The WESTBORO BAPTIST CHURCH is planning on picketing in Utah next week. My younger brother got a message from them because they are picketing his high school. Apparently people are hosting a counter-protest at the same time/same place. Reading the message they sent, I got blown away at the pure anger they spew. Interesting stuff, I had never heard much about these people before. Just started watch the BBC mini-documentary "The Most Hated Family in America." Has anyone here had any encounters with them?

"West High School in Salt Lake City, UT January 24, 2011 7:10 AM - 7:40 AM
WBC to picket the worthless brats who attend West High School in Salt Lake City, as well as their teachers and parents who have taught them from the cradle that God is a liar. You reprobates will hear some truth for the first time in your lives, to wit: God does NOT love everyone and it IS NOT okay to be gay or to fornicate with anyone or thing you please. Instead, you are to flee youthful lusts that war against your soul and seek to live sober, righteous and godly while on this earth. Now that you are old enough to read for yourselves, check this out:

Abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul (1 Pet. 2:11); Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart (2 Tim. 2:22).

Your parents, teachers, preachers and leaders - including Anti-Christ Beast Obama - lied to you because they hate you and they hope to justify their own sins by refusing to teach you what God requires of you. Well, WBC will teach you; here it is from King Solomon, the wisest man who EVER lived:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ec. 12:13.)

How blessedly simple. Now, just DO IT -- TODAY! This nation's destruction is imminent!!"

I have not, thank goodness, group madness is at work again, just like we have witnessed before. They are part of the price we pay for Freedom of Speech.

I believe religion is ignorance......hey that's my view that's what I believe so chill out....
They were here in Raleigh last month at Elizabeth Edwards funeral and the counter-protest turnout was huge....

What a bunch of idiots. I just happened to drive by the conference center when they were in town protesting a few years ago. One of their ilk was standing on the corner holding an American flag upside down. Any idea why they have specifically chosen West as the site of their prostest?

It really is quite sad to think of all of the good work that Fred Phelps did as a civil rights attorney in Kansas before he went insane.

I just hope the next sequel of The Punisher features these guys... If ever there were problem with a Frank Castle kind of solution...

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 2): I believe religion is ignorance

I would agree with that. However these people take it way past ignorance. I am amazed watching them from the BBC documentary. They seem to be a huge in-bred family.

Hate is a popular way to unite frustrated people, and the honorable reverend Phelps is a master at using that hate.

It speaks poorly for the people of Kansas that his church has managed to attract and keep any parishioners.

Patriot Guard Riders - gasp, bikers! - are working against this malicious, hateful group.

I would advise an average civilian should never try to interfere with this Westboro bunch, as they have proven to be very ready to drag anyone who impedes them into court - thus wasting your money and time.


Steer clear, call police, call media, and try to ignore the ginormous amount of pure bile they spew.


If you believe in God, hopefully it isn't the same hateful, vengeful, cruel God these people believe in.


RR

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3): Any idea why they have specifically chosen West as the site of their prostest?

I have no idea. I wonder if its random? They have a lot of high schools in Salt Lake they could have chosen, so to focus on West seems strange.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 4): If ever there were problem with a Frank Castle kind of solution...

Haha, that would be great!

Quoting rottenray (Reply 6): I would advise an average civilian should never try to interfere with this Westboro bunch, as they have proven to be very ready to drag anyone who impedes them into court - thus wasting your money and time.

Sounds like great advise to me.

Quoting rottenray (Reply 6): It speaks poorly for the people of Kansas that his church has managed to attract and keep any parishioners.

Hey now, just because a family decides they want to be batsh!t crazy, doesn't mean the people of Kansas (myself included) can do anything about it. You learn to ignore them and they'll fail to continue getting press. The place is dependent on press coverage. People ignore them, and they'd stop getting it.

What do you want us to do, revoke their constitutional rights, just because we don't agree with them? That concept is just as flawed as they are, IMO.

-DiamondFlyer

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 2): I believe religion is ignorance......hey that's my view that's what I believe so chill out....

WBC is not "religion." It is vile unbridled hatred distributed under the guise of religion.

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter): The WESTBORO BAPTIST CHURCH is planning on picketing in Utah next week. My younger brother got a message from them because they are picketing his high school.

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter): "West High School in Salt Lake City, UT January 24, 2011 7:10 AM - 7:40 AM

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3): Any idea why they have specifically chosen West as the site of their prostest?

I'm wondering about that too. Kansas to Utah seems an awfully long way to drive for only 30 minutes of scheduled protesting, unless they have a specific topic/perceived transgression to protest about, unless of course Westboro Baptist Church has now resorted to the "throwing darts at a map" method of selecting protest sites.

And seriously, even if Westboro Baptist has resorted to throwing darts at a map to select protest sites, I'd think hitting Salt Lake City, Utah would be reasonable grounds for a second toss. Granted, I've never been there, but if I were to make a list of cities that qualified by reputation as "hotbeds of sin and Godlessness", Salt Lake City, Utah wouldn't be on it.

Could it be that the Phelps family intended to protest at West High School in, oh, I dunno... Sand Lake, Idaho, or Salt Lick, Ohio, but got confused?

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 9): WBC is not "religion." It is vile unbridled hatred distributed under the guise of religion.

Says who?

Who says that they aren't the "True" Christians and you are just a godless fag-lover?

That's the trouble with religion. Whereas in science, nobody claims absolute infallible authority, in religion EVERYONE does.

So if Fred Phelps says that you're a godless pretender practicing a bunch of lies, I'd like to see you prove him wrong. Moreover, I'd like to see you prove that your view of religion is correct.

Personally, I'd love to see someone blow-dart Mr. Phelps with an HIV-tainted needle. Thank God for AIDS! Oh, I'd never do something like that. I'm harmless. Perhaps I'm too much of a coward. But I couldn't hurt a flea. I take care of sick kids, I love dogs, etc. I can't harm another person. Just not in my nature. But I can wish...

I cannot believe the amount of vile hate coming from these people. Just goes to show that extremism in ANY religion is a bad thing.

It's good to see other groups unite against them. Sometimes people need a catalyst to come together for what's right.

Quoting TSS (Reply 10): And seriously, even if Westboro Baptist has resorted to throwing darts at a map to select protest sites, I'd think hitting Salt Lake City, Utah would be reasonable grounds for a second toss. Granted, I've never been there, but if I were to make a list of cities that qualified by reputation as "hotbeds of sin and Godlessness", Salt Lake City, Utah wouldn't be on it. Could it be that the Phelps family intended to protest at West High School in, oh, I dunno... Sand Lake, Idaho, or Salt Lick, Ohio, but got confused?

I decided to do some digging for funsies, and visited their oh so elonquently titled website, www.godhatesfags.com. Anyway, it appears that the protest at West High is part of a multi-stop protest here in Utah on the 23rd and 24th. They plan to visit a local temple and protest the Jews, they then plan to protest the Catholics, and finally the Mormons. The plan is to then head up to Park City and protest the Sundance Film Festival for showing Kevin Smith's "Red State" which was inspired by Phelps and his "church". I wish I was making all of this up, but I found it on their website under the picket schedule. That's right, they maintain a picket schedule on their website.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11): Personally, I'd love to see someone blow-dart Mr. Phelps with an HIV-tainted needle.

I just can't bring myself to go that far. I just can't wish that upon anyone.

The only thing that remote comes close to a "reason" for them to protest is this:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=14068169

But then again, they don't need a reason. They protest for sport.

http://www.google.com/search?q=westboro+baptist+church

Quote: About 1,880,000 results (0.19 seconds)

With this threat, that will be 1,880,001 results. The more the world talks about them, the more power we give them.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11): in religion EVERYONE does.

No, Christians believe God is THE infallible authority. Religion and our interpretation of God is a human institution; therefore it's fundamentally flawed. Sure, there are sects that believe whatever their pastors say is absolute truth--but not me.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11): Who says that they aren't the "True" Christians and you are just a godless fag-lover?

Well, I believe God is the only true authority on that. I can't speak for Him. Christians have been persecuting each other for thousands of years for lots of petty reasons. Maybe I'm a "fag-lover" or "fag enabler" or whatever Phelps and his ilk like to say. I personally believe that whatever sins are committed are between the sinner and God. I know I do enough sinning of my own to worry about those of other people. Quite simply I take the approach to "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Matthew 7:1). And that'll be up to God to determine on the day that I am judged. Same with the Phelps clan.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11): So if Fred Phelps says that you're a godless pretender practicing a bunch of lies, I'd like to see you prove him wrong. Moreover, I'd like to see you prove that your view of religion is correct.

Nothing I could possibly say to you would "prove" my view of religion is correct. Conversely, nothing you could possibly say would "prove" YOUR view of religion is correct. Thus we arrive at the same sticking point experienced between Christians (indeed all theists) and atheists (yes, even Jewish ones   ) for thousands of years. It's impossible to conclusively prove or disprove this completely intangible concept.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11): Says who? Who says that they aren't the "True" Christians and you are just a godless fag-lover? That's the trouble with religion. Whereas in science, nobody claims absolute infallible authority, in religion EVERYONE does. So if Fred Phelps says that you're a godless pretender practicing a bunch of lies, I'd like to see you prove him wrong. Moreover, I'd like to see you prove that your view of religion is correct.

Exactly. And looking at the mess the world is in, at least their "bad god" makes some sense, unlike the all loving one.

Of course the way they act to bring the lambs back is stupid, heinous and backward, and I would counter picket them if there was such a group in my country (but there would be no need as what they do would be illegal here).

Quoting OA412 (Reply 13): I decided to do some digging for funsies, and visited their oh so elonquently titled website, www.godhatesfags.com. Anyway, it appears that the protest at West High is part of a multi-stop protest here in Utah on the 23rd and 24th. They plan to visit a local temple and protest the Jews, they then plan to protest the Catholics, and finally the Mormons. The plan is to then head up to Park City and protest the Sundance Film Festival for showing Kevin Smith's "Red State" which was inspired by Phelps and his "church". I wish I was making all of this up, but I found it on their website under the picket schedule. That's right, they maintain a picket schedule on their website.

Interesting. I guess they have a whole agenda for Utah. I can hear the comments already, 'Look, its a huge inbred family from Kansas yelling in the streets.' Apologies to those from Kansas who will inevitably hear negative things about your great state.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17): (but there would be no need as what they do would be illegal here).

Thats interesting, how does that work? What do they do that would be considered illegal?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17): but there would be no need as what they do would be illegal here

Protesting, illegal? In France?    That's news to me!

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 20): Protesting, illegal? In France?

Protesting is certainly not illegal. The French start protesting when they only have 274 sorts of Camembert to choose from.
To libel a goup of people, however, could be illegal, as it would be in Germany. Whether or not the Phelps family qualifies would be up to a court to decide.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3): Any idea why they have specifically chosen West as the site of their prostest?

Of all the public high schools in SLC, West is probably the most diverse. I would guess that is the reason.....they have an after school gay group there.



My solution would be to put WBC in a room with some LDS missionaries.........in a matter of time, WBC would either be asleep, dead from boredom or fleeing back to Kansas.  

Quoting flyorski (Thread starter): Interesting stuff, I had never heard much about these people before.

Really? Seriously? I never watch TV or follow the news at all and I've known about them for years.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 2): I believe religion is ignorance...

I'd say, especially in this case, it's more brainwashing than anything.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 20): Protesting, illegal? In France? That's news to me!

Protesting is one thing, anti-homosexual slur is another one and it's illegal. Also, there are laws about protesting, you must declare your intentions, your motives and your planned course to the authorities, who can ban it if they think it could lead to problems, or if your motives are illegal to begin with. Picketing a funeral would definitely fall into this category for example.

Now, in practice, spontaneous protests happen and are not always dispersed or the organizers brought to justice, for example if the protest is about a murder or something like that, it's not a problem usually. When it's about an international event with something happening before an embassy, it can be trickier.

Quoting mayor (Reply 22): My solution would be to put WBC in a room with some LDS missionaries...

There ya go! Let the punishment fit the crime!

Quoting mayor (Reply 22): ...in a matter of time, WBC would either be asleep, dead from boredom or fleeing back to Kansas.

Or, and this is a really scary prospect, the WBC folks would convert and form a new radical sect of the LDS church that does it's protesting on a door-to-door basis.     

Quoting TSS (Reply 25): Or, and this is a really scary prospect, the WBC folks would convert and form a new radical sect of the LDS church that does it's protesting on a door-to-door basis

Kind of like hit and run protesting?



Seriously, tho, no matter how you feel about religion, whether you are religious or not, these people are scary in that they have their children parroting the exact same things that they are saying. They've protested numerous military funerals all on the pretense that since the deceased is in the military and the U.S. military supports don't ask, don't tell, that their funeral is fair game for the protesters. God knows what they'll do now that it has been repealed.

What I want to know is why Kansas is a hotbed of these kind of people? They've got WBC and violent, anti-abortion protesters. What breeds these kind of people, anyway? And don't say it's just Christianity or religion in general. I know plenty of religious people that are no where NEAR like any of these people.

When will the rational majority renounce these out-dated, offensive and dangerous religious people? It's time to make a stand.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 23): Really? Seriously? I never watch TV or follow the news at all and I've known about them for years.

I may have vaguely heard of them, but it was not something I ever really looked at or tried to understand.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24): Protesting is one thing, anti-homosexual slur is another one and it's illegal. Also, there are laws about protesting, you must declare your intentions, your motives and your planned course to the authorities, who can ban it if they think it could lead to problems, or if your motives are illegal to begin with. Picketing a funeral would definitely fall into this category for example.

We have the same laws, they do declare when they are protesting, and what location it is in, and the city or county can deny them the right if its in a place that would hamper safety (like if they protested in front of a fire station meaning the fire fighters could not leave to respond or something) however if the city or county denies them the protest permit, then the city or county needs to find a reasonable alternative location. The only difference appears to be that they can say or protest what-ever they want even funerals while in France that might be outlawed?

Quoting flyorski (Reply 28): The only difference appears to be that they can say or protest what-ever they want even funerals while in France that might be outlawed?

I would say that their type of protests and hate speech would contravene article 1 of the German constitution: "Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar" (The dignity of a human being can not be taken away).


Jan

The WBC came to my college about ten or eleven years ago. That day the entire school threw a huge outdoor Gay pride party in the park next to where the space the town's police had allocated for their protest. I would even hesitate to say that it was a Gay Pride event. It was students, families from the town (which is located in a very conservative state), just normal folks (from all sides of the political spectrum). Everyone had a good time, nobody engaged them in any verbal sparring, and generally speaking, they were just sort of left sitting there looking foolish on the corner while bands played, people listened to discussions about tolerance, and people ate pie and apple cider. The only really overt things done to antagonize them were basically a bunch of gay couples who went and made out across the street (maybe 30 feet) from them.

Leave them be, don't give them exposure. They love nothing more than to sue people and to get media coverage. They are deeply objectionable but they still have a right to say what they want - just as we all have a right to make fun of, counterprotest, or completely ignore them.

[Edited 2011-01-21 15:04:25]

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 16): No, Christians believe God is THE infallible authority.

And yet he's so strangely silent.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29): I would say that their type of protests and hate speech would contravene article 1 of the German constitution: "Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar" (The dignity of a human being can not be taken away).

It's an interesting philosophical discussion.

Germany bans hate speech. I think this is a response to their Nazi history and a way of making sure that such atrocities never happen again.

In the United States, Freedom of Speech is considered sacrosanct. As long as the speech itself causes no direct harm, it is permitted. You can't falsely accuse someone of murder or yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, but if I want to stand on a soapbox and say that all Zoroastrians are evil aliens from Xonodar, I'm allowed.

Many people say that bans on certain kinds of speech would lead to a slippery slope. What if the viewpoint that gays should have equal rights was considered too offensive for decency? But I think that the discussion of hate speech is different. It's one thing to speak about a political theme, but it's another thing to say that an entire class of people are automatically evil and the cause of all of our problems. Then again, we've never had a Hitler.

And we really DON'T have freedom of speech in the U.S. The FCC regulates what words can be said on the radio. You can't show pornographic movies in certain settings, etc. We do have "decency" laws and I would argue that they are also inhibitions on the freedom of speech.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29): I would say that their type of protests and hate speech would contravene article 1 of the German constitution: "Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar" (The dignity of a human being can not be taken away).

The basic rights written in the constitution are the individuals' rights when they face governmental power. Westborow would not be a state authority of course, hence the constitution does not apply. For the same reason, a newspaper does not censor you when they refuse to print your letter to the editor.

If anything § 130 StGB (demagoguery/hate speech) or § 186 StGB (libel) would apply, I dare say.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): Germany bans hate speech. I think this is a response to their Nazi history and a way of making sure that such atrocities never happen again.

You are right.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): but if I want to stand on a soapbox and say that all Zoroastrians are evil aliens from Xonodar, I'm allowed.

You could do so in Germany too, as this would clearly go as comedy. 

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32): As long as the speech itself causes no direct harm, it is permitted.

I would think insult is a punishable offense in the U.S. too, but where does it start?
In Germany, judges have no problem when you say "airline pilots are a bunch of overpaid #*%§!". In contrast you will likely get fined when you specify your insult: "This LH pilot Nina Scholz is an overpaid #*%§!".

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 33): Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 29): I would say that their type of protests and hate speech would contravene article 1 of the German constitution: "Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar" (The dignity of a human being can not be taken away). The basic rights written in the constitution are the individuals' rights when they face governmental power. Westborow would not be a state authority of course, hence the constitution does not apply. For the same reason, a newspaper does not censor you when they refuse to print your letter to the editor.

Ok, you are the guy with a degree in law, not me.

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35): Ok, you are the guy with a degree in law, not me.

Not quite; I am no lawyer. For professional reasons, I am fairly well informed as far as copyright laws and media/press laws are concerned, but that's about it. As for the constitution/Grundgesetz, that's just something I know.

Edit:

Quote: Durch die Verfassung garantierte Rechte, die dem einzelnen Menschen gegenüber dem Staat unmittelbar zustehen. (...) Grundrechte haben vor allem eine Abwehrfunktion, das heißt, sie sollen gegen stattliche Eingriffe - zum Teil auch gegen Dritte - schützen. Einige Grundrechte gewähren jedoch auch einen Anspruch gegen den Staat (Anspruchsrechte) Die Grundrechte binden die Gesetzgebung, die vollziehende Gewalt und alle Gerichte als unmittelbar geltendes und höchstes Recht.

http://www.rechtslexikon-online.de/Grundrechte.html

[Edited 2011-01-22 08:09:10]

[Edited 2011-01-22 08:12:16]

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 34): I would think insult is a punishable offense in the U.S. too, but where does it start?

When it's libel or slander, as I understand. As I understand it, Phelps (a lawyer) is very careful about what their signs say. It is not a demonstrably false statement to claim that God Hates Fags. As I understand it, the only party that could sue for libel/slander in this case would be God. That would be... interesting.

I gave a few examples of speech that do cause direct harm. So if you're walking past me and I suddenly point at you in the middle of a crowd and yell "THAT MAN KILLED MY BABY AND DRANK HER BLOOD, KILL HIM!" and the mob descends on you, then my speech caused you direct harm and is criminal because it's 1) false and 2) inciting others to violence.

However, stating that God Hates Fags does not directly harm anyone, nor does it incite anyone to violence.

While I understand why Germany has "hate speech" laws, I worry about their misuse. We've seen too many Far-Right groups here claiming that gay rights advocates are guilty of "Anti-Christian" hate speech. What would happen if enough of those people got into power?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37): While I understand why Germany has "hate speech" laws, I worry about their misuse. We've seen too many Far-Right groups here claiming that gay rights advocates are guilty of "Anti-Christian" hate speech. What would happen if enough of those people got into power?

They wouldn't get any far here I would say. The above mentioned § 130 StGB states that "hate speech" or - closer to the original term of "Volksverhetzung" - incitement of hate, applies if

a) one incites hatred against parts of the population or incites to violence or arbitrary measures against them; or
b) attacks the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously libel, or defaming parts of the population

But - and that's a big but - "hate speech" must be disturbing public peace to be punishable!
When I just stand at a crossroads and scream "Those damn Jews!" once or twice this won't really disturb public peace. Same if gay people just want to marry.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37): However, stating that God Hates Fags does not directly harm anyone, nor does it incite anyone to violence

I don't know about that. I could see how the second part of your statement might not be true...

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 38): When I just stand at a crossroads and scream "Those damn Jews!" once or twice this won't really disturb public peace. Same if gay people just want to marry.

Again, these things are open to interpretation.

These jerks want to talk scripture? Alright, let's talk scripture.

On their website, they quote numerous, out of context passages from the Bible in an effort to show some authenticity to their claims that god hates homosexuals. Homosexuality IS discussed in the bible and is abhorred, but this is mentioned mostly in the old testament. In the New Testament, however, we get this nifty guy name Jesus, who promises that if we should but only believe in him, believe in his sacrifice, and repent sincerely of our sins, that we should be saved. Jesus, also, speaks often and strongly about the importance of love over hatred.

Was it not Jesus who said "He who is without sin, cast the first stone?" He said this while protecting an accused adultress, telling her only to sin no more. That doesnt sound like hate to me, yet in today's society, things such as adultery are considered unforgivable, cardinal sins. Yet jesus himself could forgive it. Is it such a stretch to consider that Jesus might have the same loving approach to homosexuality? Jesus also said "Love ye your fellow man, even as I have loved you."

My SISTER is a lesbian and a very good person, and I refused to believe that God, or Jesus, have any hatred for a person like this.

The New Testament shows us that people of all walks of life have a path to god through Jesus Christ. And that hate is the opposite of that which Jesus preached and stood for. But, if this is not enough to convince you that these crackpots are in the wrong, consider the following:

The war in heaven.


The WBC, on its website, openly calls for a national day of prayer and the merging of church and state in this country. They openly support the idea of humans being forced into subservience to God.

Let's reference the war in heaven again. There were two competing plans for how mankind should be made to live on this earth. One plan was by Jesus, the other by Lucifer. Lucifer loved God so much, that he wanted all men on earth to be bound to his praise. All men would be required to follow the exact rule and law of God. Complete subservience, praise, and dedication to His name.

Jesus, on the other hand, called for the ability for man to choose for himself whether to believe or not, to worship or not, to sin, or not. He called for free agency. For freedom of will.

These competing viewpoints lead to the war in heaven and the casting out of Lucifer and all who believe in his plan of subservience into Hell itself.

Let's go back to the WBC: They want complete subservience and strict obedience of god, not freedom of choice, free will, free agency, whathaveyou, but strict observance and following of God's laws and ideals. Gee. That sounds a lot like the plan Lucifer had for man, as well. The plan that got him and all of his followers cast into hell.

Any Christian faith that preaches against free will and love amongst all men, forgiveness, and observance of the teachings of Jesus (judge not!) are therefore not serving god, but Satan himself. Jesus abhors hatred. And the WBC, using its hatred and desire for control over the free will of men, is not of Jesus, and therefore not of God. They are doing Satan's bidding. And the sad thing about that is, they probably don't even realize it. Maybe they should read up on the War in Heaven sometime and take a really good long look at themselves.

And maybe they should also realize that commandments in the Old Testament were AMENDED by Jesus' coming to earth. It is through JESUS alone that Christians can be saved. According to scripture. Which apparently, these folks have never objectively read.


And I'm not a religious zealot. Let it be known right now that I am not a bible thumper in any way. But I have, at least, read the damn thing, and know that these folks are picking and choosing from it in order to further their, frankly, godless agenda.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 41):

Absolutely brilliant post, Aloha717200! I do love to see out-of-context scriptural quotes put into to proper perspective and intelligently rebutted!

Welcome to my Respected User's list.   

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 41):

     

That was brilliantly put.

  B4e-Forever New Frontiers  

Quoting TSS (Reply 42): Welcome to my Respected User's list.

Much appreciated, thank you. Unfortunately quoting scripture out of context has proven a powerful tool amongst Christians because I would say the majority won't find the motivation within themselves to go crack open the Bible and read the context. People like this count on people not checking the facts, and just believing what they hear.

The fact of the matter is that man will twist the word of whatever deity he believes in to suit his own purposes.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 41): Yet jesus himself could forgive it. Is it such a stretch to consider that Jesus might have the same loving approach to homosexuality?

Is it love to tell me that loving (and having sex with) my partner is a sin and that I should stop doing it and instead live a life of abstinence alone, denying the nature of who and what I am? That sounds like hate in love's clothing.

The bit that you miss in your otherwise excellent post on scripture is that I AM gay. I didn't choose it. I just AM. So if there is a heaven and a God in it, then s/he must've made me that way. So either my very nature, given by God, is sinful (a malevolent theology if there ever was one) or the bit about homosexuality being a sin is wrong. If that's wrong, then how do we know which parts of the Scripture are right? We're left to picking and choosing, which doesn't make much sense in a theology of any kind.

This is the self-contradictory nature of scripture that leads me to reject the whole thing.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45): The bit that you miss in your otherwise excellent post on scripture is that I AM gay.

Actually, Doc, I agree with you 100%. As I mentioned earlier, my sister is a lesbian, but what I omitted was that I'm a big proponent of equality and gay rights. So if any offense was taken, I assure you it wasn't intended.

My main point was addressed towards those who consider homosexuality to be a sin. (I, personally, do not). If they believe that homosexuality is a sin per their faith, then they must also consider, per their faith, that all sins can be forgiven through Jesus Christ. As much as I feel that homosexuality is something a person simply is, I realize that believing the same as I do may be a bridge too far for some. But at the very least, none can claim by scripture that homosexuals have no place with God. This is simply untrue.

But again I agree with you according to my own personal beliefs, which are that homosexuality is not a sin and that God and Jesus can love you just the same regardless of sexual preference. I cannot back up my personal beliefs with scripture, however. It is what feels right in my heart.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 46): But again I agree with you according to my own personal beliefs, which are that homosexuality is not a sin and that God and Jesus can love you just the same regardless of sexual preference. I cannot back up my personal beliefs with scripture, however. It is what feels right in my heart.

Wow, that sounds almost exactly what I've been thinking the past year or so. Not only do I not believe it's a sin to be gay anymore, I also believe it isn't my business. In the entirety of the Bible and Christianity, homosexuality is such a small, ambiguous part of it all. I just wonder why so many people aren't up in arms about adultery, which is way more rampant IMO

I feel like you can be a Christian without having to be a member of an organized religion. Like someone said (not sure who), "Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage, makes you a car".


My point is that many people think that just because they go to church, it makes them a good Christian and they think that their attendance will make them look good.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 46): I cannot back up my personal beliefs with scripture, however. It is what feels right in my heart.

That's noble. But (and this is the line of reasoning that started me down the path to atheism) if you can disregard even one part of scripture based not on scripture itself (i.e. not based on parts where Jesus defined that which was sin as no longer sin, like eating pork and shellfish), then what's to stop you from picking arbitrarily and based on your own logic and feelings what is and what isn't Christianity (or whatever religion you profess)?

As soon as you head down that road, you are departing any known religion and entering into the world of your own spirituality. There's nothing wrong with that. My quarrel is with organized religion that claims to have authority over morality, facts, and history even when they are at variance with what is obvious reality.

But you cease to be a Christian and you become something else. In my opinion, the only "true" Christians are those who live fundamentally by the word of the Bible... every word of it. And when you read it that way (and I have, OT and NT as well as Q'uran and the Book of Mormon), it's a pretty scary text.