Truthers And Bithers. What's Next?

varigb707 · Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:13 pm

Well, first we had the 'truthers'. Tthose who questioned all the 9-11 events and motives and whatnot.
No, the 'birthers'. Those who'll question Obama's citizenship.

I wonder who coined such terms. And what'll be the next.

hka098 · Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:14 pm

Quoting varigb707 (Thread starter):
I wonder who coined such terms. And what'll be the next.

The Tea Party?

ALTF4 · Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:04 pm

those who will (who'll) question Obama's citizenship?

They already do.

Oh... you meant "who do"?

Jetsgo · Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:52 pm

It's already here...

Racist - Anyone willing to put cognitive thought into immigration reform.

Maverick623 · Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:12 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 2):
those who will (who'll) question Obama's citizenship?

They already do.

Oh... you meant "who do"?

He was using an archaic form of "who will", as in "who have been and continue to". I believe it's called present imperfect or some such nonsense

Quoting hka098 (Reply 1):
The Tea Party?

Quoting hka098 (Reply 1):
Racist -

You miss the point. The catch phrases are for people who believe and espouse ideas that run contrary to common sense, and do it solely for the purpose of drawing attention to themselves. A form of sarcasm.

agill · Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:30 am

Can't we just call them idiots?

hka098 · Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:54 pm

I think birthers are those who will use any excuse to rail against the man in the White House. Truthers? Some folks just love a good conspiracy, myself included, but do not go as far as considering 9/11 to be an inside job.

aloges · Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:22 pm

Is there snazzy name for the chemtrail people? If not, we could invent one.

DocLightning · Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:48 pm

Non-vaccinators.

Don't even get me started.

JakeOrion · Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:53 am

Quoting Agill (Reply 5):
Can't we just call them idiots?

But then you'll be offending the idiots.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Non-vaccinators.

Would love to hear the story behind this one.

Mir · Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:04 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 9):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Non-vaccinators.

Would love to hear the story behind this one.

There are those who think that vaccines are dangerous, and who don't want to get vaccinated for anything. They tend to also prevent their children from getting vaccinated for anything. This is stupid for several reasons. First, whatever dangers the vaccines might have pale in comparison to the dangers of the diseases themselves. Secondly, many of those diseases are very contagious, so you've got people out in public that could be carriers for them. Ultimately, they're putting themselves, their children, and everyone else around them at extreme risk.

I will admit that I do think that there's an over-medication culture, and that a part of that is a push to vaccinate everyone against stuff that really isn't that serious most of the time (i.e. chickenpox), but when it comes to stuff like polio, whooping cough, hepatitis, tetanus, etc., not getting immunized is idiotic.

-Mir

DocLightning · Sun Dec 19, 2010 5:52 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 9):

Would love to hear the story behind this one.

1) Vaccines have Mercury in them (most don't, no childhood vaccine does in this country).
2) Vaccines cause autism (they don't. No study has ever found an assocation. Many studies have found a positive association between full vaccination and positive neurodevelopmental outcome).
3) The mercury in the MMR vaccine causes autism (MMR never had mercury because it is a live vaccine and MMR has never been associated with autism).
4) Research done by Andrew Wakefield shows that MMR causes an irritable bowel/autism syndrome (Andrew Wakefield's study was discredited because he performed it unethically, hid major conflicts of interest... oh and faked the data).
5) I know this kid who got a shot and then got really sick and died/got cancer/wound up retarded. (Because it's perfectly sensible to blame the vaccine when the last two million kids to get the vaccine had no problem at all).

LMP737 · Tue Dec 21, 2010 2:32 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
1) Vaccines have Mercury in them (most don't, no childhood vaccine does in this country).
2) Vaccines cause autism (they don't. No study has ever found an assocation. Many studies have found a positive association between full vaccination and positive neurodevelopmental outcome).
3) The mercury in the MMR vaccine causes autism (MMR never had mercury because it is a live vaccine and MMR has never been associated with autism).
4) Research done by Andrew Wakefield shows that MMR causes an irritable bowel/autism syndrome (Andrew Wakefield's study was discredited because he performed it unethically, hid major conflicts of interest... oh and faked the data).
5) I know this kid who got a shot and then got really sick and died/got cancer/wound up retarded. (Because it's perfectly sensible to blame the vaccine when the last two million kids to get the vaccine had no problem at all).

This is one conspiracy theory that is actually dangerous. The truthers and birthers are not really hurting anyone, except for themselves maybe. However this belief than vaccines cause autism has some very serious consequences if people decide not immunize their children. The recent outbreak of whooping cough in California is evidence of this.

dl757md · Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:40 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
2) Vaccines cause autism (they don't. No study has ever found an assocation. Many studies have found a positive association between full vaccination and positive neurodevelopmental outcome).

So Doc what does cause autism?

UNCRDU · Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:07 pm

Quoting dl757md (Reply 13):

The autism vaccine, duh.

garnetpalmetto · Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:23 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 12):
The truthers and birthers are not really hurting anyone, except for themselves maybe.

I don't know, LMP. With all the calls from some in the birther camp for military coups, "second amendment solutions," and out and out civil wars, I think there's the potential for someone other than themselves to be hurt

4holer · Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:40 pm

Quoting dl757md (Reply 13):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
2) Vaccines cause autism (they don't. No study has ever found an assocation. Many studies have found a positive association between full vaccination and positive neurodevelopmental outcome).

So Doc what does cause autism?

Lack of a definitive answer to that question does not assign cause to just anything by default. And you know that.

My entire existence revolves around a 10 year old with autism. None of you who have not done this can understand how much effort caring for people with autism takes. His mom is convinced that vaccinations are the cause. It gives her some comfort to be able to give herself an answer to the question of "Why?". I am a chemist and look to science and facts to find solutions. As much as I want to definitively point the finger to something like vaccines that provide "closure" to the unanswered question, there is simply no evidence at this time to show vaccines as the cause. SOMETHING is responsible, and human nature demands that we look for that answer. But every person who wastes time, effort, and money into the vaccine route is distracting us from finding what's really doing this to our kids.
Me and her know not to discuss this issue since we will never agree. And while Jenny McCarthy may have given many mothers like her some hope for solutions. In the end, I see her as just a snake-oil salesman with a great set of, well, you know...

dl757md · Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:30 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 16):
Lack of a definitive answer to that question does not assign cause to just anything by default. And you know that.

I'm not a vaccine conspiracy advocate yet I do believe that the medical establishment is TOO focused on discrediting anyone who is doing research into whether or not there is a link.

Lack of a definitive answer to my question also invalidates the quote below. You can no more say that vaccines don't cause autism when you don't understand what causes autism than you can say they do without medically/scientifically accepted proof that they do.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 12):
2) Vaccines cause autism (they don't.

Quoting 4holer (Reply 16):
My entire existence revolves around a 10 year old with autism

I can't say my entire existence revolves around my 16 year old with autism(I have 4 other kids without it) but a large part of it does. We spent the first 10 years of her life faithfully following the advice of medical professionals with little to no affect. They wouldn't even diagnose her with autism because even though she scored as a moderate on all the tests she had a rare but known metabolic disorder the diagnosis of which took 3 years. Her doctors/psychologists reasoned that it must not be autism because there was a known medical cause for her what they called PDD. So while the medical community couldn't get off its collective butt and make a diagnosis that was clearly valid my daughter languished without the help she needed. We all know how important early intervention with autism is. She didn't get it and I blame the medical establishment.

planespotting · Tue Dec 21, 2010 5:33 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Non-vaccinators.

Don't even get me started.

*shudder*

I think all relatively major conspiracy theories live this life cycle:

1) Person is unhappy/confused about something
2) Person hears about someone else who feels the same way about the same issue
3) People who feel the same way dialogue with each other, groupthinking assumptions and ideas and coming up with a conclusion based on a number of opinions, usually based on rhetoric, passion and random anecdotal evidence (such as an infant 'seems' fine, then gets a few vaccines, and a few weeks later is discovered to be autistic), as opposed to any set of scientific-based facts.
4) Other people who are concerned with the issue interface with the main group, and add to the mass of pro-conclusion thinkers, all the while the conclusion is still based on heresay and a few anecdotal incidents that happen to have something in common.

4holer · Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:17 pm

Quoting dl757md (Reply 17):
You can no more say that vaccines don't cause autism when you don't understand what causes autism than you can say they do without medically/scientifically accepted proof that they do.

Note that I said "at this time".
But having said that, I've seen no scientifically valid study that indicated vaccines are the trigger, and not for lack of looking. So I'd be surprised, but not stunned. Who knows? It may have something to do with mom or dad's vaccines back in the day. ....Or microwave ovens, catalytic converters in cars, or dryer sheets, or baby monitors, or mom's consumption of yogurt, or (insert other environmmental factor that has changed coincident with the increase in autism)...

dl757md · Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:23 pm

Quoting 4holer (Reply 19):
Note that I said "at this time".

Noted. Though I was referring to what I quoted rather than your statement.

76794p · Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:33 am

I consider myself a truther, the facts just dont add up. I have five reasons that i believe it was an inside job.

1. National air defense stand down, when four commercial jets are hijacked and no one knows where their headed i believe it would be a good idea to take them down.

2. Jet Fuel - Jet fuel just doesn't burn hot enough to melt structural steel ans bring down buildings that were designed to handle not one but two airliner impacts and not collapse

3. Building Seven- Building seven was not hit by a plane and was the farthest building from WTC 1 and 2. It was barely hit with debris and had small fires in it during the day which no way on earth could have brought it down and then Larry Silverstein said to " pull it" which is the demolition term to bring down a building with controlled demolition.

4. The Pentagon- How on earth could a lousy pilot who could barely control a 172 control a fully loaded 752 travelling at 90 percent of the speed of sound. Also what happened to the plane, planes are made of some the strongest materials known to man and don't vaporize on impact this applies to shanksville as well. For example take TWA 800 which literally exploded and we still found huge parts of it.

5. The black boxes- The official report says that they were never found. Come on give me a break. they are once agian made of some the strongest materials know to man and they disappeared , i have seen the test they go throught could have survived the impacts and fires.

DocLightning · Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:47 am

Quoting dl757md (Reply 17):

I'm not a vaccine conspiracy advocate yet I do believe that the medical establishment is TOO focused on discrediting anyone who is doing research into whether or not there is a link.

That explains the half billion dollars and half million kids studied in the last ten years?

Quoting dl757md (Reply 17):

Lack of a definitive answer to my question also invalidates the quote below. You can no more say that vaccines don't cause autism when you don't understand what causes autism than you can say they do without medically/scientifically accepted proof that they do.

If vaccines cause autism, then vaccinated children would have a higher rate of autism than unvaccinated children. Except they don't. In fact, fully-vaccinated children have a lower rate of autism than unvaccinated children.

There is no evidence of any vaccine ever used causing autism. The burden of proof lies on the side of those who claim it does, and so far there is no evidence (after a very long and expensive search) to support their claim.

Now everyone can see how this vaccine risks lives of the premature and other kids who are especially at risk. In 2010 there is a pertussis outbreak in California and poor vaccination is a cause. But the conspiracy theories keep coming in. Polio cases never declined after the vaccine, they either 1) started declining prior to the vaccine (an artifact of the fact that there are no data points exactly at the time of vaccination) or 2) were subsequently misdiagnosed as aseptic meningitis (because clearly physicians were too dumb to tell the difference between these wildly different conditions).

I could go on and on and on...

DeltaMD90 · Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:37 pm

Not talking about vaccines in general, but my cousin almost died (and after years, still can barely walk) due to the flu shot. Those vaccines or the hepatitis ones, for example?

DocLightning · Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:39 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
Not talking about vaccines in general, but my cousin almost died (and after years, still can barely walk) due to the flu shot. Those vaccines or the hepatitis ones, for example?

There were a few cases of guillan barré syndrome associated with a flu vaccine about 30 years ago.

Remember, people DO get horribly sick and die after flu shots. That goes without question. The question is whether they are MORE LIKELY to get horribly sick and die in the two weeks after than before and the answer is that they aren't.

A year ago, a 14yo girl got the first HPV vaccine and collapsed dead four hours later. The press made a huge deal of it.

A few months ago, the autopsy came out: she had advanced cancer and her chest was full of tumor. It chose that moment to occlude her aorta. Nobody had known. The association between her vaccine and her death was coincidental. But the story was buried on page 12.

4holer · Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:46 pm

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):

Sir, I have learned to not engage truthers as logic is not a currency they can exchange. But there are perfectly valid, and more specifically, perfectly obvious answers, to all of the "points" you've raised. And I have a brother who was in the Shanksville crater who is forever changed by what he saw, so don't try to tell me your "facts" as you've read them on the internet.

Aaron747 · Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:18 pm

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
2. Jet Fuel - Jet fuel just doesn't burn hot enough to melt structural steel ans bring down buildings that were designed to handle not one but two airliner impacts and not collapse

Steel didn't have to melt for the buildings to collapse. Big difference between melting and weakening temperatures that can no longer hold normal loads. Also sorry, but you seem to lack elementary understanding of intertia.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
How on earth could a lousy pilot who could barely control a 172 control a fully loaded 752 travelling at 90 percent of the speed of sound.

Oh dear

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
The black boxes- The official report says that they were never found.

Oh dear again

DeltaMD90 · Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:36 pm

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
I consider myself a truther, the facts just dont add up. I have five reasons that i believe it was an inside job.

My biggest argument against all this "truthing," although not scientific at all, is simple: do you honestly think the US government can keep a secret? They are terrible at that, just look at the whole wikileaks thing. A 9/11 sized operation would need to have quite a few people involved, don't you think someone would've squealed?

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
1. National air defense stand down, when four commercial jets are hijacked and no one knows where their headed i believe it would be a good idea to take them down.

There was a lot of confusion that day. If they would have shot down all airliners they weren't sure about, they would've probably shot down that one Delta aircraft they thought was hijacked. I guess if they did that, truthers would claim that someone on that plane was going to reveal the whole conspiracy!

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
3. Building Seven- Building seven was not hit by a plane and was the farthest building from WTC 1 and 2. It was barely hit with debris and had small fires in it during the day which no way on earth could have brought it down and then Larry Silverstein said to " pull it" which is the demolition term to bring down a building with controlled demolition.

Why would brining down this building help the 9/11 conspiracy? Maybe that building's cameras caught a glimpse of the cruise missile at an angle where its holograms didn't work!

There are things on 9/11 that seemed weird, but all these theories go way over the top. The only thing I really believe was possible was the CIA or someone had a warning of an attack but they didn't fully act on it (I'm sure if they acted on every lead people would complain about fear mongering.) What a world we live in. Anyway...

Doc, I've always heard about diseases mutating to get past the vaccines and getting stronger, is that all BS? I never really thought to look it up, just take it for what it's worth. What I thought was weird about that argument is that if you vaccinate, maybe one day down the future there will be new strains, but that's better than not vaccinating and being sick now! Can't you just make a new vaccine for the mutated bacteria?

Aaron747 · Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:46 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
My biggest argument against all this "truthing," although not scientific at all, is simple: do you honestly think the US government can keep a secret? They are terrible at that, just look at the whole wikileaks thing. A 9/11 sized operation would need to have quite a few people involved, don't you think someone would've squealed?

Shhhhh!!! Too much logic - their heads will explode!!

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
Doc, I've always heard about diseases mutating to get past the vaccines and getting stronger, is that all BS?

Yes, researchers and epidemiologists are constantly monitoring genetic changes to microbes causing common diseases.

DocLightning · Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:01 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):

Doc, I've always heard about diseases mutating to get past the vaccines and getting stronger, is that all BS?

For the most part yes, it's BS. There is one counter-example and that is S. pneumoniae. It's not so much that it mutates as it is that the strains that weren't in the original 7-valent vaccine moved in to replace the seven strains that had been eradicated. So now we have to have a 13-valent vaccine. And in another five years, they might have to add yet another 6-10 strains...

Otherwise, we have never seen an organism mutate around a vaccine.

Maverick623 · Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:20 am

I'll bite, because I'm bored:

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
when four commercial jets are hijacked and no one knows where their headed i believe it would be a good idea to take them down.

Until you realize that the planes were just headed to Cuba and you just murdered 300 innocent people. Good job.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
2. Jet Fuel - Jet fuel just doesn't burn hot enough to melt structural steel ans bring down buildings that were designed to handle not one but two airliner impacts and not collapse

First of all, you don't need to melt steel to cause it to fail. Second of all, where did you get this BS that the towers were built to withstand two airliner impacts? News to me....

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
It was barely hit with debris and had small fires in it during the day

Understatement of the century. Literally.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
and then Larry Silverstein said to " pull it" which is the demolition term to bring down a building with controlled demolition.

It's also the term used to get everyone the hell out of there because it's going to collapse, not to mention there's no official source to back that quote up.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
How on earth could a lousy pilot who could barely control a 172 control a fully loaded 752 travelling at 90 percent of the speed of sound.

Who said the pilots were lousy? Certainly not their instructors.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
Also what happened to the plane, planes are made of some the strongest materials known to man

Ahahahahha. I can take a bag tug and put a hole in a plane (and I've seen it happen before). Planes are made out of aluminum and sometimes composites. Strong, but they don't hold up well against direct impacts.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
and don't vaporize on impact

No, they break into pieces. When jet fuel explodes, it break them into even smaller pieces and melts many of them.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
For example take TWA 800 which literally exploded and we still found huge parts of it.

One section exploded, splitting the airplane into three major pieces. Around the site of the explosion, the plane was fragmented. Look at the pictures sometimes.

And by the way, there were large pieces found. Engine cores and landing gear assemblies, along with seats with bodies still strapped into them.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
they are once agian made of some the strongest materials know to man

Once again, you talk out of your behind.

Quoting 76794p (Reply 21):
and they disappeared

They did no such thing.

Mudboy · Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:08 pm

I think Conspiracy Theories come from those that smoke too much pot

Nothing worse than abstract thought, while high as a rat, unless you are writing songs?

I also think that these idiots that keep questioning where Pres. Obama was born, seriously need to realize how desparate they look. WE GOTCHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They look as stupid as the people that think that everything Tina Fey says, when she is doing Sarah Palin on SNL, is what Sarah Palin said. Does the political ping-pong ever end?

aloges · Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:11 pm

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 31):
Does the political ping-pong ever end?

If you changed your voting system fundamentally to include a 3rd, 4th or even 5th party, the game might change slightly.

ltbewr · Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:14 pm

What seems to be a common threads as to 'conspiracies' seems to be that 1) something happened where a Billion to one set of circumstances occurred; 2) Information and evidence is limited as not there or destroyed or otherwise lost; 3) A very narrow number of powerful people had be be involved for the events to have occurred; 4) reverse engineering as to what happened occurs with a number of false leads followed.

As to 9/11 Truthers, the events of 9/11 meets the points I notes and their are enough questions, along with incompetency in the FBI and GWB's Administration to show holes that are taken advantage by 'truthers'.

As to the 'Birthers', if Pres. Obama was born in Kansas rather than the at the time of his birth the exotic, distant from the mainland and then new state of Hawaii', and had a name like Joe Jackson, probably there would be a lot less of a stupid issue made. I also suspect that as he is a person of Black African heritage, there is a racism issue involved, so some want to find any way possible to discredit him.

Truthers And Bithers. What's Next?

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