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DocLightning
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:49 am

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 96):

Well you say it is not true but they say it is true. This from 3 friends of mine who are doctors

Well they can blow it out their ears. I also happen to be a doctor and, unlike them, I happen to be up on the research on the topic.

The American Academy of Pediatrics formally does not recommend routine infant circumcision because the benefits do not outweigh the risks.
The American Urological Association formally does not recommend routine infant circumcision because the benefits do not outweigh the risks.

Two professional associations of physicians who are experts on the subject agree. They both reviewed the evidence and these are their recommendations. I'm a Fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics and I have read their position statement and their logic is absolutely unassailable. The studies showing a benefit to circumcision are of questionable quality and the effects are miniscule.

I look forward to a world in which all children will be born and nobody will try to alter their genitals.
-Doc Lightning-

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Superfly
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:01 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 97):

Ok so what if your son decides that he wants his foreskin back when he is adult?
He can't get it back.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 91):
put forward your own feelings on this matter,

Isn't that the point of a discussion?  
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 92):
The parents are not the people who are on the receiving end of this unnecessary treatment , the infant is .

Exactly!

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 92):
If someone wants to have an unnecessary procedure carried out on themselves as an adult let them do it

  
My thoughts exactly!

Quoting gemuser (Reply 97):
It's the parents who are responsible, BECAUSE the child is incapable.

Ok so why not chop off your newborns hands to prevent him from fighting when he get's older?
It's the same logic.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:04 am

Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 61):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 59):
About Muslims, don't they do it at around 8 ?

No. It's usually done within the first few months after birth.

depends on the community. E.g. the Turkish in Germany usually do it when the boy is around 6-8 years old and it is celebrated as a big party (with the boy, who is usually dressed up in a fancy uniform being led brought to a side room for the procedure inbetween).

Jan
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Gemuser
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:55 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 101):
Ok so why not chop off your newborns hands to prevent him from fighting when he get's older?

Because that is clearly to the child's harm, for the subject under discussion, the harm is debatable.

Not saying I support or don't support it, but it is the parents responsibility.

Gemuser
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Superfly
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:44 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 103):
Because that is clearly to the child's harm, for the subject under discussion, the harm is debatable.

If you've ever seen this operation taken place there is not doubt that it causes great harm.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 103):
but it is the parents responsibility.

Luckily that attitude is dying since the momentum is moving in favor of abolishing this procedure on newborns. Good for San Francisco!
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SOBHI51
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:16 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 104):
If you've ever seen this operation taken place there is not doubt that it causes great harm.


I saw it twice, the baby did not even cry, otherwise i would not allowed it to happen. Now that was over 26 years ago, at that time and maybe till now people were under the impression that this was a healthy operation.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
Starbuk7
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:09 pm

I know two people right now that wish they would have had the procedure done to them when they were infants. They would love to have it done now but they are older and do not want to go through the pain whil in their 50's.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 106):
They would love to have it done now but they are older and do not want to go through the pain whil in their 50's.

And for those 2, I know over 10 guys my age that want their foreskins back.

Aeroflot777
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:36 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 101):
Isn't that the point of a discussion?  

Sure it is, but you have repeatedly ignored questions asked of you. Not surprising, because answering them would blow a whole in your argument, but so be it. But if that's the game you want to play, it shall be done.

-DiamondFlyer
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TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:38 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 106):
I know two people right now that wish they would have had the procedure done to them when they were infants. They would love to have it done now but they are older and do not want to go through the pain while in their 50's.

What are their specific reasons for wanting to get circumcised? Especially now, when they are in their 50s?
(I can hazard a couple of guesses, but I'll refrain from conjecture at this point)

They are adults. They can choose to have it done or not to have it done, but it is their choice. That choice is available to them precisely because they weren't circumcised as infants. Also, they've had 50+ years each to weigh the pros and cons of being intact, and apparently the downside(s?) of remaining intact are still not worth a few weeks of pain during which their urologist will prescribe them very good painkillers.
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Starbuk7
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:22 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 109):
What are their specific reasons for wanting to get circumcised?


They say that it is becoming a problem at this stage of their lives and I don't know the specifics but I would take the word of someone who has one and wants it gone vice someone who never had one and does not know what having one is like.
 
TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 110):
They say that it is becoming a problem at this stage of their lives and I don't know the specifics

Maybe I'm unusually nosy, but if someone in their 50s told me they wanted to get circumcised and said that their foreskin was "becoming a problem", I'd have to ask "How?". Heck, nothing could have stopped me from asking for specifics after an announcement like that.

Also,

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 110):
They say that it is becoming a problem at this stage of their lives

implies that having a foreskin has not been a problem for them until relatively recently.

So in summation, these two guys have had their foreskins for 50+ years each, and now their foreskins are "becoming a problem at this stage of their lives", but they're not enough of a problem that either of them have made the decision* to have said foreskins removed because they'd have to endure a few weeks of discomfort (with pain medication).
*It is their decision to make, not anyone else's.

I reiterate, they are adults and have a choice in the matter; this is not the case with newborns.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 107):
Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 106):
They would love to have it done now but they are older and do not want to go through the pain whil in their 50's.

And for those 2, I know over 10 guys my age that want their foreskins back.

Same here, and I'm a lot closer to 50 than you are, Aeroflot.
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Starbuk7
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:01 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 111):
I'd have to ask "How?".

Health reasons, and they have been thinking about it for 20 to 30 years now, so no, you assumptions are wrong.

I have been circumcised all my life and I have to agree with everything Aaron747 has said after all my time in Asia and Austrailia. And after watching porn I find that circumcised penises are more astecitally pleasing to view that non circumcised.
 
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Tugger
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:34 pm

OK, here's the truth of the matter: People want their children to look like them.

Period. That's it.

And since it is done before a child even knows what is going on, it will be perpetuated by people for a long time to come. Reason doesn't always work and especially when it comes to men that want their sons to "look like them".

That is the whole reason that there is an issue at all. If there were two generations of boys/men that were not circumsized, the procedure as a regular, accepted "norm" would end and only be done in cases of religious requirement (except that people would likely realize that it is wholly unnecessary act that takes away something that is harmless). As it is the procedure already is declining in numbers, slowly.

Tugg
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fr8mech
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:02 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 113):

OK, here's the truth of the matter: People want their children to look like them.

I'm not cut, yet my son is. Blows that theory out of the water, doesn't it?
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Tugger
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 114):
I'm not cut, yet my son is. Blows that theory out of the water, doesn't it?

Yes, I understand it does on that level, but not for what my intent was. I was not clear in that my comment was on why there is a controversy at all. The fact that you had a reason (personal or otherwise) for doing so is just part of the story. The truth is circumcision is declining.

My comment really was about the reason that there is any discussion that supports circumcision as a "norm" and being the right thing to do when there is no reason for it. The only real reasons currently are religious, a tiny fraction of cases where it is medically called for, and because a lot of people want their kids to look like them (or sometimes it is so they will "look normal"). If I may be so bold, can you state the reason for the decision?

Though I made a blanket statement we all know that there are always exceptions. Just consider yourself exceptional! 

Tugg


Edited to correct and clarify.

[Edited 2011-03-09 13:42:18]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 114):

I'm not cut, yet my son is. Blows that theory out of the water, doesn't it?

Not really. There are always deviations from the norm. But as a generalization, parent's bring up kids in their own likeness, much like kids (usually) strive to be like their parents.
 
TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 112):
Quoting TSS (Reply 111):
I'd have to ask "How?".

Health reasons, and they have been thinking about it for 20 to 30 years now,

That makes me wonder which specific health reasons might be a factor that would be ongoing for 20 to 30 years, but still not a big enough irritant or threat to overall health that neither of them would have had themselves circumcised yet. Right off hand the only possibility I can think of is complications of diabetes, but perhaps Doc Lightning will chime in with other possibilities.

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 112):
so no, you assumptions are wrong.

What assumptions?

Quoting TSS (Reply 109):
They are adults.


Fact.

Quoting TSS (Reply 109):
They can choose to have it done or not to have it done, but it is their choice.


Fact.

Quoting TSS (Reply 109):
That choice is available to them precisely because they weren't circumcised as infants.

Fact.

Quoting TSS (Reply 109):
Also, they've had 50+ years each to weigh the pros and cons of being intact, and apparently the downside(s?) of remaining intact are still not worth a few weeks of pain during which their urologist will prescribe them very good painkillers.

Logical conclusion based on information presented.

Quoting TSS (Reply 111):
Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 110):
They say that it is becoming a problem at this stage of their lives

implies that having a foreskin has not been a problem for them until relatively recently.

So in summation, these two guys have had their foreskins for 50+ years each, and now their foreskins are "becoming a problem at this stage of their lives", but they're not enough of a problem that either of them have made the decision* to have said foreskins removed because they'd have to endure a few weeks of discomfort (with pain medication).

Restatement of logical conclusion from reply #109.

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 112):
I have been circumcised all my life and I have to agree with everything Aaron747 has said after all my time in Asia and Australia.

Acknowledged. I couldn't find anything to argue with in his posts, and I do appreciate his sense of humor.

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 112):
And after watching porn I find that circumcised penises are more aesthetically pleasing to view than non circumcised.

Well... I have two thoughts on that.
1. That's your own personal preference.
2. You may not have seen what you thought you saw in every adult film you've watched. To the untrained eye, quite a few intact guys can pass for circumcised when fully aroused. This is particularly true in film. A good example of this phenomenon can be seen in actor Colin Farrell's much-publicized "sex tape".
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Curtisman
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:29 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 100):
Well they can blow it out their ears. I also happen to be a doctor and, unlike them, I happen to be up on the research on the topic.

I have no idea why you think you know that they are not up on the subject - but I'm not going to argue with you - you're wrong. Please stop making comments by telling them to blow it out their ear. I have not been rude to you and there is no need for statements like this.

I do appreciate your comments and especially appreciate the fact that you are a doctor with good insight into the topic being a pediatrician. As I continue to read up on the topic online I see the debate is out there - and there is no fully conclusive evidence for either side of the debate.

To continue in this thread I would add that my personal choice if I had a baby boy would be to have him circumcised. My primary reason would be for health benefits and as a parent of a baby (I'm not - I'm saying if) I am responsible for making the best choices for his life. I do believe the procedure can be painful but the more I read the more I find that modern procedures can make this procedure quite painless.

[Edited 2011-03-09 15:40:14]
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TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:37 pm

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 118):
I do believe the procedure can be painful but the more I read the more I find that modern procedures can make this procedure quite painless.

To which "modern procedures" are you referring?
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Tugger
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:43 pm

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 118):
To continue in this thread I would add that my personal choice if I had a baby boy would be to have him circumcised. My primary reason would be for health benefits and as a parent of a baby (I'm not - I'm saying if) I am responsible for making the best choices for his life. I do believe the procedure can be painful but the more I read the more I find that modern procedures can make this procedure quite painless.

And I will bet that you too are circumsized, so why not do it to you son?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Curtisman
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:50 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 119):
To which "modern procedures" are you referring?

Here are a couple of links - the 4th link down describes the laser method of circumcision. Perhaps the painless part in some of the comments I read were referring to the pain masking drugs hehehe - no clue.


http://www.circumcisioncalgary.ca/more.htm
http://www.pollockclinics.com/circumcision/circumcision-index.html
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/b...cumcision_surgical_procedures?open
http://urologycentre.com.sg/circumcision.html
http://www.circumcision.net/Painless.htm

I'm sure there are more - I simply did not keep track of all the websites I was visiting.
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Curtisman
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 120):
And I will bet that you too are circumsized, so why not do it to you son?


You bet! That is one of the reasons as well.

I will also comment as was commented above. Aesthetics plays a factor for me too. We all have our preferences whether it is facial hair or not, long finger nails or short finger nails, light hair or dark hair, etc. etc.

 

[Edited 2011-03-09 16:06:01]
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TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 121):
http://www.circumcisioncalgary.ca/more.htm

Mogen clamp.

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 121):
http://www.pollockclinics.com/circumcision/circumcision-index.html

Also Mogen clamp.

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 121):
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/b...cumcision_surgical_procedures?open

A reasonably well-balanced presentation of the pros and cons of circumcision in general.

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 121):
http://urologycentre.com.sg/circumcision.html
Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 121):
the 4th link down describes the laser method of circumcision.

I'm not so sure a laser is the way to go. At one point it was thought that essentially the same effect could be achieved by using an electro-cautery device for circumcisions, but the case of David Reimer vividly illustrated the potential problems with that particular method.

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 121):
http://www.circumcision.net/Painless.htm

A rather biased website promoting ritual circumcision using the Mogen clamp.

Here's a link comparing the observed associated pain in infants circumcised with the Mogen clamp versus the much more common Gomco clamp, both with and without DPNB (Dorsal Penile Nerve Block) for pain management.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/103/2/e23

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 122):
My brother is not - and wishes he was - he's considering it.

And again, the choice is his to make. Going by your age, can I reasonably assume that your brother is over the age of 18?
Has he stated why he wishes he was circumcised?
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Superfly
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:26 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 108):
Sure it is, but you have repeatedly ignored questions asked of you. Not surprising, because answering them would blow a whole in your argument, but so be it. But if that's the game you want to play, it shall be done.

What question? Everything I've stated has been on topic. Most here seem to agree with me but yet my comments have made you come unglued.
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Curtisman
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 123):
Has he stated why he wishes he was circumcised?

I actually deleted that line from my post as I realized after posting I typed brother but it is my cousin.

He is 41... so I just rang him to inform him of this thread and ask him why he is considering circumcision LOL.

He had 2 comments:

1) "Less fuss and circumcised guys are more sensitive."
2) "Too many chicks prefer the circumcised guys looks."

Those are his statements - I'm just relaying the message - the only change was I put in the word circumcised in his quotes where he used a slang term hehehe.

Not saying I agree or disagree with him - just replying to your query.

Cheers!
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 124):
What question? Everything I've stated has been on topic. Most here seem to agree with me but yet my comments have made you come unglued

See here:

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
So then, naturally, you're against abortion as well, since the baby has no choice in that matter either?

Which was in response to

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
You're missing one important factor. The baby himself. He has no choice.

I asked it multiple times and never got the answer.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
imiakhtar
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:31 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 102):
the Turkish in Germany usually do it when the boy is around 6-8 years old

I wasn't aware of that. Seems to be a case of culture taking precedence over religion. The vast majority of Islamic scholars do agree however that a healthy male be circumcised in the first 12 months.
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TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 125):
He is 41... so I just rang him to inform him of this thread and ask him why he is considering circumcision LOL.

He had 2 comments:

1) "Less fuss and circumcised guys are more sensitive."
2) "Too many chicks prefer the circumcised guys looks."

Those are his statements - I'm just relaying the message - the only change was I put in the word circumcised in his quotes where he used a slang term hehehe.

Not saying I agree or disagree with him - just replying to your query.

No problem, thanks for your reply, and extra thanks for contacting him to find out his specific reasons. He may want to check out this link that lists and critiques the various studies that compare sensitivity between intact and circumcised men-
http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html
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Aeri28
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:04 am

I have not read most of these replys, but I continually try to figure out if the city I left 9 years ago and lived in for many years is just simply WACKY and should be retired to the asylum or if they really are on the cutting edge of what will come in the future as a society.

BUT, that said, a city should not be telling you how to raise your child. Simple as that. Whether you are for or against circumcision, where would it stop? Maybe SF will try to enact some law that you may not agree with, telling you how and how not to raise or make decisions on your own child. That crazy happy meal incident or the pet stores come to mind.

Oy. SF used to be such an interesting place. I may move back one day, but everytime I read something about SF these days....
 
TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:07 pm

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 129):
BUT, that said, a city should not be telling you how to raise your child.

From the linked article in the original post:
"If the ban is approved, those caught cutting the foreskins of infants and other minors would face up to a year in jail and up to $1,000 in fines."

All the proposed ban would do is extend this federal law to cover male genital mutilation as well as female-
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...me=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC116

Of particular relevance is Subsection C of the existing federal law:
"(c) In applying subsection (b)(1), no account shall be taken of the
effect on the person on whom the operation is to be performed of any
belief on the part of that person, or any other person, that the
operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual."
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acjflyer
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 17, 2011 1:45 pm

First of all I would like to know how many people on here that have been sharing their opinion so liberally were uncircumcised as an adult or young adult?

I ask because it sounds like a lot of the opinions oh here are very biased because they are either 1. Circumcised as a kid and thus feel passionate against it or 2.Still uncircumcised as an adult resulting in a very biased opinion as well.

SO...Let me tell you my opinion and where i am at on the matter and if anyone can relate please feel free to add your experiences.

I'm a 26 year old male that is uncircumcised BUT is meeting with the urologist on April 5th for an examination and to schedule the surgery. I have spent thousands of hours researching circumcision since I was a teenager and after all of this I have decided to look into getting it done.

I can tell you first hand as an american teen it was hell to be in gym class and be made fun of because you were the only one that was uncircumcised. I got so tired of having sexual partners be turned off by it and i am referring to the uncut penis. Genetics were kind to me when it comes to size and appearance but ti was the foreskin that freaked some of them out.

So after a lot of research and seeing some of the work of the urologist I have selected seeing his results in person from his past patients I have made the choice to move forward with it.

So please, unless you have seen both sides of the fence and have the need to look into both sides don't post like you know what you're talking about. It's offending to those of us that have to deal with on a positive and negative note.

The grass is always greener on the other side my friends.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 66):
I'm saying, these people who have posted multiple times, saying that the child in the case of circumcision has no choice, are the same ones who post in the abortion threads about how it should be the womans choice. Quite ironic, isn't it?

Excellent Point DiamondFlyer.
 
acjflyer
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:37 pm

I apologize for the few incorrectly spelled words and the grammatical errors. I was attempting to quickly finish my post before needing to run out the door.
 
TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:51 pm

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 131):
I'm a 26 year old male that is uncircumcised BUT is meeting with the urologist on April 5th for an examination and to schedule the surgery. I have spent thousands of hours researching circumcision since I was a teenager and after all of this I have decided to look into getting it done.

You're an adult well past the age of consent. It's your choice to make, not anyone else's.

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 131):
I can tell you first hand as an american teen it was hell to be in gym class and be made fun of because you were the only one that was uncircumcised.

This might be a bit late, but two very good responses to such taunting spring to mind:
1. "Dude, why are you looking at my junk?"
2. "Let me get this straight- You had part of your d*ck cut off and you're trying to make fun of me?"

Furthermore, being "the only one that was uncircumcised" is also a factor of where you grew up. In other parts of the US you wouldn't have been the only one, and in several places you'd have been in the majority. Outside the US, Israel, and predominantly Muslim countries, you'd absolutely be in the majority.

Should the ban on infant circumcisions in San Francisco go into effect, SF would have whole generations where a circumcised guy might be the only one that was circumcised in his entire gym class.

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 131):
I got so tired of having sexual partners be turned off by it and i am referring to the uncut penis. Genetics were kind to me when it comes to size and appearance but ti was the foreskin that freaked some of them out.

So after a lot of research and seeing some of the work of the urologist I have selected seeing his results in person from his past patients I have made the choice to move forward with it.

So please, unless you have seen both sides of the fence and have the need to look into both sides don't post like you know what you're talking about. It's offending to those of us that have to deal with on a positive and negative note.

The grass is always greener on the other side my friends.

So you, an adult, have made a personal decision to have cosmetic surgery performed on yourself in order to "fit in" and be "just like everyone else" in the area in which you grew up.

As I said before, you're an adult well past the age of consent. It's your choice to make, not anyone else's.

Here's a recent editorial from the British Medical Journal pointing out the double standard between male and female circumcision. Although a subscription is required to read the full text, the author makes his point in the first two paragraphs and the responses can be viewed without subscription-
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d978.extract

Here's a very well-researched article on the proposed circumcision ban from a relatively obscure source, the West Hollywood News-
http://wehonews.com/z/wehonews/archive/page.php?articleID=5802

[Edited 2011-03-17 08:52:53]
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acjflyer
Posts: 294
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:07 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 133):
So you, an adult, have made a personal decision to have cosmetic surgery performed on yourself in order to "fit in" and be "just like everyone else" in the area in which you grew up.

It's not about fitting in at this point. Your assumption was incorrect and premature. As a teen yes, that was the main motivation. Depending on where you attended high school you might be a bit hesitent to make such comments to guys. It would be a sure way to get the s*** beat out of you.

Quoting TSS (Reply 133):
Outside the US, Israel, and predominantly Muslim countries, you'd absolutely be in the majority.

Irrelevant seeing as I live in the United States. Stick to reasoning that applies to the situation, refrain from generalizations that don't apply.

Quoting TSS (Reply 133):
Should the ban on infant circumcisions in San Francisco go into effect, SF would have whole generations where a circumcised guy might be the only one that was circumcised in his entire gym class.

Once again, this argument doesn't help my situation seeing as that will take generations to occur. The US is a fairly large country. One city passing a bill such as this one would take decades at best for the entire country to adopt it, and even then a lot of Americans will continue to circumcise their children because that is how they grew up. Now before you jump on my back with some rebutal such as "America is becoming progressive, people are changing their mindsets, etc" Keep in mind that a lot of the states and cities in America are still very much behind the 'progressive' curve.

Quoting TSS (Reply 133):
You're an adult well past the age of consent. It's your choice to make, not anyone else's.

So was it my choice to be 7 years old strapped down on the doctors table as they tore my foreskin back because my father didn't teach me what the hell to do with it as I developed? To this day I can still vividly see that day in my head. From the nurse holding my ankles to my father covering my mouth as i was screaming I can remember every second of that procedure.

So you tell me what is worse? I can remember every detail at the age of 7 and my older brothers that were circumcised when they were born don't remember anything.

Perhaps there is more brutality and barbaric measures in what happened to me than a newborn being circumcised.

Yes my father could have taught me better but I was the first child he decided not to circumcise because he was talked into it by some naturalistic doctor. Four brothers before me didn't have to experience what I did at the doctors office because they took part in the "barbaric and brutal" act of infant circumcision. Hmmm....

So yet again - unless you have experienced it please understand that perhaps it is not as black and white as you think.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:40 pm

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 134):

So was it my choice to be 7 years old strapped down on the doctors table as they tore my foreskin back because my father didn't teach me what the hell to do with it as I developed?

Wait wait wait. WHY? Why on earth would any healthcare professional forcibly retract a child's foreskin? It is NOT NECESSARY.

My advice to parents of uncircumcised boys is: "LEAVE HIS PENIS ALONE." Foreskins in prepubertal boys often do not retract. At puberty, they tend to loosen up. Furthermore, at puberty the boy will start spending large amounts of time every single day withdrawing his foreskin (often with the assistance of a "Victoria's Secret" catalog) without anyone needing to tell him to do it.

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 131):

I'm a 26 year old male that is uncircumcised BUT is meeting with the urologist on April 5th for an examination and to schedule the surgery. I have spent thousands of hours researching circumcision since I was a teenager and after all of this I have decided to look into getting it done.

Speaking to you as a man who has had to have a surgical procedure on that particular body part:
ARE YOU F*CKING KIDDING ME? Every time you get an erection you will be in pain. It happens a lot at night and you will sit bolt upright in bed in agony.

Dude, man-to-man, my advice is to keep all sharp objects away from your penis.

Quoting CurtisMan (Reply 118):
I have no idea why you think you know that they are not up on the subject - but I'm not going to argue with you - you're wrong.

No, actually, I'm right. I have a stack of literature sitting next to me with NNT calculations that prove I'm right.

There is no health benefit of circumcision with an NNT lower than 77. That's 77 circumcisions to prevent one adverse event.

Do you happen to know what the complication rate of circumcision is? About 30% (mostly adhesions). So it takes 3 circumcisions to harm one patient. But 77 (minimum) to help.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Curtisman
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:37 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 135):
No, actually, I'm right. I have a stack of literature sitting next to me with NNT calculations that prove I'm right.

Ahhh my good dr. - I was not referring to you being wrong about the topic at hand - as I've mentioned - there are numerous arguments to both sides. You have your studies you are referring to and they have theirs. They agree that there are argument to both sides but it is their professional and studied opinion that they prefer circumcision due to less complications and health issues as adults. Their opinion is theirs and yours is yours so it's all good. They are extremely good doctors who have practiced and trained internationally so I am sure they have take many studies into consideration.

I was referring to your comment about my dr. friends not being up on the subject- and about that - you are wrong.

They are very knowledgeable about the subject and make excellent determinations based on research and experience in their respective fields. They don't claim to be the know all and end all but they do have their opinions.

[Edited 2011-03-17 18:37:42]
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TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 135):
Quoting acjflyer (Reply 134):

So was it my choice to be 7 years old strapped down on the doctors table as they tore my foreskin back because my father didn't teach me what the hell to do with it as I developed?

Wait wait wait. WHY? Why on earth would any healthcare professional forcibly retract a child's foreskin? It is NOT NECESSARY.

My advice to parents of uncircumcised boys is: "LEAVE HIS PENIS ALONE." Foreskins in prepubertal boys often do not retract. At puberty, they tend to loosen up. Furthermore, at puberty the boy will start spending large amounts of time every single day withdrawing his foreskin (often with the assistance of a "Victoria's Secret" catalog) without anyone needing to tell him to do it.

DocLightning beat me to it: Forced retraction of a child's foreskin is not necessary, especially not for "cleaning". If you want to blame someone for your having to endure an extremely painful* and wholly unnecessary procedure at age 7, blame the ignorant doctor who performed said procedure because he was unaware of normal human male development.

*I have heard the pain of forced foreskin retraction compared more than once to the pain of peeling a fingernail all the way off it's nail bed, but that comparison is anecdotal and not drawn from my personal experience.
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lewis
Posts: 3586
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:44 am

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 134):
So was it my choice to be 7 years old strapped down on the doctors table as they tore my foreskin back because my father didn't teach me what the hell to do with it as I developed? To this day I can still vividly see that day in my head. From the nurse holding my ankles to my father covering my mouth as i was screaming I can remember every second of that procedure.

Wow, that sounds painful and for some reason very unfamiliar as a problem/procedure. Coming from a predominantly uncircumcised country (and continent), I have never heard of such a thing happening to anyone. I am no doctor so I am unaware of why this problem may arise and its frequency among the male population. Definitely doesn't ring a bell.
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Fri Mar 18, 2011 7:02 am

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 131):
I'm a 26 year old male that is uncircumcised BUT is meeting with the urologist on April 5th for an examination and to schedule the surgery. I have spent thousands of hours researching circumcision since I was a teenager and after all of this I have decided to look into getting it done.

Cool! Which is why the point is... You are now old enough to make the decision for yourself, and you are doing so.

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 131):
I can tell you first hand as an american teen it was hell to be in gym class and be made fun of because you were the only one that was uncircumcised. I got so tired of having sexual partners be turned off by it and i am referring to the uncut penis. Genetics were kind to me when it comes to size and appearance but ti was the foreskin that freaked some of them out.

So from this story of yours it seems like you are doing it to be part of the larger crowd. Getting teased in gym class has nothing to do with your foreskin - those kids are uneducated and naive.

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 134):
So was it my choice to be 7 years old strapped down on the doctors table as they tore my foreskin back because my father didn't teach me what the hell to do with it as I developed? To this day I can still vividly see that day in my head. From the nurse holding my ankles to my father covering my mouth as i was screaming I can remember every second of that procedure.

What on earth did you just describe? I have never heard of this happening, EVER. Nor did I have problems retracting my foreskin throughout the years. Why was someone doing this to you? Also... my dad never told me to retract my foreskin either, what am I missing?
 
Superfly
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:16 pm

Quoting acjflyer (Reply 134):
It's not about fitting in at this point. Your assumption was incorrect and premature. As a teen yes, that was the main motivation. Depending on where you attended high school you might be a bit hesitent to make such comments to guys. It would be a sure way to get the s*** beat out of you.

  
OK I'm gonna have to call B.S. on this.
I have never ever heard of guys making fun or even commenting on another dudes package in a gym.
This story sounds so 'made up' simply to justify forced circumcision on a newborn.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 139):
Cool! Which is why the point is... You are now old enough to make the decision for yourself, and you are doing so.

...and that's the way is should be done!
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lewis
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 139):
What on earth did you just describe? I have never heard of this happening, EVER. Nor did I have problems retracting my foreskin throughout the years. Why was someone doing this to you? Also... my dad never told me to retract my foreskin either, what am I missing?

I didn't exactly get what the problem is either, but I understand it has to do witht he foreskin, I have never met one person in my life or even heard about anyone having problems with their foreskin, I am curious too!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:58 am

Quoting curtisman (Reply 136):

Ahhh my good dr. - I was not referring to you being wrong about the topic at hand - as I've mentioned - there are numerous arguments to both sides. You have your studies you are referring to and they have theirs. They agree that there are argument to both sides but it is their professional and studied opinion that they prefer circumcision due to less complications and health issues as adults.

And they are WRONG. End of argument.

There are ZERO well-done, peer-reviewed studies to support that claim.

Are they going to claim that the grass is blue and the sky is green next?
-Doc Lightning-

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Curtisman
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 142):
And they are WRONG. End of argument.

Oh no argument here - not at all actually... just enjoying some good chat. I respect the posts you have throughout this site and actually would enjoy meeting you some day! Maybe at an SFO meet sometime. You seem like a really good guy.

I am asking you to not say 'end of argument' again - it makes you look like you think you're a know it all and I'm sure you do realize that you are human and make mistakes - and in this case - you are WRONG. These doctors know full well what they are talking about and they are not wrong. They have their vast years of experience and have all attended excellent schools of medicine. If the world experts cannot agree on this topic then surely you are not going to say you are the absolute world expert and that only your decision is the correct one. As I mentioned, you have an opinion and so do many others.

Oh - if we ever meet at a 'meet' - I think we should stay away from this subject LOL. All the chat going on here sure makes it seem like a political or religion type of topic hehehehehe.

Cheers All!
 
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TSS
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RE: SF To Cut Out The 'snip'?

Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting curtisman (Reply 143):
These doctors know full well what they are talking about and they are not wrong. They have their vast years of experience and have all attended excellent schools of medicine.

Just out of curiosity, how much money do these doctors make per circumcision performed, and how many circumcisions do they perform in an average week?

Quoting curtisman (Reply 143):
If the world experts cannot agree on this topic then surely you are not going to say you are the absolute world expert and that only your decision is the correct one.

Actually, I was under the impression that the only "world experts" arguing in favor of routine infant circumcision are the ones from countries where it is already commonplace and a reliable source of income for both doctors and hospitals.
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