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mt99
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 149):
The President has successfully covered himself politically ...if Gaddafi's's stays and behaves .. Obama wins for protecting the civilians ...if Gaddafi dies ... Obama wins for knocking off a dictator. As long as we lose no US servicemen he will succeed in the political agenda.

And whats wrong with that? Are you looking for him to fail?
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AeroWesty
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 147):
Those that live in glass houses..(including Obama) should not throw stones. But of course both of your arguments are always on principle and never ideology

It's usual and customary to provide some backup for statements such as this, like I do. Otherwise, it's simply partisan blubbering.

Care to point out where I didn't support the No Fly Zone over Iraq? I've been posting here since 2004, there's a lot of material to choose from. Make your case.
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fxramper
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:36 am

We aren't in a war and we are going to let NATO handle it, but Obama has authorized covert operations now.


article
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 152):
Obama has authorized covert operations now.

Special Forces are everywhere. I am almost positive they were in Libya from the get go. Not something I can pull out a source for, you just hear of this stuff all the time
 
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fxramper
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:32 am

Obama use to think topping a dictator was a "dumb war". Why are we involved again? Does he have a half brother living there?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obam...2002-toppling-brutal-dictator-dumb
 
stratosphere
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:48 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 154):
Obama use to think topping a dictator was a "dumb war". Why are we involved again? Does he have a half brother living there?

I think Obama has realized that making promises on the campaign trail is vastly different once you step into that job. Thats what cracks me up about campaign promises that people seem to really swallow hook line and sinker like "change" is easy to say not so easy to do.
 
Mortyman
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:08 pm

Quoting fxramper (Reply 152):
We aren't in a war and we are going to let NATO handle it, but Obama has authorized covert operations now.


article

I read somewhere else that agents are helping with pointing out bomb targets for allied airforces. This is one of the things that Norwegian forces has been doing on the ground in Afghanistan for several years now. Would'nt surprise me either if agents has been on the ground from the get go. Far from it. It would surprise me immensly if there was'nt agents / specialforces groups on the ground already.
 
D L X
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 155):
I think Obama has realized that making promises on the campaign trail is vastly different once you step into that job. Thats what cracks me up about campaign promises that people seem to really swallow hook line and sinker like "change" is easy to say not so easy to do.

Yup.

There probably has not been a presidential campaign since the onset of television that differed from this assessment.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:39 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 147):
Those that live in glass houses..(including Obama) should not throw stones. But of course both of your arguments are always on principle and never ideology

I would disagree.

I think if you go back, you'll see that I very rarely participate in political discussions. Mostly because it bores me, and because I don't see myself belonging to either political party. I guess if I had to label myself, I would say I was Libertarian? But even then... their foreign policy views are often far from mine. So I dunno, I guess I'm just out here all by myself! But you're dead wrong if you think I buy into political ideologies. Dead wrong.

The thing with DXing is that he is a good guy, but his political ideology is the largest motivating factor in any of his discussions. Obviously I cannot prove it, but rather if it President McCain, I believe he would be singing a different tune. I simply do not believe he opposes this war on principle. I believe he opposes it, because it's an excellent opportunity to score some political points in his favor blood sport: politics. Just a personal opinion though.

But yeah, you're wrong, I don't get involved in political discussions very often. Go back and check.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 149):
UH ... Do you agree with the action ? I was just checking didn't see a post above on your defence of the action taking place in Libya?.

Wait... I think you guys think my previous comment was regarding President Obama? No no, it was about DXing.

Anyway, I have some very strong feelings about what's happening.... but you will never see me talking about it publicly. I didn't criticize SecDef Rumsfeld or President Bush while they were my bosses - I waited until after they left office. And you'll see me do the same with anything currently underway.

It's really not my place to publicly support, or criticize, the administrations decisions. Although, I will say that I was grateful my unit didn't get deployed for CSAR or something. I'm enjoying my time with my wife and toddlers!
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
AGM100
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 150):
Are you looking for him to fail?


In Libya ? Not sure what failure is for this mission... he has already hedged every possible outcome so failure is not a option when you have a reasonable explanation to fall back on. Now if Gadhafi gets to fill the mass graves with rebels and we can actually find a press agency to cover it ...then we will see.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 158):
I waited until after they left office. And you'll see me do the same with anything currently underway.


Fair enough ... glad your safe with the wife and children UH . Enjoy the summer ...
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fxramper
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:02 pm

Did the US halt sorties so they don't drop a bomb on a CIA clandestine officer handing out Aks?   
 
AGM100
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:13 pm

Huh...we start bombing Libya and the hearings on Radical Imams and Sharia in America goes to page 99 in the paper.    I'm just saying..... this is fun..... upload tin hat pic again.
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windy95
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 158):
But yeah, you're wrong, I don't get involved in political discussions very often. Go back and check.

Okay no problem I guess what I was getting at was that much of our arguments come from our principals which does lead us to buy into certain ideologies. Sometimes in politics they can be the one and the same even. As far as people like myself I do not believe that it is ideology that drives me. I do not sit and listen to talk shows all day long or read right wing articles. Much of what I argue I imagine is like everyone else in that it is just what we feel inside. It is the way I always felt. And like you I may closer to a libertarian than conservative. I also think that Dx would of been against this if it was McCain. But I also may be wrong on it. To me if it does not have an immient threat to the US or to it's citizens abroad we do not belong there especially without the consent of Congress. During my time in the Military I particiapted on the raid on Libya the first time around and we alos supported from the the states the Panama operation. Everything that the Presidents did in my time in including the first Gulf War fell into the Protection of the US and it's citizens until the Iraq war. I was still in at the time but it did not sit right. I fully endorsed it because like you we do our job and support our friends. I actually fully support many of your comments on the prosection of the war and on Rumsfeld.
 
dxing
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:21 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 158):
But you're dead wrong if you think I buy into political ideologies. Dead wrong.

Call me dead wrong then because I don't see it that way at all. I've refrained from responding since this conversation has nothing to do with the thread but enough is enough. You are not a liberal, this is true, but fall to that side of the fence more than not. Nothing wrong with that but please don't try and sell us on something else.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 128):
You need to understand that he doesn't have principles, he has ideology. So this honestly has nothing to do with opposing the war, it has everything to do with opposing President Obama.
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 158):
The thing with DXing is that he is a good guy, but his political ideology is the largest motivating factor in any of his discussions. Obviously I cannot prove it, but rather if it President McCain, I believe he would be singing a different tune. I simply do not believe he opposes this war on principle.

Maybe you got it half right. I don't oppose the action per se, what I oppose is a President that campaigns on calling his predecessor wrong to join in a military action, or war, or whatever you want to call it and then proceeds to do the same exact thing as if he never uttered the comments he did on the Senate floor in 2007. Did President Obama seek a resolution from Congress? They were in session. If not then he is completely open to criticism on that point.

As to the action itself, I find it too little, way too late. I've been out of the country for a week and have not paid attention to the news at all but the last time I checked we were packing up and turning it over to someone, although who that someone was going to be was up in the air. In addition when are we going to start bombing Syria, Yemen, and every other ME country that has been roughing up their citizens that are in protest?

You're right that If Sen. McCain were President my view would be different but only because he did not say the things that President Obama said about the Iraq war and how we got into it.

The principle in action here is consistency, which is not a strong suite of President Obama. Idealogy has very little to do with it. Say what you are going to do and then do what you say!! If he didn't think President Bush had any right to use the military without specific Congressional approval (he had it) then why are you (Obama) doing it? Especially if the our country wasn't under specific threat as he qualified his statement on the Senate floor?

If he wanted to go in and save Libya he could have gotten together with the Congressional leadership and had a resolution in a day or two. Instead he phoned in his plan on the way out of town to Brazil, where he praised the Brazilians for attempting to be energy independent by drilling, something he won't let happen at home!! Again, consistency. People wonder why corporations, banks, and small businesses are not hiring or lending. No consistency from the guy at the top of the Executive Branch. That's not ideaology, that is a principle, and it needs to be addressed.

Consistency, consistency, consistency. Or do just let go of the controls in hover 5ft above the ground and trust the thing land itself?
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baroque
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:44 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 163):
he won't let happen at home!!

Which is why a number of companies have already resumed drilling in the GOM I suppose.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:53 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 163):
People wonder why corporations, banks, and small businesses are not hiring or lending.

I guess the Los Angeles Times and the State of California didn't get your memo. In February 2011, a net of 96,500 new jobs were created in the state.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar...ess/la-fi-california-jobs-20110326

Consistency and truthfulness indeed. UH60 nailed the situation. I thought it was hilarious that another poster in this thread, one with a long history of anti-Obama threads and right-wing posts, now claims to be a libertarian as well.
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dxing
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:38 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 164):
Which is why a number of companies have already resumed drilling in the GOM I suppose.



And why a number of drilling and field services companies have had to drastically cut jobs and are either in receivership or up for sale. ONE deep water permit since the moratorium was lifted by force of law in October. Half of pre-BP spill for shallow water permits for both gas and oil.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...permit-gulf-bp-spill_n_829505.html

NEW YORK — The U.S. has approved the first deepwater drilling permit in the Gulf of Mexico since BP's massive oil spill.

The Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, Regulation and Enforcement announced Monday that it issued a permit to Noble Energy Inc. to continue work on its Santiago well about 70 miles southeast of Venice, La. Drilling will resume nearly one year after BP's blowout created the worst offshore spill in U.S. history.


http://www.npr.org/2010/11/19/131458...g-permits-hurts-small-energy-firms

"They're natural gas wells, not oil wells," says Jim Noe, senior vice president, general counsel and chief compliance officer at Hercules Offshore.

"We're using technology that we've been using for decades — safely and without incident," he says.

It looked like the Obama administration recognized this, too — at first. The shallow-water moratorium lasted less than a month.

"And yet we've been facing what we've called a de facto moratorium because the Obama bureaucrats won't issue permits," Noe says.

Historically the government approved 10 to 15 shallow-water drilling permits a month. But now, that number has fallen to almost none.


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/7496687.html

Yet since the moratorium on shallow-water operations was lifted, the government has acted, and continues to act, as if it were still in place.

Our government cannot claim in good conscience to hold up shallow-water permits out of an abundance of caution. The shallow-water industry relies on proven and straightforward methods honed over decades of use. Our record speaks for itself: In the past 15 years, 11,070 shallow-water wells have been drilled in the Gulf of Mexico, with a grand total of 15 barrels of oil spilled as a result of well-control incidents.

Those numbers no longer seem to matter. The only numbers that count today are the following: As of this writing, a mere 37 permits for new shallow-water wells have been issued since April — an average of just three per month. Before April 2010, an average of 7.1 permits were approved each month during the year before the incident. The historical numbers are much larger even in the aftermath of the financial crisis.



Consistency, consistency, consistency.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 165):
I guess the Los Angeles Times and the State of California didn't get your memo. In February 2011, a net of 96,500 new jobs were created in the state.



And how does that compare prior to 2008? What's the unemployment rate in CA? How many jobs need to be produced each month to zero sum those jobs lost?


Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 165):
Consistency and truthfulness indeed. UH60 nailed the situation.



Couldn't disagree more. If you would care to describe the consistency in President Obama's use of the military in Libya versus Iraq, based on his comments on the Senate floor in 2007 regarding a Presidents authority to use the military in any other situation other than responding to an ongoing or imminent attack by all means do. I'm not talking about wmd's or rebels, I'm speaking purely about using the military without specific Congressional approval which is what he said the President should obtain prior to using the military in anything other than a direct attack.
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AeroWesty
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:48 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 166):
If you would care to describe the consistency in President Obama's use of the military in Libya versus Iraq, based on his comments on the Senate floor in 2007 regarding a Presidents authority to use the military in any other situation other than responding to an ongoing or imminent attack by all means do.

Don't need to. Your arguments are less than consistent. First it was whinging about "unilateral" action, now you've dropped that after it was successfully replied to you've gone onto whinging about something else on a different tangent. Like it's been established, UH60 nailed it. Nothing more needs to be said.
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dxing
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:47 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 167):
Don't need to.

You are dodging here. I've been consistent in that our President is acting completely counter to what he himself said on the Senate floor in regards to the Presidents authority to use the military in any situation not involving an imminent or direct attack on our country. When questioned as to if I supported the action I've been consistent that my thoughts are too little too late and I don't really care if they go or stay. You can either answer the question or not, that's your choice, but please do not attempt to falsify my responses in an attempt to deflect the lack of your ability to be able to answer the question.

[Edited 2011-04-05 09:55:49]

[Edited 2011-04-05 09:58:44]
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windy95
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 165):
I thought it was hilarious that another poster in this thread, one with a long history of anti-Obama threads and right-wing posts, now claims to be a libertarian as well.

Get it right. It is anti anybody who is left of center. Especially a far left wing like Obama.

Quoting dxing (Reply 163):
You're right that If Sen. McCain were President my view would be different but only because he did not say the things that President Obama said about the Iraq war and how we got into it

But some people continue to excuse that position away...Along with the change of heart on GITMO, Patriot Act, Iraq and Afghan wars and now the trials/tribunals. And I am still waiting for his partner Biden to start impeaching him for using powers neither of them stated they had as President and VP.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 168):
do not attempt to falsify my responses

Those acting on principles instead of ideology wouldn't have used the job numbers posted as an excuse to continue a barrage of negativity directed towards the current administration. The principle-minded would have first derived at least a word or two of praise or encouragement from this positive sign for our economy as a whole.

However, this thread is about the US, Libya, and the White House, rather than anyone in particular's style of debate, so I'll refrain from any further comments on this tangent.
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dxing
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:47 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 170):
Those acting on principles instead of ideology wouldn't have used the job numbers posted as an excuse to continue a barrage of negativity directed towards the current administration.

Agreed, but since I didn't use job numbers (you did in reply 165) just the correct observation made by those on the left as well as the right here on this forum that coporations and small businesses are not hiring nor are banks lending, and unlike the left, correctly assigned the reason as being inconsistency from the WH in regards to fiscal policy all I did was link one inconsistent action (fiscal) with another (foreign policy). That is not a lapse of principle for ideology but rather a direct comparison between two areas that suffer from the same problem, in this case inconsistency in action.

As to a barrage of negativity, never heard that complaint about persons doing it to the previous President from you so you color yourself hypocrite.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 170):
. The principle-minded would have first derived at least a word or two of praise or encouragement from this positive sign for our economy as a whole.

Praise is reserved for those that have earned it. Given the state of the countries employment situation, no praise has been earned. Praise has nothing to do with the principle of consistency.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 170):
However, this thread is about the US, Libya, and the White House, rather than anyone in particular's style of debate, so I'll refrain from any further comments on this tangent.

So in other words you still cannot find anyway to defend the Presidents actions versus his own words about his predecessors use of the military. Yet you had no problem joining in and unmercifully criticizing former President Bush over his deployment of troops to Iraq even though he sought and recieved Congressional approval for that action. That's fine but if you want to talk principles versus ideology....you just failed.
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11Bravo
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:53 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 171):
So in other words you still cannot find anyway to defend the Presidents actions versus his own words about his predecessors use of the military.Yet you had no problem joining in and unmercifully criticizing former President Bush over his deployment of troops to Iraq even though he sought and recieved Congressional approval for that action.


That seems like a very simple-minded view to suggest that one must support ALL uses of military force, or condemn ALL uses of military force. If you supported one war, then you MUST support all wars. That's a ridiculous suggestion. The world is just a bit more complicated than that.
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dxing
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:44 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 172):
That seems like a very simple-minded view to suggest that one must support ALL uses of military force, or condemn ALL uses of military force. If you supported one war, then you MUST support all wars. That's a ridiculous suggestion. The world is just a bit more complicated than that.

That is changing the subject. No one is saying that. That President did however make it clear that Congress should be given a chance to approve or disapprove of the militaries use prior to deployment with very few exceptions. In this case the President did not bother to follow his own words. Therefore he has left himself open yet again to the charge that he is all "do as I say, not as I do". In his speech to the nation about Libya he used the words "I could not". Well according to what he said in 2007 in the Senate, the military is not the "Presidents" to use without Congressional approval unless an attack is underway or very imminent. That is a lack of consistency.
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windy95
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:49 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 171):
So in other words you still cannot find anyway to defend the Presidents actions versus his own words about his predecessors use of the military. Yet you had no problem joining in and unmercifully criticizing former President Bush over his deployment of troops to Iraq even though he sought and recieved Congressional approval for that action. That's fine but if you want to talk principles versus ideology....you just failed

Of course there was no ideology from the left when Bush was President. It was all about moral code and principle back then.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 172):
That seems like a very simple-minded view to suggest that one must support ALL uses of military force, or condemn ALL uses of military force. If you supported one war, then you MUST support all wars. That's a ridiculous suggestion. The world is just a bit more complicated than that.

At least you admit this was a war. Not a kinetic military action.

The Chickens.....have come home to roost for the Constitutional Scholar in Chief.

Quote:
“The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.” — Sen. Obama on December 20, 2007
 
GDB
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:01 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 131):
That's been as clear as the light of day to me. Glad to hear others see it as well.

Bumper sticker warriors 2001-2009, bumper sticker peaceniks 2009-
We've already seen this with Afghanistan, before 2009 woe betide anyone 'unpatriotic' enough to dare question the use of military force!

Quoting mt99 (Reply 150):
And whats wrong with that? Are you looking for him to fail?

Yep, the effects on stability in the region, US prestige (usually a very important factor for ex Hawks), never mind Libya civilians, don't feature in this torturous debates, well not since 2009 anyway.

Needs boiling down I think.
Crisis erupts in Libya, after the wholly unexpected falls of other (though rather more Western friendly) regimes in the region, discord in others.
Gaddafi, true to form, does not do things by half, (those Mirage F.1 pilots defected to Malta at the start since they might have accepted attacking armed rebels, not though as ordered, unleashing 30mm cannon and rockets on demonstrating crowds).

Rebellion blows up, some counties call for a NFZ, US not keen, all the legality issues, over stretched forces, it's probably lack of effect on the ground.

Rebellion gets in trouble, Gaddafi and sons make blood curdling threats of revenge against cities like Benghazi, here the dynamic in the White House shifts.
Hillary Clinton is sensitive to what the lack of concerted Western action in Rwanda in 1994 did to her husband's legacy, across the pond, leaders who had been calling for - and somewhat rebuffed for it - military action seem also prepared to not only contribute militarily, but politically too.
In getting a meaningful resolution through the UN, doing so would remove another obstacle, lack of legitimacy.
(Real legitimacy, not the highly partisan stuff on here).

The prospect of a 24 hour rolling news/Internet viewed massacre, potentially being stopped by a resolution allowing protection of citizens as well as a NFZ, has the odd situation of a more hawkish State Department compared to the Defence Dept.

In the end, that outweighed the very real, still apparent risks, that intervention brings.
Now the US is largely moving aside from the core military tasks in Libya.
Though the UK could lob some Tomahawks and Storm Shadow missiles, as well as France too with the latter, having a USN ex Trident sub packed with all those Tomahawks, as well as some other unique to the US capabilities as B-2 bombers, would enable the take-down of the (remaining?) Libyan Air Defence system very quickly.
How effective it would have otherwise been against Western aircraft we did not get to find out, that is the point of doing it!

Even so, the situation was so desperate around Benghazi, that even with the passing of the Resolution 1973 (which happens to be a considerable triumph for US diplomacy considering Russia and China's usual stance), Gaddafi's forces could still carry out a massacre in the window of time they had left before and during the take-down of the AD system started.
Which is why Sarkozy launched the French air-strikes on day 1 in close support of Benghazi, prior to the main effort of suppressing defences started.
(He has a lot of ground to make up in that region, having called both Tunisia and to an extent Egypt so wrongly).
He told President Obama and PM Cameron after his aircraft were in the air , however that's another irony in all this, usually acting first, telling allies after, is from the other side of the Pond!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:25 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 175):
Bumper sticker warriors 2001-2009, bumper sticker peaceniks 2009-
We've already seen this with Afghanistan, before 2009 woe betide anyone 'unpatriotic' enough to dare question the use of military force!

  

Same as the ones who used to say you "disrespect the office" if you call the president anything other than President, but now use all sorts of names to refer to Obama. It's all just a bunch of white noise now from these neo-cons turned libertarians until the next wind blows.
International Homo of Mystery
 
dxing
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RE: US/Libya Not At War?...says White House

Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:18 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 175):
Bumper sticker warriors 2001-2009, bumper sticker peaceniks 2009-
We've already seen this with Afghanistan, before 2009 woe betide anyone 'unpatriotic' enough to dare question the use of military force!

Since he was talking about me I'd like you to point out where I have said we didn't have any business in Libya helping with the no fly zone. My point is and has been that if he expected President Bush to get Congressional approval for military action outside of an actual or imminent attack on the country (which he did) then President Obama should hold himself to the same standard. I don't see anything wrong with that do you?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 176):
Same as the ones who used to say you "disrespect the office" if you call the president anything other than President, but now use all sorts of names to refer to Obama. It's all just a bunch of white noise now from these neo-cons turned libertarians until the next wind blows.

I would challange you to find a post where I have used anything other than accepted and proper titles for the President.
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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

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Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos