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NAV20
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:03 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 149):
Hard to say actually. The US certainly seem to be the most active one in the battle...

They've got more people and materiel than anyone else in the West. What beats me, though, is that they still only have relatively-small peacetime armed forces. As Iraq showed, that's enough to defeat less well-equipped armies; but nowhere near enough to occupy the place.

That lesson was learned way back in the 1950s. Just occupying West Germany in face of the Russians required half-a-million men 'on station' all the time. Which, allowing for 'R and R,' training, etc., meant at least twice that number 'in the ranks' at any one time. The USA, Britain, and France had to keep conscription in place right up to 1958 just to provide enough people to do that.

'Invading and defeating' people is one thing. But occupying them over a long period is different - and much more 'labour-intensive.' The 'Western' armies, all put together, can't cope with Iraq and Afghanistan even now (not a reflection on the blokes, they just don't have the manpower). There is no possibility at all that the powers-that-be dare add Lybia to that list, they just don't have the people........

[Edited 2011-03-20 05:21:57]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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par13del
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 150):
What beats me, though, is that they still only have relatively-small peacetime armed forces. As Iraq showed, that's enough to defeat less well-equipped armies; but nowhere near enough to occupy the place.

In the history of the US they have never been a colonial power, indeed if one looks at their constitution it essentially prevents them from implementing laws and forms of government like the colonial system used by the English for example, won't debate whether that is good or bad. Even in their dependancies like Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and others they are essentially self ruled and can vote to become independent if they want to, Puerto Rico recently rejected the option. How quickly did they return Germany and Japan to their citizens and did they not always say that was their intention, remember that they were never in agreement with the stringent conditions imposed on Germany after WWI.

In such an environment, why would they need peace time occupation forces, even in Iraq, they have stated from day one that their intention was to turn over the running of the country to the Iraq people, the same with Afghanistan, after a couple hundreds years of this form of government not sure they could get the average man on the street to change their constitution to allow the necessary curbs of civil rights and access to courts systems to allow colonization, but this is probably for another thread.
 
baroque
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:15 pm

Quoting scrubbsywg (Reply 127):
Throughout the egyptian and libyan crises, AJ has had messages like that either scrolling the screen or on the live stream page. I'm not sure if anything is different today from 3 weeks ago. Someone is apparently jamming AJ in those areas, and I reckon it is Libya.

Thanks for that information. It would be interesting then if the jammers suddenly go quiet in the next week!

As to an occupation force, I imagine the theory is that the rebels are a de facto invasion force except they did not have to invade.

If (IF) the politics of sorting out the rebellion can be sorted out, they could act as the ground arm. When Herr Meier was bombing Nav20, me and a few others, he did not have major support base already in country. Far from it. In the case of Libya, provided the politics can be managed, the bombing force should have an advantage that I cannot recall for any group attacking a country by aerial means, not even the Malaya emergency??

So perhaps the past might not be all that good a guide to Libya 2011. One hopes so as the past does not give grounds for that much optimism.
 
Mortyman
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:47 pm

Wikipedia is moving fast...


Libyan no-fly zone:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_no-fly_zone

International reactions to the 2011 Libyan uprising:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...ctions_to_the_2011_Libyan_uprising

2011 Libyan uprising:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Libyan_uprising
 
ronglimeng
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:56 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 152):
When Herr Meier was bombing Nav20, me and a few others

I'll have to assume that you were at a very young age and weren't shooting back if you were bombed by Herr Meier (you may have to explain that reference for younger readers)!!!

As far as these rebel forces go, I haven't seen anything on TV or in the papers except for emotional young men in civilian dress dangerously firing off rounds into the air in celebration.

Does anyone have a media source that provides a better appreciation of what is up against Kadhafi's people on the ground?
 
baroque
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 154):
I'll have to assume that you were at a very young age and weren't shooting back if you were bombed by Herr Meier (you may have to explain that reference for younger readers)!!!

Indeed I was a tad young to be shooting back, but does that make a difference to the observation that in the UK in 1940 there would have been very few on the ground ready to support the attacking forces? Herr Meier is easily found, but it was a name Goering gave to himself as he assured folk that Germany would never be bombed. It seems a useful name to dredge out of the archives in the context of a similarly deluded Col Gaddafi. Mind you, one thing that may not be one of his delusions, would be his (Gaddafi's) ability to cause mischief in the Mediterranean area and perhaps wider than that.

As to who the rebels are, very interesting question. Perhaps we had all best rush off to ask Sarkozy as he must know who it is he has recognised. Some links reporting this event are what you might call less than helpful with the specifics such as.
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2011/s3161057.htm

The best on specifics that I can find is:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5bfb98b0-52fd-11e0-86e6-00144feab49a.html

The opposition’s disorganisation and lack of clear leadership structures has been at its most conspicuous with its fighting forces. Army, air force, and naval personnel defected to the opposition, but their strength and capacity, as well as who led them, has often been unclear. ..... ....defected army units, officers said, supported them with arms and some volunteer officers, but there was no mass movement of the professional soldiers as army officers spoke of shoring up the defences of territory under opposition control.

A military council under the national council, was set up to co-ordinate security matters, headed by Omar Hariri, who was involved in the 1969 coup that brought Col Gaddafi to power..... His prominence rose after Libyan state television broadcast a tape of what it purported was a telephone conversation between him and the US ambassador.

Another key figure on the opposition’s military front is General Abdul Fatah Younis. .......some Libyans are still wary of his true loyalties. As the regime forces moved eastwards towards Benghazi, the army appeared to take on a more active role.
 
TheCol
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:27 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 139):
that bombing without subsequent occupation doesn't achieve anything in military terms. All it does is kill or 'de-house' a lot of civilians.

If I understand correctly, the idea is to let the rebels deal with the ground war. They seem to be well organized enough.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 140):
why couldn't we just cut off Libya from the outside world as to access to financial markets, banking

We did that already. But we cannot stop Gaddafi from doing business with Russia, China, and his fellow dictators in the African Union.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 141):
communications as well as a sea an air embargo.

There would have to be some sort of military action against Gaddafi's defenses to make that happen.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 153):
International reactions to the 2011 Libyan uprising:

I'm surprised enough countries took it upon themselves to back the UN resolution. It seems that Russia, China, and their entourage are the only countries dead against it.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
NAV20
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:04 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 156):
If I understand correctly, the idea is to let the rebels deal with the ground war. They seem to be well organized enough.

If that really is the assumption the Pentagon planners are working on, TheCol, all I can say is - 'They couldn't be more wrong.' In open country, 'Irregulars' couldn't hold for five minutes against people who've had even a minimum amount of training in any sort of 'proper' army......

[Edited 2011-03-20 09:07:45]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Curtisman
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:13 pm

I'm listening to CBC News and they are now talking about the Arab League saying "This is not what they had in mind when they called for a no-fly zone".
Citizen of the World
 
11Bravo
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:14 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 156):
They seem to be well organized enough.

Seems more like an armed mob to me. What I've seen is a few pickups with HMGs in the bed and a bunch of guys in track suits shooting AKs in the air. There was footage a week ago of some dudes with a mortar (120mm). They were dropping rounds somewhere, but the tube didn't even have its sight unit attached. That's just wasteful and stupid.
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11Bravo
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:08 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 148):
As said above. USA isn't the lead in the operation.

That is the plan so I hear. What I'm seeing tells a different story,...so far; American commander, the overwhelming majority of sorties flown by American combat aircraft, initial cruise missile strikes by USN (only 4 of 112 missiles were from UK sub), Over-night strike packages were USAF B-2, F-15E, F-16, and USMC AV-8.

That sounds a whole lot like the US taking the lead,... just saying.

Quoting curtisman (Reply 158):
I'm listening to CBC News and they are now talking about the Arab League saying "This is not what they had in mind when they called for a no-fly zone".

What a surprise; a bunch of Arab dictators and kings nervous about one of their own being attacked.
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AeroWesty
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting curtisman (Reply 158):
the Arab League saying "This is not what they had in mind when they called for a no-fly zone".

Did they say what the Arab League was expecting?

The speed in which targets were identified and bombed after Res. 1973 was passed at the U.N. says to me that this operation was already mapped out, and that France was anxious to strike. I've a hard time believing that the Arab League wasn't fully informed, seeing as how Qatar is sending planes in the first wave of countries involved.
International Homo of Mystery
 
GDB
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 160):
That is the plan so I hear. What I'm seeing tells a different story,...so far; American commander, the overwhelming majority of sorties flown by American combat aircraft, initial cruise missile strikes by USN (only 4 of 112 missiles were from UK sub), Over-night strike packages were USAF B-2, F-15E, F-16, and USMC AV-8.

That sounds a whole lot like the US taking the lead,... just saying.

That's what I thought, however, could it be that the take-down of the air defence assets was always going to be a US led affair? Remember Gates was adamant that this would have to preclude NFZ sorties.
When you've spare Ohio class SSBN's you can fill with Tomahawks, compared to a Trafalgar class RN sub which being a general Hunter-Killer type won't have the capacity to carry a whole bunch of similar weapons.
Noteworthy of the use of B-2's. As well as, to the surprise of some I suspect, the use of RAF Tornado's from the UK to attack similar type targets with StormShadows.
Today however, RAF Tornado's, with Typhoons as top cover, have/are being deployed to Italy. Likely their role will be more direct to the ground fighting, using Brimstone missiles and LGB's as well as Raptor recce pods.

So last night might well be a one off in the type and sheer weight of the ordnance used, given the statement by a senior US Commander about the effective imposition of the NFZ now, in the sense of the removing AD assets part.
So interesting to see how the use of air power changes/evolves as the focus shifts - as it must - to more direct support of the rebels on the ground.
(Apparently Sarkozy informed his Allies that his aircraft were to go to Libya once they were in the air! A reaction to the situation in Benghazi at that time?)

There is also the steady deployment of other NATO aircraft to the region, pretty much types that will have a tactical rather than strategic role, worth remembering this is just the start.
As well as, reportedly, Qatari jets.

One gripe, what's with the name Odyssey Dawn ? Sounds like a low rent porn-star, a bad Sci Fi novel, or a Cruise Liner.
You just know that name came from the Pentagon!
 
janmnastami
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 156):
It seems that Russia, China, and their entourage are the only countries dead against it.

Russia, China, Venezuela, Germany, the Arab League, not exactly unimportant countries/organizations.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 49):
Actually, this statement may be debatable. Would you rather still deal with the former USSR or with the Al Qaeda?

How many servicemen died during the cold war?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 60):
You are talking about units like the Long Range Desert Group (LRDG), which mostly did reconnaisance plus some attacks behind the German and Italian lines, the early Special Air Service (SAS),

And most of the original members of the Long Range Patrol came from New Zealand, my granddad was one of them, it was originally thought that NZ farm boys would be better suited for the job, mostly because they were better with machinery than UK city boys.

Back to the topic I don't see this conflict being anyone else's business, it's an internal Libyan issue and should be sorted out by them.
 
11Bravo
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 162):
That's what I thought, however, could it be that the take-down of the air defence assets was always going to be a US led affair?

You're probably right. I hope so. This American is not real excited about getting involved in yet another conflict in the ME.

I'm also scratching my head a little about some of the deployments:
We are sending four F-16s
We are sending four Tornados
We are sending six FA-18s

That seems very piecemeal and Mickey Mouse to be honest, At least deploy a squadron if not a whole wing.

We are sending a truck, a guy with a radio, and a wheel barrow.
We are sending some spare tires and a tent.

Seriously, deploy some real combat power, or maybe we should rethink this.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
flanker
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:41 pm

Qaddafi calls the air strikes 'acts of terrorism' , LOL the Irony is killing me.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 151):
In the history of the US they have never been a colonial power, indeed if one looks at their constitution it essentially prevents them from implementing laws and forms of government like the colonial system used by the English for example, won't debate whether that is good or bad. Even in their dependancies like Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and others they are essentially self ruled and can vote to become independent if they want to, Puerto Rico recently rejected the option.

You are mistaken. The Philippines were an official colony of the US after the Paris treaty at the end of the Spanish-American War in 1898.
There already existed a Filipino independence movement, which fought against the Spanish colonial power, as well as Muslim independence fighters in Mindenao and the Sulu islands (which were never truly conquered by the Spanish), who fought for their own territorial independence.
The US, at first cheered as allies, soon squashed the indegenous independence movements, using sometimes brutal force. In fact fighting between Filipino guerillas and American troops lasted until well into the 1920s and the relationship stayed cool until FDR announced a pullout of the Philippines in 1933 with a ten year transitional period. The country was supposed to become independent in 1943, but in 1941 the Japanese invaded. During this occupation Filipino guerillas and American troops found themselves suddenly fighting side by side against a common enemy and the Philippines finally became independent in 1946.
Back in 1898 the colonisation was heavily critizised by various Americans including Mark Twain. AFAIK, like the takeover of Hawaii, it was initiated by American sugar cane growers from mainly Louisiana, who feared a new competitor on the world markets.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
GDB
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 165):
You're probably right. I hope so. This American is not real excited about getting involved in yet another conflict in the ME.

Understood, questions asked here also about who pays? How to sustain, as well as the Afghan commitment, longer term.
Some of those deploying single figure numbers of combat aircraft also have Afghan commitments too, you know how it works, to sustain at distance a force you need 3 combat aircraft for each actually deployed, plus a higher ratio of crews, what with maintenance, replacement, R & R.
Something the UK Treasury at least need to take on board.

Also, it might be that there is a desire for as many nations to contribute, even if it means small numbers from each, politically.
Me, I just wonder what that large fleet of Egyptian F-16's (which your tax $ helped to pay for), given that they have beefs with Gaddafi pre-dating anyone's in the West, is doing in all this.
Then consider this when looking at a map, better (worse?) yet they even have a 30 year history of inter-operability with Western (mainly US) forces.
Apparently, the Qatari Mirage 2000's have recent experience with the French AF, which might have been a factor in them deploying.

Then again, more recently Saudi AF Tornado's have done some deployment to train in the UK with their RAF counterparts, so they could assist is preventing an Arab dictator oppressing his people............oh hang on! I seem to have hit a bump in the highway of my reasoning!
 
janmnastami
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:46 pm

Six Italian Tornados took off some minutes ago from Trapani, Sicily.
 
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par13del
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:38 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 168):
Me, I just wonder what that large fleet of Egyptian F-16's (which your tax $ helped to pay for), given that they have beefs with Gaddafi pre-dating anyone's in the West, is doing in all this.

I''ve seen you post this comment twice, does this mean that in your opinion the US is the only government that provides financial assistance to other countires purchasing military equipment?

Quoting GDB (Reply 168):
How to sustain, as well as the Afghan commitment, longer term.

Well the Afghan campaign has now lasted longer than Viet Nam, others can correct me but I think if my history is correct, it is the longest war that America has ever fought.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 167):
You are mistaken. The Philippines were an official colony of the US after the Paris treaty at the end of the Spanish-American War in 1898.

So one country the Philippines makes them a colonial power in our vernacular of colonial powers, technically you are right so I stand corrected, but it also re-inforces my point by showing how lousy they are at it, even after WWII they should have replaced the British with the sun not setting on the republic, but that's for another thread.


Quoting GDB (Reply 162):
That's what I thought, however, could it be that the take-down of the air defence assets was always going to be a US led affair? Remember Gates was adamant that this would have to preclude NFZ sorties.

I would have loved to seen it done by others without using US assets, the world at times needs to know others have capabilties too. Indeed, France started attacking while the air defenses were in place with no harm to their a/c, when you consider the cost of the SSBN, then the cost of the refit to conventional weapons, and the roughly one million a pop for a Tommahawk, I guess Uncle Sam wants a minimal role but is willing to spend big bucks to do so.
Go figure.
 
janmnastami
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 168):
they could assist is preventing an Arab dictator oppressing his people............oh hang on! I seem to have hit a bump in the highway of my reasoning!

And what do you want to do with the (large) part of the population that still support Gaddafi?
 
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par13del
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:58 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 171):
And what do you want to do with the (large) part of the population that still support Gaddafi?

Would have been nice to see China or Russia ask that question in the security council and hear the response, somehow we seem to believe that he has no support in country, even Saddam has his supporters to this day, does anyone really believe that Al Qaida and the US Military is behind all the years of violence in Iraq?

As one poster has already stated, when all is said and done, it will be the "biggest" and "baddest" one who emerges as leader even if the UN goes in to run and setup the new government.
 
11Bravo
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 169):
Six Italian Tornados took off some minutes ago from Trapani, Sicily.

Excellent intel sir, thank you.

Signed, The Libyan Air Defense Corps
WhaleJets Rule!
 
janmnastami
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 173):
Excellent intel sir, thank you.

Signed, The Libyan Air Defense Corps

Perhaps you didn't know this, but that news was on every Italian online newspaper.

There's no need to be ironic.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:32 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 173):
Excellent intel sir, thank you.

Signed, The Libyan Air Defense Corps

Its been reported on Australian news, both radio and TV.

Don't see the need for sarcasm  

[Edited 2011-03-20 16:10:04]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
11Bravo
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 174):
Perhaps you didn't know this, but that news was on every Italian online newspaper.

Perhaps then Italian online newspapers should refrain from such grossly irresponsible reporting. As long as you and all those newspapers are endangering Italian aircrews equally then it's all good,.... retards.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
cpd
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:59 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 168):
Then again, more recently Saudi AF Tornado's have done some deployment to train in the UK with their RAF counterparts, so they could assist is preventing an Arab dictator oppressing his people............oh hang on! I seem to have hit a bump in the highway of my reasoning!

I think Secretary of State Hillary Clinton addressed that in one of her conferences recently. It was all softly-softly talk, but I took the meaning as the USA expressing its disapproval of that.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 171):
And what do you want to do with the (large) part of the population that still support Gaddafi?

Is it really a large part of the population, or is it the rent-a-crowd that seems to be asssembled here and there.

This was an interesting article:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/stri...ghazi/story-fn7ycml4-1226025191950

Seems the rebels are calling in locations of their opposition and the air-strikes are happening very quickly. In this case, it speaks of the French attacking very swiftly.

[Edited 2011-03-20 16:14:12]
 
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Aesma
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:00 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 160):
That is the plan so I hear. What I'm seeing tells a different story,...so far; American commander, the overwhelming majority of sorties flown by American combat aircraft, initial cruise missile strikes by USN (only 4 of 112 missiles were from UK sub), Over-night strike packages were USAF B-2, F-15E, F-16, and USMC AV-8.

Well, to each his own information, I guess. I don't have any particular knowledge of what's going on, but here we hear about Mirage 2000, Rafale and support planes (AWACS, tankers, transports) rotations from Saint Dizier, Dijon, Istres, Nancy, Metz, Avord and Solenzara air bases (that last one is in Corsica). Including night strikes.

Quoting GDB (Reply 162):
One gripe, what's with the name Odyssey Dawn ? Sounds like a low rent porn-star, a bad Sci Fi novel, or a Cruise Liner.
You just know that name came from the Pentagon!

That's the US name, the UK version is Operation Ellamy, the French one is Opération Harmattan (the Harmattan is a dry and dusty West African trade wind).

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 165):
That seems very piecemeal and Mickey Mouse to be honest, At least deploy a squadron if not a whole wing.

According to French intel (gathered when we were offering to help Libya's AF), there were around 30 warplanes airworthy before the start of the uprising, when some defected, some others were captured and still others destroyed, so there should not be any need for a huge air force, especially considering that what planes Libya has aren't exactly latest tech, with well trained pilots.

According to wikipedia, French involvement consists of 8 Rafale, 2 Mirage 2000-5, 2 Mirage 2000D, 6 C135 tankers, 1 E-3F AWACS, 1 C-160G SIGINT, 1 anti-air destroyer (Forbin) and 1 anti-air frigate (Jean Bart). Then, our one and only carrier battle group is underway.

I would estimate there also are submarines involved, but it's not the kind of thing that are public.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cpd
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 178):
Well, to each his own information
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 160):
That is the plan so I hear. What I'm seeing tells a different story,...

Looks like we are going to have a bragging contest along national lines about who is dropping the most bombs...  

The crucial point is not who is doing what, but that the end result is achieved. Safety for the civilians. I just hope the end result works out well.
 
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Aesma
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:30 am

Oh I agree, and as long as the French assets deployed do well (and safe), I don't really care if the US is using 10 times more hardware, after all they have ten times (or is it 100 times ?) more hardware to use ! It's just annoying to see the efforts of other countries dismissed, how much F-16 Denmark has ? 30. You can't expect them to send them all !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
F9Animal
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:40 am

Just happy to see something being done about this guy. I also wish that we could stop the atrocities in Darfur and other places.

Damn, I wish all this war and death would stop. It is sad to see children being hurt. They are innocent victims on either side of it, and they should be a top priority on getting out of any strike zones.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
GDB
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:40 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 170):
I''ve seen you post this comment twice, does this mean that in your opinion the US is the only government that provides financial assistance to other countires purchasing military equipment?

No, but the sheer level of US-Egyptian co-operation over the past 30 years is unprecedented for a Western and Arab AF.
The Egyptian AF is competent, more mature organisation with a history stretching back over 50 years.
Unlike some others, they grew steadily, with combat experience along the way.
I also made the point about geography and the 40 year enmity between them and the Gaddafi's regime.
Just wondering why these questions are not asked in the general media, it's almost unfair to point the finger at other Mid East nations about contributing, for a start, Egypt does not have Iran as a neighbour.

As for 'who had colonies', I recommend Nail Ferguson's book Colossus , he also happens to be a centre-right historian who was supportive of the 2003 attack on Iraq (though not the botched aftermath) and very pro-US power generally as a force for good. However he does have some trenchant views on the subject of Colonial history (in it's various forms) and the perceived lack of it.

Interesting to note that one of the main bases for Gaddafi's AF used to be the Wheelus AFB of the USAF!
(And for British/Commonwealth people, many of names of Libyan places/cities evoke memories of WW2)

Quoting Aesma (Reply 178):
That's the US name, the UK version is Operation Ellamy, the French one is Opération Harmattan (the Harmattan is a dry and dusty West African trade wind).

The UK MoD get operational names from a random computer selection, hence such stirring names for Iraq 2003 as Operation Telic , Afghanistan as Op Herrick and the UK deployment to the former Yugoslavia in the 1990's as Operation [/i] Grapple [/i], which re-used the name given for the British H-Bomb tests on Christmas Island in the late 1950's, (back then, not so random, the three pronged 'Grapple' hook denoting the tri service nature of the operation).
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4726
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:20 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 181):
I also wish that we could stop the atrocities in Darfur and other places.

As soon as oil (or some other natural resource) is found there, we will.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 173):

Excellent intel sir, thank you.

Signed, The Libyan Air Defense Corps

Last I checked, they were basically destroyed overnight.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:32 am

Why no support/action over Yemen and Bahrain ?

The deaths in these two countries is raising rapidly along with mass arrests of opposition leaders and nothing firm (in the way of negotiations) really appears to be happening.

I hope this is not another case of double standards.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 176):
Perhaps then Italian online newspapers should refrain from such grossly irresponsible reporting. As long as you and all those newspapers are endangering Italian aircrews equally then it's all good,.... retards.

Hopefully we learned something from Bosnia and Serbia and don't make the patrol patterns so predictable that the Libyans can just park some missiles right under our planes.

Quoting cpd (Reply 179):
Looks like we are going to have a bragging contest along national lines about who is dropping the most bombs...

We should be happy the French are cooperating at all. Last time they had to be difficult and ended up screwing my mom out of a trip to Paris.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 183):
Last I checked, they were basically destroyed overnight.


Really? So last night we destroyed the thousands of mobile anti-aircraft assets in Libya by strikes against 20 or so fixed sites?
WhaleJets Rule!
 
cpd
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:52 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 186):
of mobile anti-aircraft assets in Libya by strikes against 20 or so fixed sites?

The moment they try and use any of them other than shoulder launched missiles, they'll be smashed by a heap of Rafales, Mirages or whatever else is nearby. The international force has pretty overhwhelming power - and it is backed seemingly by accurate reports of what is on the ground.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:01 am

So now we know what part two of the operation plan consists of; massacre the Lybian Army (plus kill Gaddafi if possible):-

"LIBYA leader Muammar Gaddafi's Tripoli headquarters has been flattened, as coalition forces carried out a new wave of air strikes and said they had set up a 'no-fly zone' across the country.

"A missile has totally destroyed an administrative building of Libyan leader Gaddafi's residence in Tripoli, even as the US administration insisted it was not directly targeting Gaddafi in an effort to affect regime change.

"US officials said the air strike on Gaddafi's administrative building had destroyed his "command and control capability".

"The official, who asked not to be identified, commented after a missile destroyed the building in the compound that includes Gaddafi's residence in Tripoli."


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/raid...ddafi/story-fn7ycml4-1226025254319
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7146
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 180):
It's just annoying to see the efforts of other countries dismissed, how much F-16 Denmark has ? 30. You can't expect them to send them all !

Royal Danish Air Force has roughly 65 F-16s, of which some 15 are mothballed. Only the roughly 50 operational planes have been -AM-updated making them roughly equal to US block 50 planes.

Six Danish F-16AMs are deployed to Sicily, with 132 servicemen including crews for four planes with the two remaining for backup, rotation into maintenance etc. Plus one C-130J.

With just over 5 million inhabitants (vs. 300 million Americans), the Danish contribution coresponds to 360 USAF fighters, 60 transport planes and 8,000 servicemen (but no ships, submarines, tankers, intelligence planes etc.)

Today four Danish F-16AMs made five hours long sorties over Libya relying on "foreign" tankers for refuelings. According to photos in the press they seem to have carried four AMRAAMs each, and no ground attack weapons.

This is first time Denmark is at war simultaneously on two foreign continents: Asia (Afghanistan) and Africa (Libya).
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Mudboy
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 175):
Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 173):
Excellent intel sir, thank you.

Signed, The Libyan Air Defense Corps

Its been reported on Australian news, both radio and TV.

Don't see the need for sarcasm

I think his sarcasm is based on the history of the lack of responsible reporting by the media, whether it matters. or not?
Since when has the media ever cared about anything other, than getting the story out? Kind of like in Desert Storm, when they constantly asked when the ground war would start? The public should never know anything about Military Ops, until after they happen, and sometimes, not even then.
 
cpd
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:49 am

Well, maybe it's time for America to take a step back from the conflict and let Britain and France finish it off:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...-usa-boehner-idUSTRE72J3G820110320
http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/...obama-must-consult-congress-furthe

I'm just not sure these kinds of comments are all that helpful in a time of war. It doesn't give an impression of being absolutely resolved to get the job done.

It might even be encouragement to the Libyan leadership - IE, if we hold out for long enough, the resolve of the international community might be fractured, and we'll be able to stay in power and stop the opposition movement.

[Edited 2011-03-20 20:51:11]
 
janmnastami
Posts: 379
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:49 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:03 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 176):
Perhaps then Italian online newspapers should refrain from such grossly irresponsible reporting. As long as you and all those newspapers are endangering Italian aircrews equally then it's all good,.... retards.

It's not gross reporting, the number and type of aircrafts are correct.

And with regard to "endangering them", it's the usual leitmotiv.

Quoting cpd (Reply 177):
Is it really a large part of the population, or is it the rent-a-crowd that seems to be asssembled here and there.

From what I read, I believe that in Tripolitania he has a quite strong support.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 190):
The public should never know anything about Military Ops, until after they happen, and sometimes, not even then.

I'm sure Saddam and many other dictators shared/share your view...

[Edited 2011-03-20 21:18:47]
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 188):
So now we know what part two of the operation plan consists of; massacre the Lybian Army (plus kill Gaddafi if possible):-

Hey NAV20, not so fast. Although I can see the urgency.

According to the "latest" SMH video, from Reuters Vice General Gourtney stated VERY clearly, that was not an "objective" (to kill Gaddaffy)

Check the 0.48 sec, where Gourtney says he guarantees that's he's not on the target list !

http://media.smh.com.au/national/sel...e-target-2243436.html?from=newsbox

Oh, who tells the truth ?   

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 190):
I think his sarcasm is based on the history of the lack of responsible reporting by the media, whether it matters. or not?

I agree, but, in order for the press to report something, they have to go "a lookin"

The (Military) spokespeople, should never identified what bases would/might be used to launch the attacks from to start with, don't you think ?

I mean, if we let the cat out of the bag, they are going to tell all and sundry, that's their job I suppose.

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 192):
And with regard to "endangering them", it's the usual leitmotiv.

The Military powers that be, indicated, I think that this would be one of the bases used, so of course the press are going to report on it, they are probably camped right outside the security fence with their macro lenses, finally tuned on the runway.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 190):
The public should never know anything about Military Ops, until after they happen, and sometimes, not even then.

That might be the case, but does nobody remember the word "subterfuge"? It would hardly be the first time the media had been used to mislead the enemy - if indeed that was the case.

Does nobody remember or at least know about Patton and his publicised command of the First US Army Group before D-day?

Wiki:
First United States Army Group was a fictitious Army Group invented by the Allies in World War II prior to D-Day, as part of Operation Quicksilver, which was designed to deceive the Germans about where the invasion of France would take place. To attract Axis attention, George S. Patton was placed in command of the fabricated formation.

Very public and it worked too, even better than had been hoped.

BTW, did the news broadcasts provide a flight plan?
 
cpd
Posts: 6714
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:11 am

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 192):
From what I read, I believe that in Tripolitania he has a quite strong support.

I'm not so sure - it seems like a proverbial potemkin village - a show with not much substance behind it.

When he begins to look more fragile, let's see how supportive the people are.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:18 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 195):
it seems like a proverbial potemkin village

And he would not be the only one practicing some bits of behaviour that were not exactly what it seems at first sight. I am not saying the attacks are without substance, just don't expect to be told at present exactly what they are all about and why they are happening.

What support Gaddafi has will be strongly related to his financial powers of "persuasion". I imagine his bank accounts are not in all that good a state just at present.

[Edited 2011-03-20 21:18:56]
 
Mudboy
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 6:51 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:45 am

Quoting janmnastami (Reply 192):
I'm sure Saddam and many other dictators shared/share your view...

So, you are implying it should be public knowledge where and when a Military Op should take place, and when we send in SOF to run covert Ops for training rebels, damage assessment, combat control etc. it should not be classified, and it should be reported on the news as well, that we have troops behind enemy lines? Yes, I can see where only Dictators would think like that
   
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5929
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:03 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 189):
Royal Danish Air Force has roughly 65 F-16s, of which some 15 are mothballed. Only the roughly 50 operational planes have been -AM-updated making them roughly equal to US block 50 planes.

Six Danish F-16AMs are deployed to Sicily, with 132 servicemen including crews for four planes with the two remaining for backup, rotation into maintenance etc. Plus one C-130J.

With just over 5 million inhabitants (vs. 300 million Americans), the Danish contribution coresponds to 360 USAF fighters, 60 transport planes and 8,000 servicemen (but no ships, submarines, tankers, intelligence planes etc.)

Today four Danish F-16AMs made five hours long sorties over Libya relying on "foreign" tankers for refuelings. According to photos in the press they seem to have carried four AMRAAMs each, and no ground attack weapons.

This is first time Denmark is at war simultaneously on two foreign continents: Asia (Afghanistan) and Africa (Libya).

Congratulations to our Danish friends. Your Norwegian collegues are heading your way today. From what I understand the base that the Danish are stationed at has become full and it looks likke our Norwegian pilots need to find a different base to fly out from.

If I read Wikipedia correctly it looks like you Danes only have some 30 F16's operational... Can this be true ?
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:36 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 193):
Oh, who tells the truth ?


Interesting that he said, 'At this particular point in time I can guarantee........" - probably just means that they didn't know where he was at that moment.........  Smile

These reports show that the 'Coalition' is not just attacking 'air superiority' targets:-

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/20/libya.benghazi/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-Gaddafi-column-near-Benghazi.html

[Edited 2011-03-20 23:45:57]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

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