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AGM100
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:12 pm

No disrespect to the crew of the USS Barry ... evidently they fired the first Tomahawk of the scrap . Godspeed ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:26 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 284):
Please enlighten us about these "Muslim" riots. I have lived in central Paris since Jan 2003 and have no idea what you are talking about. There have been no "Muslim French riots" that I am aware of. The greatest unrest was in 2005, which went on for several weeks, and there is no serious suggestion that it was 'Islamic' in motivation: half the proptagonists were youths of West African origin, mainly with Catholic backgrounds and about half North African arabs with muslim backgrounds. The issues related to ongoing feelings of socio-economic marginalizaiton and police bias against them (nothing specifically Islamic here). France's muslim population is amongst the most secular in the world, even if it is large in number and has some harder core elements. Socio-political unrest, sure, but I don't think you know what you're talking about on this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_ci...rance

If you're going to provide a link to back your arguement, you should make sure it agrees with you as there is some controversy about your assertions. The BBC reported that French society's negative perceptions of Islam and social discrimination of immigrants had alienated some French Muslims and may have been a factor in the causes of the riots; "Islam is seen as the biggest challenge to the country's secular model in the past 100 years".[17] It reported that there was a "huge well of fury and resentment among the children of North African and African immigrants in the suburbs of French cities".

Additionally, the number of North Africans outpaces sub-saharan Africans by over 3-1 in France.

But that is not the point. Call your riots what you will, Muslim, brown/black, whatever, it really matters not. And I did not use those examples to vilify or to knock France for those riots. Many countries have uprisings, riots and suppression - yours and mine. This does not mean that we should start bombing and calling for the overthrow and death of the government and its leaders. I used the example to illustrate how the same arguments used by your government can easily be turned in ways that might prove hypocritical. For example, what about the Paris massacre of 1961?

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 284):

" Pension riots of '10" ??? This was normal political activism in France. "Massive deaths". Are you for real???

I did not say "massive deaths", I wrote "massive arrests, deaths", meaning some deaths, although I see how that can be read as massive deaths.

But your political activism statement is interesting. At what point is it merely "normal political activism" and when is it deserving of US military bombs? Violence, arrests, some deaths, that is how Libya started and by that time, your government was already calling for sanctions and the overthrow of Kadaffi.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 284):
Please correct your erroneous post with a retraction.

Aside from that apparent language misunderstanding, I stand firmly behind everything I have written in this thread.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 290):
Jihadis are probably a smaller group in Libya than many ME countries.

We don't know that, Libyan jihadists sent the largest percentage of fighters per capita to Al Quada in Iraq, by a factor of 4. In fact, this current rebellion has roots from the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (as well as tribal rivalries) which at one time operated in 17 countries. There was a big peace deal with some of it's leaders who found god after 10-20 years in prison but there are reasons why the Libyan civil war began in Benghazi.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 290):
Let us hope that Libya serves to reduce that oxygen supply rather than increase it. In other words, have we learned anything from Iraq and Afghanistan?

One thing the US learned in Kosovo, saving Muslims from genocide or ethnic-cleansing as the UN called it, did nothing, absolutely nothing to to reduce that oxygen. Nothing.

The one thing to suck the oxygen is to lose the need for their oil. The US can withdraw from the ME and go home. Everybody will be happier. What you all in France, England or Australia do is fine by me, I won't complain. The US does not need to be involved. The only thing trying to save Libya from itself will do is suck more US treasure which would be better spent on buying alternative power supplies for our electric transportation system. The $1 Billion+ we will spend on this foray would buy a lot of electric cars.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2597
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:29 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 301):
If you're going to provide a link to back your arguement, you should make sure it agrees with you as there is some controversy about your assertions.

Yes, of course I read the whole article, but you hunted for text to support your position and then either chose not to quote it in context or failed to read the last line from the SAME BBC REPORT that basically dismissed the part you quoted....

"However, the editorial also questioned whether or not such alarm is justified, citing that France's Muslim ghettos are not hotbeds of separatism and that "the suburbs are full of people desperate to integrate into the wider society."[19]

On the Pension demonstrations (you like to call riots) there were general strikes and often illegal ones of some essential services, shutting down of oil refineries and airports, etc. The government used constitutional powers to legally break up certain strikes. I find no reference the government killing strikers or making illegal arrests, do you? To insist the French government in this context behaved as in Libya is ludicrous and disingenuous. It was political protest and democracy at work, with some excesses moving to extortion through withdrawal of essential services - The government used its constitutional powers to restore essential services.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 301):
Aside from that apparent language misunderstanding, I stand firmly behind everything I have written in this thread.

On what basis? You have been shown to have misrepresented the facts.

[Edited 2011-03-23 16:30:25]

[Edited 2011-03-23 16:35:36]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 288):
“The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.”


You've brought up this point before, but it's still wrong. President Obama isn't taking unilateral action against Libya. The United States is providing support for a United Nations resolution approved by a vote of the Security Council.

Definition of "unilateral": Performed by or affecting only one person, group, or country involved in a particular situation, without the agreement of another or the others.

Still no soup for you!   
International Homo of Mystery
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:17 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 303):

You've brought up this point before, but it's still wrong. President Obama isn't taking unilateral action against Libya. The United States is providing support for a United Nations resolution approved by a vote of the Security Council.

Definition of "unilateral": Performed by or affecting only one person, group, or country involved in a particular situation, without the agreement of another or the others.

The UN has absolutely no authority in the US. Our government is run by the President, Congress and the Courts.

Soup's up!
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:07 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 304):
The UN has absolutely no authority in the US.

To keep this thread on-topic, I'd be more than happy to continue to discuss this in another thread on the internal affairs of the nations involved in enforcing the No Fly Zone, if you have any salient points to present on the matter.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 304):
The UN has absolutely no authority in the US.

The UN has absolutely no authority anywhere.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 282):
A more important question in all this, how to assist the rebellion if, as now seems the case, the Gaddafi lot have figured out that sitting out in the desert you might as well paint a target on top of your tank. Whereas lurking in a built up area is going to present a much more difficult targeting challenge. At least from fast jets. Would attack helicopters count as a ground force?

Looks like you got yourself a 'hole in one,' Baroque, well done:-

“The situation is very serious here in Misrata,” said an opposition supporter in the city, who was reached Wednesday evening. “The tanks are coming again to the centre of Misrata city and they are bombing the hospital at this time.”

"U.S. officers said that the U.S.-led campaign is not conducting airstrikes inside urban areas in order to avoid causing civilian casualties. By avoiding close air attacks in cities, allied planners may be hoping to avoid accidental civilian killings that would undercut political support for the campaign.

"Instead, the allied warplanes are hitting Libyan units outside cities, as well as supply lines and headquarters facilities, in hopes of pressuring them to halt attacks against civilians, the officers said.

"But the limitation on the allied strikes also appears to give Gadhafi’s troops, once they are deployed inside rebel-held cities, freedom to carry out attacks relatively unmolested, at least for the time being."


http://www.thespec.com/news/world/ar...-libya-but-haven-t-stopped-gadhafi

That word 'stalemate' comes to mind again. What's more, it's becoming increasingly clear that the Coalition 'strategy' - if you can call it that - was based from the beginning on trying to help the rebels to win; and on nothing else, there's no 'Plan B.'
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1626
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:28 am

Quoting Severnaya (Reply 294):
They do have some, however they are most likely not in flying conditions anymore.
Quoting GDB (Reply 295):
Lifelinerone, they did once;

Thanks! Never knew that!

Cheers!   
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
oly720man
Posts: 5813
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:17 pm

Reports that a French AF Rafale has shot down a Libyan AF Soko Galeb today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12850975
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:06 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 309):
Reports that a French AF Rafale has shot down a Libyan AF Soko Galeb today.

Poor thing probably never had a chance. I bet you he was ordered up against his will and didn't know anything was wrong until a missile hit his plane. Sucks to be him, hope he ejected!

[Edited 2011-03-24 09:06:39]
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5929
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:27 pm

The Norwegian F16s has now been asigned to the US North African branch and the Odyssey Dawn operation. Two of the six F16 today took of from the base in Greece for Libya at around mid day today.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14074
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 301):
But that is not the point. Call your riots what you will, Muslim, brown/black, whatever, it really matters not. And I did not use those examples to vilify or to knock France for those riots. Many countries have uprisings, riots and suppression - yours and mine. This does not mean that we should start bombing and calling for the overthrow and death of the government and its leaders. I used the example to illustrate how the same arguments used by your government can easily be turned in ways that might prove hypocritical. For example, what about the Paris massacre of 1961?

Even in 1961, there were no shootings. And that was 50 years ago. We don't shoot protesters, don't you see a difference here, with all that's happening in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Yemen, etc. ? And recently, some strikes were quite extreme, involving burning warehouses, strapping gas bottles to machines menacing to blow them up, etc. Nobody died, nobody was shot.

Anyway, your argument might have been somewhat valid some weeks ago when the protests were quite similar to what happened in neighboring countries, but since then, there has been thousands of deaths, including by warplanes and artillery, so how can you argue it's just riots and a normal response ? Are you for real ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GDB
Posts: 14112
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 306):
The UN has absolutely no authority anywhere.

Until it suits the US.
And when as, inevitably, some power declines in some places this century, rises in others, (including who is the debtor and who is the creditor), then I guess the UN will prove more useful even to those who de-cry it now.
Previous arrogance will be in short supply then I guess.

It's a club, the biggest most powerful member has the most influence, so far that has been...........?
But being the most powerful member is not the same as being the owner .
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:11 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 312):

Even in 1961, there were no shootings.

Really. I suppose drowning is more humane?

The Paris massacre of 1961 refers to a massacre in Paris on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the French police attacked an illegal but peaceful[citation needed] demonstration of some 30,000 pro-FLN Algerians..... After 37 years of denial, the French government acknowledged 40 deaths in 1998, although there are estimates of over 200.[1].....

Many demonstrators died when they were violently herded by police into the River Seine, with some thrown from bridges after being beaten unconscious. Other demonstrators were killed within the courtyard of the Paris police headquarters after being arrested and delivered there in police buses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

Quoting Aesma (Reply 312):
Anyway, your argument might have been somewhat valid some weeks ago when the protests were quite similar to what happened in neighboring countries, but since then, there has been thousands of deaths, including by warplanes and artillery, so how can you argue it's just riots and a normal response ? Are you for real ?

And at this point, it is a civil war. Looking at the timelines, both sides were complicit in escalating violence. The US does not need to be involved with a civil war in a country in which it has no interests. If the French want to get involved, I won't complain, but do it yourselves with your treasure, your blood. (BTW, it's very interesting how many of your arguments could be used for the US-Iraq situation)

So, today in Syria, reportedly 37 more people were killed. Syria is, in western eyes, strategically far more important and has at the very least, an equally poor history regarding political suppression (Hama massacre). Were is the French indignation? Are the bombers fired up?
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:43 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 313):
Until it suits the US.

No. The US is there because they believe it is the right course of action. The French are there because they think it is the right course of action. Nobody is there because the UN thinks it is the right course of action and any government that would do so is doing their citizens a disservice by giving up sovereignty.

Quoting GDB (Reply 313):
It's a club, the biggest most powerful member has the most influence, so far that has been...........?

Large powerful nations will always have influence whether there is a forum or not.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
11Bravo
Posts: 1683
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:54 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:50 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 314):
Really. I suppose drowning is more humane?

I don't think comparing the current situation in Libya with riot events in France in the 1960s is particularly useful. The situations are very different.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 314):
And at this point, it is a civil war. Looking at the timelines, both sides were complicit in escalating violence. The US does not need to be involved with a civil war in a country in which it has no interests. If the French want to get involved, I won't complain, but do it yourselves with your treasure, your blood.

I agree completely. Our European allies are being very difficult about this whole deal. The president should move to remove US forces from this conflict without further delay. France and the UK were very aggressive in pursuing a UN resolution, but now they equivocate and stall when it come time to "take the lead" as they promised; very disappointing.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
GDB
Posts: 14112
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:57 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 316):
I don't think comparing the current situation in Libya with riot events in France in the 1960s is particularly useful. The situations are very different.

You'll note a certain obsession about that in this thread.

As for interests, that region being as stable as possible is in the interests of both the US and Europe.
All that cash and aid into neighbouring Egypt these past 30 years from the US seems to demonstrate that.
(You'd think they'd be a partner in this operation?)

Let's not deny also that Libya was full of expat US oil workers, as well as ones from Europe and elsewhere, when the uprising began.
I assume they were oil workers, somehow I doubt they were tourists, Libya is not known for mass tourism.
Certainly all the criticism about the idea of allowing Qaddafi 'in from the cold' in 2004 should be shared by all, France, UK, the US and all the rest, were equally culpable here.
IIRC, the Bush administration's renewed contact with the regime was late 2003, prior to Blair's now rather infamous (with the benefit if hindsight) trip there.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:39 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 317):
You'll note a certain obsession about that in this thread.

Together with a lack in interest in Kent State and Watts - perhaps they caused amnesia?

Quoting GDB (Reply 317):
Let's not deny also that Libya was full of expat US oil workers, as well as ones from Europe and elsewhere, when the uprising began.

It would be very surprising if it were not.

All sorts of odd rumour around about Libya and its oil. One really strange one in the SMH today's letters claimed that Libyan oil had a problem that prevented its use until some magic method was invented quite recently. Problem and magic not specified. I can only assume it related in a very confused fashion to the waxy nature of some of the oils, but that was no different to the Gippsland oils from here or the Minas crude from Indonesia.

When the Libyans nationalized their oil, the west fell about laughing that the Libyans would not be able to manage the pipelines and would soon be the owners of the world's longest candles as the oil set in the pipelines. The laughter seems not to have been justified.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:31 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 316):
I don't think comparing the current situation in Libya with riot events in France in the 1960s is particularly useful. The situations are very different.

Agreed. And likewise the argument I was using it against that protests, arrests and violence are enough to dictate our military intervention. Ugly things happen around the world, many even more ugly than Libya, yet nobody pays attention.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 318):

Together with a lack in interest in Kent State and Watts - perhaps they caused amnesia?

I freely admitted my own country's incidents if you were to read a little more carefully. Many countries have had violent uprisings threatening governments - even leading to civil wars. It did not mean a third country set about bombing the place.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:14 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 319):
I freely admitted my own country's incidents if you were to read a little more carefully. Many countries have had violent uprisings threatening governments - even leading to civil wars. It did not mean a third country set about bombing the place.

Maybe you did, but there was so much about France - most of which appears either to be wrong, or to be related to an entirely different phase of French history - that it was and still is pretty hard to find. Refresh our memories so we can work out your balanced view on problems of civil order.

Anyway this is about Libya and in Libya there is a rebellion. I mention this just in case the thread has wandered so far it is being forgotten. And the thread is about whether it is sensible to intervene and if so, how best to do this.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5929
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:25 pm

- 3 laserguided bombs were launched from 2 F-16 of the Royal Norwegian airforce on Friday 25.03.2011, against Libyan tanks

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4073163.ece
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:16 am

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/c...rticle.aspx?cp-documentid=28129501

NATO officially took over the mission on Thursday. Lt.-Gen. Charles Bouchard of the Canadian Armed Forces has been appointed to lead it.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Mortyman
Posts: 5929
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:02 am

F-16s from the Royal Norwegian Airforce bombed an airfield in Libya during the night

http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/03/26/nyheter/utenriks/libya/15959765/
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: No Fly Zone Over Libya?

Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:39 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 322):
Lt.-Gen. Charles Bouchard of the Canadian Armed Forces has been appointed to lead it.

Apparently he's an airman. And both his bosses are (USN) sailors........

"Bouchard, a former helicopter pilot from Chicoutimi, Que., will lead the air campaign and coordinate the naval task force that polices an arms embargo against the Libyan regime. He will be assisted by a team of Canadians as well as the NATO staff.

---------------

"Although Bouchard will serve under U.S. Admiral Samuel Locklear, who commands NATO’s Naples headquarters, as well as U.S. Admiral James Stavridis, the Supreme Allied Commander for Europe, he will have hands-on control of the daily mission in Libya...."


http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...coalition-of-the-wobbling-in-libya

I thought this was all taking place on (very) dry land.......?

I'll stick to my earlier opinion; either this operation will eventually end up with 'boots on the ground,' or it will just fizzle out.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
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