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Aloha717200
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:53 pm

I am in agreement with you Doc. I do not consider myself to be a part of organized religion, per se, but I have belonged to many churches over my lifetime, and read the bible as well, so I feel that if someone wants to make an argument using scripture as their support, it is wise for me to already know the context of the scripture and so not be fooled by scripture being bent to the desires of the person making the argument.

In contrast, I am taking no scripture to support my feeling that homosexuality is not a sin. So the main difference here is that I'm not twisting religion to support my beliefs. If someone wants to argue religion with me, I can hold my own. But I do draw the distinction between what is doctrine versus my personal beliefs.

Nevertheless, many will cherry-pick from the bible and decide for themselves what true christianity is. That is the nature of humans, and ties right in with our free agency. But regardless of one's faith or nonfaith, it's nice to know the context of scripture just in case someone tries to use it against you. Like I said, I'm not a bible thumper, but I have read it, and I assume that many self-declared "good christians" have only become familiar with that which is discussed directly in church or fed to them by other sourced, potentially in altered form.

So let's be clear: I'm separating my personal feelings from actual doctrine. The WBC wants to argue doctrine, I can argue doctrine. I'm fighting them on their own territory. This has nothing to do with my own personal beliefs, which I don't use scripture to support.
 
QFKangaroo747
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter):
Reading the message they sent, I got blown away at the pure anger they spew.

That's not just anger, it's pure hate (and, dare I say...insanity?).
 
skidmarks
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:11 pm

Oh great, the WBC nutters are going to Salt Lake and Park City the same week my stepdaughter and her boyfriend go. And they are staying with a Mormon family.

Well, if they get caught up in any of their shit they will have one very irate Brit to deal with, who doesn't respect any religion that countenances oppression and demands.

Wishful thinking I know, but these people give religion such a bad name. I really feel for normal people who beleive, who have to watch and listen to the tripe and vehemnce this crowd spew.

Well, fingers crossed they won't even know they are there. America is a big place and they are very little people!  

Andy   
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
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mayor
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Quoting skidmarks (Reply 52):
America is a big place and they are very little people!

With very little brains.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 50):

So let's be clear: I'm separating my personal feelings from actual doctrine

Then we agree. But my thought process took it one step further: "If that's OK, and if there are large segments of Scripture that are demonstrably false, but it claims to be infallible, then the whole thing is untrustworthy and should be considered false."

And so I rejected all scripture as... horse hooey.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:07 am

Quoting skidmarks (Reply 52):
Oh great, the WBC nutters are going to Salt Lake and Park City the same week my stepdaughter and her boyfriend go. And they are staying with a Mormon family.

Who is staying with the Mormon family? WBC or your family?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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mayor
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:27 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
Who is staying with the Mormon family? WBC or your family?

I sincerely doubt if any LDS family would take in anyone from the WBC.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:45 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 56):

I sincerely doubt if any LDS family would take in anyone from the WBC.

I haven't heard any statements from the LDS Church on the matter, but they do have certain philosophical similarities on the matters.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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mayor
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:14 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 57):
I haven't heard any statements from the LDS Church on the matter, but they do have certain philosophical similarities on the matters.

They do, but I doubt if they would want to be lumped together with the WBC right now or ever, for that matter.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:18 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 58):

They do, but I doubt if they would want to be lumped together with the WBC right now or ever, for that matter.

And this is why I love WBC. They have done more for the cause of gay rights than anyone else. At some point, someone is going to call the LDS Church out and ask them what they think of all this.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
flyorski
Topic Author
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:43 pm

Well the protest came and went with no big deal. Everyone ignored them, no one paid them any attention. As far as I am aware none of the media even reported on them in any big deals, certainly no one interviewed them. Utah is a very conservative state as far as the government is concerned, although if more people voted it would become less conservative. My brother did tell me that the principle of the high school asked students not to hold a counter-protest although some of them still did (typical high school students, any chance to skip class, right?   ). Anyways its good to know that protest they might, but receive attention they wont.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
And this is why I love WBC. They have done more for the cause of gay rights than anyone else. At some point, someone is going to call the LDS Church out and ask them what they think of all this.

I think the LDS church is perhaps 50-70 years behind the times, so it may still be a long while before they realize being Gay is not a big deal.

Quoting mayor (Reply 56):
I sincerely doubt if any LDS family would take in anyone from the WBC.

  
I would agree with that. Only if the member of the church was being disowned, or having doubts about the church would they be welcome I imagine.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 41):
And I'm not a religious zealot. Let it be known right now that I am not a bible thumper in any way. But I have, at least, read the damn thing, and know that these folks are picking and choosing from it in order to further their, frankly, godless agenda.

Very great post. Its nice to know that those who really reads the bible (I never have- dont consider it 'interesting reading.') can see a better more welcoming message. I think that for me, I see Christians spewing hate so frequently that it turns me away from all religion in general.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
skidmarks
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 55):
Who is staying with the Mormon family? WBC or your family?

My family, Doc. As quoted by someone else, I can't see Mormons putting them up!

Andy   
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:28 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 59):
They have done more for the cause of gay rights than anyone else

Haha, I even remember seeing a clip on youtube about a Fox News anchor defending gay people as she interviewed one of them. Maybe they are gay rights advocates... nah

Edit: Ok I found the youtube clip, taken out of context I guess, I just remembered it different (it's around 1:08) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8cN2pB3MCE

[Edited 2011-01-25 21:32:08]
 
signol
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 49):
In my opinion, the only "true" Christians are those who live fundamentally by the word of the Bible... every word of it

Surely the only "true" Christians are those that follow the words of Christ, and no other? ...

signol
Flights booked: NWI-AMS-JNB-DUR, JNB-AMS-NWI
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:20 pm

Quoting signol (Reply 63):

Surely the only "true" Christians are those that follow the words of Christ, and no other? ...

What are the words of Christ? The NT. Right? Unless you have a recording of his speeches that demonstrates some innacuracy.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
flyorski
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:15 am

Quoting signol (Reply 63):
Surely the only "true" Christians are those that follow the words of Christ, and no other? ...

I would say anyone who identifies themselves as a Christian is one. We have no right to deny them what they believe they are. Of course many religious people will say, "if your not one of us, your not Christian." The reality is people are whatever they chose to be and identify with. If for you a Christian follows the word of Christ, then that is your definition of a Christian, however if others believe they are Christian, then who are we to disagree? The same goes with the WBC, they claim others are not Christians when others are, and others claim they are not Christians, however they also are. Its a matter of personal identity.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 64):
What are the words of Christ? The NT. Right? Unless you have a recording of his speeches that demonstrates some innacuracy.

I consider that to be irrelevant. If people think they are something, they are just that.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:47 am

Quoting flyorski (Reply 65):

I consider that to be irrelevant. If people think they are something, they are just that.

Ah, then Phelps as is as Christian as the Pope, Billy Graham, Barak Obama, and Jeffrey Dahmer (after his miraculous conversion in prison). We agree, then.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
signol
Posts: 2652
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:44 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 64):
What are the words of Christ? The NT. Right? Unless you have a recording of his speeches that demonstrates some innacuracy.

I'd say the records of the 4 guys who were there and wrote it down. The rest of the NT is mainly one other guy's interpretation of that...

signol
Flights booked: NWI-AMS-JNB-DUR, JNB-AMS-NWI
 
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mayor
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RE: Westboro In Utah

Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:20 pm

Quoting signol (Reply 67):
I'd say the records of the 4 guys who were there and wrote it down. The rest of the NT is mainly one other guy's interpretation of that...

And there's the rub............reminds me of one of my favorite jokes................


"A new monk arrived at the monastery. He was assigned to help the other monks in copying the old texts by hand. He noticed, however, that they were copying copies, not the original books. The new monk went to the head monk to ask him about this. He pointed out that if there were an error in the first copy, that error would be continued in all of the other copies.


The head monk said, 'We have been copying from the copies for centuries, but you make a good point, my son.' The head monk went down into the cellar with one of the copies to check it against the original.



Hours later, nobody had seen him, so one of the monks went downstairs to look for him. He heard a sobbing coming from the back of the cellar and found the old monk leaning over one of the original books, crying.


He asked what was wrong.


'The word is 'celebrate,' not 'celibate'!' sobbed the head monk."





 
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen

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