compare countries like this. There are a lot of schools which opposed the New Zealand external qualification and headed straight for IB or Cambridge International Exams.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 20): What age are these surveys conducted around?

15 Year olds, based on the premise that 15 is the age most countries end compulsory education.
The tests were very standardised around the world and the selection process was supposed to be as well, being part of the program in Australia I know how it was run here but not all countries played the game fairly.
The tests had little to do with the school curriculum in any given place it is more a test of what they know rather than what any particular schools system teaches.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7): What a hideously racist comment.

I fail to see what's so offensive or racist about it. Please do elaborate my oh so sensitive friend.  

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 22): I fail to see what's so offensive or racist about it.

I believe the term he was looking for is "xenophobic". The insinuation is that immigrants are giving the US a bad image, and/or dumbing us down.

It's a lame excuse and a horrible scapegoat for the failings of our education system.

I think one of the key problems as to the USA, is that over the last 20 or so years, to assure the 'numbers' look right, to hold down dropout numbers to assure funding, much of our basic education has been 'dumb downed' so are mainly 'teaching to the test', especially as to math and science. Part of that to is from fears of non-white students not passing the test, so you just lower the minimum standards to meet the test.

Does any other country have such importance given as to sports in High Schools as the USA? No way and that is a distraction as well as a use of funds and time that takes away from educational needs. I am quite sure almost all other countries have significant gym class programs, but no competive, interscholastic sports.

USA students spend a lot fewer class hours and days per year in the classroom in many countries, in part due to outmoded traditions from over 100 years ago. Typically a USA student spends less than 180 days or about 1000 classroom hours a school year, while in other countries they that may be 200 days or more and closer to 1200 classroom hours a year.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 6): Every kid I've met born in the late 90's and after seems extremely lacking of any sort of culture whatsoever and most are extremely narrow-minded and dull.

Screw culture. Teach them to read, write, and do math or at least teach them a useful skill. Maybe if kids didn't spend as much school time screwing around with music and art they might actually learn something.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 8): Similarly, Americans in general seem extremely reticent to accept the fact that we can lose at things

I don't think kids care since they've been getting trophies for being losers their entire life.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 19): The melting-pot experiment is far deeper and more complex than skin color.

Well the original comment came across to me as basically "The results are skewed because none of the Mexican kids speak English."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25): Well the original comment came across to me as basically "The results are skewed because none of the Mexican kids speak English."

Immigration is a huge part of what has given our country unique strengths, down through history. There's no denying that.

This doesn't mean that examining the effects of immigration and the melting-pot experiment should be taboo, though. And it's certainly not racist, or even about race. The mixing of so many cultures, ideas, and yes, languages, can have a profound effect on a society. Furthermore, immigration to America is a constantly evolving process that isn't the same now as it was in any other decade, and won't be the same the next decade. We shouldn't just stick our heads in the sand and expect nothing to change, especially in this country.

Whatever, I will drill my kids so they beat the Shanghai average, if it's the last thing they do.

But it's true... American standards in Math + science are woeful. I had access to the very best American schools, and the we just don't expect a lot from kids. We act like it's abnormal to hit a high level of math/science or cultural functioning in high school. In other countries, advanced math (Stats+) occurs in high school FOR ALL KIDS.

In other (Asian) countries, high school is a time to buckle down and study -- not play sports, videogames, rap music and smoke pot, and have sex. This is quite a cultural difference...

We could do a lot better even without changing our culture... we approach school all wrong, that's for sure. Math / programming / engineering is useful, and beautiful. Techy stuff should not be presented like this albatross everybody hates. I love the stuff, it's great, I feel like I could be the best math or chem or programming teacher ever.

Makes me want to become a teacher... except for the crummy work environment.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27): In other (Asian) countries, high school is a time to buckle down and study -- not play sports, videogames, rap music and smoke pot, and have sex. This is quite a cultural difference...

Yes but talk to a Japanese or Korean person and ask them if they enjoyed their childhood. 2 in 3 will tell you they were miserable, didn't have enough time with friends, and hated the constant pressure of tests that decided their fate every step of the way through high school only to get into universities that are pathetically easy to skate through. I didn't meet many teenagers in Japan that were very pleased about going to cram schools for additional instruction in math or Japanese vocabulary four hours a night, three nights a week, and often Saturdays. The kids who already had crappy test scores are out enjoying themselves, at the bowling alley, playing video games, whatever, as their parents will spoil them with their money whether they're excellent students or not. Kids that were excellent students in Japan are invariably social invertebrates with few prospects for dating or friends as adults unless they were lucky to be born in a rich family that socialized them properly. Obviously this culture is not the solution either.

We should be striving for a happy medium where kids have the support and encouragement to push themselves academically, without the Nazi limitations on their lives and social development.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27): Makes me want to become a teacher... except for the crummy work environment.

That's part of the problem. The only people who become teachers are people who for some reason want to be teachers or just don't have anything else to do. It isn't a top flight career.

More than anything, whether or not the kids are successful at school depends on the attitude of their parents.

Too bad no politician will touch that with a ten foot pole and instead try to put the blame on any and everything else.


Attitude, its why education is in the toilet and things are just getting worse as time goes on.

Here's one example: 30 years ago, vs now:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25): Screw culture. Teach them to read, write, and do math or at least teach them a useful skill. Maybe if kids didn't spend as much school time screwing around with music and art they might actually learn something.

By culture I meant more along the lines of being more worldly. Teaching kids how to play Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata will obviously contribute close to nothing in their lives. However, telling him who he was, might at least give them some appreciation, and IF they feel so inclined, they can follow along his footsteps.

Hell, I've met kids who have no idea who Neil Armstrong was. Also, being an American living in Mexico, I've been asked the most ridiculous questions when I get back to the states. People have asked me whether I had to get around in a burro, if I was given an AK-47 on my 15th birthday, whether I had to make my own clothes, if it's true you can buy a house for $100 USD, if there's no TV, Radio, etc etc I honestly wish I was making this stuff up.   

This doesn't help either:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 31): I've met kids who have no idea who Neil Armstrong was.

That is totally shocking, I'm Sorry..... wow..  

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 31): This doesn't help either:

Over time, (and this is healthy) getting our ass kicked by other countries will make us respect them. If you live in the Netherlands you have to be knowledgeable about the world, because they employ you, and everything you buy comes from them.... soon that will be true for us.... we look outward, as our share of the world economy and pop culture shrinks.

That map is wonderful. What is that "evil doers" thing by China... Taiwan?! Seems odd.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 30): Here's one example: 30 years ago, vs now:

How appro-po - the contrast between the 60s family and the morbidly lard-ass family in the modern view is just sadly all too true.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 32): That map is wonderful. What is that "evil doers" thing by China... Taiwan?! Seems odd.

Probably Vietnam...which would still be inaccurate since they're a growing capitalist tiger.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 7): What a hideously racist comment

Explain please.

Or do we now ignore facts as being anti-social and racist?

Put any amount of different cultures, races and creeds together to follow one set of principles and the overall performance will be lower simply because of the communication and perception differences. Nothing racist or non-pc about that.

Unless you believe everyone is equal and should learn at the same speed and pace as everyone else.

This isn't just an American problem, although I expect it is magnified somewhat there. It is a fairly universal one where there are a lot of migrant peoples trying to integrate into a standard system that doesn't actually cope well with the various differences in language, perception and culture encountered.

So be careful about blanket comments that show a narrowness of vision that is somewhat frightening.

Andy   

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 31): if I was given an AK-47 on my 15th birthday

That's in Somalia, not Mexico. I think that getting one's first assault weapon is like the African version of a Bar Mitzvah. The really lucky ones get an RPG.

Quoting deltaownsall (Reply 8): We're an extremely competitive country at our heart, but I think that we're proving ourselves to be incredibly slow in realizing that we're not just competing amongst ourselves, but with the rest of the world as well.

Agreed. Yet most people still bury their heads in the sand and pretend this is not the case.


The New York Times carried this article as well and last I checked there were over 400 comments. Quite a few of them were still trying to find excuses and dissing the Chinese performance as the result of mere rote memorization and/or cheating.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 35): The really lucky ones get an RPG.

This lucky one?




Sorry, could not resist...

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4): Furthermore I think we are still a somewhat anti-intellectual society.

We are VERY anti-intellectual. When institutions of higher learning like the Ivy Leagues are called "bastions of liberal ideology" when they're actually the most highly-regarded academic institutions in the world, we have a problem. People in this country want to feel good, which means believing what they want to believe. Never mind book learnin'. That's for sissies and liberals.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 31): Hell, I've met kids who have no idea who Neil Armstrong was. Also, being an American living in Mexico, I've been asked the most ridiculous questions when I get back to the states. People have asked me whether I had to get around in a burro, if I was given an AK-47 on my 15th birthday, whether I had to make my own clothes, if it's true you can buy a house for $100 USD, if there's no TV, Radio, etc etc I honestly wish I was making this stuff up.

You forgot people asking if you speak Mexican.

On the flip-side, many Americans aren't aware that Spanish, like English, is actually a EUROPEAN language, not a South American one.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38): You forgot people asking if you speak Mexican. On the flip-side, many Americans aren't aware that Spanish, like English, is actually a EUROPEAN language

I personally prefer "Mexican" to "Spanish", for that very reason. Many people in Spain have a hard time understanding Mexicans, with all the "slang" they use.

Quoting geekydude (Reply 36): Quite a few of them were still trying to find excuses and dissing the Chinese performance as the result of mere rote memorization and/or cheating.

Many of those commenters might not have been so critical if China had participated in the PISA program on the same basis as other countries but they did not, they manipulated the outcome to suit their own agenda so they should gain no credit from the results.
I would like to give credit to the students of Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau for their results but based on the cavalier contempt China has shown for the program there is likely grounds to believe those results were manipulated as well!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38): When institutions of higher learning like the Ivy Leagues are called "bastions of liberal ideology" when they're actually the most highly-regarded academic institutions in the world, we have a problem. People in this country want to feel good, which means believing what they want to believe. Never mind book learnin'. That's for sissies and liberals.

Isn't that a rather anti-intellectual argument in and of itself? You're purposely equating intellect with liberalism and anti-intellect with conservatism. You've reduced the argument, once again, to "conservatives bad/stupid, liberals good/enlightened." As a man of such professed mental acuity you're really doing yourself and the argument a disservice by being so petty and snobbish.

It's not some huge state secret that most U.S. educators embrace liberal ideology, and a sizable number of these professors use their lecterns as bully pulpits to "promote" their viewpoints. What I think you fail to understand, though, is that this is almost universal--from the Ivy League all the way down to South Podunk Community College. It's not like technical schools are heralded as the bastion of conservatism. And I think it's a red herring to say that conservatives dismiss the validity of our best schools because of their perceived political biases...but I question your motives on that.

I think that really boils down to the fact that PhD's of all types, while competent and generally geniuses in their own fields of study, are not grounded in the "real world." The least liberal (nee most conservative) professors I had were in the business field, with the highest percentage in economics.

What we need is a culture change. We can set goals and quotas all day long, but at the end of the day, the school administrations are going to do whatever they can to just squeak by their quotas. I saw it when I was in public high school--they would just put Band-Aids on top of Band-Aids in an effort to juice the numbers. At least from my perspective, which granted was a limited one, there was no real effort to correct the real problems. Quotas may work in factories, but they are really lousy motivators when it comes to education.

Proper education begins at home. And I think the general lack of desire and drive for a decent education is largely a sociological problem. An above poster mentioned that he thought income and education were directly proportional. This may be true, though I'm not sure...but relation doesn't imply causation. My girlfriend grew up with very little, but got into an Ivy League school--because her mother really drove home a love and importance of education. She's been all over the world because she has a thirst for knowledge, not because she was particularly privileged. The "entitlement mentality" is very real, and that along with instant gratification have really taken a toll on our children's education.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38): You forgot people asking if you speak Mexican. On the flip-side, many Americans aren't aware that Spanish, like English, is actually a EUROPEAN language, not a South American one.

There are actually marked differences between Castilian Spanish and the stuff you find in the Americas. It's a little "lax" on this side of the globe.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 40): Many of those commenters might not have been so critical if China had participated in the PISA program on the same basis as other countries but they did not, they manipulated the outcome to suit their own agenda so they should gain no credit from the results. I would like to give credit to the students of Shanghai, Hong Kong and Macau for their results but based on the cavalier contempt China has shown for the program there is likely grounds to believe those results were manipulated as well!

I'd like to know how they manipulated the outcome as you claimed.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 41): sn't that a rather anti-intellectual argument in and of itself? You're purposely equating intellect with liberalism and anti-intellect with conservatism. You've reduced the argument, once again, to "conservatives bad/stupid, liberals good/enlightened."

Have to agree here. As a senior at a T20 institution (and one of the more "conservative" ones, traditionally), I can say from experience that it's not easy to find too many conservative or even moderate professors outside of the Economics department. I have a decent amount of friends at other T20 and ivy schools that will agree, no matter what their political inclination. The "liberal bias" argument is pretty damn accurate at this level (of course, some of the most liberal, borderline hippie teachers I've ever had were in High School, so who knows), so I'm not going to blame people who harbor this stereotype. However, it's absolutely false to equate liberalism and intellectualism. I've known far too many "liberals" who seem to think the simple choice to embrace liberal ideology, without knowing the first thing about the world or even bothering to educate themselves, is enough to make them smarter than "non-liberals."

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 41): Proper education begins at home. And I think the general lack of desire and drive for a decent education is largely a sociological problem. An above poster mentioned that he thought income and education were directly proportional. This may be true, though I'm not sure...but relation doesn't imply causation. My girlfriend grew up with very little, but got into an Ivy League school--because her mother really drove home a love and importance of education. She's been all over the world because she has a thirst for knowledge, not because she was particularly privileged. The "entitlement mentality" is very real, and that along with instant gratification have really taken a toll on our children's education.

Great points, and you touched on what is really keeping the top American universities ahead of their foreign competition. Top U.S. schools like the ivies have the most money, and therefore can admit students based solely on their qualifications. At many of the top schools, 60%+ of the students are on some sort of financial aid, which is a testament to the meritocratic nature of admissions. At many top foreign universities, a fat bank account will lower your qualification threshold considerably, especially if you're an int'l student.

Who cares if China manipulated their testing. If they had done it like everyone else... we would have moved up at most one spot. Whoopty effing do. That does not change the fact that our kids, parents, and schools are underperforming.

Quoting geekydude (Reply 42): I'd like to know how they manipulated the outcome as you claimed.

Ah cmon. If you know the first thing about the party and how it operates (and from past experience, I know you do), you have to admit that it's highly unlikely that these figures are free and clear of some sort of manipulation. Still...

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 44): Who cares if China manipulated their testing. If they had done it like everyone else... we would have moved up at most one spot. Whoopty effing do. That does not change the fact that our kids, parents, and schools are underperforming.

         If we want to be competitive, we need to get our own damn house in order.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38): You forgot people asking if you speak Mexican.

Oh yes!!! How could I miss that!!! That's the one I get most often         

My answer to that question is always "No, I don't speak a word of Mexican, but I do speak Spanish perfectly" 

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39): I personally prefer "Mexican" to "Spanish", for that very reason. Many people in Spain have a hard time understanding Mexicans, with all the "slang" they use.

Says who? I have never had any problems communicating with Spaniards and vice versa, which I've done pretty often.

I will say though some Spaniards seem to be of the thought that Spanish doesn't exist at all and that the actual language should be called Castellano (Castilian).

Quoting geekydude (Reply 42): I'd like to know how they manipulated the outcome as you claimed.

By not conducting the test in diverse and random sampling of the population, doing the test only in Shanghai almost certainly skewed the results.
The process for PISA was to do the testing across a broad sample of the countries young people... those who chose to make up their own rules did not do that.

Shanghai is what 2% of the Chinese population hardly a valid sample.

But then a common statitistical practise is to ignore the highest and lowest scores so maybe we should just do that.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 24): Does any other country have such importance given as to sports in High Schools as the USA? No way and that is a distraction as well as a use of funds and time that takes away from educational needs. I am quite sure almost all other countries have significant gym class programs, but no competive, interscholastic sports.

I absolutely 100% disagree with this. Team sports instill a sense of character and team work into children that in no way can be replicated in the classroom. Furthermore, there is much added motivation to meet the academic requirements to participate. Improving a childs character, team work, motivation, and academics is NOT a distraction.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 47): By not conducting the test in diverse and random sampling of the population, doing the test only in Shanghai almost certainly skewed the results. The process for PISA was to do the testing across a broad sample of the countries young people... those who chose to make up their own rules did not do that. Shanghai is what 2% of the Chinese population hardly a valid sample. But then a common statitistical practise is to ignore the highest and lowest scores so maybe we should just do that.

But one should realize that this PISA test report has never claimed that result from Shanghai mirrors that of China in its entirety. The test is to compare educational attainment from different OECD level countries, of which China is not a member. Shanghai is picked out of the many megacities in China in that Shanghai is closer in terms of economic development to OECD countries. You do not need to take it out of context and label this as cheating. In the years to come, they might add Beijing, Guangzhou, and some other 2nd and 3rd tier cities into the sample if PISA deem them to have comparable level of economic well-being to OECD countries.