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Aaron747
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Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:22 pm

Coming from the recent king of campaigning himself:

“Within our party, we’ve got to be very careful about allowing these people who are the birthers and the 9/11-deniers to get too high a profile and say too much without setting the record straight,” Rove said Wednesday night on Fox News.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49748.html

Seriously, how come so many bright people get it while hack representatives from certain states seemingly don't?? Is it just the education / critical thinking gap or what?

[Edited 2011-02-17 15:22:38]
 
TWFirst
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:23 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Is it just the education / critical thinking gap

  
 
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OA412
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:45 pm

Wow. I never thought I'd agree with Karl Rover about anything. He's right, birthers are an embarassment to the GOP.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Seriously, how come so many bright people get it while hack representatives from certain states seemingly don't?? Is it just the education / critical thinking gap or what?

Part of it, yes. IMHO, another large part of it is that people are being intentionally disingenuous in order to fan the flames and keep the birther myth alive.
 
lowrider
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Seriously, how come so many bright people get it while hack representatives from certain states seemingly don't

You answer your own question. The hack representatives are not bright, just electable. Whether Obama is a US citizen or not, is rather fait accompli now. The birthers would to better to spend their resources making sure any future presidents pass the litmus test for citizenship.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:23 am

Quoting oa412 (Reply 2):
Part of it, yes. IMHO, another large part of it is that people are being intentionally disingenuous in order to fan the flames and keep the birther myth alive.

I agree, quite a few people seem to say "I don't support those birther's, but then why can't Obama produce a simple birth certificate?" And this is nothing but tacit agreement/encouragement/pot stirring by those people.

Tugg
 
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2707200X
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:35 am

I have to give Karl Rove credit, yikes credit, for stepping up even if John Boehner wont directly admit that Obama is a citizen for fear that he will loose popularity with his followers and constituents.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:48 am

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 5):

As I recall Boehner did state clearly that he believes the President was born here, but he simply won't presume to tell others what to think. Nothing inherently wrong with that.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:04 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):

As I recall Boehner did state clearly that he believes the President was born here, but he simply won't presume to tell others what to think. Nothing inherently wrong with that.

You know how it is - if you don't defend Obama with everything you got, you must be a racist homophobic fascist.

How long did it take for the "GWB stole the 2000 election" people to give it up? Same thing. Obama's president - end of story.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:10 am

To me Rove realizes that the 9/11 'Truthers' and the 'birthers' are a terrible distraction to the Republican party and hurts them with the moderates swing voters they need to elect more Repubican canidates to office.
 
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OA412
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:21 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
You know how it is - if you don't defend Obama with everything you got, you must be a racist homophobic fascist.

No actually I don't know that this is "how it is", because it's not. Repeating the lie makes you just as disingenuous as birthers. I've said many times on this forum and elsewhere (as have many others) that not all criticism of President Obama is racist. There are people who have legitimate criticisms, and I have no problem with that. Are there racists who hate Obama just because of his race? Of course there are. But, no reputable person is arguing (or has ever argued as far as I'm aware) that you are automatically a racist for disagreeing with Obama.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 8):
To me Rove realizes that the 9/11 'Truthers' and the 'birthers' are a terrible distraction to the Republican party and hurts them with the moderates swing voters they need to elect more Repubican canidates to office.

Exactly. Defending the birthers means defending a fringe group willing to believe a ridiculous conspiracy theory. You're not exactly impressing intelligent, thinking conservatives when you defend such people.

Quoting tugger (Reply 4):
I agree, quite a few people seem to say "I don't support those birther's, but then why can't Obama produce a simple birth certificate?" And this is nothing but tacit agreement/encouragement/pot stirring by those people.

Agreed!
 
TWFirst
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:13 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 3):
Whether Obama is a US citizen or not, is rather fait accompli now

There is NO QUESTION Obama is a US citizen... his mother was an American citizen. He IS an American citizen. That is not and never has been the issue and those who don't understand that are on drugs. The issue was is he a 'natural born' American citizen... the definition of which isn't as clear as some might believe.
 
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 10):

There is NO QUESTION Obama is a US citizen... his mother was an American citizen. He IS an American citizen. That is not and never has been the issue and those who don't understand that are on drugs. The issue was is he a 'natural born' American citizen... the definition of which isn't as clear as some might believe.

Or maybe he's under the influence of some evil aliens  
 
bjorn14
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:45 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 3):
making sure any future presidents pass the litmus test for citizenship.

Yes, 2012 is right around the corner

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 10):
There is NO QUESTION Obama is a US citizen...

The question has been about him being a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN which requires that you have two citizen parents and 'be born of soil'. He fails at least the first test. Just to be fair I don't think MCain was eligible either being born in Panama...not the PCZ but at the local hospital in Colon.
 
Zentraedi
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:53 am

Man, I can't wait till the next round of birthers come out and protest the first president born via C-section.
 
Quokka
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:51 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 12):
which requires that you have two citizen parents and 'be born of soil'.

The US Constitution did not specify what a natural born citizen was, although the interpretation has evolved over time through various Supreme Court rulings. Different judges have argued from different points of view at different times. But the US Constitution did NOT state that BOTH parents had to have been born in the USA.

US members will correct me here if I am wrong, but I believe Hawaii became a State of the Union in August 1959 and Obama was born in August 1961. So he was "born of the soil" and he had at least one parent who was born in the US. Under modern interpretations and law, that makes him a citizen and eligible to be President.

Whatever the arguments, the authorities responsible for presidential accepted Obama's credentials and he is recognised internationally. If other countries were in any doubt, they would be very reluctant to sign agreements and treaties involving the US.
 
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 14):
he had at least one parent who was born in the US. Under modern interpretations and law, that makes him a citizen and eligible to be President.

The Immigration Act of 1952 said both parents had to be citizens of the U.S. to confer citizenship. If the mother was under 19, then the child received their father's citizenship.
 
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):


Nevertheless, the authority responsible and the courts have ruled Obama is eligible.

The question that immediately arises is, what do those opposed the the notion of Obama being President expect to happen? Do they wish to nullify every contract, agreement, act or treaty that the US has entered into? Will the EU and its constituent parts be expected top rescind whatever they have agreed? Will the US be asking for refunds of moneys extended to Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others because those monies were misappropriated? Will the banks be sued for loans to bail them out because of some alleged electoral impropriety?

Of course they won't because it is impractical and the legal position may be that the laws, acts, treaties, etc may remain valid despite the questionable position of whoever was president at the time. So the whole debate is not about invalidating the Presidency but preventing his re-election and harming the chances of a Democrat majority in future elections.
 
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 16):
Quokka

That's OK you can play laissez-faire with the rule of law.
 
northwestair
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:20 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 10):
There is NO QUESTION Obama is a US citizen... his mother was an American citizen. He IS an American citizen. That is not and never has been the issue and those who don't understand that are on drugs. The issue was is he a 'natural born' American citizen... the definition of which isn't as clear as some might believe.

I thought his mother denounced her US Citizenship. So she was someone with out a country
 
bjorn14
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:21 am

Quoting northwestair (Reply 18):
I thought his mother denounced her US Citizenship. So she was someone with out a country

I don't know about that but Lil' Barry did have to renounce his U.S. citizenship when Lolo Soetoro adopted him as Indonesia didn't/doesn't allow for dual citizenship.
 
LMP737
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:16 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):
The Immigration Act of 1952 said both parents had to be citizens of the U.S. to confer citizenship. If the mother was under 19, then the child received their father's citizenship.



Here's what that particular law actually says.

Sec 301 (a) The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

As you can see this does not apply to the President since he was born in the United States. It seems that its SOP for birthers to twist a particular law when it fits their needs. In this case making it sound like that in order to be a citizen both your parents have to be US citizens. In reality what the law says that if you were born OUTSIDE the USA. In addition the law says nothing about the age of the mother.

Not that it matters one way or the other since the 14th amendment states that anyone born on US soil is a natural born citizen.



http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD&CH=act

Quoting northwestair (Reply 18):
I thought his mother denounced her US Citizenship. So she was someone with out a country

No she did not.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 19):
I don't know about that but Lil' Barry did have to renounce his U.S. citizenship

Yet another false claim.
 
LMP737
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 12):
The question has been about him being a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN which requires that you have two citizen parents and 'be born of soil'.

No it does not, look it up if doubt me.

I think those of us with either parents or grandparents who were immigrants would find that a bit insulting. If what you say is true then what does that make my dad? When he was born my grandfather was not yet a naturalized US citizen. According to you that means he's not a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. Yet he never went through the naturalization process like his dad. So what does that make my father? Under you interpretation of the law he is neither.

[Edited 2011-02-23 14:34:25]
 
mdsh00
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:40 pm

To an earlier post. A natural born citizen is one who is born on US soil. My parents were both Green Card holders when I was born here and were later naturalized. There is no requirement that one parent has to be a Citizen if their child is to be a natural born citizen. This is part of the whole drama about "anchor babies."
 
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):
The Immigration Act of 1952 said both parents had to be citizens of the U.S. to confer citizenship. If the mother was under 19, then the child received their father's citizenship.

In past threads, I and others have shown you that this is not, in fact, the case. Furthermore, personal experience tells me that this is not the case. Neither of my parents was a citizen when I was born, and they are still not US citizens, yet I am, and have always been, a citizen of the United States. Most importnatly, the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States says the following:

"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

He was born in Hawaii, thus he is a citizen of this country. End of discussion!

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 12):
The question has been about him being a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN which requires that you have two citizen parents and 'be born of soil'.

It has only been a question amongst a fringe group bent on believing a ridiculous conspiracy theory. No thinking person can actually believe that he was born anywhere other than the United States.



[Edited 2011-02-23 17:14:55]
 
LMP737
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:54 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 23):
He was born in Hawaii, thus he is a citizen of this country. End of discussion!

If it were only that simple.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:56 pm

We are talking about a NATURAL BORN Citizen...not just any citizen. And if everyone is so sure of this then why won't Obama release his long form birth certificate...the one signed by a doctor listing his height and weight, actual time of birth, etc. In his book 'Dreams' he said he held it in has hands while going through her stuff after she died. BTW, when he was elected Gov. Neil Abercrombie (D-HI) said he was going to get the bottom of the BC issue and produce one....I'm still waiting. The HI legislature was going to pass a law that would charge people $100 to see his BC but backed down.
 
LMP737
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:09 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
We are talking about a NATURAL BORN Citizen...not just any citizen.



Yet you try to make it sound like that in order to be a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN both your parents have to be citizens. Which has been pointed out numerous times to be totally false.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
And if everyone is so sure of this then why won't Obama release his long form birth certificate...the one signed by a doctor listing his height and weight, actual time of birth,



What exactly does his time of birth prove ? 7:24PM by the way. Since you are so interested in his birth certificate what about the birth certificates of other presidents?
 
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:05 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
We are talking about a NATURAL BORN Citizen...not just any citizen.

Obama is a NATURAL BORN citizen. All people born in the United States, and last I checked Honolulu, HI is in the United States, are natrual born citizens.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
And if everyone is so sure of this then why won't Obama release his long form birth certificate

Why should he? The Supreme Court of the United States has said that they are satisfied with the evidence presented them, and that he is a natural born citizen of this country. As soon as that happened, you guys started demanding a copy of his long form birth certificate. Each time you guys are pushed into a corner, and yet another one of your claims is proven to be false, you back peddle and start getting more and more technical. Why should he produce it, nothing short of his impeachment will make any of you birthers happy. Frankly, if I was in his position, I wouldn't release it either. Why do that, when I can simply allow the birthers to make bigger and bigger fools of themselves?

Here are several sites discussing the issue. I'm sure they''ll be ignored as usual, but here they are.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me.../obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
http://www.hlrecord.org/news/origina...rvard-law-school-library-1.1293452
http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
actual time of birth, etc.

What in the world will that prove? If you're born at 7:30 am you're a natural born citizen, but not if you're born at 8? Honestly what in the world will this prove at all?

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
BTW, when he was elected Gov. Neil Abercrombie (D-HI) said he was going to get the bottom of the BC issue and produce one....I'm still waiting.

Why is Obama's birth certificate of such interest to you? Why weren't you and other birthers demanding to see copies of other President's birth certificates? Why did you simply assume that they were all natural born citizens of this country? I think we all know the answer to this one!

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 26):
Since you are so interested in his birth certificate what about the birth certificates of other presidents?

I've asked this question repeatedly, and every single birther always ignores it.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:14 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
Here are several sites discussing the issue. I'm sure they''ll be ignored as usual, but here they are.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me.../obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
http://www.hlrecord.org/news/origina...rvard-law-school-library-1.1293452
http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/...h.jpg

Thanks for listing every Obama apologist website out there.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
Quoting LMP737 (Reply 26):
Since you are so interested in his birth certificate what about the birth certificates of other presidents?

I've asked this question repeatedly, and every single birther always ignores it.

I know McCain was not eligible either because he was born in Panama at the local hospita in Colon. The PCZ hospital would be built a few years later.

For your sake I hope your right because when some states in 2012 will require proof that you are 'born of soil'
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
Thanks for listing every Obama apologist website out there.

You have no credentials to be lambasting non-partisan organizations that do excellent work like factcheck.org.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:25 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
You have no credentials to be lambasting non-partisan organizations that do excellent work like factcheck.org.

And you do? Let's see Factcheck financed by the Annenberg Foundation who also financed an educational program run by Bill Ayers in which Obama was a board member...sounds completely nonpartisan to me.
 
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OA412
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:02 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
Thanks for listing every Obama apologist website out there.

Snopes is an Obama apologist website? You know that it's an urban legend website right? What about politifact? Did you take a look at their site? Let's be honest here, the fact is that you will not be satisfied with any evidence other than that which proves that Obama was not born in this country. You could be transported to the time and place of his birth, and you'd still call it a fraud perpetrated by an Obama apologist. Aaron is right, you have no credentials to be casting stones at non-partisan organizations. Additionally, you have no credibility if you insist on believing something as asinine as the idea that Obama was not born in the US.

Think about what you are suggesting. You are suggesting that the Governor of Hawaii, the United States Supreme Court, and the sitting President are all parties to a massive fraud. Do you truly understand the gravity of such a charge?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 29):
You have no credentials to be lambasting non-partisan organizations that do excellent work like factcheck.org.

  
 
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Tugger
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:03 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
And if everyone is so sure of this then why won't Obama release his long form birth certificate...

And there it is, "I know it has been proven to the satisfaction of every authority that matters on the issue but.... if he REALLY IS born in the USA why doesn't he release..." yada yada yada. Birthers, similar to birdbrains (hey are they birthbrains?) .

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
Thanks for listing every Obama apologist website out there.

Snopes has nothing to do with anything like you suggest. You are just grasping at straws and being lazy.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
I know McCain was not eligible either because he was born in Panama at the local hospita in Colon. The PCZ hospital would be built a few years later.

For your sake I hope your right because when some states in 2012 will require proof that you are 'born of soil'

John McCain was (and is) eligible to be President of the USA, as he is a "natural born citizen" of the USA as his parents were both citizens and he was not and did not have to be naturalized (In 1790, Congress passed the Immigration and Naturalization Act, which gave citizenship to children born overseas when the father was a U.S. citizen). Where do you get the requirement for "of the soil" to be a natural born citizen?

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
And you do? Let's see Factcheck financed by the Annenberg Foundation who also financed an educational program run by Bill Ayers in which Obama was a board member...sounds completely nonpartisan to me.

I take it that you believe that where the money comes from for any organization taints entirely its opinions? Good luck living in this world. You do realize that many groups, organizations, and individuals get money from source that ostensibly may have a bias and yet are able to produce valid and informative data.

Tugg
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
Let's see Factcheck financed by the Annenberg Foundation who also financed an educational program run by Bill Ayers in which Obama was a board member...sounds completely nonpartisan to me.

Utterly irrelevant. Walter Annenberg ran the foundation until 2002 and was a recipient of the Medal of Freedom by President Reagan. The guy donated over $2 billion to notable causes...his credentials are in no way suspect.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:15 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
Utterly irrelevant. Walter Annenberg ran the foundation until 2002 and was a recipient of the Medal of Freedom by President Reagan. The guy donated over $2 billion to notable causes...his credentials are in no way suspect.

WOW! Can I live in your fantasy world? Annenberg is Obama's political beard or was at least duped by Obama.

If someone was saying something bad or untrue about you wouldn't you want the truth out? Eventually perception becomes reality. We'll see when 2012 comes around and states require proof that he was even born in Hawaii. Both hospitals in Honolulu have said they have no record of his birth.
 
flyorski
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 34):
If someone was saying something bad or untrue about you wouldn't you want the truth out? Eventually perception becomes reality. We'll see when 2012 comes around and states require proof that he was even born in Hawaii. Both hospitals in Honolulu have said they have no record of his birth.

What is it with you conspiracy theorists coming out now all of a sudden? How do you believe the events surrounding 9/11 occurred? I only ask because if you are so blindly prone to this conspiracy theory, I wonder if you also believe other equally ridiculous conspiracies?

Are you a citizen of the United States? Not that it is relevant, however it does make me wonder why, if your not, you would have such interest in this anyways.

My perception is that the VAST majority of birthers are simply racist.
 
GDB
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
You know how it is - if you don't defend Obama with everything you got, you must be a racist homophobic fascist.

You could just be mistaking what might be going on in your head with the reality outside of it.
I've read/heard plenty of criticism of the President, including much from left of centre.
But it's hard to see anything else than a large dollop of racism/xenophobia in these 'Birthers', the idea than someone becomes President who also did spend a portion of his childhood outside of the US might well raise hackles with those who often might not even have crossed their state line, let alone been abroad.

Rove was right to link 'Birthers' with the '9/11 Truthers', same tactics, same mangling of the English language for the hard of thinking, often the same people.
Some of whom will be of the 'Historical Review' types too, that being part of a cover name for one of the main (US based) Holocaust Denial groups. (So presumably a source for that odious little man running Iran).
What's the saying? Birds Of A Feather, Flock Together .

Me, I regard all of them as bunkum, JFK assassination, Moon landing faked, the granddaddy of them all, The Elders Of Zion Protocols , as used by the Nazi Party and various dubious types in the Mid East.
Nixon got busted for a tawdry little break in, which then exposed other tawdry little schemes and his essentially paranoid personality, all of which involved a small number of people.
Not the tens of hundreds of thousands needing to be in on any of the others mentioned above.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 34):
Both hospitals in Honolulu have said they have no record of his birth.

Source? Proof? I live in Honolulu and have heard no such thing. Kapiolani Medical Center has never commented publicly on their records because these requests violate Hawaii's HIPAA compliance regulations.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 34):
Annenberg is Obama's political beard or was at least duped by Obama.

Evidence? Source? You clearly know nothing about Annenberg or his foundation.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:57 pm

Quoting flyorski (Reply 35):
Are you a citizen of the United States?

I am a Natural Born Citizen of the U.S. who happens to be living in Norway. Although would not be eligible to run for the President until 2025.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:01 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
I am a Natural Born Citizen of the U.S. who happens to be living in Norway. Although would not be eligible to run for the President until 2025.

By the way, you have not answered why you believe, in order to be eligible to be President, one must be born in (or in areas under the direct control of) the USA.

Tugg
 
CPH-R
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:25 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 12):
The question has been about him being a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN which requires that you have two citizen parents and 'be born of soil'.

Only if you're a De Vattelist. And even then, it's ignoring that the 'born of the soil and two parents' bit is only in the English translation of his work; a translation that didn't exist until after the constitution had already been signed, sealed & delivered.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:32 am

Incidently, I have a feeling that it's somewhat too late for Karl Rove to be attempting to excorcise the Birthers from the GOP, given the number of birther bills that have been popping up as of late.

Of course, the most amusing ones are those that are flat out in disagreement with the constitution and/or practical common sense, by requiring things such as the original long form birth certifice (tough luck if you've ever had water damage in your basement), or by requiring that the candidate have lived in the US for x number of years prior to running (tough luck if you're Army, Navy or Air Force, or in the diplomatic corps!).

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
And if everyone is so sure of this then why won't Obama release his long form birth certificate...the one signed by a doctor listing his height and weight, actual time of birth, etc.

There's the small matter of Hawaii not handing out the long form birth certificates anymore. Oh, and the funny thing is, remember Terrence Lakin? The Army Birther who landed himself in Leavenworth for disobeying orders, while saying that all he wanted was Obamas long form BC, you remember him? As it turns out, he knew all along that it was a wild goose chase. He has a brother who was stationed in Hawaii when his daughter was born, and his brother admitted that they tried to obtain her long form birth certificate - only to find out that they couldn't get it, as Hawaii doesn't hand it out anymore!
 
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:14 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 31):
Think about what you are suggesting. You are suggesting that the Governor of Hawaii, the United States Supreme Court, and the sitting President are all parties to a massive fraud. Do you truly understand the gravity of such a charge?

Well it looks like the USSC is going to reconsider this matter. Since Kagen and Sotomayor should recuse themselves because they have conflicts of interest..

http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.a...x?FileName=/docketfiles/10-678.htm
 
aloges
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:37 am

Folks, have you ever heard the term "troll"?  

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
What in the world will that prove? If you're born at 7:30 am you're a natural born citizen, but not if you're born at 8? Honestly what in the world will this prove at all?

If Obama publicised it for some reason, the trolls would then deny that the doctor who signed it was qualified to do so. And so the story would continue.
 
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OA412
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:33 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 43):
Folks, have you ever heard the term "troll"?

Yes. But sometimes it's fun to play with them, and see just how delusional they can be.  
Quoting aloges (Reply 43):
If Obama publicised it for some reason, the trolls would then deny that the doctor who signed it was qualified to do so. And so the story would continue.

Yup. Or that a US doctor would never sign the document at the stated time, thus it must be a forgery.
 
LMP737
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
Thanks for listing every Obama apologist website out there.

Here's another Obama apologist site.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/227954/born-u-s/editors
 
dl021
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:16 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Seriously, how come so many bright people get it while hack representatives from certain states seemingly don't?? Is it just the education / critical thinking gap or what?

I think the problem comes in from the immediate deniers of any challenge to the veracity or legitimacy of their chosen idol.

If the situation had been handled openly and immediately, rather than not just denying it but immediately turning denial into angry and insulting broadsides people wouldn't have felt it worthy of further discussion. But pride and curiosity got twigged here and it's tough to convince a skeptic who's had his or her pride wounded by insult.

Plus, any critical thinker has to wonder why questions are being asked, and what the answers are, and why the answers came in the way they did.

Categorizing them as "birthers" was probably a tactical error for anyone who wanted the issue to dissipate.

Frankly I wouldn't mind seeing a certified copy of the actual birth certificate, but I also don't think it would have been unleaked if he really wasn't born here or to a US citizen. It's a distraction at best, and there are plenty of real issues to discuss without arguing in a non-productive manner about something that is easily proven or disproven. That's what really pisses me off about this. Knee jerk reactions and refusal for the promised full transparency which causes more knee jerk reactions on both sides.

Fix it already and be done with it. make a copy of the thing and buy an ad in the New York Times.
 
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kanban
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:15 pm

Now you see why Rove wants Birthers silenced... their arguments cast questions about the possibility of any conservative behaving rationally. ... Further, it has long been noted that the more defiant a person's arguments are, the less fact this is in them. Some people can accept they were wrong and possibly misled, while others can not and hang onto stupidity until their dying day.
 
dl021
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RE: Karl Rove: Down With Birthers

Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:39 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 47):
Further, it has long been noted that the more defiant a person's arguments are, the less fact this is in them. Some people can accept they were wrong and possibly misled, while others can not and hang onto stupidity until their dying day.

You're overgeneralizing. Plenty of strident argument on both sides....so one of them has to be wrong, right? Defiance is no sure marker of rightness or wrongess.

I'll also lay odds that plenty of folk from all different political bents are defianlty wrong about things till their dying day.


I think Rove just finds it non-productive and would rather energy be spent on something productive.

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