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hOMSaR
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TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:39 am

The TSA has expanded their ridiculous searches to train stations. That's been the case for a while. Here's a video of them wanding a family at the Amtrak station in Savannah, GA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1B3AubsTBo

One detail that's different from most TSA searches...the passengers had just gotten OFF the train.
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Curtisman
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:44 am

Interesting.

I once flew Peru to Atlanta. Got off the plane and had to go through Security as soon as we got off the plane. Once we cleared security we were allowed to continue on to border control and collect our baggage. This happened about 5 or 6 years ago if I recall correctly.
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WarRI1
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:15 am

Quoting homsar (Thread starter):
The TSA has expanded their ridiculous searches to train stations. That's been the case for a while. Here's a video of them wanding a family at the Amtrak station in Savannah, GA.

Let us blame those who caused this, not the TSA. Let us remember the tube in London and the boys with their backpacks.
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BMI727
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:26 am

Quoting homsar (Thread starter):
The TSA has expanded their ridiculous searches to train stations. That's been the case for a while.

...because nobody would ever consider blowing up a train.  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:28 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Quoting homsar (Thread starter):
The TSA has expanded their ridiculous searches to train stations. That's been the case for a while.

...because nobody would ever consider blowing up a train.

If they wanted to, they would have succeeded.

How many terrorists do you know that want to blow up a train, ride the train all the way to their destination, and then get off and walk away, with all their stuff still with them?
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
Quokka
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:03 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 4):
How many terrorists do you know that want to blow up a train, ride the train all the way to their destination, and then get off and walk away, with all their stuff still with them?

None, but I confess that I tend to shun terrorists.
The presumption in your objection is that terrorists wants to blow up the first train that they travel on. In reality they may have another target. In the UK and Europe trains, railway termini and buses have been the targets of terrorism and terrorists have used more than one form of transport to reach their intended target. That said, the authorities in those countries have not uniformly introduced scanning at railway or bus termini.

Travellers arriving at Australian airports from overseas routinely may have their suitcases scanned, ostensibly for items that breach quarantine, drug importation and money laundering laws, but these scan can also identify possible movements of arms and explosives and have done so on a number of occasions. Body scans and/ or searches on arrival do not normally occur but a person who gives reasonable grounds for suspicion may be searched.
 
signol
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:25 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 4):
How many terrorists do you know that want to blow up a train, ride the train all the way to their destination, and then get off and walk away, with all their stuff still with them?

Didn't the London bombers travel from the north of England on trains, then split up and hit their separate underground train / bus targets? So security checking people after the journey is just like a search on the entrance to the city. How long before there are checkpoints on the roads leading to major cities / potential targets?

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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting homsar (Reply 4):
How many terrorists do you know that want to blow up a train, ride the train all the way to their destination, a

That's like the old joke about the guy who committed suicide by throwing himself behind a train.



Quoting signol (Reply 6):
Didn't the London bombers travel from the north of England on trains, then split up and hit their separate underground

and what, did they have the bombs already with them or did they pick the bombs up somewhere in London? It's all a matter of logistics.

With the few trains the USA have, they can probably afford the luxury of searching train passengers similarly like air passengers. They should do it of course before, not after the trip. In Europe, that is impossible. Simple as that. Terrorists look for soft targets and trains are soft targets, like shopping centres ets. Impossie to screen.

It always comes back to the point that the only answer is police, secret service intelligence, monitoring and profiling. Not some low paid guys searching and harrassing people.

The real threat here is not from terrorists but from TSA agents touching personal items at random, possibly spreading bacteria and deseases.
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tu204
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:54 pm

Ofcourse it would make more sense to search the passengers before the train, not after. However, as some users pointed out, the train may not be the main target. A busy train station is much better of a hit. I don't know about American trains, but as far as Russian trains go, you need ALOT of explosive to kill people with a bomb that explodes inside the train. I'm talking like way more than 5kg of TNT and even then you will get 10-15 people max. However that same bomb detonates in a train station? You get something like Domodedovo a month ago.
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Quokka
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:19 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
That's like the old joke about the guy who committed suicide by throwing himself behind a train.

   After all the events of the past few days your humorous post is very welcome.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:29 pm

Quoting Tu204 (Reply 8):
Ofcourse it would make more sense to search the passengers before the train, not after. However, as some users pointed out, the train may not be the main target. A busy train station is much better of a hit. I don't know about American trains, but as far as Russian trains go, you need ALOT of explosive to kill people with a bomb that explodes inside the train. I'm talking like way more than 5kg of TNT and even then you will get 10-15 people max. However that same bomb detonates in a train station? You get something like Domodedovo a month ago.

Remember Madrid? While it takes quite a bit of explosives a nail bomb of a few kgs hidden in a rucksack or suitcase, exploded in a full commuter train, which is just stopped in a main station during rush hour, will kill a lot of people. Or those clowns (now serving life terms) who placed suitcases with explosives, nails and LPG cylinders on board of two commuter trains. The only reason why there wasn´t a massacre was because the fuzes didn´t work.

But on the other hand, it is practically impossible to screen commuter trains during rush hour. So all the TSA stuff is just feel good stuff made up by politicians to be seen as doing something.

Jan
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Flighty
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:33 pm

Long after the TSA was in full swing, it was possible to take large suitcases -- unsearched -- aboard NY Subway or DC Metro.

It's about jobs, not safety. If people want to cause mayhem, they will.

It is still legal in the US to buy assault weapons whose purpose is to conduct a massacre. I'm not convinced Americans are concerned about safety at all. They just want jobs... and wars, occasionally.
 
mandala499
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:46 pm

It takes.... >59 seconds to wand through the woman on the left????????
Geeez.... talking about too damn slow! That kind of thing should take 15-30 secs! I mean at 1 terminal I visit often, I get wanded in 15-20secs and they never miss out on whatever metal is on me...

*shakes his head*
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DocLightning
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:21 pm

The idea of searching someone LEAVING a station violates the 4th Amendment. You may place a condition on boarding a train, but not on walking onto the street.
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flanker
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:32 pm

I have taken Amtrak plenty of times in the last year and I have not seen any searches out of Union Station in Chicago.

Only dogs sniffing around bags.
 
N867DA
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:30 pm

People can bomb malls, trains, post offices, busy traffic intersections, apartments...the world can be a dangerous place. Where do we draw the line? Are we going to have to eventually go through government porno-scanners to use our own cars?

I'm disappointed that people are willing to give up so much for the guise of "security".
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Maverick623
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:21 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The idea of searching someone LEAVING a station violates the 4th Amendment. You may place a condition on boarding a train, but not on walking onto the street.

Their technically being searched while still in the station (a supposed "sterile area"), so where they're headed is irrelevant in the eyes of TSA.

That being said, I think the whole idea of such a search while boarding a train violates the 1st, 4th, 10th, and 14th Amendments.

Quoting flanker (Reply 14):

Only dogs sniffing around bags.

Just like the rest of the security theater: effective for stopping amateurs, useless against the pros.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 15):
Are we going to have to eventually go through government porno-scanners to use our own cars?

The issue is not pornography or people getting off to an outline of your body, but one of control. Today, the US security complex and laws look more like something out of the Soviet Union than the idealized "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" line the old-school conservatives touted.

"Land of the Subjects, Home of the Fearful"
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hOMSaR
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:24 am

Part of the absurdity of this is the location. Savannah, GA, has a couple of trains per day in each direction. It is not a connecting point where passengers would get off one train and go to another. There is no local rail service in Savannah. I'm not even sure if there is a transit bus that serves the station there. The station itself is far from "busy" by any stretch of the imagination. You'll get maybe 20-30 people boarding or alighting each of the trains that travels through there.

Train stations are not "sterile" areas, as anyone can pretty much walk anywhere. You can walk from the parking lot to the boarding platform without even going through the station in this case (as with many train stations in the US). Tickets (or even ID) are not required to be in the station. If nothing else, you can go to the road crossing a block down and walk along the tracks to the station platform. Technically illegal, as it's tresspassing (railroad right of way is private property), but not secure in any way.

So, the folks ride the train down, and get wanded before they're allowed to go to the parking lot to get their car or taxi.

This security theater accomplishes nothing. Another person noted the dogs at Chicago Union Station: Those actually provide considerably greater security than these phony metal detector wands, because the dogs are trained to sniff explosive materials, and will detect them much better than a metal detector will.
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cainanuk
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:12 am

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety..."

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DocLightning
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:37 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):

Their technically being searched while still in the station (a supposed "sterile area"), so where they're headed is irrelevant in the eyes of TSA.

No, it is not irrelevant. Saying that you need to go through this search in order to go onto the street is not constitutional by any stretch.
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Maverick623
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:13 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Saying that you need to go through this search in order to go onto the street is not constitutional by any stretch.

Doc, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Call it playing the Devil's Advocate, but the "justification" is that since they're in the train station, they are subject to a search. Where they're headed or are about to enter is irrelevant in they eyes of the TSA.

Believe me, I want TSA out of train stations as much as I want them out of airports
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hOMSaR
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:32 am

Follow-up on this story:

http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/188504/2059127.aspx

Amtrak Police are also angry over the incident.
I was raised by a cup of coffee.
 
steeler83
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:25 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 15):
Are we going to have to eventually go through government porno-scanners to use our own cars?

Or how about to step outside for that matter?

Quoting cainanuk (Reply 18):
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety..."

-Benjamin Franklin

... So that's why the ground is moving... Benjamin Franklin is turning in his sleep!

Amen!
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DocLightning
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:02 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):

Doc, I agree wholeheartedly with you. Call it playing the Devil's Advocate, but the "justification" is that since they're in the train station, they are subject to a search. Where they're headed or are about to enter is irrelevant in they eyes of the TSA.

It is not irrelevant at all. Case law has found that a search may be required as a condition to enter certain forms of conveyance and certain public buildings (like most courthouses, the Capitol, etc.). However, walking on the street is considered sacrosanct by tradition in almost all Western legal systems. Requiring a search to walk on the street is a blatant violation of the 4th Amendment. The family may have waived their 4th amendment rights to board the train, but not to disembark.

Furthermore, there is no rational justification for the search. The job of the TSA is to keep terrorists from bombing the train and the station. Searching people leaving the station accomplishes neither.
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Cadet985
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:22 am

Quoting homsar (Thread starter):
One detail that's different from most TSA searches...the passengers had just gotten OFF the train.

So if I'm getting off an Amtrak train, and do not consent to a search, what are they going to do, put me back on the train?

Marc
 
Glom
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RE: TSA Lunacy Spreads To Trains

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:02 pm

Quoting signol (Reply 6):
Didn't the London bombers travel from the north of England on trains, then split up and hit their separate underground train / bus targets?

They were all tube targets. The one who blew up the bus was forced to taking alternative action because he was foiled by the most powerful anti-terrorist device in existence: a failed signal on the Northern line leading to its suspension.

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